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Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3



 
 
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  #521  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:39 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Re: Hagrid, I presume we won't be shown him begging that nobody hurt the poor old giant spiders. Because I found that pretty exasperating (not to say amusing), in the book. It was so ... clueless, on his part.
It always seemed to me that he was yelling at the spiders not to hurt the students and they did leave after he leaped into their midst to carry him off to Voldemort. I would have liked that to be included it because it was a terrifying moment to think that Hagrid was going to be killed by the spiders - and a terrible irony because he was the one who brought Aragog a wife so they could have children.

Then again, I'm terrified of spiders an wouldn't be able to look at the screen while they were there so maybe it's best that they didn't.

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The moment when he carries Harry is very moving and it's good that's in.
Definitely. Hagrid's reaction was heartbreaking and I'm glad they kept that in. But is there any explanation for how Hagrid ended up in the forest? I haven't seen anything regarding him fighting or being captured.


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  #522  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:43 pm
BorisKelpman  Male.gif BorisKelpman is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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From what I have read, this sounds like a very confusing sequence. Some reviews say Harry's flying - others say he's being carried - others say it looks like Harry and Voldemort have merged into one being. It just sounds weird to me. And I was never a fan of the whole smoky flying effect anyway - are they supposed to be on fire or something? It's just one of those bizarre decisions they made with these films that I don't get and I don't really like.
That seems to primarily be because the effect was unfinished, perhaps even moreso than the others throughout the battle. From the majority of the reports that I have read, not one has explicity made it clear that Harry himself is flying. Rather, it looks like he is being carried, and his proximity to Voldemort gives the impression of a "merge" when it's probably because of the rough effects - Harry is simply close to Voldemort and is being thrown around in the smoke, but he is not actually capable of flight himself.

Whether or not you are a fan of the "smoke form" is irrelevant (although they are clearly not "on fire" - it's a visual representation of their allegiance and is more closely comparable to Snape's ability to fly in the book, apparently taught to him by Voldemort, only the black hue is meant to be a visual cue) to the question of whether Harry has the capability himself. It would appear that he most definitely does not.

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In this case, it's also completely unbelievable to me because Harry was never a match for Voldemort in a duel. Harry was always going to win on some kind of technicality because nothing else would have been believable, IMO.
He ultimately does still win on a technicality. It doesn't seem to be established that Harry is, magically speaking, a match for Voldemort - he appears to be simply eluding him and using his wits to survive. As Dan said, it's physical until the last moment, not magical.


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  #523  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:43 pm
LaDonna  Female.gif LaDonna is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
Do you mean before or after his "death"? Before would make the entire Snape subplot superfluous. Why have Snape tough it out at the school, give Harry the memories, and die horribly when Harry could just run it all by Albus' portait? After is bad because we need to know what Harry is doing as he is doing it, not in retrospect.



Really? In the book, Lily, Lupin, James, and Sirius seemed all for it.



Because Harry's action is not 100% emotion, there is a thought process there too. Whereas Rupert making some heartbreaking expression, displaying some dejected body language, or what have you, is.



I can think of another reason. This decision by Harry is THE key decision of the series. We need to be sure why he is doing it, and we need to be sure he is right. (Heck, I even know book readers who equated Harry to a young suicide bomber and Albus to a terrorist leader who recruits same. Or who attribute Harry's acquiescence to the plan to Harry's just being "depressed" and "tired of it all" and losing his will to fight.) Having Harry enunciate his reasons -" I am the last Horcrux, I am the only one who can end it", to someone, helps with the first. And I think it is more meaningful if the someone is someone Harry and the audience know (why would Harry be making such confidences at random to the ghost of Helena Ravenclaw? )

From the reviews I have read (all the ones linked here) I can't tell if the movie gets across Harry's (and Snape's) sense of betrayal by Albus to the audience. I also can't tell how ambiguously or otherwise it conveys Snape's feelings for Harry (independent of Lily). But we might very well be looking at a situation where, from the audience point of view, two characters who don't give a fig for Harry, are telling him he has to die. If this is indeed where the audience is in this moment, having Hermione state she also suspected it, gives us someone with the same smarts credentials, someone the audience is equally used to having her facts straight, as Severus and Albus, but with impeccable "loves Harry" credentials, confirming the facts of the situation. In the book, we have Harry's extended internal thoughts about this serving these same functions.



She suspects, and hopes it is not so. How different is this from what Albus does in the book, even (or perhaps especially) after he has grown to love Harry?



She did not even give him a hug, that I can recall, when she sent him through to face "Snape" in PS/SS. I don't see how this is changing the character. All three of them are (again) acting under (what they believe to be, in the first case) exigent circumstances, and all three of them are already dealing with the very recent deaths of loved ones, and the possibility that many more of same will be dying soon.



"Worse" actually, since Albus is guessing Harry will not die at all.



If it is the right choice for him, it is the right choice for his friends to allow it, I would say... (hence, worse in quotes. I don't agree this is bad.)

Is it well done? Since I was not in the test screening...ask me in July.



Which will make the movie in this one respect...exactly like the books.

Why would speaking to DD's portrait about death make Snape's entire subplot unneeded? I think if Harry emerged from Snape's memories and then spoke with DD's portrait for 30 seconds they could have gotten what they wanted without having Ron and Hermione let Harry walk to his death. And TPT only point isn't to tell Harry he's a horcrux. That's something important that Harry has to know, and changes the fate of Harry, but if the only point was to let Harry know that than Snape's life memories wouldn't have been included at all. TPT redeems Snape, clears up Snape's actions from the beginning of the series, showed Harry DD's role in his life, etc.

As for the four ghosts being all for Harry walking to death, then you've just proved my point. They weren't alive. If any of those four were alive, I do not believe they would have supported Harry walking to his death. No way. We're supposed to see that "the dead" know more than we do about certain things, and see fate in a different way. You could believe that they knew Harry wouldn't end up dead from this, and that's why they helped him walk to his death. Anyone living who knew Harry wouldn't have let him walk to his death. The book showed that over and over. It got to where Harry was annoyed at his loved ones for always trying to block him and protect him.


Ron's facial expression is supposed to convey his entire feelings about Harry and his relationship, what Harry means to him, and the fact that Harry's about to die. That's a lot to leave down to facial acting. And for Harry, we don't have to hear him tell Ron and Hermione that he must die. We just don't. That's not the only choice. There are many other people or things he could have said that, too. Ravenclaw's ghost and DD's portrait are the two I think would have been appropriate subs, but someone else mentioned having Harry mention his thoughts about it to DD while in the King's Cross scene. That would have saved time and allowed us to hear Harry's inner monologue on choosing death and why he's doing it. Obviously, if you think telling Ron and Hermione is the right thing to do, then we just have a fundamental disagreement on it, because I think it was the wrong thing for the film to do.

If you want someone the audience knows for Harry to say "I'm the last horcrux, I have to end it" then DD at King's Cross or his portrait qualifies for that. And it's not a negative to have people debating Harry's choice in the book, and what caused it. That's what's wonderful about novels and stories in general, we can debate what's between the lines.

I completely disagree that having Hermione say she knew is needed to show someone who loves Harry agreeing that he needs to do this. It's Harry's choice, and having Hermione (his best friend) tell him that it's true he must sacrifice himself takes away from Harry's choice in my opinion. I like that Harry didn't want anyone to know what he was doing, and that he knew they wouldn't accept his choice. And by having him speak to DD or the portrait, we could have heard Harry say why he was making the choice, without having the audience need Harry to hear it from Hermione to let us know it was the right choice.

The difference between Hermione and Albus, and the film Hermione telling Harry she suspected he was the last horcrux, is that they're relationship to Harry is completely different, and they are different people. DD's decision, whether right, wrong or cold, came from 150 years of magic, lessons learned, and knowledge of people. His feeling as though Harry was a horcrux, and trying to wait to tell him until the last possible moment, was something only Albus's character in the book could have done. Even Snape was shocked that DD's plan was to have Harry sacrifice himself. If Snape is shocked by this, why would Hermione be okay with it? Hermione and Ron showed repeatedly that they weren't going to let Harry get killed, and they weren't going to let him turn himself in. That's different than DD, and DD's plan for ending V.

In SS when she sent Harry through to meet "Snape", she didn't think he was going to die. She said "Be careful", indicating she thought he'd survive. This is completely different than allowing Harry to sacrifice himself at the end of DH.

And you're right, it is worse of Hermione and Ron to allow Harry to meet V, when DD at least thinks Harry has a good chance of surviving it. Thank you for that. And to me, this is the point. I don't think "Ron" and "Hermione" from the Harry Potter series (books or film) would allow Harry to sacrifice himself, and so I have a big problem with the film choosing to show Hermione and Ron doing just that.

Just because Fred just died, doesn't mean it's okay for Ron to feel like Harry has to sacrifice himself in order to stop V. In the book, Fred died, and still Ron didn't want Harry to sacrifice himself. They're concern was finding a different way to end V instead of Harry going to face him. I don't think it's okay to assume that Ron was thinking "Hey, Fred died. I don't want anyone else to die, so Harry you need to die". By saying "it's the right choice for Harry so it's the right choice for his friends to let him go", you're taking away from Harry's choice. He didn't sacrifice himself because his loved ones thought he should. He did it because he trusted DD that the only way to stop V is to sacrifice himself. He wanted to do it without his friends finding out, because he knew they would try to stop him. A part of him wanted to show himself to them because he wanted someone to stop him, but he was strong enough to keep going in privacy. I think that the film and the book build up to that point by showing what Ron and Hermione are willing to sacrifice and go through to help Harry. Therefore I believe it goes against their character for them to agree Harry has to sacrifice himself.

As for James not being shown to have changed from his jerk days in school to Lily's husband, it's not just like the books. We at least had Sirius tell us in book 5 that James had changed and wasn't a bully anymore by his seventh year, except concerning Snape but he did that without Lily knowing. That's something at least, but the film sounds like they don't give any indication that James changed from school bully, so I think it will come across as though Lily chose the bad boy over the shy kid. I'm not a big James fan anyways, but at least in the book we hear that James changed (at the very least in front of Lily) before she ever dated him. I love Lily, and I just fear that it will come across making her look bad in some small way for ending up with the jerk as opposed to the shy boy on the sidelines.

And I would remind everyone that I'm giving my opinion here, and not claiming that my assumptions and evaluations are facts. I realize that there are only a few of us who feel a problem with Hermione and Ron sending Harry off to his death, but we're allowed to explain our opinions if we choose and I don't think this is a subject where fact in who's right or wrong can be found, because it relies on interpretation and basic belief's on the subject.



Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
I guess Dobby's killing Wormtail at the Malfoys was too subtle.
If that was supposed to be his death scene, than yes it was. He looked frozen, not dead, and I don't think most of the audience (no matter who they were) would think Dobby would kill.



Last edited by LaDonna; April 4th, 2011 at 5:46 pm.
  #524  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:53 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by wilson84 View Post
I read that Narcissa doesn't lie to voldemort about Harry, is that true?
She did lie to Voldemort. Actually, I read that she was the one to check on Harry and just assume that the rest will play out like the book. It seems natural that the filmmaker won't change this part, or else how can Voldemort be convinced that Harry is dead?


  #525  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:55 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

I think it comes down to the issue of how the moment is framed for not only the audience, but also the characters. Even if it's unmistakable that Ron and Hermione know that Harry intends to sacrifice himself (or perhaps it only seems like he is going to confront Voldemort, which for some would be tantamount to sacrifice, I suppose), I believe it emphasizes the purity of his choice, the ultimate inevitablity of that choice having to be made by him, and that rather than validating it, they are accepting it, just like the audience is coming to accept the moment themselves. After all that Harry has shown himself to be capable of with the Horcruxes, they know that there is no other way - if Harry is the Horcrux, then Harry is the Horcrux and there is no conceivable way around that.

There is a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death. They don't have to accept Harry's choice and validate it, but they do have to understand it, even against their better judgment and morals. It's a testament to what they have been through that they start to understand that there has to always be a price for victory. They know that they have sacrificed for Harry - and, morally speaking, they have to make the ultimate sacrifice for Harry in the end.

Quote:
In SS when she sent Harry through to meet "Snape", she didn't think he was going to die. She said "Be careful", indicating she thought he'd survive. This is completely different than allowing Harry to sacrifice himself at the end of DH.
Even when they thought it was simply Snape, he was known to be an adult who was vastly more experienced than Harry. Hermione let him go on the condition that he be careful, yes, but his survival was not necessarily a guarantee even then because he was going up against a fully-grown wizard who was, what's more, thought to be an ally of Voldemort - and who, without luck and the assistance of others, could have killed Harry more than once.


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  #526  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:56 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

LaDonna: I also have a slight fear that Lily might come across badly, but no one has seemed to have that kind of reaction. So my guess is that she doesn't come across that way. I feel there would have been some sort of reaction from the viewers if she did.

I think the films do indicate that James seemed to be thought well of by others in the series, so to me it seems like he comes across about the same as he does in the books. Though I do think the absence of a SWM type of scene does water things down a bit when it comes to the severity of what he was doing. And the same goes for Snape, but at least we know he joined up with the Death Eaters, and we might know he relayed the prophecy too. Those things are his most severe mistakes. Not sure we see the same from James.

It's hard to say for sure because this seems to be a very layered sequence and jam packed with information, so it may have been tough for the viewers to remember and explain everything that was depicted in it.

All IMO, of course.


  #527  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:57 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by ThaiHPFan View Post
She did lie to Voldemort. Actually, I read that she was the one to check on Harry and just assume that the rest will play out like the book. It seems natural that the filmmaker won't change this part, or else how can Voldemort be convinced that Harry is dead?
I think someone said that she does tell V that Harry is dead, but she doesn't whisper to Harry or anything.


  #528  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:57 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by ThaiHPFan View Post
She did lie to Voldemort. Actually, I read that she was the one to check on Harry and just assume that the rest will play out like the book. It seems natural that the filmmaker won't change this part, or else how can Voldemort be convinced that Harry is dead?
Agree. Narcissa says that line, she just doesn't ask Harry about Draco.


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  #529  
Old April 4th, 2011, 5:59 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post

There is a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death.
I completely agree. I also think there is a difference between them callously tossing him towards Voldemort, and understanding that there is no other way and he has made the choice on his own after finally having all the information that he needs (or so he thinks). I think they understand that if Harry hides and protects himself, it will be at the continued expense of the WW. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, as the Vulcans might say.


  #530  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:02 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

I agree with your point, Boush, and would also like to add that Ron and Hermione understand that there is no longer any way to "hide and protect themselves" after seeing what the battle has come to. They have fought for Harry, and now they have to fight against their better instincts, what they would rather do, and understand that information comes at a price, and that price may have to be someone they love.

They don't callously send Harry away, nor do they necessarily validate his choice - but they do understand its place. From what we have seen, the expression on Hermione's face alone shows that she still doesn't want to accept that it is true, and maybe Harry doesn't want to either - but it still emphasizes, above all else, that it is Harry's decision and that they have to accept what is right, not what is easy for themselves.


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Last edited by BorisKelpman; April 4th, 2011 at 6:05 pm.
  #531  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:07 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post
I think it comes down to the issue of how the moment is framed for not only the audience, but also the characters. Even if it's unmistakable that Ron and Hermione know that Harry intends to sacrifice himself (or perhaps it only seems like he is going to confront Voldemort, which for some would be tantamount to sacrifice, I suppose), I believe it emphasizes the purity of his choice, the ultimate inevitablity of that choice having to be made by him, and that rather than validating it, they are accepting it, just like the audience is coming to accept the moment themselves. After all that Harry has shown himself to be capable of with the Horcruxes, they know that there is no other way - if Harry is the Horcrux, then Harry is the Horcrux and there is no conceivable way around that.

There is a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death.



Even when they thought it was simply Snape, he was known to be an adult who was vastly more experienced than Harry. Hermione let him go on the condition that he be careful, yes, but his survival was not necessarily a guarantee even then because he was going up against a fully-grown wizard who was, what's more, thought to be an ally of Voldemort - and who, without luck and the assistance of others, could have killed Harry more than once.
I disagree. I felt SS showed, both in the book and the film, that Hermione thought Harry might survive, and she believed that not because she thought Harry was as good as a full grown wizard, but that because fate was to have Harry be the one to face V. By saying "Be careful", that indicates she wanted him to survive and thought he might.


As for there being a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death, I don't think it there is in regard to what Hermione and Ron would do. Stopping him means trying to save him, and accepting it means allowing him to die. I maintain my opinion that having Ron and hermione accept his choice is wrong.


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Originally Posted by boushh View Post
LaDonna: I also have a slight fear that Lily might come across badly, but no one has seemed to have that kind of reaction. So my guess is that she doesn't come across that way. I feel there would have been some sort of reaction from the viewers if she did.

I think the films do indicate that James seemed to be thought well of by others in the series, so to me it seems like he comes across about the same as he does in the books. Though I do think the absence of a SWM type of scene does water things down a bit when it comes to the severity of what he was doing. And the same goes for Snape, but at least we know he joined up with the Death Eaters, and we might know he relayed the prophecy too. Those things are his most severe mistakes. Not sure we see the same from James.

It's hard to say for sure because this seems to be a very layered sequence and jam packed with information, so it may have been tough for the viewers to remember and explain everything that was depicted in it.

All IMO, of course.
That's true I guess. None of them came out seeing Lily as doing that, so perhaps how they portray it makes sense. I can't wait to find out whether it does or not! And I haven't heard anyone say how old the "James acting like a jerk at Hogwarts" scene from TPT is as far as Lily, James, and Snape go. It may be they look 11-13, and so then if we see them the next time being adults, that would be such a huge gap of time it wouldn't influence the audience.


  #532  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:34 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post
That seems to primarily be because the effect was unfinished, perhaps even moreso than the others throughout the battle. From the majority of the reports that I have read, not one has explicity made it clear that Harry himself is flying. Rather, it looks like he is being carried, and his proximity to Voldemort gives the impression of a "merge" when it's probably because of the rough effects - Harry is simply close to Voldemort and is being thrown around in the smoke, but he is not actually capable of flight himself.

Whether or not you are a fan of the "smoke form" is irrelevant (although they are clearly not "on fire" - it's a visual representation of their allegiance and is more closely comparable to Snape's ability to fly in the book, apparently taught to him by Voldemort, only the black hue is meant to be a visual cue) to the question of whether Harry has the capability himself. It would appear that he most definitely does not.
The fact that I am not a fan of the smoky flying effect is relevant to whether or not I like it - simply put I don't and I'm not ever going to. I don't care what they were trying to accomplish visually - I think it looks terrible and it detracts from the films. I judge these films on what I like and what I want to see - not what other people like or what the filmmakers were trying to do. Whether or not I like the end result is all that matters to me when choosing whether or not I want to spend my money on a movie ticket.

Likewise, I don't really care if they make it look like Harry can fly on his own or if Voldemort is carrying him - I've seen both descriptions in reviews, but it doesn't really matter to me which it is. Either way, I see this as a pointless change from the book that will only be an unbelievable, boring, drawn out action sequence that serves no purpose to the story.

Quote:
He ultimately does still win on a technicality. It doesn't seem to be established that Harry is, magically speaking, a match for Voldemort - he appears to be simply eluding him and using his wits to survive. As Dan said, it's physical until the last moment, not magical.
Which only makes it even more pointless and unbelievable, IMO. Long, drawn out action sequences that serve no purpose to the story are boring to me - I don't like them. They should have stuck to the book for the final duel, IMO.

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Originally Posted by LaDonna View Post
I disagree. I felt SS showed, both in the book and the film, that Hermione thought Harry might survive, and she believed that not because she thought Harry was as good as a full grown wizard, but that because fate was to have Harry be the one to face V. By saying "Be careful", that indicates she wanted him to survive and thought he might.

As for there being a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death, I don't think it there is in regard to what Hermione and Ron would do. Stopping him means trying to save him, and accepting it means allowing him to die. I maintain my opinion that having Ron and hermione accept his choice is wrong.
That's a good point. I do think Ron and Hermione would have eventually accepted that there was no other choice if Harry had told them, but I agree that they would not accept that easily or without argument. Hermione would want to be sure - to try and find another way. Ron would question if Harry was absolutely certain. And neither of them would want to let him go through that alone.

I still think it would have made more sense to just have Harry run into Neville and tell him Nagini had to be killed. I can't say for certain until I see the film, but I'm not sure this scene will work very well.


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All posts are my opinions and interpretations based on reading the Harry Potter books and interviews with J.K. Rowling.

  #533  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:43 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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The fact that I am not a fan of the smoky flying effect is relevant to whether or not I like it - simply put I don't and I'm not ever going to. I don't care what they were trying to accomplish visually - I think it looks terrible and it detracts from the films. I judge these films on what I like and what I want to see - not what other people like or what the filmmakers were trying to do. Whether or not I like the end result is all that matters to me when choosing whether or not I want to spend my money on a movie ticket.

Likewise, I don't really care if they make it look like Harry can fly on his own or if Voldemort is carrying him - I've seen both descriptions in reviews, but it doesn't really matter to me which it is. Either way, I see this as a pointless change from the book that will only be an unbelievable, boring, drawn out action sequence that serves no purpose to the story.
Meesha, I don't think it's relevant unless you are mutating this argument into something that it initially was not. You said that Harry was apparently "flying by osmosis", implying that he obtains the ability himself - but nowhere is this made conclusive or explicit, and I gave an explanation to the contrary that showed how the form, as established in the movie, has parallels to Side-by-Side Apparation in the books. Then you said that you don't like the concept of the form anyway, which has little to do with the central matter of whether or not it makes sense for Harry to have learned it himself in the context of the film, not just for its stylistic merits. My point about said merits stylistically was an aside, not the core of the matter.

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Which only makes it even more pointless and unbelievable, IMO.
Unbelievable? I'll contest that, because nowhere does it appear to be evident that Harry turns into the Wizarding He-Man. Indeed, his ability to use his wits to ensure that he survives until the very last moment - when the final Horcrux falls - is perfectly believable if it's established that Harry is only succeeding just barely. All the while, Voldemort is using magic - magic that doesn't appear to work for him! - and Harry is using simple Muggle tactics that Voldemort does also not understand. Every second that Harry eludes him is an insult to Voldemort's supposed powers, now waning, and then, ultimately, the final insult is a technicality.

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I disagree. I felt SS showed, both in the book and the film, that Hermione thought Harry might survive, and she believed that not because she thought Harry was as good as a full grown wizard, but that because fate was to have Harry be the one to face V. By saying "Be careful", that indicates she wanted him to survive and thought he might.
Why can't this also apply to Harry going to the forest? Indeed, if Harry holds on to his convictions so strongly, then it would also appear that "fate" has made him the Horcrux, and the only logical conclusion is that Harry, as said Horcrux and therefore directly tied to Voldemort's very being, must ultimately be the one to ensure his undoing through his role as one of the last standing Horcruxes.

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As for there being a difference between accepting Harry's choice and sending him off to his death, I don't think it there is in regard to what Hermione and Ron would do. Stopping him means trying to save him, and accepting it means allowing him to die.
"Sending him off to his death" implies a disregard that makes Hermione and Ron look callous, uncaring, simple, as if they are forcing Harry to make the choice. But they are doing no such thing, and if it appears that "saving him" is mutually exclusive to what has to be done, then they are both accepting the choice and, even if its implications may "allow" Harry to die, they are not promoting the idea that he should be sent off to his death - through their acceptance they are to an extent, yes, but the ultimate thing is the acceptance. Saving him does not have to mean that they steadfastly maintain their belief that Harry shouldn't go, and even in their last moments together, they may still think that Harry could have a chance, that he's demonstrated so much to them that he may not be beyond saving through his way in the end...

EDIT:

As an aside, have any of the test screeners talked about the scene of Filch in the dungeons? I had an idea, considering that one of them mentioned McGonagall sending the Slytherins to the dungeons - Filch locks them down there, and one of them tries to escape, hence the explosion as he's walking away.


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Last edited by BorisKelpman; April 4th, 2011 at 6:53 pm.
  #534  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:56 pm
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post
EDIT:

As an aside, have any of the test screeners talked about the scene of Filch in the dungeons? I had an idea, considering that one of them mentioned McGonagall sending the Slytherins to the dungeons - Filch locks them down there, and one of them tries to escape, hence the explosion as he's walking away.
I don't think any of them are left in the dungeon after the explosion. I'm also pretty sure I saw some Gryfinddor colors in the crowd but that could be my memory.


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  #535  
Old April 4th, 2011, 6:59 pm
faithy  Female.gif faithy is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

Woah, interesting thread and an even more interesting 'Potter Weekend'. Despite promising to myself that I would not spoil the film beforehand, I am glad that I have however, for I may have ended up screaming "Yates!" or "Kloves!" in the middle of the screening - which I don't think many would be too happy about - if that was the first I had heard about the drastic 'Forest again' scene change.
At the moment I just can't see how it will work, how on earth can they expect the audience to accept 'ok, so his two best mates are just gonna let him go and snuff it'. Especially the fact that Ron only says "Bye"... What? I know that I shouldn't judge too soon as I am sure that Rupert will pull it off. I just don't understand how Kloves could give the Trio such a dramatic character change in this scene. There is no way Ron and Hermione would just let Harry walk to his death that much is evident from the previous books/films. And it was emphasied at least twice that Harry could not say good bye to anyone that 'this was a journey that he had to take in his own' or what ever it was. I think that I am just concerned about this scene as it is by far one of my favourites of the series due to hiw emotional it is, Harry's iner monoluge gets me eveytime.
Anyway, enough of that I don't want to seem negative about the film as a lot of what I have heard has got me so excited and glad. TBH the lines that I was praying they would keep in are especially the "Does it hurt?" line... gah that will get me going in the cinema. TPT sounds amazing! I'm so glad that we will get to see Halloween flash backs and Snape holding Lilly's body sounds heartwrenching. I'm not too worried about Snapes death scene location change as it still sounds amazing and Alan Rickman is such a fantastic actor that I feel content with the scene.

On the whole July 15 can't come sooner


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  #536  
Old April 4th, 2011, 7:02 pm
BorisKelpman  Male.gif BorisKelpman is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

I suppose both sides won't likely come to an understanding on whether or not Ron and Hermione are just letting Harry "walk away and die" (I interpret their reactions differently and think it layers their friendship), and whether or not Harry's conversation only serves to emphasize how singular his choice is. It is an interesting debate in spite of that and I am sure, even after the film, it is a scene that will be heavily discussed.

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I don't think any of them are left in the dungeon after the explosion. I'm also pretty sure I saw some Gryfinddor colors in the crowd but that could be my memory.
What puzzles me still is that Filch, after apparently "feeling" the explosion from behind him, appears to smile - he's always had somewhat of a soft spot for the Slytherins, so I'm guessing that he's pleased to see them try to escape?


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Old April 4th, 2011, 7:07 pm
LaDonna  Female.gif LaDonna is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post

Why can't this also apply to Harry going to the forest? Indeed, if Harry holds on to his convictions so strongly, then it would also appear that "fate" has made him the Horcrux, and the only logical conclusion is that Harry, as said Horcrux and therefore directly tied to Voldemort's very being, must ultimately be the one to ensure his undoing through his role as one of the last standing Horcruxes.



"Sending him off to his death" implies a disregard that makes Hermione and Ron look callous, uncaring, simple, as if they are forcing Harry to make the choice. But they are doing no such thing, and if it appears that "saving him" is mutually exclusive to what has to be done, then they are both accepting the choice and, even if its implications may "allow" Harry to die, they are not promoting the idea that he should be sent off to his death - through their acceptance they are to an extent, yes, but the ultimate thing is the acceptance. Saving him does not have to mean that they steadfastly maintain their belief that Harry shouldn't go, and even in their last moments together, they may still think that Harry could have a chance, that he's demonstrated so much to them that he may not be beyond saving through his way in the end...

EDIT:

As an aside, have any of the test screeners talked about the scene of Filch in the dungeons? I had an idea, considering that one of them mentioned McGonagall sending the Slytherins to the dungeons - Filch locks them down there, and one of them tries to escape, hence the explosion as he's walking away.
I've already explained why Hermione's belief's about Harry's fate doesn't apply to Harry's choice in book 7. Hermione felt that Harry's fate was to face V in SS, and she let's him go on alone and says be careful, indicating she thinks he will survive the encounter. Him going to face V at the end of DH may also be his fate (in Hermione's opinion) but the difference is that she "knows" he won't survive. That's a pretty big difference.

Harry, Ron and Hermione all think that Harry is going to meet V in the forest, and that V is going to kill Harry, thus killing the horcrux inside of him. They think that is going to cause his real death. So, Hermione accepting that Harry is going to do this, even if she thinks it's Harry's fate, is very different than in SS, because she indicated in SS that she believed he'd survive that, whereas in DH they're showing her to believe that he won't survive. I'd say that's a very important difference here.

You may think my saying "Sending him off to his death" is a negative way of looking at it and makes Ron and Hermione sound uncaring. However, that is exactly what they are doing, sending him off to his death. He is saying "I've got to meet V to get rid of the Horcrux and I'll end up dying", and they let him leave to go do just that, is sending him off to his death. That's my problem with it. I don't think it's right to show Hermione and Ron being okay with that. You can think it's a noble thing for them to accept Harry's fate, and come to appreciate Harry's choice being the only answer, but that doesn't mean they're off the hook for failing to stop him, as I think they would have tried to do (and Harry thought that as well) in the book. So, you can think it's not a bad thing for them to do because of their outlook on it and they're realization that it's the only way to stop V, but I disagree fundamentally about that. I think it's a bad thing for them to have Hermione and Ron know what Harry is leaving to do, and yet not try to stop him at all. Whether they let him go unhappily or not, they still let him go, and I think that's "messed up".

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Originally Posted by faithy View Post
Woah, interesting thread and an even more interesting 'Potter Weekend'. Despite promising to myself that I would not spoil the film beforehand, I am glad that I have however, for I may have ended up screaming "Yates!" or "Kloves!" in the middle of the screening - which I don't think many would be too happy about - if that was the first I had heard about the drastic 'Forest again' scene change.
At the moment I just can't see how it will work, how on earth can they expect the audience to accept 'ok, so his two best mates are just gonna let him go and snuff it'. Especially the fact that Ron only says "Bye"... What? I know that I shouldn't judge too soon as I am sure that Rupert will pull it off. I just don't understand how Kloves could give the Trio such a dramatic character change in this scene. There is no way Ron and Hermione would just let Harry walk to his death that much is evident from the previous books/films. And it was emphasied at least twice that Harry could not say good bye to anyone that 'this was a journey that he had to take in his own' or what ever it was. I think that I am just concerned about this scene as it is by far one of my favourites of the series due to hiw emotional it is, Harry's iner monoluge gets me eveytime.
Anyway, enough of that I don't want to seem negative about the film as a lot of what I have heard has got me so excited and glad. TBH the lines that I was praying they would keep in are especially the "Does it hurt?" line... gah that will get me going in the cinema. TPT sounds amazing! I'm so glad that we will get to see Halloween flash backs and Snape holding Lilly's body sounds heartwrenching. I'm not too worried about Snapes death scene location change as it still sounds amazing and Alan Rickman is such a fantastic actor that I feel content with the scene.

On the whole July 15 can't come sooner
That's exactly how I feel, on both counts. Even though I don't think it's right to show Ron and Hermione letting Harry walk off, I'm still super excited about the film and can't wait to see it!

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post
I suppose both sides won't likely come to an understanding on whether or not Ron and Hermione are just letting Harry "walk away and die" (I interpret their reactions differently and think it layers their friendship), and whether or not Harry's conversation only serves to emphasize how singular his choice is. It is an interesting debate in spite of that and I am sure, even after the film, it is a scene that will be heavily discussed.



What puzzles me still is that Filch, after apparently "feeling" the explosion from behind him, appears to smile - he's always had somewhat of a soft spot for the Slytherins, so I'm guessing that he's pleased to see them try to escape?
I agree with you, on both counts, as well. I think it will be a discussed scene after the film comes out, because I think it will come down to whether people think it's a positive change from the book or a negative change from the book.

As for the Filch thing, I have no clue what that could be about. He does seem to smile after the explosion, and I can't see them adding that during the battle for Hogwarts if it's slytherin students he just locked up.


  #538  
Old April 4th, 2011, 7:13 pm
Carne  Male.gif Carne is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by BorisKelpman View Post
What puzzles me still is that Filch, after apparently "feeling" the explosion from behind him, appears to smile - he's always had somewhat of a soft spot for the Slytherins, so I'm guessing that he's pleased to see them try to escape?
I think that's a part of the beginning, when we get to know how Hogwarts is run with Snape in charge.


  #539  
Old April 4th, 2011, 7:15 pm
LaDonna  Female.gif LaDonna is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

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Originally Posted by Carne View Post
I think that's a part of the beginning, when we get to know how Hogwarts is run with Snape in charge.
I guess that could be right. But why would they show the slytherin students locked in a dungeon, and Filch being the one to do it?


  #540  
Old April 4th, 2011, 7:15 pm
BorisKelpman  Male.gif BorisKelpman is offline
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part Two [incl. SPOILERS] v.3

Possibly, but the descriptions of the opening have only described Snape watching the students from a tower in a shot that lingers for a moment, unless there's a brief little scene with Filch before it transitions to Shell Cottage.


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