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  #681  
Old March 6th, 2012, 9:28 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx View Post
The resemblance was what gave me the idea. And resemblance doesn't mean a clear paralel between the brothers and Snape/Tom/Harry. It's not about the skin tones. After all, don't you think Snape would understand the brother that asked for the Ressurection Stone? Tom is clearer to me -- he wants the Elder Wand. And Harry has the cloak. Just observing.
But then you could say there's a resembalance between the three brothers and the Trio, Harry Ron and Hermione, too. Hermione would have chosen the cloak, Ron the wand and Harry the stone. If you want to narrow it down to which person would chose what hallow of Harry, Snape and Voldemort, Harry would have chosen the stone along with Snape as he said in canon. Based simply on who would choose which hallows you could make a group out of any three completely random characters from the book and say they resemble the three brothers because each would choose a different hallow.

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I said that when I wrote: "It wouldn't be much of a difference on his character". Of course Harry didn't have Slytherin traits -- but only the fact he was sorted in Slytherin would make a huge difference on how he sees the world, no...? Canon Harry uses Dark Art when the right buttons are pushed... It's not about Harry, here. It's more about his perceptions and how Hogwarts and other characters will react to the break of the old Slytherin prejudice.
But then, Harry COULD have Slytherin traits. And wouldn't change much what I said above. Only that perhaps he would understand Dark Arts better than Canon!Harry does.
I was agreeing with you in my first paragraph. Superficially it might not have made many differences if we're talking if canon Harry had arbitrarily been sorted into Slytherin. But then canon Harry wasn't a Slytherin, he had the traits of a Gryffindor so then it opens up the can of worms of what would have to change about canon Harry in order to get him sorted into Slytherin in the first place.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I'm wondering just how Tom Riddle had his hopes shattered at Hogwarts
My interpretation of what Lacerta Lynx meant by this is that Tom Riddle found hope at Hogwarts and after he left Hogwarts those dreams were shattered. Snape's hope at Hogwarts was Lily and it's arguable that his hopes were shattered twice: once in SWM and once when he discovered she had died.

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Another Tom Riddle or Severus Snape? It isn't what I'd like to read, personally. I wouldn't find a supporter of murder and oppression via the Dark Arts at all likeable.
I guess if you want to talk fiction, the main character doesn't necessarily have to be likeable, you, as a reader, just have to have enough of an interest in their story plight to keep reading. I'm reading Silence of the Lambs right now and I find Jame Gumb, the Buffalo Bill character, completely sick, twisted, wrong in so many ways and horribly unlikeable, but next to the Lector scenes, his are among the more interesting in the book to read because it's like a safe way for a "normal" person to inhabit the mind of a derranged killer. I don't condone what he's doing in the book but it's still interesting to read about.

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I do think there is some similarity between the three brothers and Harry, Snape and Voldemort. I think they made similar choices to the three brothers. However, two of the brothers' choices were inherently selfish and destructive.
This is the best example of how Harry, Voldemort and Snape are similar to the three brothers, but I'd remove the "however" from the quote. Two of the brothers' choices were inherently selfish and destructive. Voldemort's and Snape's choices were inherently selfish and destructive. This argument I buy.

I still think the comparison is pretty thin, though.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Doubt it. Slytherin student doesn't automatically mean future dark wizard. Well known example is Snape. We have Slughorn, Regulus Black as well.
I agree, but we don't really have an example of a Slytherin character who is altogether likable either. Slughorn is the closest example of a likeable Slytherin but even he is unlikeable quite a lot - when he shows obvious favoritism towards his SlugClub students, ignores the ones he doesn't have any need of, he tresspasses into peoples houses and lives there (I'm sorry, I'm not okay with that, it's criminal) etc. Snape is a known example of a not-entirely bad Slytherin but I, personally, think he was on the brink of becoming a dark wizard, or at least firmly on course to becoming one before the threat and ultimate death of Lily sort of shocked him back to reality.

Slytherins may not be all bad, but with what we know of Slytherin characters from the books and the traits they carry that get them sorted into that house they are not all together a very likeable bunch.

This doesn't mean, though, that I wouldn't find a story of a Slytherin Harry interesting. But he would be an entirely different character than canon Harry.

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Wouldn't be too bad if he turned out like Snape actually. The guy, after Dumbledore, who was responsible for defeating Voldemort. Pretty impressive actually.
Snape would be the last person I'd want anyone turning out to be like. He was angry, embittered and selfish and hled on to prejudices and grudges until his dying breath. What he did, on the other hand, was very brave and... noble isn't sitting right with me but it's the best descriptor I have. I would want people to aspire to do the kinds of things he did for the Order, but not to turn out like him.

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Actually, I don't think he did. IMO Hermione understood dark magic more than Harry though as an auror he would have got up to speed.
I agree. Hermione had a better fundamental knowledge of the dark arts than Harry did. Where Harry excelled over Hermione was in the practical application of defensive magic.

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I wonder how Snape would have reacted if Harry was sorted in Slytherin ?
Now that would have been interesting. I don't think it would have won Harry any points in Snape's score book just because they shared a hogwarts house, though.


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  #682  
Old March 6th, 2012, 9:51 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

In OotP, Bellatrix says to perform the Unforgivable Curses, you have to want to do them--to enjoy them.

In DH, Harry makes the comment when he uses the Cruciatus Curse on a Carrow that Bellatrix was right. Seems to me he was leaning a bit toward the Dark side in that scene.


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  #683  
Old March 6th, 2012, 10:09 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
But then you could say there's a resembalance between the three brothers and the Trio, Harry Ron and Hermione, too. Hermione would have chosen the cloak, Ron the wand and Harry the stone. If you want to narrow it down to which person would chose what hallow of Harry, Snape and Voldemort, Harry would have chosen the stone along with Snape as he said in canon.
But it's not just which Hallow they would have chosen - it's their attitude to life and what they wanted and chose to do. Voldemort chose to pursue power at all costs, and not just power, but complete supremacy - as the first brother wanted an "unbeatable" Wand. Snape refused to let go, just as the second brother did, to the detriment of all involved. Harry took off the Cloak and willingly faced death, like the third brother.

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My interpretation of what Lacerta Lynx meant by this is that Tom Riddle found hope at Hogwarts and after he left Hogwarts those dreams were shattered. Snape's hope at Hogwarts was Lily and it's arguable that his hopes were shattered twice: once in SWM and once when he discovered she had died.
I'm still not sure where Tom Riddle's hopes and dreams were shattered. either at Hogwarts or after. Unless it's in relation to poor ickle Voldie getting vapourised when he tried to murder a baby. Up until then, things were going according to (twisted) plan.

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I guess if you want to talk fiction, the main character doesn't necessarily have to be likeable, you, as a reader, just have to have enough of an interest in their story plight to keep reading. I'm reading Silence of the Lambs right now and I find Jame Gumb, the Buffalo Bill character, completely sick, twisted, wrong in so many ways and horribly unlikeable, but next to the Lector scenes, his are among the more interesting in the book to read because it's like a safe way for a "normal" person to inhabit the mind of a derranged killer. I don't condone what he's doing in the book but it's still interesting to read about.
It's a personal thing, but I prefer to like a main character, or at least be able to like something about them. I couldn't stick seven books from a miniature DE's perspective or from the perspective of someone who condoned that kind of evil.

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This is the best example of how Harry, Voldemort and Snape are similar to the three brothers, but I'd remove the "however" from the quote. Two of the brothers' choices were inherently selfish and destructive. Voldemort's and Snape's choices were inherently selfish and destructive. This argument I buy.
I agree about Snape's and Voldemort's choices. The "however" was in relation to the difference between the first two brothers and the third, the same difference as between Snape and Voldemort similar to the first two brothers, and Harry as similar to the third.

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Snape is a known example of a not-entirely bad Slytherin but I, personally, think he was on the brink of becoming a dark wizard, or at least firmly on course to becoming one before the threat and ultimate death of Lily sort of shocked him back to reality.
I think he had become a Dark wizard by then. IMO, a Death Eater is a dark wizard. I see no way that someone who's a part of something that evil is not a dark wizard.

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I would want people to aspire to do the kinds of things he did for the Order, but not to turn out like him.
I like that way of looking at it. I think it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
In OotP, Bellatrix says to perform the Unforgivable Curses, you have to want to do them--to enjoy them.

In DH, Harry makes the comment when he uses the Cruciatus Curse on a Carrow that Bellatrix was right. Seems to me he was leaning a bit toward the Dark side in that scene.
He didn't condone it in the way the DEs and their sympathisers did. He didn't make it a part of his normal life. He didn't embrace Dark Magic as a way of life as the DEs and their ilk did. Harry made mistakes, as he did when he used that spell, but he wasn't leaning towards the dark side - he didn't think dark magic was an acceptable way to live one's life, as the criminals who served Voldemort did.


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  #684  
Old March 7th, 2012, 12:14 am
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

This is a really interesting topic. I like it.! I am going to give my opinion and thoughts on this one.

1: What if Harry was never selected for the Triwizard tournament and would have stayed with his fellow Griffindor members and watched the three champions complete against each other?

2: What if Lord Voldemort was sorted in Griffindor instead of Slytherin and was a good guy and didn't kill Harry's parent's in the end? And Harry still had his parents and a normal life in the wizarding world??

These are my two major "What If" questions that I have thought about it for a while. Pretty interesting, don't you think?


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  #685  
Old March 7th, 2012, 12:28 am
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

1) Well, things would've more of less been the same except somehow FakeMoody would've tried to get Harry to touch something else he'd enchanted into a portkey while everyone else was too busy paying attention to the Tournament. And the Twins wouldn't have gotten the 1000 Galleons needed to open their store, so they'd have to do the sensible thing and just apply for a Bank Loan which would accomplish the same ends.

2) No series!

Alright...what if Ron actually DID have some unique quality that Harry and Hermione didn't have, like if he had Seer powers that he couldn't control that let him see future events (but not understand what he's seeing). What would this do to his character and impact the series?


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  #686  
Old March 7th, 2012, 1:40 am
Charlotte_Snape  Female.gif Charlotte_Snape is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I still think the comparison is pretty thin, though.
I think the comparison is strong, but maybe more on a symbolic/metaphorical level. I do think we are led to draw that comparison though. The Prophecy is just as central to the story as the Hallows (imo) -- and Riddle, Harry, & Snape are all joined by the prophecy. I think this association is stronger than the trio or any random group of 3 that you could compare to the three brothers.

So on the one hand we have the Prophecy & the abandoned boys, on the other hand the Hallows & the three brothers, and their destinies are intertwined by blood relation, too: Riddle is a descendant of Cadmus and Harry is a descendant of Ignotus (and who knows ~ maybe Pottermore will reveal Snape to be a descendant of Antioch).


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  #687  
Old March 7th, 2012, 4:19 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I'm still not sure where Tom Riddle's hopes and dreams were shattered. either at Hogwarts or after. Unless it's in relation to poor ickle Voldie getting vapourised when he tried to murder a baby. Up until then, things were going according to (twisted) plan.
Yeah, that's about what I thought. The only hope for dream Voldemort ever had was to become immortal, master of death, etc. therefore the only times his hopes and dreams were shattered were after he left Hogwarts and was thwarted by Harry, both as a child and later when Harry discovered the secret of his horcruxes and destroyed them.

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It's a personal thing, but I prefer to like a main character, or at least be able to like something about them. I couldn't stick seven books from a miniature DE's perspective or from the perspective of someone who condoned that kind of evil.
Fair enough. Seven books written from the perspective of a villainous character would be very trying but I could see how it could be done well. Seven books written from Draco's or Snape's perspectives, for instance, would be very interesting - they are not necessarily villainous but they are Harry's nemisis's (nemises? nemisi? LOL flashback to Mystery Men! What a bad movie )

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I agree about Snape's and Voldemort's choices. The "however" was in relation to the difference between the first two brothers and the third, the same difference as between Snape and Voldemort similar to the first two brothers, and Harry as similar to the third.
I would have removed the "however" because the difference between the two brothers and the third was implied to me; I understood that the third brother was the one that made the different choice just as Harry did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palanthas View Post
This is a really interesting topic. I like it.! I am going to give my opinion and thoughts on this one.

1: What if Harry was never selected for the Triwizard tournament and would have stayed with his fellow Griffindor members and watched the three champions complete against each other?
There would have been no reason to hold the triwizard tournament in the series, then. The whole point of the tournament was to put Harry in a position to get his hands on the cup at the end and be transported to the graveyard. Take Harry out of the tournament and suddenly the focus of the book completely shifts away from the tournament, so much so that Harry would be running around the castle on some other quest and it just so happens that all the students are out watching the tournament. It would become an unnecessary background activity, completely secondary, or maybe even tertiary, to the new plot.

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2: What if Lord Voldemort was sorted in Griffindor instead of Slytherin and was a good guy and didn't kill Harry's parent's in the end? And Harry still had his parents and a normal life in the wizarding world??
We would have been treated to seven very boring books. Take Harry's main antagonist away and there's no reason to even write about the wizarding world. Well, okay, JKR might have been able to scrape together enough for one book, but without a primary antagonist to tie the series together like Voldemort there' nothing to write about. Voldemort's quest for immortality is what drives the books, even more so that Harry's story. Harry, throughout the books, is merely reacting to what Voldemort is doing.

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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
I think the comparison is strong, but maybe more on a symbolic/metaphorical level. I do think we are led to draw that comparison though.
Until I read your post the other day I haven't met or talked to a single other fan who drew this comparison. I respectfully disagree that we were led to draw this comparison. I think it was more of a coincidence, personally. Writers are capable of writing all sorts of mirrors and symbology into their works without realizing it.

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The Prophecy is just as central to the story as the Hallows (imo)
This I disagree with. I think the prophecy is much more central to the story than the hallows - the prophecy is what drove Voldemort to act against Harry when he was a baby, it's what set the ball in motion and kept it moving when Voldemort returned in GOF. The Hallows, on the other hand (and IMO), are only central to the last two books and therefore can't be considered central to the series.

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Riddle, Harry, & Snape are all joined by the prophecy
...
their destinies are intertwined by blood relation, too: Riddle is a descendant of Cadmus and Harry is a descendant of Ignotus (and who knows ~ maybe Pottermore will reveal Snape to be a descendant of Antioch).
This is interesting, I do admit, but I'm not sure if I believe Snape would be a decendant of Antioch. There's just something about that that rubs me wrong. I think it has mostly to do with me not totally buying into your statement that Voldemort, Harry and Snape are joined by the prophecy. Voldemort and Harry certainly are as the prophecy was made about them, but I'd say there's a stronger connection via the prophecy between Voldemort, Harry and Neville than between Voldemort, Harry and Snape. I'd even say there's a stronger connection via the prophecy between Voldemort, Harry and Trelawny, the seer who made the prophecy. Or between Voldemort, Harry and Dumbledore, the original witness to the prophecy. Snape's only contribution to prophecy storyline was telling Dumbledore Voldemort's interpretation of it. to me that's not enough to include him the descendents' trio or to say that Voldemort, Harry and Snape are "joined by the prophecy." I'd also believe Neville was a descendent of Antioch before I believed Snape was.


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  #688  
Old March 7th, 2012, 6:53 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see the DEs as wanting sycophants rather than friends. Friends - Draco Malfoy had bodyguards rather than friends, and he expected them to obey mindlessly. Snape was surprised that Lily refused to mindlessly follow his lead when it came to the Death Eaters. And it's clear that Voldemort wanted servants rather than friends.
Yet Draco still mourned the loss of Crabbe. Draco was the alpha male of the group but I don't think it meant that he wasn't bothered about them. The DEs made friends with people who were similiar to them. I'm sure certain people disliked each other in the group and there was the usual politics but I don't think that meant that they were all friendless looking for cronies.

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I think he understood enough to know that it was wrong, that it was not to be condoned. That it was not acceptable. Harry knew about fighting Dark Magic. He knew about being alone in the face of Dark Magic. This was the kind of experience and understanding Hermione did not have. Hermione also opposed Dark Magic.

Aurors know about Dark Magic to fight against it. They don't approve of or condone it.
He had experience fighting Voldemort not dark magic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post

I agree, but we don't really have an example of a Slytherin character who is altogether likable either. Slughorn is the closest example of a likeable Slytherin but even he is unlikeable quite a lot - when he shows obvious favoritism towards his SlugClub students, ignores the ones he doesn't have any need of, he tresspasses into peoples houses and lives there (I'm sorry, I'm not okay with that, it's criminal) etc. Snape is a known example of a not-entirely bad Slytherin but I, personally, think he was on the brink of becoming a dark wizard, or at least firmly on course to becoming one before the threat and ultimate death of Lily sort of shocked him back to reality.

Slytherins may not be all bad, but with what we know of Slytherin characters from the books and the traits they carry that get them sorted into that house they are not all together a very likeable bunch.

This doesn't mean, though, that I wouldn't find a story of a Slytherin Harry interesting. But he would be an entirely different character than canon Harry.
I think that was done for the purpose of the story. Voldemort was Harry's main villain but for their day to day rivalry, someone else was needed. As for Slughorn, I didn't think he was unlikeable at all to be honest. If you were very good, you got into his club, if not, you didn't. It didn't look like he treated you badly if you were not part of his club. As for his breaking into houses, I'd much rather someone break into my house than modify my memory. Wizards didn't seem to care about muggles at all.

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Snape would be the last person I'd want anyone turning out to be like. He was angry, embittered and selfish and hled on to prejudices and grudges until his dying breath. What he did, on the other hand, was very brave and... noble isn't sitting right with me but it's the best descriptor I have. I would want people to aspire to do the kinds of things he did for the Order, but not to turn out like him.
To be honest, I think this was the reason Snape was able to perform his role so well. Voldemort was also one of the people Snape held a grudge against. In any case, Harry wouldn't have turned out like Snape unless he went through similar things.

Actually, this raises an interesting question. How actually would the Gryffindors have reacted and treated Harry if he was sorted in Slytherin ? I think Harry would have had to deal with a lot of hostility. Up until now, I thought Harry wouldn't change much if he was sorted in Slytherin. However, the gryffindors are no saints and their hostility to him might actually make him into a version of Snape. Having said that, I don't think Harry would have ever become chummy with Voldemort and Voldemort would have had an ambitious and cunning Harry working against him.


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  #689  
Old March 7th, 2012, 7:17 pm
ShadowSonic  Male.gif ShadowSonic is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Strange thing about the Slytherins is that, out of all the ones we see, hardly any of them show any cunning or resourcefulness at all. I don't think Harry would be any more cunning or resourceful if he were a Slytherin just by being in that House.

And Slughorn's Club wasn't really based on merit, you also got in due to connections or if he thought you would be of use to him for whatever reason. It was his way of making important connections for himself more than anything else.

I think Ron would still try to be friends with Harry if he were a Slytherin because they hit it off pretty well before their sorting, though their own Housemates would take issue with this.


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Old March 8th, 2012, 1:01 am
Charlotte_Snape  Female.gif Charlotte_Snape is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
Until I read your post the other day I haven't met or talked to a single other fan who drew this comparison.
Well I can't claim it as my own original idea I've seen it in HP fan art & there's a thread about it in The Cloak.

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Writers are capable of writing all sorts of mirrors and symbology into their works without realizing it.
True, it could be unintentional.

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This I disagree with. I think the prophecy is much more central to the story than the hallows - the prophecy is what drove Voldemort to act against Harry when he was a baby, it's what set the ball in motion and kept it moving when Voldemort returned in GOF. The Hallows, on the other hand (and IMO), are only central to the last two books and therefore can't be considered central to the series.
Replied to in The Prophecy in light of Deathly Hallows thread.

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This is interesting, I do admit, but I'm not sure if I believe Snape would be a decendant of Antioch. There's just something about that that rubs me wrong.
I remember Jo saying that she didn't have Neville marry Luna because it was too neat, and that she preferred leaving loose ends here & there (or something along those lines). So that's one reason I don't think Snape would be a descendant of Antioch its too neat. However, she does intentionally bring many things full circle in the books, so I think its possible that hes related to the first brother. I also wonder if maybe Dumbledore was a descendant of Antioch I think I would like that even better

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I'd also believe Neville was a descendent of Antioch before I believed Snape was.
I think it's possible. Well, I'm sure if there's anything to Antioch's bloodline, JK will let us know about it in the future, through Pottermore.


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  #691  
Old March 8th, 2012, 3:57 am
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape View Post
Well I can't claim it as my own original idea I've seen it in HP fan art & there's a thread about it in The Cloak
...
True, it could be unintentional.
I think the comparison between the abandoned boys and the three brothers isn't strong enough to truly say it was fully intentional and, like I said in my previous post, I think a different three would have made for a neater comparison (Harry/Voldemort/Dumbledore for instance) but we could argue in circles about this so let's agree to disagree. It's an interesting theory, though.

Quote:
I think it's possible. Well, I'm sure if there's anything to Antioch's bloodline, JK will let us know about it in the future, through Pottermore.
This contingent on Pottermore opening to the general public in our lifetimes, though.


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  #692  
Old March 8th, 2012, 7:20 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palanthas View Post
1: What if Harry was never selected for the Triwizard tournament and would have stayed with his fellow Griffindor members and watched the three champions complete against each other?
Voldemort would have been pretty miffed at Barty Jr. for messing up. And he would have to find some other way to get to Harry.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Alright...what if Ron actually DID have some unique quality that Harry and Hermione didn't have, like if he had Seer powers that he couldn't control that let him see future events (but not understand what he's seeing). What would this do to his character and impact the series?
Well, there was that remark about Riddle's award - "maybe he murdered Myrtle" in CoS. But seriously, I think it would have made a big difference if Ron had genuine Seer abilities - if they could interpret these things, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
Yeah, that's about what I thought. The only hope for dream Voldemort ever had was to become immortal, master of death, etc. therefore the only times his hopes and dreams were shattered were after he left Hogwarts and was thwarted by Harry, both as a child and later when Harry discovered the secret of his horcruxes and destroyed them.
Personally, I think it's a very good thing that poor ickle Voldie had his hopes (of murder, oppression and immortality) shattered, then.

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Fair enough. Seven books written from the perspective of a villainous character would be very trying but I could see how it could be done well. Seven books written from Draco's or Snape's perspectives, for instance, would be very interesting - they are not necessarily villainous but they are Harry's nemisis's (nemises? nemisi? LOL flashback to Mystery Men! What a bad movie )
It's a matter of opinion whether or not they are villainous. Personally, I think seven books based on either of them would be seven books of self-absorbed whinging and in Draco's case, bigotry and wishing Hermione dead. Not my cup of tea.

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I would have removed the "however" because the difference between the two brothers and the third was implied to me; I understood that the third brother was the one that made the different choice just as Harry did.
I see what you mean, but I think I included the "however" because it set the third brother and Harry apart from those who made destructive and selfish decisions.
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We would have been treated to seven very boring books.
Perhaps seven books of high-school cliche rubbish as the characters and themes are sometimes reduced to in discussion?

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This I disagree with. I think the prophecy is much more central to the story than the hallows - the prophecy is what drove Voldemort to act against Harry when he was a baby, it's what set the ball in motion and kept it moving when Voldemort returned in GOF. The Hallows, on the other hand (and IMO), are only central to the last two books and therefore can't be considered central to the series.
I agree. The prophecy is what set everything in motion. The prophecy is the reason for the Potters' murders and Voldemort's series-long obsession with Harry. We could have a series without the Hallows, but not without the Prophecy.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Yet Draco still mourned the loss of Crabbe. Draco was the alpha male of the group but I don't think it meant that he wasn't bothered about them. The DEs made friends with people who were similiar to them. I'm sure certain people disliked each other in the group and there was the usual politics but I don't think that meant that they were all friendless looking for cronies.
I think their interpretation of "friend" leaves a lot to be desired. Their version of "friend" was someone who wouldn't disagree with you. Their version of "friend" is a mindless sycophant.

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He had experience fighting Voldemort not dark magic.
And the difference is? Voldemort wasn't exactly casting tickling charms.

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To be honest, I think this was the reason Snape was able to perform his role so well.
That may be true, but it still does not indicate that Snape is the kind of person I would want to emulate the attitudes and behaviour of.

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Actually, this raises an interesting question. How actually would the Gryffindors have reacted and treated Harry if he was sorted in Slytherin ? I think Harry would have had to deal with a lot of hostility. Up until now, I thought Harry wouldn't change much if he was sorted in Slytherin. However, the gryffindors are no saints and their hostility to him might actually make him into a version of Snape. Having said that, I don't think Harry would have ever become chummy with Voldemort and Voldemort would have had an ambitious and cunning Harry working against him.
Why would they have shown hostility towards Harry unless he behaved like Malfoy? The Slytherins Harry and co. have animosity towards are the DE-wannabes like Malfoy and his gang and the Inquisitorial Squad who are doing their level best to oppress the other students.
Personally, I think being chummy with someone who is a bad influence like Malfoy would be far more likely to send a Slytherin-Harry down the wrong path than animosity from Gryffindors.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
Strange thing about the Slytherins is that, out of all the ones we see, hardly any of them show any cunning or resourcefulness at all.
Of the students in Harry's time, I think that Draco was quite cunning in his schemes. There's his faked injury to avoid playing in a storm (love how that one backfired) and his schemes in HBP - using ideas he overheard from Hermione, Polyjuicing Crabbe and Goyle into first-years, avoiding being directly linked with his actions.

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I don't think Harry would be any more cunning or resourceful if he were a Slytherin just by being in that House.
I agree. One doesn't develop those traits magically because they're placed in a particular House. They're put in that House because they have, or value those traits.


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Old March 8th, 2012, 8:54 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

From the "Prophecy in light of the Deathly Hallows" thread:

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Why didn’t LV give James a choice? He was as wandless as Lily and therefore no threat at all. The only indication we have as to why he didn’t was because Snape specifically asked LV for Lily’s life. If LV only offered her a chance to live for some unknown reason of his own, it would have meant more to him and he would have just moved her aside.
This begs the question of whether Voldemort killed James and spared Lily simply because Snape asked him to spare her only and not James? If, perhaps, the roles had been reversed and James had been the one putting Harry to bed and Lily had seen Voldemort come through the door -- would she still have been presented with the choice Voldemort extended her in canon? Or would she have been blasted aside and the choice presented to James???


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Old March 8th, 2012, 9:05 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
This begs the question of whether Voldemort killed James and spared Lily simply because Snape asked him to spare her only and not James? If, perhaps, the roles had been reversed and James had been the one putting Harry to bed and Lily had seen Voldemort come through the door -- would she still have been presented with the choice Voldemort extended her in canon? Or would she have been blasted aside and the choice presented to James???
Interesting. It would involve a change of circumstances, with the parent with Harry putting him to bed, rather than fleeing from Voldemort.

I doubt Voldemort would have given Lily a choice then. He gave her the choice when he had her cornered and his true target in sight. I imagine he would have either killed her immediately, or Stupefied her out of the way. He might have given James a choice, as he seems to have gotten a kick out of such a thing, and Harry was in sight. I think he would have killed James anyway, but he might have offered him the choice for the sick enjoyment of it, because he had time to spare now that Harry wasn't going anywhere. If he did give James the choice, that would have saved Harry. If not, Harry would have died.

In any case, if he had Stupefied Lily before going after James and Harry, I think it would end up just like any "what if" scenario where Lily survived but lost Harry and/or - with Lily either a captive, or emotionally crushed, or determined to have vengeance on those responsible, or some combination of the three.


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Old March 8th, 2012, 9:32 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
From the "Prophecy in light of the Deathly Hallows" thread:

This begs the question of whether Voldemort killed James and spared Lily simply because Snape asked him to spare her only and not James?
I’m not quite seeing a question here. On the windy hill, JKR specifically shows us that Snape asks only for Lily’s life (and neatly emphasizes that fact by showing DD’s reaction to it.) Is it coincidence that only Lily is given the choice to move aside? I think not.

The prophecy states that the vanquisher was to be born to those who thrice defied him. If both Lily and James had thrice defied LV, why does he differentiate between them, offering one life and the other not? Nowhere in the books are we given a clear reason for why LV makes such a distinction between Lily and James other than Snape’s request.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
If, perhaps, the roles had been reversed and James had been the one putting Harry to bed and Lily had seen Voldemort come through the door -- would she still have been presented with the choice Voldemort extended her in canon?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
Or would she have been blasted aside and the choice presented to James???
No.

It was always easier for LV to just blast aside whatever was in his way. He had to have a reason to give Lily a choice and we are not shown any reason other than Snape’s request she be spared.


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Old March 8th, 2012, 11:19 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Im not quite seeing a question here. On the windy hill, JKR specifically shows us that Snape asks only for Lilys life (and neatly emphasizes that fact by showing DDs reaction to it.) Is it coincidence that only Lily is given the choice to move aside? I think not.
Voldemort chose to give Lily that choice. Snape would have wanted Voldemort to just move Lily aside magically and then murder her child. Even Snape would have known that Lily wouldn't abandon her child to a madman, not even to flounce off with him.

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The prophecy states that the vanquisher was to be born to those who thrice defied him. If both Lily and James had thrice defied LV, why does he differentiate between them, offering one life and the other not? Nowhere in the books are we given a clear reason for why LV makes such a distinction between Lily and James other than Snapes request.
Perhaps because when he was faced with James, he had to end it quickly in case Lily escaped with Harry. When he got to Lily, there was no escape. He had time to offer Lily a choice. If James had been taking Harry to bed, he wouldn't have given Lily a choice, he would have either murdered her on the spot, or Stunned her. His priority was to kill the child he believed to be a threat. Snape and his "reward" came further down the list.

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It was always easier for LV to just blast aside whatever was in his way. He had to have a reason to give Lily a choice and we are not shown any reason other than Snapes request she be spared.
Voldemort chose to give Lily that option. That wasn't what Snape wanted, not by a long shot. Snape wanted Lily to have no choice in the matter. Snape would have infinitely preferred for Lily to have no choice, no chance to protect her child. Giving Lily a choice was Voldemort's decision. Honouring Snape's request would have meant blasting Lily aside with a Stunning spell, or a Body Bind. Not giving her a choice - why would Snape, of all people, want Lily to have a choice to protect her child?


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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:06 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

What if Dumbledore had found a DADA teacher in OotP, and never had to hire Umbridge?


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Old March 14th, 2012, 1:04 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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What if Dumbledore had found a DADA teacher in OotP, and never had to hire Umbridge?
I don't think DD had a choice with Umbridge. Supposedly he could select new teachers (like he did with Firenze), but I don't think he had a choice with Umbridge. It would have been interesting to see the real Mad-eye Moody or Tonks in the position.


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Old March 14th, 2012, 2:07 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

1. What if Snape had realized what the Resurrection Stone was while he was healing DD and then, somehow, managed to get his hands on it? Would he have called Lily back? Would she have come? Would she have a choice in the matter or do the dead HAVE TO come when summoned by the Stone?

2. What if Viktor Krum, like Fleur, had decided to move to UK to work? Would he have continued his relationship with Hermione (there didn't seem to be any major problems there)? How would this affect the dynamic within the Trio?

3. What if Merope had continued feeding Tom Riddle Sr. with the Love Potion? Or, what if, after she stopped giving it to him, he accepted her as his wife just for the sake of the baby and/or his family's honor? How would this have affected Voldemort's view on Muggles?


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Old March 14th, 2012, 8:40 pm
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Re: General 'What If...?' Thread

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I don't think DD had a choice with Umbridge. Supposedly he could select new teachers (like he did with Firenze), but I don't think he had a choice with Umbridge. It would have been interesting to see the real Mad-eye Moody or Tonks in the position.
I think it's stated in OotP that the Ministry placed Umbridge at Hogwarts because Dumbledore was unable to appoint a teacher. It was the first of the new educational decrees - the Ministry could appoint a new teacher only if the Headteacher was unable to do so. Dumbledore pointed this out in response to Umbridge's objection to the hiring of Firenze without reference to her. This suggests that Dumbledore didn't invite the real Moody back or offer the post to Tonks. But, if he had done so, I think all of the students may have been taught the kind of defensive magic Harry taught the DA, and more. On the other hand, I think that they would have lacked the experience of working in resistance to oppression. I think Umbridge's oppression and malevolence backfired in that the DA who remained at Hogwarts had a base to build on when working against the Carrows. And they knew about sealing the loopholes in the Room of Requirement.

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
1. What if Snape had realized what the Resurrection Stone was while he was healing DD and then, somehow, managed to get his hands on it? Would he have called Lily back? Would she have come? Would she have a choice in the matter or do the dead HAVE TO come when summoned by the Stone?
If Snape knew what it was and took the ring from Dumbledore., I think he would have called Lily. I don't think the dead have a choice - the girl called back by the second brother was unhappy and no longer belonged in this world, but was called so she had to remain. However, I don't think Snape would have been too bothered that Lily was unhappy at being dragged back. I do think she would have quite a bit to say to him about his treatment of Harry that he wouldn't like hearing.

Then, there would be the consequences when Dumbledore realised that Snape had taken the Stone.

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2. What if Viktor Krum, like Fleur, had decided to move to UK to work? Would he have continued his relationship with Hermione (there didn't seem to be any major problems there)? How would this affect the dynamic within the Trio?
Even if he had moved to the UK, he would have been working and Hermione would still have been in school. Bill and Fleur were both out of school, which made it easier to conduct a relationship. And they were both working at Gringotts, which could be a positive or a negative. I think Ron's jealousy could have intensified if Hermione was meeting with Viktor on Hogsmeade weekends. However, they wouldn't have seen that much of each other, as those weekends were rare.

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3. What if Merope had continued feeding Tom Riddle Sr. with the Love Potion? Or, what if, after she stopped giving it to him, he accepted her as his wife just for the sake of the baby and/or his family's honor? How would this have affected Voldemort's view on Muggles?
If Merope had continued feeding Tom Riddle Sr. the potion, he would have continued to be a captive victim. Depending on how much Tom Jr. knew or picked up about the relationship between his parents, I think he would have seen love as something to control people.

If he had chosen to stay for the sake of the child, I think he would probably have taken the child and left as soon as he could. How could he trust Merope not to do the same thing to him again? How could he trust her not to turn him into a mindless prisoner again? And, if he stayed for the sake of his baby, how could he trust that the baby would be safe from such a person?

If he took his child away and raised Tom Riddle Jr. himself, I think he would have turned out differently. I think he would not have been grown up with such a desire for superiority and to oppress others. I think he would probably have been rather proud and snobby because of his wealth, but not dangerous. I think he would have felt that he was someone specific during his formative years, not one among many as he was at the orphanage. Thus, removing the need to overcome others and be superior to all. (Although, having said that, the children at the orphanage did not all become crazed killers).


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