Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

[leah49]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Regarding adult intent in dressing Snape poorly:

According to the text, "his clothes were so mismatched that it looked deliberate." (DH, 665 - US edition).

That could mean many things. It could be his mother or father purposefully putting him in a bad arrangement of clthes because he or she doesn't like him. It could be Severus doing it out of defiance. He's a kid. He doesn't want to play by his parents' rules, blah, blah, blah.

As others have pointed out, the text also indicates elsewhere that he is ashamed and embarrassed by his clothes. So if the mismatch was deliberate, it is quite unlikely that he is the one who made it so.

He's embarrassed because he's been caught by people he wants to impress. He wants to impress Lily, in the sense that he wants her to be his friends because she's magical. He could have still picked them out himself not caring what people thought, but then he found someone he did care.

[TreacleTartlet]

I really doubt that Severus chose to dress in those awful muggle clothes. If he wanted to impress Lily I think he would have at some time changed his attire if he had any control over what he wore. However he is still dressed oddly two years later at Kings Cross station. We see him change into his school robes as soon as he gets on the Hogwarts Express, and Harry seems to be of the impression that it was so he could get out of his awful muggle clothes.

DH, The Prince's Tale He had already changed into his school robes, had perhaps taken the first opportunity to take off his dreadful muggle clothes.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

However, I think hiding behind a bush to watch other kids, and jumping out at them is quite unhealthy behaviour. His surprise that Lily does not react well, and that Petunia doesn't go off and leave her superiors alone suggests that he really has no idea about how people behave.

I don't think Severus jumped out at them from the bushes by design, which I agree would be odd. To me the text suggests that he got carried away with the over excitement of seeing Lily performing magic.

DH, The Prince's Tale Snape could no longer contain himself, but had jumped out from behind the bushes.

That seems to me like quite normal behaviour of a child who is just so over excited and cannot "contain" themselves.

[MsJPotter]

=ccollinsmith;5764614]Regarding adult intent in dressing Snape poorly:

According to the text, "his clothes were so mismatched that it looked deliberate." (DH, 665 - US edition).

As others have pointed out, the text also indicates elsewhere that he is ashamed and embarrassed by his clothes. So if the mismatch was deliberate, it is quite unlikely that he is the one who made it so.

Looks can be deceiving though can't they? I don't think they were deliberately chosen to embarrass the kid, but it kinds of begs the question as to why Eileen didn't transfigure the coat at least. What's the use of having magic if you can't change your kid's clothes? Maybe Snape's mother just wasn't that capable magically, or she could have been just not that bothered or Snape could have woke up that morning and just shoved on the first clothes that came to hand.
The only other time we see Snape embarrassed by his clothes, lets face it he's old enough to have taken care of that problem himself. If his underwear was dirty he should have got them washed. We never see any other child in the entire series walking around with dirty underwear. Snape was 15 at least, old enough to put his clothes in the dirty laundry hamper. Old enough to get a summer job to buy clothes if his folks couldn't afford any.



[quote]Regarding automatic outsider status:

Snape is the only "only child" in the entire series who meets all of the following criteria: a) he is aware of the fact that he has magic, b) he lives in an exclusively non-magic neighborhood, and c) the audience sees him in his home environment.

Harry meets two of the above criteria, as does Riddle. Of the three "abandoned boys," Snape is the only one who grows up fully aware of what makes him different from those around him. He has magic. His neighbors don't. And judging by how Muggles typically react to magic throughout the series, his neighbors would not be at all happy if they did know.

In addition, there is no one his age to share his magic with... until he sees Lily.

So yes, I think there is a good case to be made for the notion that he is an automatic outsider. He is different. And judging by his hiding behind a bush afraid to approach these girls, I would say that his difference isolates him.

Nah, I don't buy that, sorry. Snape may be the only one we see in the book but there are just too many kids that are born half-blood. Seamus had a witch mother and a Muggle father. He didn't complain about being the only magical kid in his town. He doesn't have any brothers or sisters show up so that means he had to be an only child.

Regarding the tree branch...

I think it's every bit as deliberate as Harry blowing up his Aunt Marge. Petunia had just taunted Little!Sev about his clothes. He was very angry. Magic happened. The tree branch fell. He knew his magic caused it to happen, just as Harry knew his magic caused Aunt Marge to blow up. When asked, Little!Sev lied... but he also looked "scared."

The fact that he looks "scared" indicates to me that he is afraid of what his magic power can do. (Why be "scared" if he was in full control of it?).

Snape was quite a bit younger that the 13 year old Harry. That tells me he probably had more control over his magic at age 9. As you say he knew he was magical. It could just as well be he was scared because Lily was pretty mad at him for hurting her sister. He put a lot of trouble into getting to know Lily and then he makes her mad by deliberately hurting her sister. Sure he could be scared at that.

I find the "uncontrolled magic" scenario the most plausible because at this point in the narrative, JKR appears to be deliberately creating parallels between Harry and Little!Sev in order to show how Harry ultimately comes to empathize with Snape. The parallels are shown, in my opinion, through uncontrolled magic and through descriptions of Little!Sev that read almost exactly like descriptions of Cupboard!Harry.

Could be, but you just said that Snape knew he was magical. The parallels could be contrasts. Snape knowing how to use his power real young and using it to hurt someone who didn't deserve it and Harry being totally mystified at what happened at the same age. Petunia didn't deserve to have a branch dropped on her. Aunt Madge was an adult who cruel and vicious to a child. Petunia was a just a little kid herself. Look what happens as a result of this magic, Petunai grows up to hate magic and takes it out on Harry.
There are a lot of abused kids through out the books, I think they are there to show how being abused is never a reason to abuse others when you have power over them. Sure Snape had some tough times, so did a lot of other people. Not all of them became a terrorist and not all of them abused children in a classroom either. Bullying is abuse.

[boushh]

IMO, there were only a couple of children that we saw that had control over their magic when young/wandless, and one of them was Lily. I feel that's partly what drew young Severus. Not only was she a magical child like he was, but she could control her magic.

I always felt that Severus and the branch incident was a direct parallel to Harry doing things he could not explain at a very young age. He even recalls this early on in DH. If Harry was aware that he was a wizard he would know that what he was exhibiting was bursts of uncontrolled magic. That's how I see Severus. He knew he caused the branch to fall, but he couldn't control it happening. It just did. And he didn't want to admit that his uncontrolled magic could have hurt Petunia because it would still be viewed unfavorably by Lily. Whether or not he intended to do it he was still the cause... and how would he know if she would believe him or not, when she seemed to have such control over her magic? I wonder if he was even somewhat embarrassed that he didn't have more control, since Lily clearly exhibited a good deal of control for her age.

[horcrux4]

DH ch 33 There was undisguised greed in his thin face as he watched the younger of the two girls swinging higher and higher than her sister.

DH ch 33 His voice trailed away; she was not listening, but had stretched out on the leafy ground and was looking up at the canopy of leaves overhead. He watched her as greedily as he had in the playground.

What is this greed that Jo mentions twice? Is he just greedy for her attention? It seems rather a strong word for that. A bit unhealthy IMO.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

What is this greed that Jo mentions twice? Is he just greedy for her attention? It seems rather a strong word for that. A bit unhealthy IMO.

I think it was meant to suggest he was like a starving man looking at a feast, from the mention of his thin face as well as his greed.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think it was meant to suggest he was like a starving man looking at a feast, from the mention of his thin face as well as his greed.

Yes, I think he was starved for companionship and couldn't get enough of being near someone who was like him. I also look at it from the perspective of how powerful Lily appears to be to him in how she can control her magic. He may have thought it wasn't enough just to be a wizard once he saw what she could do. I got the impression that he may have wanted to be able to do the things that she was able to do with magic.

[Snapes_Girl]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

May I ask why? He did not jump out at them with a view to frighten or harass them, and he immediately realized he had made a poor decision by appearing in such a manner.

Personally, I see this as a situation easily within the set of normal childhood interactions. (Though for a more objective point of view, I've asked two people I know about this, using your exact words but leaving the source and context unidentified, and neither one has agreed that it describes anything unhealthy.) If it helps at all to convince you, I would point out that the person here who felt scandalized, disapproved of Snape from the outset, and accused him of spying was Petunia. Generally I would do what I could to avoid agreeing with her regardless of the context.

I agree with your comments. In addition, I think in Snape's defense, since he was an only child, I'm sure he had limited interactions with other kids his age up to that point. This could have contributed to how he made his introduction...which is far from being unhealthy to me considering the circumstances.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

What is this greed that Jo mentions twice? Is he just greedy for her attention? It seems rather a strong word for that. A bit unhealthy IMO.

I think he's 'greedy' for anyone's attention/recognition; he's been isolated, I think, completely, up until that first meeting with Lily and Petunia. In my opinion, it's highlighting how desperate he is to mix or have a friend his own age- just a friend in general, even. And then, Lily being magical like he was only intensified this feeling as I think children often have incredibly powerful or almost uncontrollable emotions. In my eyes, young Snape was beside himself because he not only found a friend in Lily, but he found a unique form of common ground with her.

Also, it could be a hint at young Snape's severe lack of communication with other people and his minimal social understanding due to his unhealthly upbringing. Notice that, this 'greed' present in Snape's face is only mentioned when he is a young child, which, to me, suggests that Lily taught him, to an extent, how to be sociable; how to interact with a friend. This could be highlighted in the memory with Snape and Lily walking in the courtyard; he seems significantly more confident then and is actually questioning Lily about their friendship ("I thought we were supposed to be friends? Best friends?"). This could mean that Lily, in a way, brought Snape's social understanding and comprehension of the nature of friendship up to speed in a more sufficient and healthier way than what is known of Snape's parents, ever did.

Just my opinon.

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

What is this greed that Jo mentions twice? Is he just greedy for her attention? It seems rather a strong word for that. A bit unhealthy IMO.

It does read as being unhealthy. Isn't greed one of the 7 Deadly Sins? I think it's a foreshadowing of Snape's unhealthy attitude toward Lily. I don't think he ever sees her as her own person. She's from the beginning IMO, a possession that he wants. He is 'greedy' with her. He doesn't want her sister around, he wants it to be just him a Lily. We know that he went to Lily's home at least once but there's no proof he was a regular visitor and I don't think he was. Lily's family represented the Muggle part of her heritage and I think Snape didn't want that heritage to be part of their relationship. They talk about the magical world. Snape isn't asking her why his clothes are so different and what his mother could do about them. They are definitely not talking about the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. They're not even talking about Dr Who.

[ecardina]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

It does read as being unhealthy. Isn't greed one of the 7 Deadly Sins? I think it's a foreshadowing of Snape's unhealthy attitude toward Lily. I don't think he ever sees her as her own person. She's from the beginning IMO, a possession that he wants. He is 'greedy' with her. He doesn't want her sister around, he wants it to be just him a Lily. We know that he went to Lily's home at least once but there's no proof he was a regular visitor and I don't think he was. Lily's family represented the Muggle part of her heritage and I think Snape didn't want that heritage to be part of their relationship. They talk about the magical world. Snape isn't asking her why his clothes are so different and what his mother could do about them. They are definitely not talking about the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. They're not even talking about Dr Who.

I'd say he was very much possessive of her from the start and maybe even unhealthily obsessed. A good example of that is in the 'Prince's Tale' when they are discussing the Marauders. Snape is insanely jealous of the possibility Lily might have feelings for James.

Snape: 'I wont- I won't let you

Lily:' Let me? Let me?'

He backtracks but the point is he feels as if he ought to have some control over her actions.

He panics over the tiny possibility that she could have feelings for James or have a friendship with another boy. It's ironic because these unfounded beliefs pretty much aid him to push her toward him.

I'll add I'm not unromantic but... fancy being in love with someone for, oh, 20+ years who you've:

A) Never been in a romantic relationship with.
B) Not spoken to since you were 15
c) Has been dead... for a very, very long time

There is love and there is obsessive love and I think Snape was ever so slightly obsessed.

From wikipedia on Obsessive Love:

Phase one: Attraction phase

* An instant attraction to romantic interest, usually occurring within the first few minutes of meeting.
* An immediate urge to rush into a relationship regardless of compatibility.
* Becoming "hooked on the look" of another, focusing on the person's physical characteristics while ignoring personality differences.
* Unrealistic fantasies about a relationship with a love interest, assigning unrealistic qualities to an object of affection.
* The beginnings of obsessive, controlling behaviors begin to manifest.

Course, I don't think he got any further than Phase one and some of these may not apply to him but it could be possible?

I've been in an unrequited situation for three years in the past and I know a lot of it has got to to do with obsession. The mind set is 'that person can do no wrong'. For all Snape knew, Lily's personality could have changed or she looked differently etc. etc. The fact she decides to marry and have a child is all James' fault! She can do no evil. It's almost a Dante and Beatrice situation, although, they know each other a lot better!

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by ecardina

I'd say he was very much possessive of her from the start and maybe even unhealthily obsessed. A good example of that is in the 'Prince's Tale' when they are discussing the Marauders. Snape is insanely jealous of the possibility Lily might have feelings for James.

Snape: 'I wont- I won't let you

Lily:' Let me? Let me?'

He backtracks but the point is he feels as if he ought to have some control over her actions.

He panics over the tiny possibility that she could have feelings for James or have a friendship with another boy. It's ironic because these unfounded beliefs pretty much aid him to push her toward him.

I'll add I'm not unromantic but... fancy being in love with someone for, oh, 20+ years who you've:

A) Never been in a romantic relationship with.
B) Not spoken to since you were 15
c) Has been dead... for a very, very long time

There is love and there is obsessive love and I think Snape was ever so slightly obsessed.

From wikipedia on Obsessive Love:

Phase one: Attraction phase

* An instant attraction to romantic interest, usually occurring within the first few minutes of meeting.
* An immediate urge to rush into a relationship regardless of compatibility.
* Becoming "hooked on the look" of another, focusing on the person's physical characteristics while ignoring personality differences.
* Unrealistic fantasies about a relationship with a love interest, assigning unrealistic qualities to an object of affection.
* The beginnings of obsessive, controlling behaviors begin to manifest.

Course, I don't think he got any further than Phase one and some of these may not apply to him but it could be possible?

I've been in an unrequited situation for three years in the past and I know a lot of it has got to to do with obsession. The mind set is 'that person can do no wrong'. For all Snape knew, Lily's personality could have changed or she looked differently etc. etc. The fact she decides to marry and have a child is all James' fault! She can do no evil. It's almost a Dante and Beatrice situation, although, they know each other a lot better!

Yeahup, that memory scene is definitely upsetting. If it's true tat Snape's father was abusive then it makes sense that Snape just doesn't' know how to relate to women. Abusiveness sad to say all too often inherited behaviour. I don't know if Snape would have gone all the way down that path but his;
'I won't let you.'
sure raised my hackles.
It's a good point that Snape didn't know Lily. I think it was strange that he did all these things for a woman that he hadn't seen in years, and who had been dead for more years. I know it's supposed to be romantic and all that, it just strikes me as creepy. Aren't you supposed to live for your love, not hang around in a nothing kind of half life?

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

Yeahup, that memory scene is definitely upsetting. If it's true tat Snape's father was abusive then it makes sense that Snape just doesn't' know how to relate to women. Abusiveness sad to say all too often inherited behaviour. I don't know if Snape would have gone all the way down that path but his;
'I won't let you.'
sure raised my hackles.

Interesting point. I don't think I'd name Snape's behaviour in that particular memory as strong as abusiveness, but, growing up in such a tense/unhealthy atmosphere definitely can affect someone into subsconsciously 'learning' negative behaviour. The "I won't let you" could even be something Snape heard his father say to his mother. I wouldn't say he intentionally set out to say that remark to Lily, I think he knew that his father's attitude was wrong, but I don't think Snape had the same degree of self control on his emotions when he was a teenage.

However, I think what's important here is that when Lily reacts angrily to that, he backtracks immediately. ("I didn't mean-"). I think this shows that he was gaining an understanding of what was right/wrong and acceptable to say to someone due to Lily's friendship, and he certainly knew that the, "I won't let you" comment was wrong and regretted ever saying it.

Unfortunately, due to him allowing himself to become wrapped into Dark Magic/Death Eater beliefs, Snape ignored what he had learned from Lily and 'let' the "Mudblood" insult slip out. And then, of course, later, he tried to overcome that extreme mistake. So, we could almost say that Snape's whole life is of the 'two steps forward, one step back' variety.

Just my opinion.

[ecardina]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

Yeahup, that memory scene is definitely upsetting. If it's true tat Snape's father was abusive then it makes sense that Snape just doesn't' know how to relate to women. Abusiveness sad to say all too often inherited behaviour. I don't know if Snape would have gone all the way down that path but his;
'I won't let you.'
sure raised my hackles.
It's a good point that Snape didn't know Lily. I think it was strange that he did all these things for a woman that he hadn't seen in years, and who had been dead for more years. I know it's supposed to be romantic and all that, it just strikes me as creepy. Aren't you supposed to live for your love, not hang around in a nothing kind of half life?

I wouldn't say it was creepy... just tragically misguided. If you were to look at it from Snape's point of view, I think Lily was the only person throughout his life who truly cared about him. I'm not saying his parents didn't but certainly not to the degree that they'd be willing to encourage him to speak about his feelings... and listen!

If you are starved off affection and understanding from day one, then when you find someone (and in this case, a pretty, extremely talented girl) who does, you aren't going to let go on any account.

Lily was, in Snape's eyes, the 'woman'. He'd been with her since childhood and watched her flourish into a beautiful young woman. As well as being a close friend she probably took on more than one role, perhaps even sibling. He even went as far to call her his 'best friend', which I believe in Snape's eyes was a huge dedication and proposal not dissimilar to marriage. So, he would be jealous if anyone else spent time with her and perhaps even viewed it as a kind of betrayal to their friendship. I think he felt he was well within his rights as her 'best friend' to have some control over what she did and who she spoke to.

As for him regretting what he said... perhaps but we must also remember he backtracked himself a lot then so as not to offend her. Example: He probably didn‘t want anything to do with her family because they were ‘lowly muggles‘ but he wasn‘t exactly going to say it to her face. Lily was very good at the dramatic, nose in air, 'I'm not speaking to you' act. I think he learned pretty quickly to try and please her otherwise he'd be deprived of her attention. Lily had that kind of power over him but sadly it wasn’t strong enough for him to try and change his attitude as a teen.

Lily was kind, understanding, a great partner in crime and a wonderful companion. I think Snape recognised when they seized to be friends that there was no one else in his life quite like her and that he never would find someone like her. I think, after years of not seeing her, he had effectively idolized her in his mind. Whatever the 'reality' was didn't exist in his mind. Instead he relied on memories and emotions to guide him.

Had Snape been brought up in a healthy environment and had many children to play with as a child, I’m sure he wouldn’t have acted the way he did. I think his actions were all out of fear for losing Lily and when he did, forever, I think his actions were in a sense a way to please her, despite her death. Instead of suicide he was talked into protecting her son and I think, in a sense, he felt that doing so was putting him in higher favour with her. Of course, she’s dead but the fact he’s actually doing something to make Lily happy (and constantly for 17 years) probably would have made it even more difficult for him to consider moving on. I think redemption had a big role to play but I always got the impression that secretly he was like a little boy saying ‘Am I doing it right? Do you like me now?’

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by ecardina

I wouldn't say it was creepy... just tragically misguided. If you were to look at it from Snape's point of view, I think Lily was the only person throughout his life who truly cared about him. I'm not saying his parents didn't but certainly not to the degree that they'd be willing to encourage him to speak about his feelings... and listen!

If you are starved off affection and understanding from day one, then when you find someone (and in this case, a pretty, extremely talented girl) who does, you aren't going to let go on any account.

Lily was, in Snape's eyes, the 'woman'. He'd been with her since childhood and watched her flourish into a beautiful young woman. As well as being a close friend she probably took on more than one role, perhaps even sibling. He even went as far to call her his 'best friend', which I believe in Snape's eyes was a huge dedication and proposal not dissimilar to marriage. So, he would be jealous if anyone else spent time with her and perhaps even viewed it as a kind of betrayal to their friendship. I think he felt he was well within his rights as her 'best friend' to have some control over what she did and who she spoke to.

As for him regretting what he said... perhaps but we must also remember he backtracked himself a lot then so as not to offend her. Example: He probably didn‘t want anything to do with her family because they were ‘lowly muggles‘ but he wasn‘t exactly going to say it to her face. Lily was very good at the dramatic, nose in air, 'I'm not speaking to you' act. I think he learned pretty quickly to try and please her otherwise he'd be deprived of her attention. Lily had that kind of power over him but sadly it wasn’t strong enough for him to try and change his attitude as a teen.

Lily was kind, understanding, a great partner in crime and a wonderful companion. I think Snape recognised when they seized to be friends that there was no one else in his life quite like her and that he never would find someone like her. I think, after years of not seeing her, he had effectively idolized her in his mind. Whatever the 'reality' was didn't exist in his mind. Instead he relied on memories and emotions to guide him.

Had Snape been brought up in a healthy environment and had many children to play with as a child, I’m sure he wouldn’t have acted the way he did. I think his actions were all out of fear for losing Lily and when he did, forever, I think his actions were in a sense a way to please her, despite her death. Instead of suicide he was talked into protecting her son and I think, in a sense, he felt that doing so was putting him in higher favour with her. Of course, she’s dead but the fact he’s actually doing something to make Lily happy (and constantly for 17 years) probably would have made it even more difficult for him to consider moving on. I think redemption had a big role to play but I always got the impression that secretly he was like a little boy saying ‘Am I doing it right? Do you like me now?’

If Snape felt like this and I'm not saying aye or nay on this then what it describes is a fantasy world. Let me highlight just one thing you have posted here,

Example: He probably didn‘t want anything to do with her family because they were ‘lowly muggles‘ but he wasn‘t exactly going to say it to her face.

This is pretence. What you are saying is that Snape could not be truthful with Lily about how he felt about her family. OK, nobody wants to be rudeut it's one thing to say that you think your best friend's mother cant make good cookies and another thing to hide your bigotry about her. Do you really think that Snape would have been satisfied with a fantasy world where he was Lily's signifigant other for any length of time? I think that he did't want a fantasy, but he did want Lily.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

It's a good point that Snape didn't know Lily. I think it was strange that he did all these things for a woman that he hadn't seen in years, and who had been dead for more years. I know it's supposed to be romantic and all that, it just strikes me as creepy. Aren't you supposed to live for your love, not hang around in a nothing kind of half life?

I don't think there's any indication that Snape didn't love Lily, or didn't accept her choices after their friendship broke up. As far as we know the last contact they had was the conversation in the book.

I think the most significant thing about the relationship between Lily and Snape was the part he played in her death, rather than a schoolboy crush or any conversation they ever had. Snape inadvertently led Voldemort straight to Lily, and he did it because he became a death eater in spite of her telling him what they really were.

I don't think that's something anyone would forget in twenty years, or even a lifetime.

[ecardina]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

This is pretence. What you are saying is that Snape could not be truthful with Lily about how he felt about her family. OK, nobody wants to be rudeut it's one thing to say that you think your best friend's mother cant make good cookies and another thing to hide your bigotry about her. Do you really think that Snape would have been satisfied with a fantasy world where he was Lily's signifigant other for any length of time? I think that he did't want a fantasy, but he did want Lily.

It was just an example to the sort of double sided behavior he displayed. I wasn't saying he actually felt that way but at one point he nearly does let slip as he doesn't seem to understand why Petunia is so important to Lily, considering she is only a muggle. Snape knows Lily is what she is but despite himself he can't help but admire her and hold her on a pedestal. He doesn't really 'consider' her a 'mudblood'. It's as if she is the only exception which is why it is all the more shocking for both of them when he calls her one. It's like he'd been pretending she didn't count only to find she did and didn't know how that worked in his world.

'Fantasy' a little harsh... there is no question he wanted Lily but at no point did he ever reach out and try and reveal his feelings. As Gwendolen mentions, he was haunted by his actions, be that when he called her a 'mudblood' or revealed that tiny slip of information to the Dark Lord. He had to live with that and try and keep the promise he never was able to forfill during her life. He couldn't protect her so he protected the thing she sacrificed trying to protect. Still, I think if Dumbledore hadn't mentioned this plan, Snape probably would have been too miserable to consider it. I think he grows up a lot with Dumbledore.

I think Snape was deeply connected with Lily and that feelings ran incredibly deep. These feelings may not have been returned but it seemed to drive Snape most of his life. I don't think he was deluded for a second but rather he couldn't, wouldn't and never wanted to move on.

Obviously everything is my own opinion.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by ecardina

I wouldn't say it was creepy... just tragically misguided. If you were to look at it from Snape's point of view, I think Lily was the only person throughout his life who truly cared about him. I'm not saying his parents didn't but certainly not to the degree that they'd be willing to encourage him to speak about his feelings... and listen!

If you are starved off affection and understanding from day one, then when you find someone (and in this case, a pretty, extremely talented girl) who does, you aren't going to let go on any account.

I do agree that Lily was probably the only person who cared about him. I think for young Severus, finding someone who accepted him as he was, and who sympathised rather than made fun of him, must have been quite mind-blowing. However he seems to immediately get into the 'she's mine and I won't share her' mindset in my view, hence the 'greedy' expression. He doesn't want to share her with Petunia, or her school friends and especially not with James! (If he was in love with her then I can't blame him for that!) He seems to immediately feel an ownership of Lily which slips out occasionally ("I won't let you..") and which didn't appeal to her. When a young man who has great difficulty forming relationships falls for a girl who is immensely popular, he has problems.

Lily was kind, understanding, a great partner in crime and a wonderful companion. I think Snape recognised when they seized to be friends that there was no one else in his life quite like her and that he never would find someone like her. I think, after years of not seeing her, he had effectively idolized her in his mind. Whatever the 'reality' was didn't exist in his mind. Instead he relied on memories and emotions to guide him.

I agree with you that he had idolised her in his mind. I think he was enough of a realist not to have 'fantasised' that she'd chosen him instead, that doesn't seem to be the sort of character he was. However, I don't think the Lily he loved all his life was the wife of James and mother of Harry, as he seems not to care about that aspect of her when he asks Dumbledore to protect her. I think he continued to love the girl who had accepted him and befriended him when he was alone and friendless. In that sense I don't think he loved the 'real' Lily, but his memory of her.

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

This is pretence. What you are saying is that Snape could not be truthful with Lily about how he felt about her family. OK, nobody wants to be rudeut it's one thing to say that you think your best friend's mother cant make good cookies and another thing to hide your bigotry about her. Do you really think that Snape would have been satisfied with a fantasy world where he was Lily's signifigant other for any length of time? I think that he did't want a fantasy, but he did want Lily.

I felt that Severus was in fact concealing how he felt about Lily's Muggle family as I'm one of those who thought that his pause before he said that being Muggle-born didn't matter was that to him, meant it actually did. Not as far as Lily was concerned, but as far as he felt about her family. I think he showed Lily his best side always (except when calling her a Mudblood) but his darker side was there all the time, waiting to be enhanced by his time in Slytherin and his friendship with Avery & Mulciber.

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I don't think there's any indication that Snape didn't love Lily, or didn't accept her choices after their friendship broke up. As far as we know the last contact they had was the conversation in the book.

I think the most significant thing about the relationship between Lily and Snape was the part he played in her death, rather than a schoolboy crush or any conversation they ever had. Snape inadvertently led Voldemort straight to Lily, and he did it because he became a death eater in spite of her telling him what they really were.

I don't think that's something anyone would forget in twenty years, or even a lifetime.

I agree with that. I think that being the instrument which led to your best friend's death, even if you and that person had become estranged, would have been a perpetual pain. He did love Lily; I don't think there's any doubt about that. My only query is whether his enduring love was for the Lily she had become when she died, or for the Lily he remembered who had befriended him when everyone thought of him as 'that Snape boy'.

[ecardina]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

I agree with you that he had idolised her in his mind. I think he was enough of a realist not to have 'fantasised' that she'd chosen him instead, that doesn't seem to be the sort of character he was. However, I don't think the Lily he loved all his life was the wife of James and mother of Harry, as he seems not to care about that aspect of her when he asks Dumbledore to protect her. I think he continued to love the girl who had accepted him and befriended him when he was alone and friendless. In that sense I don't think he loved the 'real' Lily, but his memory of her.

I think quite a few people have misunderstood me so I better clarify.

When I refer to Snape ignoring the reality and instead relying on his memories, I don't mean Snape lives in a misguided fantasy world nor that he imagines he is married to Lily. What I mean is, he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is so and so years old, she is dead and he is effectively wasting his time and his life running after a ghost. I believe he is a realist, he understands what he is doing and yet he still refuses to move on. I think he knows he is damaging himself emotionally by behaving in the way he does but is unwilling to change. It's almost as if his life after Lily is a sort of ending, rather than a sequel.

And I agree, I think he is in love with the memory of Lily rather than perhaps the Lily he never knew before her death. Even had Lily turned into a complete cow before her death, I think he'd still be hanging on to what was.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by ecardina

]What I mean is, he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is so and so years old, she is dead and he is effectively wasting his time and his life running after a ghost.

I wouldn't say that's exactly what he is doing, in reality. I took it that he was too practical to go on moping after her death and so very quickly grasped the tangible request DD laid out for him (that is, protecting Harry). So basically, what I'm saying is that because he abhors wasting his time, he does not do so, but translates his grief and guilt into protecting Harry (as he was what Lily died to protect). A much better outcome, from his point of view, than to "wallow in sad memories," IMO.
(Being a spy also makes the dating scene rather impossible. )

I'm not entirely sure he remained static after her death. Much of TPT seems to me as much about Snape's personal growth over the years after Lily's death as it is about his unrequited love for her. I believe he does change throughout his life, and that this change is a major part of TPT.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

My only query is whether his enduring love was for the Lily she had become when she died, or for the Lily he remembered who had befriended him when everyone thought of him as 'that Snape boy'.

I would say both at once. Her acceptance of him in his childhood gave him a good opinion of her, and hearing of her sacrifice would only have heightened this, IMO. We know he was attempting to uphold this sacrifice by protecting Harry, and it's my belief that their friendship was what caused him to ultimately fall in love with her.