Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

[MCDahB]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Speaking for myself, what I find unhealthy and obsessive about Snape's feelings for Lily is his disregard for her wishes and his lack of respect for her. His refusal to accept that she was happy with someone who was not him. I don't see love and obsession as the same thing, though I think both can be present. I think Snape loved the version of Lily that he imagined, rather than Lily as she actually was. Lily could never, ever have supported Snape in becoming a Death Eater. That Snape could not see that says to me that he did not know her. Yes, I know they had known each other since they were children, but he did not know anything about who Lily was. He did not know or care to know something so fundamental about who Lily was. Loving his own version of Lily rather than Lily as she was seems obsessive to me. Destroying Lily's family photograph seems obsessive to me - he is symbolically ripping Lily from her beloved family, just as he would have literally done all those years ago.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Yeah, it's his utter disregard for everything else in her life that makes it unsettling. He doesn't care about James (understandable) but he also doesn't care about her son (who never did anything to Snape except exist) or how much pain she'd be in over having lost her husband and son.

And if he honestly thought that there'd be any happiness for her, a muggleborn who openly fought the Death Eaters, in a world where Voldemort won the war, he's delusional as well.

That all makes good sense, but I do think that some of it is based on significant assumption of how much we can generalize what we can see to what we don't see. We really have very little idea what Severus and Lily's relationship was like. We are shown key moments that relate to larger story, pivotal moments where things change. To say that Snape couldn't have known Lily because he became a death eater or was cruel to Harry is to imply that no one ever does anything that they know will or would hurt someone they love. But people do it all the time. Of course Snape, or part of him, realized that Lily wouldn't like him doing evil stuff. People who get into dark territory largely do so by lying to themselves and pretending that the conflicts don't exist. It would be stupid for Snape to think that he could have Lily smiling at his side while he serving Voldemort. But people do stupid things, and some of these stupid things are a symptom of love rather than a counterexample (though I don't think that really applies to this case) and they don't necessarily tell us anything about what a person knows or understands.

Snape acts rather selfishly and he puts Lily above everyone else. The former seems Snape's great flaw and the latter, in my opinion, is a rather reasonable result of the fact that she is the person he cares most about in the world and the person who has shown him the most kindness and given him the most joy. The great tragedy and flaw in this second case is that Snape is so lacking in compassion for and kinship with the rest of the world, and does not directly bare on his feelings for Lily. Snape did not seem love or care about many, if any, besides himself and Lily. This speaks for itself as a huge problem, but I don't think it really says that much about the goodness or appropriateness of his feelings for Lily. Snape's reaction to finding our that the Potter's are target is, I think, not altogether unnatural for many people apart from the fact that most people would react that way for more than one other. Snape cries and pleads for Lily's life because he cares for Lily and would be tormented by her death. If my wife were under attack at her parents home with them and her brothers, I would indeed care about the lives of everyone in that house. But, if it came down to it and I saw it as the most likely way to save her, you can bet that "Not Stacy!!" would be the first words out of my mouth and possible the only thing I would focus on in the moment. I think we can agree that it would be unlikely that Snape would, of his own accord march up to the Potter's and kill James and baby Harry, if only for fact that he would know that it would pain Lily. He also, I thing, might not have taken the prophecy to Voldemort if he had put the pieces together and known what it would lead to. Of course, Snape's actions are treacherous and unfeeling to others, but I don't think that this should lead to the assumption that his feelings for Lily were not good and primarily wholesome. Maybe he ripped the picture in half so that he could pretend James and Harry never existed. Maybe he kept it under his pillow and kissed it every night or photoshopped himself into it. We don't know. Maybe it was rash or even disrespectful gesture that was the product of umpteen odd years without seeing the one person he ever cared about. The way I see it, Snape definitely has a lot of issues, a lot of skeletons in his closet, and multiple vile tendencies. I just don't think that the relationship that was probably the one best thing in his life should be assumed to be one of them.

[mexicant]

You will not be asked again. Drop the "What if X was Y...?" discussions - this means no more of this "What if Harry had been Harriet?" discussion.

I'll be giving out nice little vacations from LS to any posters who ignore this second warning to drop this subject.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by leah49

True, people like that are not like that by choice (honestly, who would choose to be that way...if I had a choice...), but it's not always emotional problems or something from their childhood that causes this. Some people are just born with that personality, like any other personality.

That goes back to the old "nature" vs "nurture" argument. Our personalities are formed, for the most part, by our surroundings and by the way we are taught to view ourselves and our place in the overall scheme of things. If that is a positive message, then a child can grow up emotionally healthy and with a very positive and outgoing personality. If not, such as seems to be Severus' case, then the child can grow up untrusting, withdrawn, shy, and with little self-esteem. This can lead to being socially awkward, which Severus was and make it difficult for them to fit in and make friends. To me, this was why Lily's friendship was so important to him when they were children because she seemed to accept him the way he was.

And, yes, there are people born whose brains are just not wired right and they have no conscience, no concern for others at all, and usually end up becoming serial killers -- Bellatrix comes quickly to mind.

Sure, it was "before" but it all stems around the same thing. Lily was a target of Voldemort.

But, the timeline makes a difference. If Lily were already dead, Severus would have had no reason to go to Dumbledore. he wasn't seeking revenge. Even after Lily was killed, his first thoughts were not revenge they were that he didn't even want to go on. That doesn't seem like someone who wants revenge.

[Charlotte_Snape]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

But, the timeline makes a difference. If Lily were already dead, Severus would have had no reason to go to Dumbledore. he wasn't seeking revenge. Even after Lily was killed, his first thoughts were not revenge they were that he didn't even want to go on. That doesn't seem like someone who wants revenge.

Wish I had more time to chip in & discuss, but you brought up something that I always found odd: Snape doesn't seem to ever blame Voldemort for Lily's death

I know the first & most logical explanation is that he couldn't show it anyway because of his position as a spy, but I don't buy that explanation completely. People have pointed out the patronus scene from TPT as proof that he was doing it all for Lily, but how strange is that??? He's alone with the only person he can trust, and is told that the only way to defeat Voldemort - who killed Lily - is by letting Harry die. Voldemort has not only killed the woman he loves, but even atoning for his part in her death is impossible -- because of Voldemort.

I know why he was angry at Dumbledore (he mistakenly thought Dumbledore was aware of the soul-fragment thing from the very beginning), but one would think that over time, he would have developed more than a just little resentment towards the person who actually killed Lily (think of how he hated Sirius, and Sirius wasn't even the murderer). If Snape held any deep anger or hatred for Voldemort over Lily's murder, I think that it would have shown itself somehow either in this, or some other, scene.

My theory is also based on something Jo said about Snape in 2005:

Melissa Anelli: Oh, here`s one [from our forums] that I`ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

Now, I don't think anyone is more culpable for Lily's death than Voldemort. He's the one who systematically hunted her down & killed her, but I do understand what Jo is saying, and I get the feeling that her statement has very much to do with her conception of Snape, rather than her perception of him. Bascially, I think she is alluding that Snape felt he was more culpable than Voldemort.

I think it's possible that Snape - self-centered as he was - blamed himself totally for her death. True, he went after Sirius Black, but even this could simply be part of his desperate attempt to atone for his own crime.

Perhaps this has all been discussed before and I just missed it, I dunno. But I think this interpretation of Snape offers a second satisfactory explanation for ripping the photo: He sees James & Harry as something that never would have happened if he had chosen Lily over his friends. He might see Harry & James as some kind of alternate universe that never had to be a reality -- if only he had respected her & seen the error of his ways.

This is supported by something else Jo said about Snape: that given his time over again, Snape would not have become a Death Eater. I think that means that Snape actually had completely discard his old world-view by the end of his life. The scene at Grimmauld Place might've been the beginning of that -- or it could've been the final step of that long process.

One last thing Jo has said that might offer some insight into Snape is that Lily could have grown to love him as more than a friend if he had not become involved in Dark Magic:

JK: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.

I think the fact that she could have loved him also sheds light on the letter, and gives insight into his emotional release. He has just killed Dumbledore, and reads:

I don’t know how much to believe, actually, because it seems incredible that Dumbledore……could ever have been friends with Gellert Grindelwald. I think her mind’s going, personally!
Lots of love,
Lily

And it seems incredible that Lily could ever have been friends with Snape, doesn't it? I think it must have hurt to read about her happiness, and know that he could have had that with her if he had chosen differently, but the last line would have really hit home. To me, that makes it seem like this release was transformative. It was not so much about some puerile grudge, and conscious hatred directed at James & Harry, or an empty, twisted fixation on his "idea" of who Lily was -- it was about getting a taste of what he missed out on, and this might have been the poison that finally cured him.

I think tearing the picture was more of a way to symbolically turn back the hands of time, to a time when Lily was just a friend who had "lots of love" for him, and not out of her mind to be friends with him -- because he was not yet a Death Eater. And I think taking the picture and the letter was more about affirming his own identity ("I am Lily's friend. I am not a dark wizard"), and strenghtening his commitment to be a real friend to her from that point forward, and to do the right thing for the right reasons, even though she was gone.

Is it selfish? Do his actions lack empathy? Well, for sure, but that's perfectly in keeping with what we know about his character. I still think, tho, that killing DD & the letter were some watershed moments for Snape, and the reason he included it in his memories to Harry, and that Harry understood it as such...

So all in all, I think a lot of what Snape does can be interpreted by understanding the flip-side of being self-centered: unrealistically thinking that everything is your fault/taking all of the blame for a situation when something goes wrong/unrelenting feelings of shame (the idea that somehow the entire self is bad, repellent, & worthless) --> these are never healthy attitudes to have about yourself (contrast with Harry who does feel guilty for Sirius' death, but also gets angry at the world for it, and who righteously hates Bellatrix & Voldemort for what they did to the people he loved).

Also, constantly tormenting yourself by the "what ifs" (like everytime he looked at Harry), and all the woulda, coulda, shouldas about the past, basically beating yourself up eternally for your mistakes, to where you can never move on with your life, is also not healthy for the psyche. The subconcious always has ways of dealing with the things that we consciously supress, and I can easily see an over-burdened conscience finding relief from all that repressed self-hatred by unleashing cruel behavior on others.

So what do y'all think? Am I way off base?

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

He called her a mudblood in SWM - if that's not disrespectful I don't know what is.

I have always had trouble reckoning this. Is having respect for someone the same thing as never showing them anything but respectful behavior? The same question for love: does loving someone require that one always be loving in tone and manner? The problem for me is not what he called her, but why he did it.

Now I won't pretend at analyzing Snape's psychological condition during this scene, but I can tell you from having been in love that warmth and fuzziness are by no means guaranteed. I've said probably some of the most horrible things of my life to women I've loved. And why? Because sometimes the irrational desire to lash out and hurt is irresistible. He called her "mudblood"--but I would ask whether he did so as a threat, i.e., "some day you'll be eliminated by my friends, ha ha" or did he say it because it was the most hurtful thing he could think of?

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

He was also interested in joining a group of people who wanted to kill her while they were still friends.

I do not recall any allusions in the text to death threats against Lily while she was at school. You have a reasonable assumption here, but I think it may be over-generalized. I think in later years when Voldemort actually does come to power, it's curious that many of the murders and disappearances appear to involve political targets. That is to say, however oppressed and endangered they may have been, wholesale slaughter of Muggles or Muggleborns was not evidently a guiding policy of the regime. I'm not seeking an apologetic excuse for why Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters, but I think the desire for power and the opportunity to exercise sadism are separate though equally terrible motives from the anti-Muggle discrimination.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

He also didn't seem to care how she would feel when the two people she loved most in the world died.

I'm not really sure about this either... if you're referring to his effort or his intention to save Lily (while ignoring James and Harry) I think the context has been forgotten. Everything I can find in the text suggests that once Voldemort has made up his mind about something, there just isn't much anyone can do about it. Asking him to save one life would have been brazen enough, but as I said before Harry's life was just not negotiable, since he was the object of the entire action.

It's unclear to me whether Snape is really just oblivious to what kind of bond familial love creates (and he certainly is in his youth) or whether he's so desperate to save Lily he'll try anything, because he was clearly wrong about Lily if he thought she would walk away. Either way, I think the way you've phrased it is unfair, because it requires the reader to presume that a) Snape even understood Lily's feelings, and b) willfully disregarded them for his own benefit. More likely for me is that the same reason he never connected with her romantically contributes here: he's just not equipped to understand other people's feelings.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

The first words out of Severus' mouth when he and Dumbledore met on the hilltop were a plea for Dumbledore not to kill him.
So, he didn't even know if he would be able to ask for anything before either being AK'd (as there was a "shoot-to-kill policy with DEs at that time), or bundled off to Azkaban immediatley.

My own opinion is that Severus' did not feel that he owed Dumbledore for not killing him or for keeping him out of Azkaban, but, instead, for his agreement to protect Lily. I think he would have willingly gone on to Azkaban -- may have even expected to -- once he got that assurance.

But Dumbledore saw more use to him. And, I think we need to remind ourselves that Severus, too, was only in his early 20's and had the same foibles of anyone that age.

Really? Being a Death Eater is just a foible that anyone of his age would have?

The agreement of "anything" between the two of them was for Lily's (and her family's) safety. Once that was negated by her death, I think Severus had every right to say that he'd kept his side of the bargain and the other side failed to keep their's, and then to leave. But, he didn't.

Nothing in canon says or points to the "anything" being Lily's family as well. In fact, I think it points to the opposite. Snape doesn't care about James and only seems to care about Harry in terms of protecting Lily's son and making sure someone is there to get revenge on Voldemort.

I'll just say that people do grow up and mature.

Sure, but do we see that with Snape? I don't think bullying students shows growth and maturity.

That he didn't care what the consequences of the prophecy were, along with his not asking for James' and Harry's protection by Dumbledore, show that he had grown to not care about the plights of others.

Is that a good thing? He doesn't care about others. Wow. I want that guy in the Order right away. You're contradicting yourself here. You say the "always" points to Lily's family, but if Snape doesn't care about others than he doesn't care about Lily's family.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by NiteShade

Quote:
Originally Posted by leah49
Some people are just born with that personality, like any other personality.

I'm sorry to say I disagree, because I don't think anyone was born with their personality. People's minds are like "blank slate" (tabula rasa) when they are born, and the personalities came later, mainly from the early events of a person's life. The outcomes of the events and how the person choose to view it is what "sculpts" their personality, IMO.

When I was younger I used to believe in the blank slate theory as well. But experience has shown me otherwise. A friend has a son whose father died when he was an infant. This son has shown personality traits--and likes and dislikes--strikingly similar to his father right down to an odd way he blows his nose (and that his mother never told him about.) I've been involved with horse and dog breeders and they do selectively breed for temperment as well as physical traits. There is definitely a genetic component to personality. That said, I also think our choices can shape and/or overcome most personality deficits.

Perhaps Snape inherited personality traits from his parents that predisposed him to make some of the choices he did. I find it interesting that, unlike his father, when Snape became angry, the more softly he spoke. There are only a few instances where he outright raises his voice. That may have been a concious attempt on his part to overcome his nature and nuture--since he seems to have recieved a double dose.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by salazar71963

This discussion is on Snapes character,(not book vs movie) which is brought out both in the movie and in the book, this is not a book only discussion. Again, since Jo the creator of all the characters and complete story approves the script and screen writting before it is shot, and during it, it is one in the same and does not matter if it was in the book or not, The character of Snape is develope and portrayed in both.

This is a book forum. The Stone is not about the movies. It's about the books. Legilimency Studies is a subform of The Stone. I'm not a mod and if one says something different obviously you have to listen to him/her instead. I'm just giving my interpretation of the rules.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape

Is it selfish? Do his actions lack empathy? Well, for sure, but that's perfectly in keeping with what we know about his character. I still think, tho, that killing DD & the letter were some watershed moments for Snape, and the reason he included it in his memories to Harry, and that Harry understood it as such...

Very well put. To add, I think Snape was acting almost automatically and irrationally when he tore the photograph in two. The scene is highly thought provoking in that there is not a straight forward, clear cut motive behind Snape's actions: on one hand, we see a traumatised, grieving man being moved by a woman he loved for arguably most or indeed all of his adult life, yet he is also seemingly deliberately altering and near destroying something that would've meant a great deal to someone when intact; Sirius and Remus, for example and, during the time Snape rips it, Harry himself. In my opinon, the scene can't be viewed as one or the other; these contradictory messages or co-existing in that one action. I think Snape knew this and he purposefully included that particular memory for Harry to show that, even though he was working for the Order, his life was still riddled with mistakes- he wanted Harry to realise he was capable of both good and bad at the same time. The two cases are completely different, but Harry breaking Sirius's mirror in OOTP shows that everyone is able to do something they would later regret, especially when grieving.

Just my opinion.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

That goes back to the old "nature" vs "nurture" argument. Our personalities are formed, for the most part, by our surroundings and by the way we are taught to view ourselves and our place in the overall scheme of things. If that is a positive message, then a child can grow up emotionally healthy and with a very positive and outgoing personality. If not, such as seems to be Severus' case, then the child can grow up untrusting, withdrawn, shy, and with little self-esteem. This can lead to being socially awkward, which Severus was and make it difficult for them to fit in and make friends. To me, this was why Lily's friendship was so important to him when they were children because she seemed to accept him the way he was.

I think personality is both nurture and nature. It's a combination of how we're raised, who we're raised by, where we're raised, and purely genetics. Some things we cannot control and we're going to turn out certain ways no matter what.

And, yes, there are people born whose brains are just not wired right and they have no conscience, no concern for others at all, and usually end up becoming serial killers -- Bellatrix comes quickly to mind.

Yes, Bellatrix. Well, I think she could have grown up in the Potters home and still be evil so that would show nature/genetics, imo (anyway, this isn't the Bellatrix thread, so let's not get in trouble by discussing her anymore!)

But, the timeline makes a difference. If Lily were already dead, Severus would have had no reason to go to Dumbledore. he wasn't seeking revenge. Even after Lily was killed, his first thoughts were not revenge they were that he didn't even want to go on. That doesn't seem like someone who wants revenge.

Why does the timeline make a difference? Snape knew Voldemort was going to go after Lily. He goes to Dumbledore to ask for his protection. When Lily dies at Voldemort's hand that's when Snape wants Voldemort to lose. I believe at that point he realized Voldemort wasn't who he was thought he was. I don't understand how going to Dumbledore before Lily dies changes anything. It doesn't show me that Snape has changed his opinion of Voldemort before he kills Lily. It just shows me that Snape wants some protection for Lily and that Dumbledore is the man he thinks can do it.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

When I was younger I used to believe in the blank slate theory as well.

Oh, I don't believe in the blank slate theory, I just believe that genetics definitely plays a part in personality. It's not all nurture.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I don't think he really gave much thought to anything other than just having that picture of Lily -- after all, it was only a photograph in a deserted house that he didn't have any idea anyone would ever return to.

I wonder if that's the same rationale Mundungus gave for ransacking and plundering the same abandoned house in HBP?

Originally Posted by salazar71963

This discussion is on Snapes character,(not book vs movie) which is brought out both in the movie and in the book, this is not a book only discussion. Again, since Jo the creator of all the characters and complete story approves the script and screen writting before it is shot, and during it, it is one in the same and does not matter if it was in the book or not, The character of Snape is develope and portrayed in both.

The books are canon, the movie adaptations are not. The movie version of both events and characters differ, so the movies are not, IMO, a valid source for analysing the characters as they are in the books.

Originally Posted by MCDahB

To say that Snape couldn't have known Lily because he became a death eater or was cruel to Harry is to imply that no one ever does anything that they know will or would hurt someone they love. But people do it all the time.

People do not join terrorist organisations that target people of their loved one's origin all the time. I cannot see how Snape justified to himself the act of supporting and later joining the DEs. I cannot see how he reconciled that with his love for Lily, who was vehemently opposed to the evil he was embracing.

But people do stupid things, and some of these stupid things are a symptom of love rather than a counterexample (though I don't think that really applies to this case) and they don't necessarily tell us anything about what a person knows or understands.

I can't see joining the DEs as a symptom of any kind of love. And I consider it far more than stupid - I consider joining such an organisation at all to be an evil action.

The great tragedy and flaw in this second case is that Snape is so lacking in compassion for and kinship with the rest of the world, and does not directly bare on his feelings for Lily.

Not caring whether the people who matter most to Lily shows little compassion to Lily, either.

Snape cries and pleads for Lily's life because he cares for Lily and would be tormented by her death.

It's a pity he never considered that other people would be tormented by grief by the actions of him and his fellow Death Eaters. It's a pity that he never considered that no matter who Voldemort chose, there would be people tormented by grief. In that sense, I think it serves Snape right that he had to experience the pain he was willing to cause to others.

If my wife were under attack at her parents home with them and her brothers, I would indeed care about the lives of everyone in that house. But, if it came down to it and I saw it as the most likely way to save her, you can bet that "Not Stacy!!" would be the first words out of my mouth and possible the only thing I would focus on in the moment.

Lily was not Snape's wife. She had her own family, whom she loved. She had chosen not to have a Death Eater in her life (that she knew of, anyhow). Snape didn't just find out that Lily and her family were in danger - he put them in that danger. Snape's actions strike me as being rather like a person who builds a bomb for his terrorist organisation, not caring who it will be used against and then thinking he has been wronged when the bomb will be used against a person he cares for.

He also, I thing, might not have taken the prophecy to Voldemort if he had put the pieces together and known what it would lead to.

Passing on the prophecy did not suddenly become wrong when Voldemort chose Lily's family. It was wrong, no matter who Voldemort chose. Snape would not have taken the prophecy if he knew it would endanger Lily, but that still makes him no better than the man who didn't care whose lives were destroyed until he was impaled upon his own sword. Funny how that happens to a lot of characters in HP.

Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape

Now, I don't think anyone is more culpable for Lily's death than Voldemort. He's the one who systematically hunted her down & killed her, but I do understand what Jo is saying, and I get the feeling that her statement has very much to do with her conception of Snape, rather than her perception of him. Bascially, I think she is alluding that Snape felt he was more culpable than Voldemort.

I don't think she is saying that Snape felt more culpable, I think she is saying that he was more culpable. Not necessarily for Lily and James' deaths, but for his actions in general. Voldemort never knew love, and so could not empathise. Snape loved Lily, and still could not empathise with the victims of his crimes. Not until he himself was about to experience the suffering he was willing to cause others.

Perhaps this has all been discussed before and I just missed it, I dunno. But I think this interpretation of Snape offers a second satisfactory explanation for ripping the photo: He sees James & Harry as something that never would have happened if he had chosen Lily over his friends. He might see Harry & James as some kind of alternate universe that never had to be a reality -- if only he had respected her & seen the error of his ways.

That does strike me as ripping the family apart. It strikes me as resenting Harry's existence. Harry and James were Lily's reality, the one she wanted and chose, whatever ideas Snape may have had or wished for.

And it seems incredible that Lily could ever have been friends with Snape, doesn't it? I think it must have hurt to read about her happiness, and know that he could have had that with her if he had chosen differently, but the last line would have really hit home.

It hurt him to know that Lily was happy? That strikes me as selfish. Lily made her choice clear - she was going to fight against the evil that Snape was embracing at the time.

To me, that makes it seem like this release was transformative. It was not so much about some puerile grudge, and conscious hatred directed at James & Harry, or an empty, twisted fixation on his "idea" of who Lily was -- it was about getting a taste of what he missed out on, and this might have been the poison that finally cured him.

A "taste" of what he missed out on? Lily was not some object for Snape to possess. She was free to make her own choices, she was not some pretty little trinket.

I think tearing the picture was more of a way to symbolically turn back the hands of time, to a time when Lily was just a friend who had "lots of love" for him, and not out of her mind to be friends with him -- because he was not yet a Death Eater. And I think taking the picture and the letter was more about affirming his own identity ("I am Lily's friend. I am not a dark wizard"), and strenghtening his commitment to be a real friend to her from that point forward, and to do the right thing for the right reasons, even though she was gone.

So all in all, I think a lot of what Snape does can be interpreted by understanding the flip-side of being self-centered: unrealistically thinking that everything is your fault/taking all of the blame for a situation when something goes wrong/unrelenting feelings of shame (the idea that somehow the entire self is bad, repellent, & worthless) -->

I don't see this in Snape. Snape's problems always seem to be with the actions of others - take the prophecy - it was wrong because Voldemort chose Lily, not because Snape gave him the prophecy and put a family in danger. I don't see that Snape takes all of the blame, I see that he wishes to blame others.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

And why? Because sometimes the irrational desire to lash out and hurt is irresistible. He called her "mudblood"--but I would ask whether he did so as a threat, i.e., "some day you'll be eliminated by my friends, ha ha" or did he say it because it was the most hurtful thing he could think of?

Whatever his reasons for doing it, telling Lily that she was subhuman scum is not something that a genuine respectful friend does. And that is exactly what "mudblood" means. There is absolutely no positive connotation to that word and absolutely no valid gorunds for using it at somebody. Whatever the reason for its use, its meaning makes it inherently disrespectful.

I do not recall any allusions in the text to death threats against Lily while she was at school. You have a reasonable assumption here, but I think it may be over-generalized. I think in later years when Voldemort actually does come to power, it's curious that many of the murders and disappearances appear to involve political targets. That is to say, however oppressed and endangered they may have been, wholesale slaughter of Muggles or Muggleborns was not evidently a guiding policy of the regime. I'm not seeking an apologetic excuse for why Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters, but I think the desire for power and the opportunity to exercise sadism are separate though equally terrible motives from the anti-Muggle discrimination.

The war lasted eleven years. When Snape was in his fifth year, people feared to say Voldemort's name. I cannot imagine that the war was nothing but shadow boxing up for ten years. Lives were being destroyed - he didn't become "You-Know-Who" for nothing.

I'm not really sure about this either... if you're referring to his effort or his intention to save Lily (while ignoring James and Harry) I think the context has been forgotten.

I am referring to his request to Dumbledore, not his request to Voldemort. He asked Dumbledore only for Lily's safety. Her family did not come into it. Dumbledore analysed Snape's attitude as "they can die as long as you get what you want." Is Dumbledore only to be correct when he speaks of his trust in Snape??

Either way, I think the way you've phrased it is unfair, because it requires the reader to presume that a) Snape even understood Lily's feelings, and b) willfully disregarded them for his own benefit.

I can't see it any other way. Snape joined a group of terrorists who were persecuting and murdering Muggleborns - to me, that cannot show anything good. It shows either a lack of understanding for Lily's feelings, or a disregard for them. If he had understood or heeded Lily's feelings, he would never have joined the creeps who were trying to destroy people like her. I don't see any other way to reconcile his actions with his feelings for Lily. Lily abhorred the Death Eaters and the evil they perpetrated - and yet Snape joined them. I don't see the slightest regard for Lily's feelings in that.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Perhaps Snape inherited personality traits from his parents that predisposed him to make some of the choices he did. I find it interesting that, unlike his father, when Snape became angry, the more softly he spoke. There are only a few instances where he outright raises his voice. That may have been a concious attempt on his part to overcome his nature and nuture--since he seems to have recieved a double dose.

I think Snape's treatment of others reflects his father's behaviour. He doesn't raise his voice, much, but his treatment of others is cruel, and leaves a lot to be desired, IMO.

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

The two cases are completely different, but Harry breaking Sirius's mirror in OOTP shows that everyone is able to do something they would later regret, especially when grieving.

The difference being, the mirror belonged to Harry. The photograph was not Snape's to destroy. That was a family photograph, a photograph of the family Lily loved.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

There is no canon on this whatsoever. It can even be argued that one reason he kept attacking James in seventh year was because he was dating Lily.

I'm not seeing in canon where it says Snape attacks James in seventh year. Would you provide a reference for me so I can catch up? Thanks.

[Melaszka]

The next person to start bickering about what this thread is for/what is or is not canon/to start bickering generally/to engage in meta-discussions of any kind will get forum-banned. is this clear?

[MinervasCat]

Wow, Charlotte and canismajoris, both of you bring up some really interesting points about different aspects of Severus' character. Let's see if I can add my two cents without it becoming mindnumbingly long:

Charlotte:

I agree that Severus blamed himself, primarily, for Lily's death, but I see that not so much "self-centered" as "self-deprecating," and as an echo of his childhood. I'd say that he'd felt Tobias' wrath on several occasions even though whatever happened wasn't really his fault. Blaming others is a standard tool of abusers.

As for blaming/hating Voldemort - I don't think Severus could allow himself that luxury of hating LV because it would have left him vulnerable. I'm thinking his emotions would have run so deep if he had, there would have been no way of hiding it during Voldy's little "brain scans." I remember how he cautioned Harry over and over during the Occlumency lessons about emotions and how they could be used as weapons. Not allowing himself to deeply hate Voldemort was just one less thing he had to worry about hiding and one less weapon Voldemort had to use against him.

After reading TPT I thought I understood Severus' interactions with Sirius a lot better. Basically, each thought they had their own good reasons to dislike the other starting out.

Now, add onto that Severus risking his life to go to Dumbledore and plead for Lily's safety once he found out Harry was Voldy's target and knew she'd try to protect him. Then, how he'd even swallowed his hatred for James and accepted that he and Harry should fall under that protection as well, and sealed the deal by promising "anything."

He knew how powerful Dumbledore was and more than likely felt relieved that Lily would then be kept safe. But, she was killed anyway, and Sirius Black, James' best friend, had (as far as anyone knew) betrayed her. Dump that on top of what he already felt about Sirius and it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. POOF! Even after he found out Sirius wasn't guilty of the betrayal, there was still a mutual deep dislike from their school days.

I can't even imagine the emotions that filled him when he found the picture and Lily's letter at Grimmauld Place. I thought that they gave him something physical to hold onto at a moment when he truly needed comfort. I wasn't surprised he tore James off, and seeing little Harry was just another reminder that all the years of protecting him had been to just get him to the right time to die. So, he ripped the picture in two and held on to the part with Lily because he needed to see the face of the only person he'd probably ever loved. I don't know if he went through the "what if's" or not, or just held the picture and thought about how much he missed her and the simpler days of their lives.

canismajoris:

There's an old song, "You Always Hurt the One You Love," and that seems to be what you're saying. I fully agree with you that we sometimes strike out and say the most terrible things to people we care the most about. I think the reason is that they are the ones who can hurt us the most, as well. It is, IMO, part of human nature to say things in times of stress, frustration, and/or humiliation that we wouldn't say any other time, and to not mean them but just use them as weapons to try to make ourselves feel less vulnerable.

As for any of the budding DEs trying to harm Lily while they were in school together, I think that Severus would have done anything within his power to protect her at that time. Sectum Sempra was listed "for enemies," and, IMO anyone who had tried to hurt or kill Lily Evans would have fallen under that category, including DEs old and young.

Your point about Severus and familial love: I'm not sure he'd ever experienced it, so it was something he probably would have had a difficult time relating to. It doesn't seem that he had a very loving relationship with either parent, and, I don't think Eileen ever threw herself between him and Tobias. Of course that's speculation, but I base it on the snippets we see of Severus' childhood. She seemed like she had her hands full just getting by.

While I'm sure that Severus loved Lily deeply, I still don't think he ever truly envisioned them "romantically" involved because I don't think he thought she could love him other than as a friend. I don't say he wouldn't have wanted to be, but I think he accepted that as beautiful and popular as she was, he didn't have much chance there, and was just grateful to have her as a friend.

Why, then, did he let the Dark Arts come between them? Again, human nature. We don't always see things the way others do. He didn't see the threats of the Dark Arts the way Lily did because, IMO, he was studying them to learn to control them. I think he felt confident that he could do that. And, again, just studying the Dark Arts didn't mean that he was studying them to use them negatively. In order to defend against them you have to know what they are and how they work. I think Lily was afraid he was studying them to use them as a DE. I'm not sure why she was so convinced he was going to actually become a DE. I think that shows that maybe neither of them knew the other as well as they thought.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

The difference being, the mirror belonged to Harry. The photograph was not Snape's to destroy. That was a family photograph, a photograph of the family Lily loved.

Yes, of course. I was just using the two instances as an example where, in circumstances of extreme grief, something that meant a lot to another person(s) and also the person who damaged the object was destroyed.

I think Snape's treatment of others reflects his father's behaviour.

That's an interesting point. All being speculative, of course, but perhaps some aspects of Snape's harsh treatment of students stemmed from the drive coming from Snape's character: he most likely spent most of his homelife being scared of Tobias (the 'little boy crying in the corner' in OOTP). Therefore, part of his desire to become a Death Eater could've been for him to be feared, instead of vice versa. When he promised Dumbledore 'anything' on the hilltop and changed allegiances, this wanting to be feared perhaps 'bled' into the way he taught, at least, some bits of it.

Just my opinion and interpretation.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I'm not seeing in canon where it says Snape attacks James in seventh year. Would you provide a reference for me so I can catch up? Thanks.

I haven't got the book to hand right now, but it's in OotP, when Harry speaks to Sirius and Lupin after seeing SWM.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

There's an old song, "You Always Hurt the One You Love," and that seems to be what you're saying. I fully agree with you that we sometimes strike out and say the most terrible things to people we care the most about. I think the reason is that they are the ones who can hurt us the most, as well. It is, IMO, part of human nature to say things in times of stress, frustration, and/or humiliation that we wouldn't say any other time, and to not mean them but just use them as weapons to try to make ourselves feel less vulnerable.

It doesn't mean the one you "love" should put up with hurtful behaviour or kid themselves that hurtful behaviour is a sign of love. People hurt the ones they love, but hurting people is not a loving behaviour nor is it a sign of love.
If Snape's way of making himself feel better/less vulnerable is to lash out and hurt Lily, then I think that was a "friendship" she was much better off away from.

As for any of the budding DEs trying to harm Lily while they were in school together, I think that Severus would have done anything within his power to protect her at that time. Sectum Sempra was listed "for enemies," and, IMO anyone who had tried to hurt or kill Lily Evans would have fallen under that category, including DEs old and young.

Perhaps he asked his DE wannabe pals to leave her out of it? Perhaps they humoured him because he was useful? Snape did not do everything in his power to protect Lily - the very act of joining the DEs put Lily in danger. Every Muggleborn was in danger from DEs.

While I'm sure that Severus loved Lily deeply, I still don't think he ever truly envisioned them "romantically" involved because I don't think he thought she could love him other than as a friend. I don't say he wouldn't have wanted to be, but I think he accepted that as beautiful and popular as she was, he didn't have much chance there, and was just grateful to have her as a friend.

I think that was what Snape was hoping for. There's no indication that Snape accepted it wouldn't happen at the time they were still friends. I don't think looks came into it, I don't see what Lily's appearance and popularity have to do with anything.

Why, then, did he let the Dark Arts come between them? Again, human nature. We don't always see things the way others do. He didn't see the threats of the Dark Arts the way Lily did because, IMO, he was studying them to learn to control them.

Indeed, Death Eaters need to be able to control their Dark Magic in order to cause the harm they do. It wouldn't be great for them if they pulled a Crabbe on it, Voldemort's numbers would deplete fairly quickly then.

I think he felt confident that he could do that. And, again, just studying the Dark Arts didn't mean that he was studying them to use them negatively. In order to defend against them you have to know what they are and how they work. I think Lily was afraid he was studying them to use them as a DE. I'm not sure why she was so convinced he was going to actually become a DE. I think that shows that maybe neither of them knew the other as well as they thought.

I certainly think Snape did not know Lily. If he did, he would have understood that she could not accept anything to do with bigotry or Death Eaters in her life.
And Lily's suspicions were correct - Snape did go on to become a DE, along with his dangerous friends - the friends she warned him about. IMO, Lily had grounds to believe Snape was planning on becoming a DE - he was hanging around with a group of bigots. He used the very worst racial epithet against her, at a time when Muggleborns were being persecuted.

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

Yes, of course. I was just using the two instances as an example where, in circumstances of extreme grief, something that meant a lot to another person(s) and also the person who damaged the object was destroyed.

I don't see it. The mirror was given to Harry, and he broke it in anger. The photo did not belong to Snape, he destroyed the photo and took Lily's image with him. It was not his to take - that was a family photograph, a photograph of a family destroyed by his actions.

Therefore, part of his desire to become a Death Eater could've been for him to be feared, instead of vice versa. When he promised Dumbledore 'anything' on the hilltop and changed allegiances, this wanting to be feared perhaps 'bled' into the way he taught, at least, some bits of it.

I think fear was a part of Snape's life - he acted to instill fear - I can see that he may have wanted to be feared as a DE. I can also see that maybe, in Snape's mind, fear and respect were synonymous - I think his teaching shows that attitude also.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I don't see it. The mirror was given to Harry, and he broke it in anger. The photo did not belong to Snape, he destroyed the photo and took Lily's image with him. It was not his to take - that was a family photograph, a photograph of a family destroyed by his actions.

I did not mean to imply that the photograph was 'Snape's to take'- the two cases are, indeed, extremely different; I was merely highlighting that the perhaps only similarity was that objects with a lot of emotional, weighty connotations were destroyed when one was grieving, albeit, the reactions were different.

Just my opinion and perspective, however.

I think fear was a part of Snape's life - he acted to instill fear - I can see that he may have wanted to be feared as a DE. I can also see that maybe, in Snape's mind, fear and respect were synonymous - I think his teaching shows that attitude also.

Yes, and that could be why, in his 5th year (I think- the conversation he was with Lily about Mucliber etc), he couldn't see why Lily was shocked by his 'friends' behaviour; he thought such an act made a person seem powerful, who commanded a certain degree of respect. Of course, he eventually realised how very wrong he was.

Just my opinion.

[FurryDice]

[quote]

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

I did not mean to imply that the photograph was 'Snape's to take'- the two cases are, indeed, extremely different; I was merely highlighting that the perhaps only similarity was that objects with a lot of emotional, weighty connotations were destroyed when one was grieving, albeit, the reactions were different.

Just my opinion and perspective, however.

I think I see, now, but Harry destroyed the mirror out of anger and grief. Snape destoyed the photo and took what he wanted. Both objects had emotional significance and both were destroyed, those are the only similarities I see.

Yes, and that could be why, in his 5th year (I think- the conversation he was with Lily about Mucliber etc), he couldn't see why Lily was shocked by his 'friends' behaviour; he thought such an act made a person seem powerful, who commanded a certain degree of respect. Of course, he eventualyl realised how very wrong he was.

Going by Snape's behaviour as a teacher, I don't think he did come to see the difference between respect and fear.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Going by Snape's behaviour as a teacher, I don't think he did come to see the difference between respect and fear.

No, perhaps not, but he did finally recognise that what the Death Eaters were doing was immoral, in my opinion. It's yet another 'opposite' aspect of Snape's character, I feel: he spends most of his adult life fighting for Dumbledore, trying to bring Voldemort down yet he doesn't apply his realisation regarding the Death Eaters that making many fear you does not command respect to his treatment of students when teaching. His character is just always full of contradictions.

Just my opinion.

[MinervasCat]

In regards to "destroying" a family photograph, if Severus had been someone just coming into a deserted house and pilfering through things to find stuff to sell and enrich himself with, that would have been one thing. That is what Mundungus did. He looted Grimmauld Place to find things to sell and make money for himself. Nothing that he took, as far as we know, had any sentimental value to him whatsoever.

But, IMO, Severus entered Grimmauld Place as a refugee. He had just killed Dumbledore. Not only was he carrying that guilt -- and, I do think that, even though it was agreed upon and he knew it was the right/necessary thing to do, that Severus still felt guilty for killing his only friend -- he was also right up there with Voldemort as "The Most Hated Wizard in the Wizarding World." He was being forced back into a life that he had left 15 years before and was going to have to act like he belonged among the DEs, which I think had become abhorrent to him by that time (we know he made the statement to Dumbledore about only watching those die that he could not save).

In addition, he had been told that the boy he'd spent the last six years protecting, in part as repentance/reparation for his part in Lily's death, would have to die and that he was going to have to be the one to tell him when. We see his anger with Dumbledore at this time, so we know that finding out Harry had to die affected him deeply. IMO, he was also disappointed in Dumbledore for "raising him like a pig for slaughter." Maybe he, like Harry, thought that Dumbledore was able to fix everything and should be able to fix that as well.

So, at this time I see Severus at one of the lowest points of his entire life...probably just 1/2 notch above the moment he learned of Lily's death. I don't think he is thinking as rationally as someone under normal circumstances. He sees a picture of Lily, smiling. As I said earlier, I'm not sure what emotions were running through him at that time, but I'd say a lot, as we see him weeping over the picture. Exactly what he was thinking, we don't know. But, under the circumstances (i.e., Sirius is dead and Harry will be dead soon and will not be returning to Grimmauld Place) I don't see tearing an old photograph in two as such a huge and terrible act. I just see a distraught and hopeless man seeking a bit of comfort from a picture and signature of someone he dearly loved. He was not in any way going to materially gain from it. There was no one coming there (who was left?) who would really care. It was just another piece of paper on a pile of other papers. But, it was dear to him, and maybe it helped him get through what he had to face over the next year.