Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Being unable to hide his role in Dumbledore's death was a huge thing, I think - it meant he had to face exactly what people thought of him in the aftermath. It meant that he had to face up to exactly what choices he made that had led him to be in that situation, perhaps. Maybe it also occurred to him that this was the kind of public loathing he would have faced sixteen years earlier if it had not been for Dumbledore's protection.

I think Snape got almost nothing but public loathing. He was mistreated by his father, disliked by Petunia, hated at school, despised for being a death eater, then after Voldemort's fall he was loathed and distrusted by death eaters and everyone else because he had been a death eater but escaped being sent to Azkaban. Besides his mother, the only person who liked him was Lily.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think Snape got almost nothing but public loathing. He was mistreated by his father, disliked by Petunia, hated at school, despised for being a death eater, then after Voldemort's fall he was loathed and distrusted by death eaters and everyone else because he had been a death eater but escaped being sent to Azkaban. Besides his mother, the only person who liked him was Lily.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. He seems to have had friends in his own house when he was a schoolboy. From the way Narcissa treats him in HBP and his own sympathy for her and Lucius revealed in the Prince's Tale, I get the impression that, on some level, he had a warm friendship with the Malfoys as an adult. And, while he might not be Mr Popular at Hogwarts as a teacher, his relationship with the other staff seems cordial enough until the killing of Dumbledore (e.g. Lupin "neither like[s] nor dislike[s] Severus Snape", Hagrid at first refuses to believe that Snape killed Dumbledore and thinks Harry must be mistaken). His relationships with Dumbledore and Filch seem quite good. He also seems popular enough with his Slytherin students.

He may not have had the happiest of social lives, but this seems to me a long way from "nothing but public loathing".

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. He seems to have had friends in his own house when he was a schoolboy. From the way Narcissa treats him in HBP and his own sympathy for her and Lucius revealed in the Prince's Tale, I get the impression that, on some level, he had a warm friendship with the Malfoys as an adult. And, while he might not be Mr Popular at Hogwarts as a teacher, his relationship with the other staff seems cordial enough until the killing of Dumbledore (e.g. Lupin "neither like[s] nor dislike[s] Severus Snape", Hagrid at first refuses to believe that Snape killed Dumbledore and thinks Harry must be mistaken). His relationships with Dumbledore and Filch seem quite good. He also seems popular enough with his Slytherin students.

He may not have had the happiest of social lives, but this seems to me a long way from "nothing but public loathing".

You've raised an interesting question (well to me anyway). Might we consider here the difference between Snape's external reality and his internal condition? I'm glad you pointed out that indeed, Snape did appear have opportunities to feel respected. But I can't think of many instances where he convincingly acted as though he had earned anyone's esteem.

In other words, if he did have friends and the respect of his peers, did he ever realize or acknowledge it to himself? In a sense he seems to be stuck in a state of constantly trying to prove his worth while completely ignoring the fruits of what worth he has.

I can see this namely in his relationship with Lily, where he was obsessed with defeating James instead of being focused on nurturing the relationship he already had with her. They were really very close friends, but he exhibits little but insecurity (and thereby unreasonable possessiveness, paranoia, and ultimately, it seems, resentment). Once he actually loses Lily, the former fears are no longer relevant, and he is left only with resentment toward James and (I believe) toward himself.

His behavior toward students might also echo this tendency... his abuse of authority, whether his mistreatment of certain students or his favoritism toward Slytherins, all smacks of demonstrating his relative power to those beneath him. Yet this is a hollow and likely unsatisfying tack, I think. Even when Snape appears to be enjoying tormenting Harry, I wonder if what's going on inside him is merely some sort of psychological medication: by punishing Harry he is punishing James by proxy, and therefore during that brief period he is not punishing himself.

Anyway, I'm not claiming to have fully reasoned any of my thoughts here, but lately I've had trouble understanding how some posters have a tendency to believe in Snape's innocence, some in his redemption, while others conclude that he was always fully culpable. Maybe it's just because Snape himself appears to have been unable to resolve the same problem. He sought approval but repeatedly denied it to himself, and he acted very inappropriately while attempting to atone for his past. I think his heart was in the right place, but if he never forgave himself he was never going to forgive James either. Harry suffered for this, but also strangely benefited--as did the rest of wizarding society.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

So, ater he left the DEs, he was unaware that someone who can support something so terrible needs serious help? Is that denial?

Yes and Yes.

Many people who suffer from emotional and.or mental problems do not seek help until they reach a crisis - often referred to as a nervous breakdown. Many people think that such problems are a sign of weakness and I believe Snape may have been of this opinion.

And he would not have been stuck in a job he hated if his first choice of career was not organised crime.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I am looking at the reasons why he behaved the way he did and being in a job for which he was not suitable would certainly have been a contributing factor to his severe character.

I wouldn't say that Voldemort et al were in organised crime. That implies smuggling, money laundering nd other unsavoury activities that I won't go into here. Voldemort was more an extremist political figure with an ethnic cleansing agenda who was prepared to use extreme violence to achieve his ends and eventually lead a coup against the Ministry and seized power behind a puppet minister. I don't think that Severus knew what he was getting into as a budding Death Eater in much the same way as Regulus didn't know what he was getting into. Severus wanted to feel empowered and beleived that he could achieve that by becomong a death eater. He realised his mistake and felt great remorse. IMO people who realise their mistakes and learn from them deserve a second chance which is what Dumbledore gave him.

Snape was working to protect Harry, that's a canon fact. However, it does not change or minimise the vindictiveness of his behaviour. Snape's actions as a spy do not cancel out his bullying of Harry, Hermione and Neville, IMO.

I wasn't sugesting that Snape's work protecting Harry minimises the vindictiveness of his behaviour, nor do I think that Snape's actions as a spy "cancel out" his bullying. What I am saying is that if one believes someone is "evil" and working against you then you will have a different view of their actions than if you believe they are "good" and working with you. Behaviour which seems acceptable in a hero may seems unacceptable in a villain. For example Severus wanted to find out what the Marauders were up to and so he followed them around and spied on them, which is seen as a bad thing; however this is exactly what Harry does when he is convinced that Draco is up to something. Similarly, when Ron and Harry fly the car to Hogwarts Snape goes ballistic at them and threatens them with expulsion; Molly sends a howler with very similar wording to that which Snape used.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

He may not have had the happiest of social lives, but this seems to me a long way from "nothing but public loathing".

OK, you got me there. I don't think there was a time when he wasn't loathed by someone, but there were other people around who didn't hate him, or at least reserved judgment.

I think Dumbledore respected him, but I'm not sure whether they would have been friends if they weren't colleagues. I think it was Dumbledore's trust that inspired Lupin, Hagrid and McGonagall to trust Snape, but I don't know whether any of them liked him for himself.

Snape did have years of loathing before killing Dumbledore, and plenty of time alone with his thoughts as he doesn't appear to have had any close friends since Lily. I don't think he'd have felt remorse for killing Dumbledore, however much he regretted having done it, because it was what Dumbledore wanted, and it helped him carry on his mission.

I think various people were cordial towards Snape, but we don't see anyone who took genuine pleasure in his company except Lily. We heard about his friends at school, but we don't know how they felt about him. I'm not sure how much his Slytherin students liked him as a person, rather than as a teacher who was favourable to them - Draco mistrusted Snape in HBP.

I'm not sure how cordial he really was with the Malfoys because it was always in his interest to maintain contact. Lucius Malfoy was an influential man, and later Snape was a spy. It was also in the Malfoys' interest to know someone in contact with Dumbledore, even before Draco went to Hogwarts. Before Philosopher's Stone Fudge was in the habit of consulting Dumbledore about every decision, so Dumbledore was a man to watch. Any of his DE contacts after he switched loyalties could be suspect

Snape seems to be a person one could easily dislike on sight - like Petunia, James, Sirius and Ron did - and to have been unpopular at school quite apart from the marauders.

I think if being disliked was going to make him a reformed character, he had many opportunities. I don't think other people's disapproval mattered to him as much as his own assessment of a situation.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

OK, you got me there. I don't think there was a time when he wasn't loathed by someone, but there were other people around who didn't hate him, or at least reserved judgment.

I guess I see him differently. I think he and McGonagall were both strong personalities and shared an interest in the protection of the students. I think they had a friendly house rivalry, and she respected his judgment. None of the professors seemed to really dislike him (except fake Moody). Lupin said he neither liked nor disliked him. Flitwick cried in front of him at the staff meeting when Ginny was taken. Hagrid defended him. Slughorn put his arm around him at the Slug Club party. Even Umbridge liked him until he couldn't provide her with Veritaserum.

The Malfoy's seemed to genuinely like and trust him for the most part as well. Draco had a "stress" breakdown at the end, when he thought Snape was after glory, but even DD didn't see that one coming. Draco had always looked up to him.

The Weasley parents seemed quite friendly with him was well.

All of this is before Snape AK's DD, of course.

The main issue that I saw was that Snape himself chose to be alone and kept everyone at arm's length. He shut himself off.

[FurryDice]

[quote]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I am looking at the reasons why he behaved the way he did and being in a job for which he was not suitable would certainly have been a contributing factor to his severe character.

I'm agreeing that teaching was not a suitable career for Snape, and I'm also pointing out exactly why he was stuck in a job he disliked.

I wouldn't say that Voldemort et al were in organised crime. That implies smuggling, money laundering nd other unsavoury activities that I won't go into here. Voldemort was more an extremist political figure with an ethnic cleansing agenda who was prepared to use extreme violence to achieve his ends and eventually lead a coup against the Ministry and seized power behind a puppet minister.

I suppose terrorists would be a more apt term for the DEs than an organised crime group.

But their crimes were organised, and had a recognised leader, and they were a group who carried out planned atrocities and crimes, as well as murders for "fun".

I don't think that Severus knew what he was getting into as a budding Death Eater in much the same way as Regulus didn't know what he was getting into. Severus wanted to feel empowered and beleived that he could achieve that by becomong a death eater.

Snape is shown to be intelligent. I think it would take an idiot not to realise what the DEs were. Voldemort was already known as You-Know-Who by Snape's fifth year. That says that he and his followers had been terrorising the population to the extent that people feared his name. People were living in fear of these dangerous criminals, and I think it would take an idiot not to be aware of that, and Snape was certainly not an idiot.

He realised his mistake and felt great remorse. IMO people who realise their mistakes and learn from them deserve a second chance which is what Dumbledore gave him.

Snape did not realise his mistake at the time he went to Dumbledore, IMO - he realised that Lily was in danger. He didn't want someone he cared about to die. That is not the same as recognising that joining a group of genocidal terrorists at all is wrong. I think that realisation came much later for Snape.

As for second chances, it is regrettable that he is unable to give Harry a first chance, even after the massive second chance he himself was given.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think various people were cordial towards Snape, but we don't see anyone who took genuine pleasure in his company except Lily. We heard about his friends at school, but we don't know how they felt about him. I'm not sure how much his Slytherin students liked him as a person, rather than as a teacher who was favourable to them - Draco mistrusted Snape in HBP.

If Snape is not going to make an effort to be sociable, is it surprising that other people don't take pleasure in his company? And he got on well with the Hogwarts staff (apart from DADA teachers). How exactly are they supposed to show pleasure in his company?

I'm not sure how cordial he really was with the Malfoys because it was always in his interest to maintain contact. Lucius Malfoy was an influential man, and later Snape was a spy.

I think he got on quite well with the Malfoys - Narcissa trusted him with her child's life, after all. She trusts that he won't go directly to Voldemort with news of her request. That suggests a strong positive relationship, IMO.

I think if being disliked was going to make him a reformed character, he had many opportunities. I don't think other people's disapproval mattered to him as much as his own assessment of a situation.

I think it was not so much being disliked as what he was being disliked for. The level of loathing Snape faced after Dumbledore's death was on a whole other level to anything he had faced before, and he faced it alone. I think it was also the kind of reaction he would have faced sixteen years earlier if people had known of his role in the Potters' deaths - I think that may have occurred to Snape. I think he may have reflected at last on how his actions as a DE hurt other people, and not just Severus Snape, when he was faced with the reaction to Dumbledore's death, and how it affected peoples' attitudes to him.

Snape had to face up to the consequences of his choices after Dumbledore's death. I doubt the portrait was exactly like having the living Dumbledore present.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

You've raised an interesting question (well to me anyway). Might we consider here the difference between Snape's external reality and his internal condition?

I think he was and felt reasonably secure in his friendship with Lily, once it was well-established in their childhood and possibly into their early Hogwarts years (which we are not shown). We are given the scene of them in the woods near their homes, of her interested in his stories, and him "brimful of confidence in his destiny". I also think that it was the relative rarity of this experience in the rest of his life, explains to a degree why it made such a big impact on him.

I don't think he was, or felt, similarly secure in his friendships in Slytherin House. Part of my thinking comes from reasoning about it - he was a boy with a Muggle father in the House of Purebloods, and he would have come to learn that how much magic one has is not the only thing that matters. The other part comes from the circumstances we observe - they appear to take no part in his adventures involving the Marauders, whether it be his investigation of the tunnel under the Willow, or his "worst memory".

I think the events of the first war destroyed the possibility of his feeling similar security with his adult, post-war associates. His DE associates he had to be wary of, he was secretly betraying their leader and their cause. While with his non-DE associates, the teachers and members of the Order, I think he would have been painfully aware that they did not know about things he could reasonably expect would negatively impact their opinion of him, like his role in carrying the prophecy about "the one" to Voldemort.

The one exception would be Dumbledore, who did in fact know the whole story, and nonetheless came eventually to express his respect for Snape (In scenes like the GoF era one where they discuss Karkaroff, or the scene where Snape saved him from the Ring curse). And of course, Snape learned (or thought he did, anyway) that Dumbledore had been lying to him all along.

In summary - while Gwendolen might have overstated in referring to the "public" disapprobation he was subjected to, as this seems to have been limited to specific periods such as his Hogwarts years and his tenure as Headmaster - I think the quality of his social life was about as poor as she suggested.

[slytherin001]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

I guess I see him differently. I think he and McGonagall were both strong personalities and shared an interest in the protection of the students. I think they had a friendly house rivalry, and she respected his judgment. None of the professors seemed to really dislike him (except fake Moody). Lupin said he neither liked nor disliked him. Flitwick cried in front of him at the staff meeting when Ginny was taken. Hagrid defended him. Slughorn put his arm around him at the Slug Club party. Even Umbridge liked him until he couldn't provide her with Veritaserum.

The Malfoy's seemed to genuinely like and trust him for the most part as well. Draco had a "stress" breakdown at the end, when he thought Snape was after glory, but even DD didn't see that one coming. Draco had always looked up to him.

The Weasley parents seemed quite friendly with him was well.

All of this is before Snape AK's DD, of course.

The main issue that I saw was that Snape himself chose to be alone and kept everyone at arm's length. He shut himself off.

I agree. I think there were plenty people who reached out to Snape and attempted to be friendly with him. Once the ball was in his court, Snape had to make a decision and decide whether to reciprocate the action. As we know, this wasn't often the case. And like you said, he kept everyone at an arm's length. I think some of this can be attributed to Snape's natural inclination to be more of an introvert and the fact that his duty as a double spy may have made it difficult for him to connect with others. But the opportunity for friendly contact was there, but Snape more often than not chose to dismiss it. It's understandable, but it doesn't make him a victim of any sort, IMO.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I think he was and felt reasonably secure in his friendship with Lily, once it was well-established in their childhood and possibly into their early Hogwarts years (which we are not shown). We are given the scene of them in the woods near their homes, of her interested in his stories, and him "brimful of confidence in his destiny". I also think that it was the relative rarity of this experience in the rest of his life, explains to a degree why it made such a big impact on him.

I'm not sure I can really agree: Observing his behavior throughout the memories we've seen, "secure" doesn't occur to me as a descriptor.

To that end, I would like to digress and muse about how I perceive Snape's feelings for Lily. I know he loved her--he must have always loved her. But what I see from the beginning and as he gets older is more and more of an obsession with an ideal that doesn't really exist. I think that from the moment they meet, he sees her as a special, idealized object who belongs to him--perhaps not in a physical sense, but certainly as subject of his experience rather than as an object in her own right--yet this above all in his imagination. Did he ever know her though? In situations where they're interacting one on one, I can't help noticing that they're markedly disconnected from each other.

When they are sitting along the river, Lily's anxiety is palpable, as is Snape's confidence, as you point out. It's a tender scene, really. But the line that I think spoils it is when Snape tells her of her blood status, "[i]t doesn't make any difference." This is from a certain point of view a very friendly thing to do... he would merely be trying to assuage her fears. There is an admirable quality to what he says, but to me it necessarily suggests that he is trying to convince himself that her blood status doesn't matter as much as he is trying to convince her. He knows well that blood status matters: it is suggested that his father has no love for magic, he sees the strife between the magical Lily and her nonmagical sister, and he even later supports those who think blood status should matter a great deal more. No, I rather think that he is imagining a world where Lily is immune to the prejudices of society, which is a far cry from understanding her fears and genuinely reassuring her. In my opinion, the most honest and helpful response would be telling her that blood status mattered a great deal, but that they would face the consequences of that belief together. No such thing occurs.

There is then their brief exchange on the Hogwarts Express, during which Lily is in obvious distress over her relationship with her sister. Snape's reaction is to ask her "so what?" and to remind Lily that they would be together at Hogwarts. Again I see here an effort to comfort Lily, but one which is sadly borne out of his desire that their relationship will be all that she cares about, because probably it is all that he cares about. As she cries, he bursts with exhilaration, because he cherishes the hope that they will stay together in Slytherin. Rather than attempting to counsel her on her problem, he seems to suggest that she abandon it to be with him. (And has he considered whether Slytherin is where she belongs, or even whether a Muggleborn is ever safe or likely to be sorted into it?)

Finally, we have their discussion about his friends and the dark magic they perform, whose salient result for me is that it shows a rather wide emotional gulf despite Snape's unfortunately rather clingy behavior. He opens the conversation by seeking reassurance that he and Lily are in fact best friends (something I've never felt the need to confirm with my best friends, I might add). He then goes on to dismiss Lily's concerns and objections, altogether ignoring them as far as Harry can tell: "Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step..." He is obsessed with removing James Potter from her life, which he sincerely believes would benefit Lily, but which would also allow him to maintain his fantasy of just the two of them against the world. At no point does he acknowledge that the rather serious issues she raised or her feelings themselves were important to him. His only apparently genuine reaction is pleasure upon hearing that she preferred him to James.

In conclusion, I think Snape loved Lily wholeheartedly, but it was a Lily that never really existed. In a sense he was always just watching her from the bushes, greedily eyeing her as she went on with her life without him. I really like Snape because I can identify with some of these aspects of him as I see them. And I would note rather strenuously also that don't believe he was ever really in a position to help most of the things I've described above, which makes him all the more sympathetic. But I can't conclude that he felt secure in his relationship with Lily, both because his own behavior suggests otherwise, and because his relationship with her was vastly different from her relationship with him.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

I agree. It was like a tennis match. Snape served, and Harry returned it. Both characters had an equal part, even if one was an adult.

Snape thought Harry saw himself as a celebrity. And book 2 begins with Harry being photographed with Lockhart's arm around him for Daily Prophet. And then Harry, instead of owling Hogwarts, hops a magical car to get himself there. And when he arrives at Hogwarts and doesn't see Snape, he amuses aloud that "maybe he's been sacked!" In Snape's mind, Harry was acting the part of a celebrity.

It was a 2 sided dynamic.

Harry's taking that car was not "excusable" but having heard Harry's side, it was "understandable." While Snape's actions may not have always been "excusable," I understand them in context of the character and what I believe his thought processes were.

My opinion, of course.

In book 1, when Snape was calling roll, he paused at Harry's name to add "our new celebrity" in a sarcastic tone no doubt. How is this not entirely Snape's issue? He then asks Harry 2 questions which only Hermione would know out of the whole class, and Harry answers "I don't know, sir" each of the 2 times -- and Snape throws a taunt after each polite reply Harry gives. After the first "I don't know, sir", he says "Tut, tut -- clearly fame isn't everything", and after the 2nd, "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh Potter?" How is that not entirely Snape's issue? When Harry does "volley back" after the 3rd question, and Hermione is now, alone of the class, standing with her hand raised to answer, it's not even done with much attitude...the book says:

Snape was still ignoring Hermione's quivering hand.

"What is the difference, Potter, between monkshood and wolfsbane?"

At this, Hermione stood up, her hand stretching toward the dungeon ceiling.

"I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think Hermione does, though, why don't you try her?"

So to summarize, Snape taunts Harry from roll call, insults him each time he can't answer a question out of a book with thousands of ingredients. Three taunting insults is quite enough for anyone, let alone an adult teacher against an 11 year old on the first day of class at the start of term. It was a partly cheeky reply, but I give Harry points for the nerve to stand up for himself rather than cower at his desk. Snape's behavior was out of line.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

When they are sitting along the river, Lily's anxiety is palpable, as is Snape's confidence, as you point out. It's a tender scene, really. But the line that I think spoils it is when Snape tells her of her blood status, "[i]t doesn't make any difference." This is from a certain point of view a very friendly thing to do... he would merely be trying to assuage her fears. There is an admirable quality to what he says, but to me it necessarily suggests that he is trying to convince himself that her blood status doesn't matter as much as he is trying to convince her. He knows well that blood status matters: it is suggested that his father has no love for magic, he sees the strife between the magical Lily and her nonmagical sister, and he even later supports those who think blood status should matter a great deal more.

I am not so sure he knows, at this point. And if he has an inkling, I think his statement that it does not, is one he would apply to himself as much as he would to her. It seems to me he truly believes his ancestry will not matter and he will be able to prove himself, so I do not find it odd that he might believe the same of her. The thing he seems to believe, based on his statements, really matters, is that she is so magical (and so is he).

A thing which particularly suggests this to me, is the prosecutions of Muggleborns that we witness in DH. In these we learn that, apparently, one of the lies used to justify their persecution, is that they are not really magical; they are thieves who have stolen the wands of other wizards. If as a child he was fed this presumably standard lie, he would know it does not apply to her. He has seen her perform impressive controlled magic with no wand at all.

So yes, he might have been deluded, but I do not feel the delusion was about her specifically. I think it was about the society which they were both about to enter.

There is then their brief exchange on the Hogwarts Express, during which Lily is in obvious distress over her relationship with her sister. Snape's reaction is to ask her "so what?" and to remind Lily that they would be together at Hogwarts. Again I see here an effort to comfort Lily, but one which is sadly borne out of his desire that their relationship will be all that she cares about, because probably it is all that he cares about.

I took this to be a reflection of his family life. We see his mother bring him to the station, in that scene. She does not speak to him, she does not hug or kiss him, or wave goodbye, that we are shown. His father does not even bother to come see him off. I think he is honestly puzzled by her reaction, but as it has arisen out of a family conflict, he offers her the same consolation he offers himself in the previous scene (soon I will be gone).

(And has he considered whether Slytherin is where she belongs, or even whether a Muggleborn is ever safe or likely to be sorted into it?)

This is another reason I think his reply to her question about whether being Muggleborn matters, reflects his actual opinion. He describes the House to James in the scene on the train, and does not mention blood purity as a criterion (he'd rather be "brainy than brawny"). And he seems to express the opinion she could be sorted into that house.

Finally, we have their discussion about his friends and the dark magic they perform, whose salient result for me is that it shows a rather wide emotional gulf despite Snape's unfortunately rather clingy behavior.

Yes. Here, I entirely agree. When I used the word "secure", I was describing how I saw his feelings in the period when she first accepted him as a friend, through an unspecified (because unknowable) point before the conversation you mention here (which may be placed confidently in their fifth year at Hogwarts.) Something has changed. And, just as I did not think it was all about Lily before, I also do not think this change is all about Lily at this point, either. We go from the boy who is "oddly impressive" in his confidence in his destiny, to a boy who is "twitchy" and "round-shouldered" who hides alone in the bushes to go over a test paper ("Snape's Worst Memory", OotP, which shows us Sev in the same school year as the Dark Arts discussion scene).

I think, as he entered adolescence and developed an interest in her "in that way", he saw (accurately) that she was, to quote Rowling, "quite a catch". And he was no longer confident that the friendship they had shared was enough to outweigh the more conventional considerations society suggests, rightly or wrongly, guide such a girl in choosing a mate, because school had not worked out the way he had hoped for him. He realized that he was not wealthy, or Pureblood, or popular, or a star athlete, and that indeed maybe these things mattered more than he had supposed at age 10. Which is why I think James' interest in Lily seemed such a threat to Sev, of course. James was all of the above, and in her House, where he would share all her classes, sit at the same table, and hang out after the 8 pm curfew in their Common Room.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

So to summarize, Snape taunts Harry from roll call, insults him each time he can't answer a question out of a book with thousands of ingredients.

Well, as I said, Snape served. He started it between himself and Harry.

I also believe that both of them throughout the books had behaviors which were "inexcusable" but "understandable" in context of the character.

I have no way of knowing the difficulty of the questions or the number of ingredients, to be honest. I do know that Hermione knew the answers off the top of her head. Of course, she read everything she could get her hands on.

[Gwendolen]

I think most of the friendships Snape could have made as an adult would be based on deception. I don't think he could call anyone a friend if they would despise him if they learned the truth about him. For Snape to remain a spy, both the Order and the Death Eaters had to believe Dumbledore trusted Snape. It would have been impossible to convince anyone of that if Snape had openly confessed to betraying the Potters, especially as his hatred of James and Lily was well known.

Snape's pure-blood mother seemed to be one of the least prejudiced characters in the series, since she married a muggle. Elaine Prince would surely have been regarded as a blood-traitor, which might be why Severus was aware of prejudice before he went to Hogwarts. I'm not sure how his mother's views and experience would have affected Snape, since he was close to her and proud of her heritage. I don't think either of Snape's parents would be respected in Slytherin.

Edit: Snape's questions were fairly basic, in that two are general knowledge, not magic

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Well, as I said, Snape served. He started it between himself and Harry.

I also believe that both of them throughout the books had behaviors which were "inexcusable" but "understandable" in context of the character.

I have no way of knowing the difficulty of the questions or the number of ingredients, to be honest. I do know that Hermione knew the answers off the top of her head. Of course, she read everything she could get her hands on.

Sorry, but as you noted only a very small part of my summary, I'd like to reiterate.

So a teacher, who while going through roll call, makes fun of a student who hasn't done/said anything to warrant it, and that's OK? And the student says nothing back to the insult.

The teacher then asks the student 2 questions, pretty well knowing he'll never know the answer -- as no one else in class but Hermione knew either -- and the student gives a polite reponse each time (I don't know, sir), and the teacher throws out 2 more insults.

By the time the teacher asks a 3rd question, completely ignoring the only student in class who knows the answer -- sorry, but this is a clear pattern of abuse of power as a teacher in a room of 11 year olds.

Harry wasn't a participant in the display until the very end, after Snape taunted Harry 4 times. Pretty impressive restraint on Harry's part, and clearly not a "serve and volley" situation. In my opinion, this disgracefully immature behavior on Snape's part is what set the stage for their future interactions. Even aside from the fact that Snape's the adult here, he deliberately pushed Harry over and over until he got a reaction.

The book by the way, was One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi. You'd need to have read the entire volume to have a chance at remembering those three ingredients. No one but Hermione would have read the whole book. It clearly annoyed Snape that she was so well informed.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I am not so sure he knows, at this point. And if he has an inkling, I think his statement that it does not, is one he would apply to himself as much as he would to her. It seems to me he truly believes his ancestry will not matter and he will be able to prove himself, so I do not find it odd that he might believe the same of her. The thing he seems to believe, based on his statements, really matters, is that she is so magical (and so is he).

A thing which particularly suggests this to me, is the prosecutions of Muggleborns that we witness in DH. In these we learn that, apparently, one of the lies used to justify their persecution, is that they are not really magical; they are thieves who have stolen the wands of other wizards. If as a child he was fed this presumably standard lie, he would know it does not apply to her. He has seen her perform impressive controlled magic with no wand at all.

So yes, he might have been deluded, but I do not feel the delusion was about her specifically. I think it was about the society which they were both about to enter.

I'm not sure I agree, but I see what you mean. It's just that his behavior in that exact moment leads me to believe he is being something other than geniune:

The Prince's Tale "Does it make a difference, being Muggle-born?" Snape hesitated. His black eyes, eager in the greenish gloom, moved over the pale face, the dark red hair. "No," he said. "It doesn't make any difference." "Good," said Lily, relaxing. It was clear that she had been worrying.

Note his hesitation, and the way he looks at her. He isn't looking into her eyes with empathy, or to establish intimacy, but he eagerly glances over her face and hair. It is not her emotional that he is considering, but her appearance... and it is only after he has visually appraised her that he makes his response, the only one he might presume would please her.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I took this to be a reflection of his family life. We see his mother bring him to the station, in that scene. She does not speak to him, she does not hug or kiss him, or wave goodbye, that we are shown. His father does not even bother to come see him off. I think he is honestly puzzled by her reaction, but as it has arisen out of a family conflict, he offers her the same consolation he offers himself in the previous scene (soon I will be gone).

Well I was considering chiefly Snape's feelings vis-a-vis Lily, but I think what you've pointed out here is also a valid dimension of his behavior. It still lends credence, I think, to the idea that he has a conception of Lily that is different from reality. I would say the origins of his belief that this consolation will be useful is revealing in itself, but I think as it applies to Lily it represents a continuing misapprehension on Snape's part.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

This is another reason I think his reply to her question about whether being Muggleborn matters, reflects his actual opinion. He describes the House to James in the scene on the train, and does not mention blood purity as a criterion (he'd rather be "brainy than brawny"). And he seems to express the opinion she could be sorted into that house.

That's fair, but then we must conclude that Snape underwent a radical change in his ideas during those missing years. It's absolutely possible, but I would point out his near-miss regarding Petunia ("She's only a--"), where the implication is either that he does not value Muggles in comparison to Wizards. I'll admit I've vacillated about this when it comes to Snape, because I don't think it's every really clear what he believes. At the very least I hope you'll agree that he had some opportunity to notice that Muggleborns were not held in high esteem by some wizards.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

Yes. Here, I entirely agree. When I used the word "secure", I was describing how I saw his feelings in the period when she first accepted him as a friend, through an unspecified (because unknowable) point before the conversation you mention here (which may be placed confidently in their fifth year at Hogwarts.) Something has changed. And, just as I did not think it was all about Lily before, I also do not think this change is all about Lily at this point, either. We go from the boy who is "oddly impressive" in his confidence in his destiny, to a boy who is "twitchy" and "round-shouldered" who hides alone in the bushes to go over a test paper ("Snape's Worst Memory", OotP, which shows us Sev in the same school year as the Dark Arts discussion scene).

I think, as he entered adolescence and developed an interest in her "in that way", he saw (accurately) that she was, to quote Rowling, "quite a catch". And he was no longer confident that the friendship they had shared was enough to outweigh the more conventional considerations society suggests, rightly or wrongly, guide such a girl in choosing a mate, because school had not worked out the way he had hoped for him. He realized that he was not wealthy, or Pureblood, or popular, or a star athlete, and that indeed maybe these things mattered more than he had supposed at age 10. Which is why I think James' interest in Lily seemed such a threat to Sev, of course. James was all of the above, and in her House, where he would share all her classes, sit at the same table, and hang out after the 8 pm curfew in their Common Room.

Well he goes from a boy who hides in the bushes to observe some girls to a boy who hides in the bushes to go over a test... ought we to consider this a significant difference? Seriously though, the narrative repeatedly uses words like "eager" and "greedy" to describe Snape's behavior. I would also point out something that strikes me about the language in the narrative... Lily primarily "looks" at Snape, but Snape "watches" Lily. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but doesn't that sort of put Snape at a distance even though he spends time face-to-face with her?

To be honest, I don't really see a marked difference between young Snape and teen Snape, although of course I am open to the idea because something must explain how Snape ended up a Death Eater. The boy in the first memory, though I think he was in a sense lost (by that I mean that he was misguided going in, and that from this point he irrevocably entwined his interests with Lily), he need not have gone down that path without something else to influence him.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

The book by the way, was One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi. You'd need to have read the entire volume to have a chance at remembering those three ingredients. No one but Hermione would have read the whole book. It clearly annoyed him that she was so well informed.

I doubt you'd have to read the entire volume. I have never heard of the book, but I know what a bezoar is and what wolfsbane and monkshood are. As it was their first lesson, Snape was teaching the class from that book, and asked everyone to write down the answers, I assume the answers would have been in the first chapter. Quite likely Hermione knew the answers because she prepared for the lesson beforehand.

Snape took one house point from Gryffindor for cheek, because Harry told him to ask Hermione. He didn't take the house point because Harry didn't know answers that he'd never been taught.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Harry wasn't a participant in the display until the very end, after Snape taunted Harry 4 times. Pretty impressive restraint on Harry's part, and clearly not a "serve and volley" situation. In my opinion, this disgracefully immature behavior on Snape's part is what set the stage for their future interactions. Even aside from the fact that Snape's the adult here, he deliberately pushed Harry over and over until he got a reaction.

Well, when I was referring to "serve and volley", I was considering all 7 books and not just the first class. Yes, Snape started the ball rolling. Perhaps I also would have made a comment similar to Harry's as well.

Snape's behavior was, at times, "unexcusable" and I don't make excuses for him. I do, however, attempt to understand why he did what he did in the context of the character.

When I said that Harry also at times displayed behavior which i felt was "unexcusable' but "understandable" I was referring to incidents such as where he was busy trying to break out of Hogwarts to go to Hogsmead in order to have fun, while the murderer of his parents was trying to break into Hogwarts in order to harm him. Also, when he used a spell he is unfamiliar with and almost killed another student, was not honest about where he learned the spell, and swapped the book with another. When he could not board the train, and instead of using the owl he was carrying around, he hopped a magical car and was seen by several muggles.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

The book by the way, was One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi. You'd need to have read the entire volume to have a chance at remembering those three ingredients. No one but Hermione would have read the whole book. It clearly annoyed Snape that she was so well informed.

The book does not say that Hermione was the only one who knew the answers - only that she was the only one who volunteered to answer. I also don't know how well known the information was in the average wizard household. Only taking a guess at one - Bezoar - it sounds like an effective cure for most poisons, and if I were a witch, I'd want to have several on hand. I very well may have known the source. That being said, Snape may have selected questions he thought were difficult because he was trying to counter all of the people who had been fawning over Harry and wanted to show he was a normal person and would not get special treatment in his classroom. However, we don't know Snape's thoughts - we only see the scene from Harry's point of view.

Just my opinion.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I doubt you'd have to read the entire volume. I have never heard of the book, but I know what a bezoar is and what wolfsbane and monkshood are. As it was their first lesson, Snape was teaching the class from that book, and asked everyone to write down the answers, I assume the answers would have been in the first chapter. Quite likely Hermione knew the answers because she prepared for the lesson beforehand.

You are probably right, but Hermione appeared to be the only student who did know the answers. Snape didn't fire his questions at any other students, only Harry, therefore he didn't seem to be interested in getting correct answers for the benefit of the class. (Poor teaching in my view!) His intent seems to have been to humiliate Harry and nothing else. He was working on an assumption that Harry enjoyed his notoriety and considering he had only just met him, he could have no particular reason to assume that. James on the other hand appeared from later accounts to have enjoyed his ntoriety as a clever student and gifted Quidditch player, and therefore this seems to me to be another example of Severus expecting to see James in Harry and not waiting to see if Lily's son actually resembled her. I do wonder why he never seemed to see anything of Lily in her son.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

The book does not say that Hermione was the only one who knew the answers - only that she was the only one who volunteered to answer. I also don't know how well known the information was in the average wizard household. Only taking a guess at one - Bezoar - it sounds like an effective cure for most poisons, and if I were a witch, I'd want to have several on hand. I very well may have known the source. That being said, Snape may have selected questions he thought were difficult because he was trying to counter all of the people who had been fawning over Harry and wanted to show he was a normal person and would not get special treatment in his classroom. However, we don't know Snape's thoughts - we only see the scene from Harry's point of view.

Just my opinion.

I don't have an issue with Snape asking questions. I have an issue with Snape berating a student repeatedly, starting with roll call for goodness sake. The way I see it, we don't need Snape's thoughts to recognize his taunts in that first class; there is no reasonable way to mistake the malicious intent in Snape's words.

As far as the lesson, Snape said "why aren't you all copying this down?", so I wouldn't think it was in the first lesson or he wouldn't have needed to have the students write it. The book sounds like an accompaniment to potion making, a source to research and learn about magical herbs & fungi. The actual first lesson, from the potions book, was to make a potion to treat boils and had no relation to the questions about ingredients Snape asked Harry. So it seems obvious he picked something that Harry, especially as he was raised in a muggle household, would have no way of knowing on his first day.