Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I'm going to move to The Fidelius charm - how it works and where it can be used.

No. The Fidelius Charm on Shell Cottage, and possibly also the one on Auntie Muriel's, were put in place while Harry dug Dobby's grave. Harry and the trio's arrival at Shell Cottage prompted a sequence of actions by Bill and the Order based on the fact that Ron had been seen with Harry, and thus the Weasley family was no longer safe with the 'ghoul in pajamas' plan.

Thanks for clarifying, I couldn't remember.

Auntie Muriel's was used in the Seven Potters scheme, so it is possible that that Fidelius Charm still existed, depending on what the secret was and whether it still applied; however, Shell Cottage is not explicitly mentioned as one of the candidates for use in the Seven Potters, so it is not a plot hole based on that. It is likely, to me at least, that Shell Cottage was out of flying distance from Surrey, and so was not used.

You're right, Shell Cottage is not explicitely stated as a desitnation the night of the seven Potters but they do say that they are using locations that are related to the Order and those locations they list of are, in two cases, directly related to the protector: Moody's house, Kingley's house; the third location is related to the protector but that protector doesn't go there: the Tonks house; and the fourth known location is related to the Order via the Weasley family: Auntie Muriel's. Technically three locations remain unknown since it seems no one travels directly to the Burrow but all take portkeys. It's highly likely to me that Shell Cottage was a destination given who the "protectors" were and the eventual locations being traveled to:

• Harry and Hagrid, to Tonks' parents' house
• Hermione with Kingsley, probably to Kingsley's house
• Ron with Tonks, maybe Aunt Muriel's since she's Ron's relation
• George with Lupin, maybe the second unknown destination was Lupin's residence (?)
• Fred with Arthur, third unknown location
• Mundungus Fletcher with Alastor Moody, probably to Moody's house
• Fleur Delacour with Bill Weasley... Shell Cottage seems the most likely candidate to me

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

• Harry and Hagrid, to Tonks' parents' house
• Hermione with Kingsley, probably to Kingsley's house
• Ron with Tonks, maybe Aunt Muriel's since she's Ron's relation
• George with Lupin, maybe the second unknown destination was Lupin's residence (?)
• Fred with Arthur, third unknown location
• Mundungus Fletcher with Alastor Moody, probably to Moody's house
• Fleur Delacour with Bill Weasley... Shell Cottage seems the most likely candidate to me

Yet, I would reiterate, it wouldn't be at all ideal for the journey to last for an overly long time. We are shown the DA members travelling from Scotland to London by thestral in OotP, but it took an extremely long time, IIRC, and those travellers were not accompanied by DEs trying to kill them. I would have to assume that the locations were all fairly well equidistant from Harry's house in Surrey given the expected close arrival times of each party, and I don't expect that Shell Cottage fits that bill, being on the coast near Tinworth.

I could be wrong, though. The other logical alternative is that the secret was something temporary.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yet, I would reiterate, it wouldn't be at all ideal for the journey to last for an overly long time. We are shown the DA members travelling from Scotland to London by thestral in OotP, but it took an extremely long time, IIRC, and those travellers were not accompanied by DEs trying to kill them. I would have to assume that the locations were all fairly well equidistant from Harry's house in Surrey given the expected close arrival times of each party, and I don't expect that Shell Cottage fits that bill, being on the coast near Tinworth.

I could be wrong, though. The other logical alternative is that the secret was something temporary.

And I would reply that travel times in the wizarding world don't appear to be the same for the muggle world. The quintet that traveled down to the MoM on thestrals should have probably taken a couple days (perhaps 24 hours at least depending on how fast thestrals actually travel) and yet it seemed to be a distance surmounted by maybe several hours - a long time when on the uncomfortable back on a winged skeleton horse but not as long as it, perhaps should have been.

It's possible, likewise, that travel on broomstick is equally subject to different laws of time. When traveling in a straight line over distances without obstacles (such as through the air) a broomstick might be capable of mach speeds for all we know, so traveling from Surrey to Tinworth (I have no idea how far that actually is) might only take half an hour or, indeed, ten minutes.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

And I would reply that travel times in the wizarding world don't appear to be the same for the muggle world. The quintet that traveled down to the MoM on thestrals should have probably taken a couple days (perhaps 24 hours at least depending on how fast thestrals actually travel) and yet it seemed to be a distance surmounted by maybe several hours - a long time when on the uncomfortable back on a winged skeleton horse but not as long as it, perhaps should have been.

It's interesting, isn't it? Thestrals do travel faster than Harry's Firebolt, IIRC, and that is pretty fast. I would reckon that the thestrals move faster than the Hogwarts Express (or a flying Ford Anglia, or a flying motorcycle), and that would make it less than a day's travel.

It's possible, likewise, that travel on broomstick is equally subject to different laws of time. When traveling in a straight line over distances without obstacles (such as through the air) a broomstick might be capable of mach speeds for all we know, so traveling from Surrey to Tinworth (I have no idea how far that actually is) might only take half an hour or, indeed, ten minutes.

Bill and Fleur were travelling on a thestral, I'm pretty sure, which is why I was considering thestrals, mainly.

If math applies, it doesn't seem to make sense to me that Tinworth, or anywhere that far away, would be used for the purposes of the Seven Potters. The thestrals seem to make the journey from Hogwarts to London in a matter of a few hours, now that I go back and read it (any faster and their faces would have been in danger from wind resistance, methinks). They leave Hogwarts at dusk, and arrive at the ministry to be greeted with 'good evening' by the automated voice. The Seven Potters' journeys each seem to take less than half an hour to arrive at the Burrow, which means it took less than less than half an hour to get to their destinations.

Unfortunately, according to my best Google Maps-based estimate, Cornwall is roughly half the distance from London that northern Scotland is, so it doesn't really add up.

But this is all quite trivial, of course.

[StarryVeil]

It just occurred to me that Harry should have been able to see Thestrals from his very first year at Hogwarts. Lily died right in front of him!... Plot hole? Or am I missing something?

[GrangerHermione]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

It just occurred to me that Harry should have been able to see Thestrals from his very first year at Hogwarts. Lily died right in front of him!... Plot hole? Or am I missing something?

People wondered the same thing after Cedric died in GoF; after the term ends, Harry has to ride back in the carriages to Hogsmeade Station in order to get back on the Hogwarts Express (although I don't think this is mentioned in the book). By that time, Harry had seen Cedric die, and yet he does not see the thestrals. JKR explained a while ago that Cedric's death had not yet "sunk in" or something like that, and that's why he couldn't see the thestrals. I guess the same concept could explain why Lily's death didn't make him see the thestrals. He was barely one year old at the time, so he probably couldn't comprehend what was going on, and he can't remember the incident later since he was so young.

To bring up another plot hole/inconsistency, I've always wondered about Mad-Eye Moody seeing the boggart. In PoA we learn that because boggarts are shape-shifters, no one knows what they look like in their true form. But Mad-Eye Moody should, right? In OotP he looks through the desk drawer (I think that's what it was?) with his magical eye and confirms to Mrs. Weasley that a boggart was in there. Thoughts?

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by GrangerHermione

To bring up another plot hole/inconsistency, I've always wondered about Mad-Eye Moody seeing the boggart. In PoA we learn that because boggarts are shape-shifters, no one knows what they look like in their true form. But Mad-Eye Moody should, right? In OotP he looks through the desk drawer (I think that's what it was?) with his magical eye and confirms to Mrs. Weasley that a boggart was in there. Thoughts?

I don't think it could be classified as an inconsistency or plot hole. It simply is something that remains unanswered. Does the boggart really stay in its natural form? In class, Harry answered (correctly) that it would help the person facing the boggart to have so many other people around--it may not know what to turn into with so many thoughts from the students. It appears that the boggart uses what you're thinking to decide its form. If that's so, it doesn't matter that the boggart couldn't see Moody, but rather if Moody thinking of what he feared when he looked through the bureau with his magical eye?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by GrangerHermione

To bring up another plot hole/inconsistency, I've always wondered about Mad-Eye Moody seeing the boggart. In PoA we learn that because boggarts are shape-shifters, no one knows what they look like in their true form. But Mad-Eye Moody should, right? In OotP he looks through the desk drawer (I think that's what it was?) with his magical eye and confirms to Mrs. Weasley that a boggart was in there. Thoughts?

I always assumed that Mad-eye, with his magical eye, was a unique case, and may have been the only wizard able to, but I guess that isn't confirmed.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't think it could be classified as an inconsistency or plot hole. It simply is something that remains unanswered. Does the boggart really stay in its natural form? In class, Harry answered (correctly) that it would help the person facing the boggart to have so many other people around--it may not know what to turn into with so many thoughts from the students. It appears that the boggart uses what you're thinking to decide its form. If that's so, it doesn't matter that the boggart couldn't see Moody, but rather if Moody thinking of what he feared when he looked through the bureau with his magical eye?

I will say, however, that in DADA class with Lupin, there are several students looking and concentrating on the boggart at the same time, and it picks the one which it feels is confronting it more directly. I think it comes down to whether the appearance of the boggart is something which is created in the mind of the viewer, or whether the boggart actually shifts its shape into the form to confront enemies. The DADA scene indicates the latter, so I would be surprised if Moody saw his worst fear in the cupboard.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I will say, however, that in DADA class with Lupin, there are several students looking and concentrating on the boggart at the same time, and it picks the one which it feels is confronting it more directly. I think it comes down to whether the appearance of the boggart is something which is created in the mind of the viewer, or whether the boggart actually shifts its shape into the form to confront enemies. The DADA scene indicates the latter, so I would be surprised if Moody saw his worst fear in the cupboard.

I wouldn't, after just now reading the boggart discusion in POA. Lupin says the boggart while residing within darkness hasn't taken a shape yet, and that no one knows what one looks like when it's alone. But when someone approaches it, the boggart assumes a shape it thinks will frighten that person. But Moody isn't an ordinary person because of the magical eye. Does the boggart sense it's being looked at, and assume the shape it senses will frighten the looker? I think that might be the case; otherwise how could Moody be sure it was a boggart if there's no description of a boggart? Perhaps Moody knew it was because he did indeed see his worst fear when he peered at it through the cabinet.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Perhaps Moody knew it was because he did indeed see his worst fear when he peered at it through the cabinet.

Which would be what? Another piece of his nose? Lol.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I wouldn't, after just now reading the boggart discusion in POA. Lupin says the boggart while residing within darkness hasn't taken a shape yet, and that no one knows what one looks like when it's alone. But when someone approaches it, the boggart assumes a shape it thinks will frighten that person. But Moody isn't an ordinary person because of the magical eye. Does the boggart sense it's being looked at, and assume the shape it senses will frighten the looker? I think that might be the case; otherwise how could Moody be sure it was a boggart if there's no description of a boggart? Perhaps Moody knew it was because he did indeed see his worst fear when he peered at it through the cabinet.

Well, perhaps I am taking this too literally, but I believe Lupin says that the boggart does not know what will frighten the person on the other side of the door. While Moody can see the boggart, the boggart evidently can't see him. While it may sense that it is being watched, can it really deduce the identity of the person on the other side, and thus that person's fear?

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by JohanT

Well, perhaps I am taking this too literally, but I believe Lupin says that the boggart does not know what will frighten the person on the other side of the door. While Moody can see the boggart, the boggart evidently can't see him. While it may sense that it is being watched, can it really deduce the identity of the person on the other side, and thus that person's fear?

If it can sense the fears of people in the room but not immediately confronting it, I don't know why it couldn't also tell from Moody. After all, we're not sure if a boggart even sees in the sense that we do; perhaps it's more of an intuitive sense. How does the boggart know to transform into Snape dressed in the clothes of Neville's grandmother, for example? It's getting the information straight out of his head somehow, sensing what Neville's thinking. If it senses Moody staring at it, it could link up with his thoughts.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

If it can sense the fears of people in the room but not immediately confronting it, I don't know why it couldn't also tell from Moody. After all, we're not sure if a boggart even sees in the sense that we do; perhaps it's more of an intuitive sense. How does the boggart know to transform into Snape dressed in the clothes of Neville's grandmother, for example? It's getting the information straight out of his head somehow, sensing what Neville's thinking. If it senses Moody staring at it, it could link up with his thoughts.

Is there evidence that it knows a person's fear without directly facing that person? So far, according to Lupin, that is, there is nothing to suggest that the boggart is aware of who it is standing outside of the opening. It appears as though the boggart is able to make a split second decision on what form to assume. While I do agree that it senses rather than sees, I do think that eye contact is necessary.

But, a question has come to mind, now that you brought up the possibility of it sensing Moody's thoughts. If a witch or wizard knows what is behind the door, just as Moody knew, then does the boggart take shape within the cabinet, as it may sense the person's fear while still contained in its piece of furniture?

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by JohanT

Is there evidence that it knows a person's fear without directly facing that person? So far, according to Lupin, that is, there is nothing to suggest that the boggart is aware of who it is standing outside of the opening. It appears as though the boggart is able to make a split second decision on what form to assume. While I do agree that it senses rather than sees, I do think that eye contact is necessary.

But, a question has come to mind, now that you brought up the possibility of it sensing Moody's thoughts. If a witch or wizard knows what is behind the door, just as Moody knew, then does the boggart take shape within the cabinet, as it may sense the person's fear while still contained in its piece of furniture?

That is, indeed, the question. When Seamus is facing the boggart, it appears as a banshee -- which Seamus makes voiceless with riddikulus; then suddently the boggart turns into a rat chasing its own tail, then a rattlesnake, then a single bloody eyeball -- it was taking in thoughts randomly, even though it was still confronted only by Seamus. Lupin says it was confused, they were getting there; so apparently you don't have to be confronting a boggart or it "seeing" you (if it even has eyes) for it to pick up on thoughts of fear; and actually that's an advantage in a way for the boggart. If Moody stares in and looks at the boggart, and only being human like the rest of us, momentarily thinks of what frightens him, I'd say the boggart would sense it & form itself accordingly.

Lupin tells the class that no one knows what a boggart looks like when it's alone. That could mean that if anyone is nearby, the boggart pops into form as a defense.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by JohanT

But, a question has come to mind, now that you brought up the possibility of it sensing Moody's thoughts. If a witch or wizard knows what is behind the door, just as Moody knew, then does the boggart take shape within the cabinet, as it may sense the person's fear while still contained in its piece of furniture?

I do think this is a possibility, I also wonder whether Moody could "see" the boggart at all. The inside of the cabinet was in complete darkness and so was the boggart. Can Moody see through the dark? Does his eye have nightvision? If he were standing in a brightly lit room with sunlight in his face could he even see into complete darkness with accuracy given that any "nightvision" he had could be obscured by sunlight? For instance, one needs time to adjust to a dark room after walking inside from bright light or must shield their eyes from the bright sun after leaving, say, a darkened movie theater. Would Moody's eye be similarly affected? Nightvision, like nightvision goggles, doesn't work in daylight, does it?

[mirrormere]

In Star Trek, Geordi has a visor that sees energy outside the spectrum of visible light. Perhaps Mad Eye can see magical elements irrespective of light or dark?

[StarryVeil]

I'd also like to add that Moody isn't the only one who saw the Boggart while it was still inside the cabinet. Sirius also peers into the cabinet through the keyhole and determines that it is a Boggart. So would the Boggart have changed into Sirius's worst fear while still inside the cabinet? It couldn't see Sirius from inside, I think.

I think it comes down to your thoughts. The Boggart can sense your thoughts, thereby allowing it to change into your worst fear...but then again, does it need eye contact to sense your thoughts? If so, one could possibly explain away Sirius's case. But Moody's? Meh...Moody's magical eye never fails to make my brain hurt. (Like how could it see through Harry's Invisibility Cloak which was a Deathly Hallow?)

[wolfbrother]

Since Boggarts determine your worst fear by reading your thoughts, I wonder if Occlumency is a valid defense against it.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I do think this is a possibility, I also wonder whether Moody could "see" the boggart at all. The inside of the cabinet was in complete darkness and so was the boggart. Can Moody see through the dark? Does his eye have nightvision? If he were standing in a brightly lit room with sunlight in his face could he even see into complete darkness with accuracy given that any "nightvision" he had could be obscured by sunlight? For instance, one needs time to adjust to a dark room after walking inside from bright light or must shield their eyes from the bright sun after leaving, say, a darkened movie theater. Would Moody's eye be similarly affected? Nightvision, like nightvision goggles, doesn't work in daylight, does it?

Hmmm, unless boggarts give off some sort of inborn signal as to their presence, I'd say that Moody can see them, even though the inside of the cabinet is darkened. But, I do not think that it takes on the form of his fear, for, personally, it is not the thoughts that truly matter. I think, rather than reading your mind, the boggart can simply sense what it is you fear the most. The reason I say this, in particular, is because of the run in Harry had with a boggart during the maze. When other circumstances with boggarts occured, all wizards and witches were aware that a boggart would be able to pick out their deepest fears, and thus, no doubt, their deepest fears were at the tips of their minds. In Harry's case, however, he did not know that he was up against a boggart, when it flew at him in the form of a dementor. If it was a variation of legilimency, should we not assume that Harry's mind would be violated, and he would notice it to some extent? Just tossing something out there, perhaps it is a bit weak for an argument.

[mirrormere]

Sooooo.....what happens to your wand when you transform into an Animagus?