Minor parts of the story that alarm or surprise you.

[inthebreeze]

There is a thread dedicated to little moments in the series you like, and I'd like to make it clear that this thread is vastly different. This thread is for discussion small, 'throwaway' parts of the seven books that leave you scratching your head, minor plot points that upon reflection leave you looking something like this , either for good or bad reasons. This is not for things like Snape's death or Neville beheading Nagini, but for little parts of the seven books that imply something much deeper or always stuck out for you, and this thread is to discuss things like that.

I'll start us off to show the kind of thing I mean. This is a very minor plot point, but in rereading Goblet of Fire I noticed that you do not need much imagination to consider Hermione's S.P.E.W. campaign as incredibly narrow-minded, and frankly pretty alarming. It's not really even an argument that Hermione's heart is in the right place with her house elf crusade, but upon reflection it's quite a stunning bit of blindness on her part that makes her attitude towards Crookshanks' continuous attempts to eat Scabbers in the previous book look thoughtful and considerate. In her S.P.E.W. campaign, she flat out ignores the advice of everyone who tells her it's wrong, almost all of those people knowing much more about the subject than her (the others coming from wizarding backgrounds and her from a muggle house) and even more amazingly she turns a blind eye to the wishes and hopes of the creatures she is so proudly trying to help. She is told repeatedly by house elves themselves that they love their work and that for every elf apart from Dobby accepting wages is simply unthinkable and being freed would be agony, and not only does she refuse to listen to this but she actively tries to free every elf in the castle by leaving booby traps in the Gryffindor common room. Regardless of whether or not she could actually have freed any elves, not technically being their master, the intent was clear. If she had succeeded in freeing the elves, she would have made over a hundred creatures profoundly miserable and out of work, all due to a quest where she considered no one's opinion but her own.

Are there any other minor plot points or small story arcs you that leave you a bit wide-eyed or alarmed? They can of course be much more positive than that, but that's the best example I can think of at the moment. Seemingly insignificant parts of the story that stick with you, either for good or bad reasons? They can be tiny things that make you like or dislike a character more, as long as they're small parts of the story of no huge significance upon first glance but may mean a lot more to you once you really think about them.

EDIT: No replies? I thought at least a few would have some ideas.

Here's a few more, then.

- Philosopher's Stone. Dumbledore, at the end of term feast, allows Slytherin colors to adorn the great hall before giving the trio and Neville just enough points to overtake them. With a clap, the hangings change color, and victory is stolen away from a bunch of children right before their eyes.

- Prisoner of Azkaban. When Harry overhears Fudge telling the story of what Sirius supposedly did, Fudge stresses that 'the worst he did isn't widely known'. He specifically states that of Sirius' two supposed crimes (murdering 12 muggles + a wizard/betraying two wizards and their wizard kid), the second is by far the more evil of the crimes. Think what this could imply - this is the man in charge of the wizarding world, or at least the British part of it, and think what he's really saying. It shows the arrogance of wizards in that he considers an attack on a wizard and a witch that knew full well they were being chased to be far more horrible than the useless, meaningless slaughter of twelve muggles who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know that from a wizarding point of view it's worse, and of course it's worse to Harry, but it still an interesting thing to think about.

- Order of the Phoenix. Hermione's charmed parchment that leaves another student wearing a balaclava for at least a year and presumably much longer afterwards. I understand that we're meant to be on the good side as readers, and meant to think that Marietta Edgecomb deserved what she got, and in a way she did, but think about it for a second - Hermione invited people she did not know at all to come to the Hog's Head that day, and she should have known most of the people there only came to hear Harry's story (as Harry himself notes). What she does, in effect, is disfigure a student, possibly permanently, as a punishment for that student's 'betrayal', when the student in question wasn't even really on her side in the first place, and she should've known it.

- Half-Blood Prince. Dumbledore nearly lets two innocent students be murdered, knowing full well who the attacker was, and does very little to prevent the attacks. We know his reasoning, and it comes down to your own personal beliefs on 'greater goods', but that is pretty stunning behavior for a wise old wizard.

- Chamber of Secrets. Hagrid is taken to Azkaban by Fudge, who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not guilty of any crime that time. The wizard prison is essentially neverending psychological torture, and nevermind the ministry 'needing to be seen to be doing something' - you're sending an innocent man to a place like that? And it's not only Fudge's administration - we see this time and time again.

- Quidditch at Hogwarts. As Harry is the hero, we quite like the idea that during his school career he has two of the most awesome broomsticks money can buy.. but think about that. 'Money can buy'. Think of the advantage this gives both a) rich wizarding kids over poor ones, and b) poor wizarding kids over muggle-borns. In the second book we see that Lucius Malfoy buys seven of the best brooms in the world at the time for the Slytherin team. Harry, throughout the books, though clearly a very skilled player and an excellent flyer, has to attribute a very, very significant proportion of his success to the fact he almost always has a much better broom than anyone else. Muggle-born kids would know nothing about broomsticks, so even if they were talented, they would likely have to ride school brooms and be trounced by the opposing team. None of this would be a big deal if Quidditch itself wasn't a big deal, but it is - everyone is interested in Quidditch. As Hermione rightly wonders, is that all boys care about? But it's not just boys, it's the whole school. Players are attacked and cursed, hexed and jynxed in corridors. Rude songs are sung at matches about players. Enormous importance is placed on the sport, but far from ensuring a level playing field, Hogwarts sees no problem in letting rich kids outfit their teams with the best equipment possible.

Again, I should stress this is not a negative thread, or for complaints. There are plenty of positive examples, amusing parts rather than dark ones, so I hope someone comes up with a few of their own.

[Phil_Stone]

throughout the series we see that the wizarding world is not a utopia, and that their general sense of justice is perhaps not as well developed as the nation in which they live. (Having been raised there, Harry knows Muggle justce as a schoolboy understands it, and realizes that the Ministry falls short.) Or that some principles of justce are not well established, and are in flux with the sentiments of the times. Post 911 in America saw many people abandon the Constitution for what they believed was security, and some still take this view.

That Fudge puts Hagrid in Azkaban without a trial, or even evidence of his involvement in the Chamber foreshadows the Wizarding injustices exposed in the next book, Prisoner of Azkaban. There we learn that a supposed accomplice in the death of Harry's parents was never actually tried, just put away. And this in turn links the injustices of the past to the present when Stan Shunpike is arrested as a Deatheater.

A system which allows Dolores Umbridge to remain at the Ministry after her crimes of Order of the Phoenix is clearly flawed. But the death of Scrimgoer serves to remind us that not all concerned with wizarding justice are evil, or weak.

The whole issue of SPEW would take more than a few lines to consider, but a couple things seem to be clear. First, Hermione is generally JKR's moral voice. Secondly, though Dobby is heroic, there is never any explanation for why he and he alone should be a free elf, but plenty of evidence of the wizarding society using various means to maintain their position of dominance in the magical world. Thirdly, JKR's other moral voice, Dumbledore, seems entirely supportive of Dobby's freedom, and clearly endorses fair treatment for elves. But he lacks the power to free the school's elves. And the obvious question is raised: Why should any person fear freedom? Freedom to leave doesn't oblige one to leave. And how does the situation of the house elves foreshadow the situation (and reaction) of the Ministry and the Wizarding society to Voldemort's subjegation in Deathly Hallows?

[inthebreeze]

All good points, nice post.

[Lord_Cadogan]

The first book is full of pretty alarming subtleties. Namely the fact that Dumbledore allows a giant man-eating three headed dog patrol a school corridor behind a door even a first year can open with a simple unlocking spell, and thinks asking everyone "please don't go there" at the start of term feast is sufficient (as if that wouldn't entice kids further).

Also I find bludgers a bit ridiculous. School age children engage in a game where it is encouraged to wack cannon balls at each other's heads as hard as possible? Even at a professional level this is absurd. At best this results in broken bones, at worst being knocked off your broom mid flight and falling god knows how far.

[inthebreeze]

Good catch with the bludgers - I remember thinking I must have misread Wood's description of them, and for a while I imagined them as roughly the same as being hit with by a larger baseball; that it would hurt like crazy and in rare occasions injure you, but bludgers really are just that - cannon balls. Forget the obvious fact that being hit with one would knock you off your broom and likely to your death if you were particularly high up, but if you were hit at even a slow speed with a cannon ball it could crack your skull in two like a coconut. Make all the rationalizations that wizards can mend broken bones and heal wounds with ease - you're not staying on your broom with a cracked skull, and it seems to be entirely up to a teacher paying attention enough to slow your fall. The snitch seems to be of school-level difficulty, so it seems weird they play with professional bludgers - you'd think something more akin to slightly-heavier muggle dodgeballs would be what they use at Hogwarts. Something substantial enough to give you a good wallop but nothing near as hard as they seem to use.

[Fury]

Hermione and Krum's relationship - Just the simple fact that Krum is probably 17-almost 18 and Hermione is... 15 (almost a year older than Harry and Ron, so yeah). It just seemed kind of strange to me. I never liked their relationship that much.

[Lord_Cadogan]

I rationalise it that they're actually a lot lighter/less substantial than they seem (possibly hollow), especially school level bludgers, and that they magically don't exceed certain speeds. Of course the rogue bludger in COS seemed a lot more dangerous than this but remember it was cursed by Dobby to injure and as far as I know it's the only student/bludger collision described in the books.

The falling thing bothers me too though. When Harry falls off his broom in POA his friends' reaction is a pretty non chalant "lucky Dumbledore was there". A lot more than lucky if the implication is that he would have fallen to his death otherwise. Shouldn't this be the umpire's job?

[Dobson]

The biggest thing that always shocked me in DH was when the trio & Griphook are walking up to Gringotts and Ron stuns the man that approaches Bellatrix/Hermione and then Travers comes over and says:

"How did it offend you?"

I received a large jolt the first time I read that, because even though Travers is a Death Eater, I was thrown off balance by the fact that he referred to the Muggle as an object - "it". In other words, he was more concerned about Bellatrix's well-being than the Muggle who Ron had just stunned and was begging for his children.

We don't even hear Voldemort calling Muggles "its" -- yes he calls them Muggles, but all wizards do. That Travers regarded the man as a worthless piece of dirt is repulsive and not to mention downright offensive.

[Arcus]

Originally Posted by Lord_Cadogan

Also I find bludgers a bit ridiculous. School age children engage in a game where it is encouraged to wack cannon balls at each other's heads as hard as possible? Even at a professional level this is absurd. At best this results in broken bones, at worst being knocked off your broom mid flight and falling god knows how far.

It's important to remember the context in which things like this take place and how many unpleasant things are easily solved with magic.

To us a broken bone is a long painful ordeal, whereas in the magical world Madam Pomfrey "can mend broken bones in an instant." The consequences of breaking your nose (or skull or any bone) are not so severe if they can be immediately fixed.

The same logic applies to "falling God knows how far." Harry, actually does fall while playing quidditch in the third book and is saved with a simple flick of Dumbledore's wand. I think we can assume there are precautions taken for professional games as well.

What's dangerous from a "muggle" standpoint is not necessarily dangerous in Harry Potter's world.

[Sergio182]

What has always surprised me is the fact that the car used in the Chamber of Secrets is never heard of or know through out the whole series after the book I mentioned. Well I least I can't recall anywhere actually read after HP CoS about that flying car, and it has always bothered me why JKR hasn't said anything about that car. I know that it might sound strange for you that I'm wondering about this car, and a bit odd, but it's one of the coolest transport they had in the wizarding world in my opinion...

Also something that really annoyed me was that absurd relationship Harry had with Cho Chang, I never quite liked her, she was quite off from being loyal to Harry. I know she didn't turn him in to the Umbridge in OotP but she was a good friend to the student that did, and that really annoyed me Cho always defended her.

[SyPikaPwnPotter]

Originally Posted by Phil_Stone

The whole issue of SPEW would take more than a few lines to consider, but a couple things seem to be clear. First, Hermione is generally JKR's moral voice. Secondly, though Dobby is heroic, there is never any explanation for why he and he alone should be a free elf, but plenty of evidence of the wizarding society using various means to maintain their position of dominance in the magical world. Thirdly, JKR's other moral voice, Dumbledore, seems entirely supportive of Dobby's freedom, and clearly endorses fair treatment for elves. But he lacks the power to free the school's elves. And the obvious question is raised: Why should any person fear freedom? Freedom to leave doesn't oblige one to leave. And how does the situation of the house elves foreshadow the situation (and reaction) of the Ministry and the Wizarding society to Voldemort's subjegation in Deathly Hallows?

The thing is in the books Dobby is described as crazy and Dumbledore is regarded as crazy (mental, cracked etc.) multiple times.
Maybe its because Dobby comes from a bad household and if we look at it throughout the books no other elf is treated as badly as Dobby is treated.
Even Kreacher's treatment from Sirius wasnt that bad. So it makes sense he wants freedom like any other, as opposed to Hermionies statements that the house elves are brainwashed, maybe Dobby is unintentionally 'brainwashed' into thinking that a lot of wizards are bad to house elves

The house elves are another being they arent humans, they probably recieve a different level of satisfaction when helping someone, humans recieve satisfaction but house elves probably receive ten-fold that.

[lumoshemuttered]

While good-intentioned, I agree that Hermione just simply didn't seem to grasp the concept that no one else found her SPEW campaign logical.

I was thinking about this yesterday while I was reading OotP; the scene where Harry has the vision of Sirius being tortured, but Hermione hesitantly wonders if he has a "saving people thing" and seems shocked when he says they need to leave "right now" as opposed to later. I mean... obviously she was correct in that Sirius wasn't really in danger, but she wasn't exactly citing "could have been a trick of Voldemort" as her reason. If Harry really did see that, and they were assuming it was a true vision, how could she bring up Harry saving Gabrielle from the merpeople as a similar incident? It just seemed a bit weird.

Also, in addition to what someone said about how could Dumbledore let a ridiculously dangerous three-headed dog in the school in an easily accessible place- it does seem silly in retrospect that three eleven-year-olds got past the obstacles set by the highly skilled Hogwarts professors who had many resources at their disposals. I'm not doubting the trio's aptitude, more the fact that that was really the best security they could put into place.

Another thing; Dumbledore seems extremely calm at the end of SS, considering he'd just received the knowledge that Voldemort was literally on the back of a professor's head for the entire school year. Voldemort. Unseen for ten years. In the school for a year. On the back of a teacher's head. It just feels like if that had happened in one of the later books (which had a darker tone), it would have been mindblowing. Everyone kind of seems to brush the fact off.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally Posted by Fury

Hermione and Krum's relationship - Just the simple fact that Krum is probably 17-almost 18 and Hermione is... 15 (almost a year older than Harry and Ron, so yeah). It just seemed kind of strange to me. I never liked their relationship that much.

Ehh nah. I didnt find this odd at all. In my freshman year of high school i dated a Senior. I was about 14 when we started dating. He was like 17. So really, Hermione and Krum's deal wasnt odd to me at all. (in fact, im not seeing why this would be odd for anyone...)

The subject of bullying in the books is wishywashy to say the least. Why do the bullies get away with it? Draco bullies Harry constantly over the course of the series yet nothing is ever done. Draco and his cronies hardly ever even get a detention for it. And dont get me started on the Snape/Marauders subject. Why doesnt anyone step in?

[inthebreeze]

I agree, in truth I can't really imagine a scenario where a three-year age difference in any kind of friendship would be weird. The friendship itself could of course be a strange one but Hermione at 15 with Krum at 18 isn't weird at all, and if they stayed together, it would be 17/20, 19/22, 21/24 before they knew it. It would grow exponentially less weird in a very short span of time.

Another thing in the spirit of this thread - I can't remember the exact quote, but doesn't Malfoy on the train in PS, the second time he's ever talked to Harry, immediately warn Harry when Harry rejects his handshake that he'll 'go the same way as your parents'? I might have the quote wrong but that is a ridiculous thing for an 11-year old child to even know about, let alone say, let alone say like that.

[Abbsalah]

This is kind of weird, but it always sort of upset me that Dumbledore made Gryffindor win the house cup at the end of book 1. I mean--I do think the trio and Neville deserve recognition for all they did, but imagine being in Slytherin at that feast. You'd be so excited you won the house cup, and there were decorations, and then all the sudden, in front of everyone, Dumbledore (who was a Gryffindor) pulls the rug out from under you. And then all of the other houses (Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff included) are so excited and in-your-face about it. It doesn't exactly foster a good relationship between Slytherin and the rest of the school!

[LordThingy]

This is something I just realized today...

In Half-Blood Prince, Slughorn constantly talks about how Harry has inherited his mother's talent for potions. We all know Harry was only good because of the Prince's book, but was Lily receiving help in potions from the Prince as well? Her and Severus were best friends in school. It seems that Lily and her famous potions skills were most likely just a result of her getting help from Severus in class and with homework, which is why Harry's potion making reminds Slughorn of Lily's. They both used the Prince's techniques.

[Hannah_337]

Originally Posted by LordThingy

This is something I just realized today...

In Half-Blood Prince, Slughorn constantly talks about how Harry has inherited his mother's talent for potions. We all know Harry was only good because of the Prince's book, but was Lily receiving help in potions from the Prince as well? Her and Severus were best friends in school. It seems that Lily and her famous potions skills were most likely just a result of her getting help from Severus in class and with homework, which is why Harry's potion making reminds Slughorn of Lily's. They both used the Prince's techniques.

I had never thought of that! I love that idea so much

[Quaphasia]

Goblet of Fire: It astonished me that Dumbledore, supposedly the only wizard Voldemort (and also Grindelwald) was ever afraid of and one of the bestest wizards of all times, never even noticed that a dangerous Death Eater and Azkaban fugitive gave lessons in his school for a whole year. What the ...? I mean, he can be invisible without a cloak and do all sorts of twisted magic, but is deluded by POLYJUICE POTION?

Note: Same goes for Philosopher's Stone. How come almighty Dumbledore never noticed that Voldemort took residence on the back of the head of one of his teachers.

Prisoner of Azkaban: Strange to think that, despite all the magic and protective spells that surround Hogwarts, Sirius could easily get into the castle several times. I mean, Sirius is undoubteldy talented and gifted, but I doubt that any Death Eater couldn't do the same? Or Voldemort?

Prisoner of Azkaban: Why in the world were the students gathered in the Great Hall after Sirius was seen in Hogwarts? I mean, the castle needed to be searched, alright. But aren't all Hogwarts students sleeping in the great hall a much easier target for a killer than them scattered everywhere in the castle? After all, he was thought to kill 20+ Muggles at one time.

[inthebreeze]

Another part of Prisoner of Azkaban I've always had trouble accepting was that if Sirius could escape Azkaban simply by taking his dog form.. WHY DID HE WAIT TWELVE YEARS TO BOTHER TRYING THIS?

[Abbsalah]

Originally Posted by inthebreeze

Another part of Prisoner of Azkaban I've always had trouble accepting was that if Sirius could escape Azkaban simply by taking his dog form.. WHY DID HE WAIT TWELVE YEARS TO BOTHER TRYING THIS?

That's a really good point. I always thought it had something to do with the clipping of the Weasleys in the paper, when Sirius noticed Scabbers/Pettigrew in the photo with them, and realized that he was at Hogwarts. He had been sort of resigned until then, but I guess that gave him the motivation to go do something and kill Peter? (It's not a perfect theory--if I were an Animagus I would've gotten my tail out of there much quicker as well!)