Little Questions Answered v.20

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by JohanT

Unless, if possible, Voldemort's thoughts were on that owl? I cannot recall properly, so I cannot say if Voldemort was expecting an owl from Crouch Jr. I'd say that he was, as he was the one to alert him about his father's escape. There can be no doubt that he was awaiting a response as to the results of his request for the death of Crouch Sr. As a result of Voldemort's probable impatience for the owl's arrival, Harry's own dream was a reflection of this.

It seems a bit more literal than that:

GoF: The Dream He was riding on the back of an eagle owl, soaring through the clear blue sky toward an old, ivy-covered house set high on a hillside. Lower and lower they flew, the wind blowing pleasantly in Harry’s face, until they reached a dark and broken window in the upper story of the house and entered. Now they were flying along a gloomy passageway, to a room at the very end . . . through the door they went, into a dark room whose windows were boarded up. . . . Harry had left the owl’s back . . . he was watching, now, as it fluttered across the room, into a chair with its back to him. . . . There were two dark shapes on the floor beside the chair . . . both of them were stirring. . . .

But maybe so.

[willfitz]

One thing about 'the dream' to consider, though, is that it is, in fact, a dream. In dreams, our mind goes out of its way to try to make the neurons which are firing away resemble something reasonable. Whatever he had been dreaming about before entering Voldemort's mind might have involved flying, and his mind created the owl flight in order to segue into it reasonably. I don't think that the owl flight could be connected to Voldemort's thoughts unless he was actually possessing the owl, as he was in OotP with Nagini.

That said, I don't think that the term 'inconsistency' is avoidable here, as his dreams and visions of Voldemort are typically first-person through Voldy's own eyes after GoF. This dream is consistent with The Frank Bryce dream, but inconsistent with the dreams in OotP to DH, I think.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Except that Harry is first flying with the owl that is delivering the message to Voldemort that Crouch, Sr. is dead. I think it might be an plot inconsistency.

The hawk owl landed in the chair where Voldy was "sitting", which is when Harry also entered the room. Either Voldemort was controlling the owl, and/or concentrating on it as it came near enough that Voldy could pick up its presence, which is why Harry had that thought. Maybe Voldemort was watching it approach from a distance.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by willfitz

One thing about 'the dream' to consider, though, is that it is, in fact, a dream. In dreams, our mind goes out of its way to try to make the neurons which are firing away resemble something reasonable. Whatever he had been dreaming about before entering Voldemort's mind might have involved flying, and his mind created the owl flight in order to segue into it reasonably. I don't think that the owl flight could be connected to Voldemort's thoughts unless he was actually possessing the owl, as he was in OotP with Nagini.

That said, I don't think that the term 'inconsistency' is avoidable here, as his dreams and visions of Voldemort are typically first-person through Voldy's own eyes after GoF. This dream is consistent with The Frank Bryce dream, but inconsistent with the dreams in OotP to DH, I think.

While it is a definite possibility that Harry had been dreaming of flying, and thus the owl appeared to create an accurate sequence between his flying visual and Voldemort's own thoughts, I would say that there is also a possibility, since Voldemort was focused on the owl, that Harry imagined the owl as a result. To be precise on why this theory is applicable, I think that there were times in Ootp where Harry had glimpses into the Department of Mysteries from Voldemort's own mind (occasions where Nagini was not involved).

As for the inconsistency, this could be attributed to the recent blood connection between them. Before that, the connection shared was that of a horcrux, and the discrepancy between the instances in which Harry is experiencing Voldemort's thoughts as an outside observer and in which Harry is experiencing it all first hand could be due to the change in nature of their bond. As the connection strengthened positively when Voldemort stole Harry's blood for his own, Harry could now see through Voldemort's own eyes, whereas he may have been limited to small flashes of Voldemort's doings before, as he was just a piece of his soul, outside of his body.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by JohanT

As for the inconsistency, this could be attributed to the recent blood connection between them. Before that, the connection shared was that of a horcrux, and the discrepancy between the instances in which Harry is experiencing Voldemort's thoughts as an outside observer and in which Harry is experiencing it all first hand could be due to the change in nature of their bond. As the connection strengthened positively when Voldemort stole Harry's blood for his own, Harry could now see through Voldemort's own eyes, whereas he may have been limited to small flashes of Voldemort's doings before, as he was just a piece of his soul, outside of his body.

I think that the connection between Harry & Voldemort were different pre-GOF because Voldemort did not have a proper body; not because of the blood use. The only magical property in Harry's blood is Harry's protection from death by Voldemort; yes, Voldemort could physically touch Harry now as a result, but that did not negate the protection from death. But back to "dream" -- I think Harry only thought it was a dream because he had not had such a direct experience with Voldemort's mind before...remember that even at the start of GOF, Voldemort has at least some semblance of a body and I think that made all the difference for Harry to see Voldemort's thoughts. This was the first time Harry's soul-piece connected to a Voldemort enclosed in living flesh, and this was before Harry's blood was used.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think that the connection between Harry & Voldemort were different pre-GOF because Voldemort did not have a proper body; not because of the blood use. The only magical property in Harry's blood is Harry's protection from death by Voldemort; yes, Voldemort could physically touch Harry now as a result, but that did not negate the protection from death. But back to "dream" -- I think Harry only thought it was a dream because he had not had such a direct experience with Voldemort's mind before...remember that even at the start of GOF, Voldemort has at least some semblance of a body and I think that made all the difference for Harry to see Voldemort's thoughts. This was the first time Harry's soul-piece connected to a Voldemort enclosed in living flesh, and this was before Harry's blood was used.

When speaking about the blood connection, I was observing the differences in Harry's visions between GoF and Ootp, specifically, not the prior books. I think it could be pinpointed on the now shared blood. Before that is an entirely different story, for, as you say, Voldemort did not have a corporeal form. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe he had any dreams before Voldemort assumed the form of a crouched child. Therefore, I do not believe that the change in perspective, when Harry experiences Voldemort's thoughts and experiences, are to be coupled with Voldemort creating a physical form for himself. The physical form would allow Harry to see into Voldemort's mind, but it does not explain, in my opinion, the contrasting view points that Harry takes in GoF and Ootp. In GoF, he is simply observing the scene, but from Ootp and onwards, he is watching from Voldemort's own presence. Unless, of course, one were to argue that Voldemort's final form, his full human body, was the cause of Harry's first-hand visuals from Voldemort's own eyes.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by JohanT

When speaking about the blood connection, I was observing the differences in Harry's visions between GoF and Ootp, specifically, not the prior books. I think it could be pinpointed on the now shared blood. Before that is an entirely different story, for, as you say, Voldemort did not have a corporeal form. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe he had any dreams before Voldemort assumed the form of a crouched child. Therefore, I do not believe that the change in perspective, when Harry experiences Voldemort's thoughts and experiences, are to be coupled with Voldemort creating a physical form for himself. The physical form would allow Harry to see into Voldemort's mind, but it does not explain, in my opinion, the contrasting view points that Harry takes in GoF and Ootp. In GoF, he is simply observing the scene, but from Ootp and onwards, he is watching from Voldemort's own presence. Unless, of course, one were to argue that Voldemort's final form, his full human body, was the cause of Harry's first-hand visuals from Voldemort's own eyes.

Your last sentence sums up exactly what I'm arguing -- that seeing through Voldemort's eyes doesn't happen until Voldemort regains a proper human body (I don't believe the blood has anything to do with seeing visions, however). Harry's hawk owl "dream" in GOF is, I beleve, due to Voldemort having a semblance of a physical form through the "crouched child" body which served him well enough to hold a wand and cast spells. Prior to that, as Vapormort, Harry only had pain or odd sensations in his scar, and Vapormort did not seem to constantly stay with Quirrell in the beginning, only after Quirrell failed to get the Stone stolen from Gringotts.

[Schlubalybub]

In a way, I agree...the blood itself had nothing to do with the visions, but I do think that they were giving him access to Voldemort's actual sight as opposed to being a viewer from above...at least that's what I think

[merrymarge]

What about the use of a wand? In DH, after Harry's wand was broken, he thought he wasn't getting clear images from Voldemort. He thought it had something to do with his broken wand.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Schlubalybub

In a way, I agree...the blood itself had nothing to do with the visions, but I do think that they were giving him access to Voldemort's actual sight as opposed to being a viewer from above...at least that's what I think

Except Voldy (where the owl landed) is sitting in a chair with its back to Harry's view, and he sees the wand come forward from the side of the chair. So he can't be seeing through Voldy's eyes there.

Originally Posted by merrymarge

What about the use of a wand? In DH, after Harry's wand was broken, he thought he wasn't getting clear images from Voldemort. He thought it had something to do with his broken wand.

I don't think that matters, because some of the clearest images Harry has from Voldy is right after the escape from Godric's Hollow, where Voldy is standing in the window (Harry sees through Voldy's eyes), and remembers all the details of the event from the night Harry was attacked & his parents killed. And Harry's wand had already been broken at that point.

[merrymarge]

Well, is Harry having a dream or a vision? I think they are two different things. He dreamt of a flying motorcycle when he was younger. he dreamt of Professor McGonagall playing the bagpipes in the ROR and Cho Chang yelling at him because Harry promised her lots of Chocolate Frog Cards because Cedric did.
I think when Voldemort is involved, Harry is having visions and if Voldemort isn't involved, he is having a normal dream.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by merrymarge

Well, is Harry having a dream or a vision? I think they are two different things. He dreamt of a flying motorcycle when he was younger. he dreamt of Professor McGonagall playing the bagpipes in the ROR and Cho Chang yelling at him because Harry promised her lots of Chocolate Frog Cards because Cedric did.
I think when Voldemort is involved, Harry is having visions and if Voldemort isn't involved, he is having a normal dream.

I think everyone agrees it's a vision, not a dream. Harry only thinks it's a dream because it's the first time he's had a visual connection with Voldemort...he just doesn't know it yet.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think everyone agrees it's a vision, not a dream. Harry only thinks it's a dream because it's the first time he's had a visual connection with Voldemort...he just doesn't know it yet.

Well, sure, for the main part, it's a vision, but there is no guarantee about what the owl part is.

Right now I'm inclined to believe that because Voldemort was focused on the owl, that's what Harry saw. This is consistent with the visions of the DoM in OotP.

[mirrormere]

The dream with the owl is the second one he has about LV. The first was in the first chapter of the book, though it's done a bit differently. The first one seems to start with reality and then we find out that Harry is dreaming about it. In reality we know history of he man, Frank Bryce, as well as his name. But Harry isn't privy to that info. However, Harry sees the scene through Frank's eyes. Perhaps this is JKR's way of progressing from simple scar pain when LV is is disembodied, to visuals of what is going on when LV has a rudimentary body, to actually seeing through LV eyes when he is fully reincarnated.

As for dream vs. vision, JKR calls it a dream, so . . ?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

The dream with the owl is the second one he has about LV. The first was in the first chapter of the book, though it's done a bit differently. The first one seems to start with reality and then we find out that Harry is dreaming about it. In reality we know history of he man, Frank Bryce, as well as his name. But Harry isn't privy to that info. However, Harry sees the scene through Frank's eyes. Perhaps this is JKR's way of progressing from simple scar pain when LV is is disembodied, to visuals of what is going on when LV has a rudimentary body, to actually seeing through LV eyes when he is fully reincarnated.

As for dream vs. vision, JKR calls it a dream, so . . ?

In addition, with regards to the Frank Bryce dream, it isn't made explicitly clear whether what is narrated is what Harry was watching. All we know is that he saw the same events occur inside the room, but can we really be sure of his POV? I'm just going from memory here...

That's unlike the dream with the owl, where it does definitively say that Harry was riding the back of the owl (so to speak).

You raise a few good points there, mirrormere.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

The dream with the owl is the second one he has about LV. The first was in the first chapter of the book, though it's done a bit differently. The first one seems to start with reality and then we find out that Harry is dreaming about it. In reality we know history of he man, Frank Bryce, as well as his name. But Harry isn't privy to that info. However, Harry sees the scene through Frank's eyes.

I do not think this is true. Firstly, as willfitz says, it is a bit difficult to know from where the information is coming from in that scene: historical narration, Frank's perspective, or Harry's perspective. But I think all 3 are different. For the most part, it does seem that Harry saw what Frank saw. However, Harry distinctly notes that he saw Frank in the dream ("...an old man Harry had seen only in a dream was now pushing himself out of the end of the wand just as Cedric had done..." GoF Ch. 34), which indicates, to me, that Harry was not seeing the scene through Frank's eyes. Instead, it seems like he had a similar vantage point as Frank (he saw Voldemort's rudimentary body the same time Frank did), but he was just an onlooker like he was in the eagle owl dream.

[mirrormere]

Sorry! Misspoke (mis-typed?) It is more like the owl where Harry's POV is nearly identical to the POV character--the caretaker, Frank, and the owl. My point was it seems an intermediate device that can't really be explained.

[merrymarge]

I am wondering about the branch of "Everlasting Fire" that Hagrid gave the Giants. How did he carry it to them? Was it already lit by Dumbledore? If not, how did Hagrid light the branch? Pink Umbrella?

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by merrymarge

I am wondering about the branch of "Everlasting Fire" that Hagrid gave the Giants. How did he carry it to them? Was it already lit by Dumbledore? If not, how did Hagrid light the branch? Pink Umbrella?

Maybe he carried the everlasting flame in a jar like Hermione carries around her bluebells flames that the Trio uses to keep warm between classes. When he got to the valley where the giants were, he could have picked up any ol' branch, dumped the everlasting flames on it and set the branch on fire. And maybe the reason the branch doesn't burn away is because of the properties of everlasting fire - that whatever it burns must also be everlasting.

[ccollinsmith]

Question: Has JKR ever given us a history of portkeys? (such as, who invented them and when?)

The first record of broom transport occurs in an illuminated manuscript dated 962 AD. This seems to have been the first magical form of transport in the West. Floo powder was invented about three centuries later.

But what about the portkey?