Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I agree, Sirius isn't an objective source, but being someone on the receiving end of the curses Snape might or might not have known in his first year, I'm inclined to believe Sirius. And as others throughout the forums have said, if we are to believe anything said about the past then we must then believe that what we are told about the past is true. Hence: What Sirius says is true.

"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year"
-Sirius Black, GoF, Chapter 27.

When Snape arrived at hogwarts, he came from Spinner's End - an area which seemed to only contain muggles, with the exception of Lily, and his mother. His mother appears to have been abused at the hands of her husband, and young Severus appears to have been neglected. I suspect his mother didn't even focus enough attention on him to even notice his clothes were ill fitting. And, if I remember correctly, underaged wizarding children could not do magic, unless they were in magical homes, which Snape was not, since his mother was married to a muggle and living in a non-wizarding community.

Severus could not have taught himself a curse without a visit from the MoM, even if he had wanted to, IMHO. My guess is that he had no magical teaching whatsoever, except for perhaps his mother's hand-me-down textbooks, and he would not have been able to practice any of it without getting into trouble from the MoM.

[wolfbrother]

I think that Sirius was exaggerating here but I think he told the general truth. Within a few months of Hogwarts, Snape probably learnt a whole bunch of spells and curses and could probably do them better than students years above him.

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year"
-Sirius Black, GoF, Chapter 27.

When Snape arrived at hogwarts, he came from Spinner's End - an area which seemed to only contain muggles, with the exception of Lily, and his mother. His mother appears to have been abused at the hands of her husband, and young Severus appears to have been neglected. I suspect his mother didn't even focus enough attention on him to even notice his clothes were ill fitting. And, if I remember correctly, underaged wizarding children could not do magic, unless they were in magical homes, which Snape was not, since his mother was married to a muggle and living in a non-wizarding community.

Severus could not have taught himself a curse without a visit from the MoM, even if he had wanted to, IMHO. My guess is that he had no magical teaching whatsoever, except for perhaps his mother's hand-me-down textbooks, and he would not have been able to practice any of it without getting into trouble from the MoM.

Well yes but it says he knew more curses than most seventh years. It never says he'd actually used them before. Hermione knew a lot of spells too when she arrived at Hogwarts. I think what Sirius meant there is that Snape simply knew a lot of curses not that he performed them. He seemed very excited when talking about magic, so perhaps during classes he couldn't help but ask the teachers about more advanced spells and curses he had read about.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I think that Sirius was exaggerating here but I think he told the general truth. Within a few months of Hogwarts, Snape probably learnt a whole bunch of spells and curses and could probably do them better than students years above him.

Other than the probable accidental magic of the limb falling on Petunia, we don't see Severus as any wunderkind of magic. He knows a lot of information, similar to Hermione when she arrived. But, like Hermione, IMO it was theory and he didn't have any practical experience with it. As MerryLore pointed out, if he'd been doing anything other than accidental magic the MoM would have been right on it, especially in a Muggle neighborhood where it would be noticed even more.

But, there is nothing in canon that says Severus learned a whole bunch of spells and curses, anymore than Sirius, James, Lily, Lupin, or any of the other students in his first year. We don't see him as exceptional in anything but Potions, and that is exhibited in his textbook in HBP. But, he was in his sixth year when he made all of those notes. If he'd learned them earlier than that, I think they'd have been spread out through all of his textbooks up to that time, not just concentrated in that one. IMO, once he didn't have anything else to concentrate on he threw himself into Potion making and mastered it.

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

Well yes but it says he knew more curses than most seventh years. It never says he'd actually used them before. Hermione knew a lot of spells too when she arrived at Hogwarts. I think what Sirius meant there is that Snape simply knew a lot of curses not that he performed them. He seemed very excited when talking about magic, so perhaps during classes he couldn't help but ask the teachers about more advanced spells and curses he had read about.

Other than Sirius' non-objective statement, we see no proof that Severus knew so much more than other students about Dark spells or any other magic through his first few years. Sometime during his fifth year it seems he invented Levicorpus, (Lupin mentions it became a fad about then) and, since he cut James' face during SWM, he may have been familiar with Sectumsempra, which he may or may not have invented. He just makes a note in his book that it's for enemies, not any particulars. I think if he'd invented it he'd have had more notes about it, like he had about the potion making. He seemed to be a very detail oriented person (example: the detailed answer sheet Harry refers to in TPT that Severus had given for his DADA O.W.L.S.).

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Other than the probable accidental magic of the limb falling on Petunia, we don't see Severus as any wunderkind of magic. He knows a lot of information, similar to Hermione when she arrived. But, like Hermione, IMO it was theory and he didn't have any practical experience with it. As MerryLore pointed out, if he'd been doing anything other than accidental magic the MoM would have been right on it, especially in a Muggle neighborhood where it would be noticed even more.

I'm not saying he did magic before coming to school. I'm saying he probably started showing his skills after joining Hogwarts, much like Hermione.

But, there is nothing in canon that says Severus learned a whole bunch of spells and curses, anymore than Sirius, James, Lily, Lupin, or any of the other students in his first year. We don't see him as exceptional in anything but Potions, and that is exhibited in his textbook in HBP. But, he was in his sixth year when he made all of those notes. If he'd learned them earlier than that, I think they'd have been spread out through all of his textbooks up to that time, not just concentrated in that one. IMO, once he didn't have anything else to concentrate on he threw himself into Potion making and mastered it.

I think there is enough indication that Snape was a studious kid. He may have excelled at Potions but I don't think he did too bad at the other subjects.He invented his own spells, something which is not taught in Hogwarts so he must have had a very good understanding of the fundamentals behind magic.
Additionally, I think the Marauders probably knew more spells than average themselves so if Snape was on par with them, he'd still have been ahead of the curve.

The Dark Arts has always sounded vague to me. What distinguishes the dark spells from other spells ? The spells that violate natural law can be classified as dark arts but I'm not sure about spells like Sectumsempra.

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

But, there is nothing in canon that says Severus learned a whole bunch of spells and curses, anymore than Sirius, James, Lily, Lupin, or any of the other students in his first year. We don't see him as exceptional in anything but Potions, and that is exhibited in his textbook in HBP. But, he was in his sixth year when he made all of those notes. If he'd learned them earlier than that, I think they'd have been spread out through all of his textbooks up to that time, not just concentrated in that one. IMO, once he didn't have anything else to concentrate on he threw himself into Potion making and mastered it.

One thing that I can't understand is, if he had already invented the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra spells in his fifth year, why did he only write them in his sixth year book? That's a question I've been trying to answer but I didn't come up with anything very probable. The only plausible theory I came up with was that he had owned the book before he needed it at school. It could have been his mother's.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Other than Sirius' non-objective statement, we see no proof that Severus knew so much more than other students about Dark spells or any other magic through his first few years. Sometime during his fifth year it seems he invented Levicorpus, (Lupin mentions it became a fad about then) and, since he cut James' face during SWM, he may have been familiar with Sectumsempra, which he may or may not have invented. He just makes a note in his book that it's for enemies, not any particulars. I think if he'd invented it he'd have had more notes about it, like he had about the potion making. He seemed to be a very detail oriented person (example: the detailed answer sheet Harry refers to in TPT that Severus had given for his DADA O.W.L.S.).

Well yes that's true but I think he was exactly the person to spend all his day buried in books. I don't think his mom took him out to buy him ice-cream or toys or anything a mom usually does for her child and I really doubt he had any friends before Lily; so what else could he do but bury himself in his mom's books. Objective or not, I think Sirius was telling the truth, perhaps exaggerating a little, but still the truth.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I'm not saying he did magic before coming to school. I'm saying he probably started showing his skills after joining Hogwarts, much like Hermione.

In his conversations with Lily he appears to know a lot about the Wizarding World, in general. What one is or is not allowed to do, and such. We're not shown him telling her about specific spells, though.

I think there is enough indication that Snape was a studious kid. He may have excelled at Potions but I don't think he did too bad at the other subjects.He invented his own spells, something which is not taught in Hogwarts so he must have had a very good understanding of the fundamentals behind magic.

I think he was probably on a par with Hermione, as far as capabilities. But, I think his lack of self-esteem and his wanting to fit in may have held him back from showing it. There's nowhere I remember it being mentioned that he was an "outstanding" student. I think Slughorn does allude to his abilities in Potions, but, as I said previously, I don't think he really concentrated on those until his sixth year.

Additionally, I think the Marauders probably knew more spells than average themselves so if Snape was on par with them, he'd still have been ahead of the curve.

Training themselves to be Animagi showed that they were far above-average talents. Severus, while talented, IMO, wasn't as self-assured as we see Sirius after the O.W.L.S. I think he had equal talent but just didn't have the confidence to use it.

The Dark Arts has always sounded vague to me. What distinguishes the dark spells from other spells ? The spells that violate natural law can be classified as dark arts but I'm not sure about spells like Sectumsempra.

We're told what "unforgivable" spells are, but, as you said, the term "Dark Arts" is very vague. I'd think any magic could be "dark" if used for the wrong purpose. I would assume they are talking about spells, hexes, and curses that have a totally negative purpose, though. But, then there are spells like Levicorpus?? That would have seemed to have been a spell with a negative purpose. But, according to Lupin everyone was using it. Does that make all of them guilty of using Dark Magic?

Sectumsempra was a cutting spell and was "for enemies." So, it sounds like it was invented as a defensive spell. Does it mean it was Dark Magic because it caused personal harm?

Yes, you're right. Definitely very vague.

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

One thing that I can't understand is, if he had already invented the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra spells in his fifth year, why did he only write them in his sixth year book? That's a question I've been trying to answer but I didn't come up with anything very probable. The only plausible theory I came up with was that he had owned the book before he needed it at school. It could have been his mother's.

That's a good question. We know Levicorpus was already popular in Severus' fifth year, so why did he wait until his sixth year to write it down? I think he'd not perfected using Sectumsempra (whether he invented it or not), and that's why he waited to make a note in his sixth year book once he'd gotten it down. Both of these spells could be used for defense, which is why I think he was working on them.

Well yes that's true but I think he was exactly the person to spend all his day buried in books. I don't think his mom took him out to buy him ice-cream or toys or anything a mom usually does for her child and I really doubt he had any friends before Lily; so what else could he do but bury himself in his mom's books. Objective or not, I think Sirius was telling the truth, perhaps exaggerating a little, but still the truth.

But, that goes on the assumption that he had books on magic as a child and the time to read them. His father hated magic and, unless Severus was able to smuggle in books about magic, I don't see him having a fully stocked library to spend days on end reading. He lived in a Muggle community, so his access to anything magical was limited. Since he could read when he arrived at Hogwarts, he probably went to a Muggle school (I seriously don't see either parent teaching him that), which means he didn't have unlimited time on his hands.

His mother barely spoke, even when we see her at King's Cross without her husband around. I doubt Severus would have gotten much of his knowledge from her. So, I would guess that he may have had some or all of her text books, which would have included "A History of Magic" and the spell and potions books for her seven years. I don't think he'd have had access to anything anymore advanced than that until he got to Hogwarts. To consider that he knew more Dark Magic when he arrived at Hogwarts than a seventh year, IMO, was very much an exaggeration.

[ignisia]

I think that Severus learning new hexes while at school is more likely than him knowing them upon arrival. However, we have an objective source (namely, the pensieve) that relates to us nearly all the information we have on Snape's childhood and, despite Snape's apparent desire to disclose even memories that make him look bad, there is a huge silence on the topic. Young Severus does not fire off those advanced hexes at James and Sirius when they first meet, and the years between that memory and ~5th year are skipped over. I'd say the train memory makes the literal reading of Sirius' words (i.e. that Severus knew these spells on arrival) look somewhat suspect. And as far as I can tell, we have no information on Severus' first few years at Hogwarts (nor do we know just how knowledgable those seventh years were to have an ickle firstie potentially outstrip them ) to really draw a conclusion about him having learned them later.

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

The only plausible theory I came up with was that he had owned the book before he needed it at school. It could have been his mother's.

I think this is a good idea. The Snapes don't appear to have lived in the most affluent of areas (even in TPT, Petunia acts as though the neighborhood by the river is unimpressive) and, like the Weasleys, may have needed to hand down books rather than get them new. The HBP book contains spells that are edited and crossed-out several times, as though Snape were developing them at that moment. He wouldn't have done that with, say, Levicorpus, which had already been invented at the end of his 5th year, if he'd only received Borage's book in 6th year.

[arithmancer]

Going back to an older topic, the meaning of Snape's "Half-Blood Prince" nickname - I feel it is important to consider not only what Hermione said in that conversation, but also what Harry, our protagonist, had to say in a later conversation, in which Hermione was expressing her distrust of the Prince:

HBP "If he'd been a budding Death Eater he wouldn't have been boasting about being 'half-blood,' would he?"

I feel much the same. I think he was proud of having a magical parent, his Prince mother, but recognized that a half-blood was also "less" to Voldemort's true believers (see, e.g. Bella, whom we are told he knew in school), and nonetheless chose this nickname for himself.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I think that Severus learning new hexes while at school is more likely than him knowing them upon arrival. However, we have an objective source (namely, the pensieve) that relates to us nearly all the information we have on Snape's childhood and, despite Snape's apparent desire to disclose even memories that make him look bad, there is a huge silence on the topic. Young Severus does not fire off those advanced hexes at James and Sirius when they first meet, and the years between that memory and ~5th year are skipped over. I'd say the train memory makes the literal reading of Sirius' words (i.e. that Severus knew these spells on arrival) look somewhat suspect. And as far as I can tell, we have no information on Severus' first few years at Hogwarts (nor do we know just how knowledgable those seventh years were to have an ickle firstie potentially outstrip them ) to really draw a conclusion about him having learned them later.

I was wondering if they did a survey to see how many dark spells the 7th years knew when Severus got there so they could compare them. In truth, I think it was just said to make him look evil right from his arrival at Hogwarts.

I think this is a good idea. The Snapes don't appear to have lived in the most affluent of areas (even in TPT, Petunia acts as though the neighborhood by the river is unimpressive) and, like the Weasleys, may have needed to hand down books rather than get them new. The HBP book contains spells that are edited and crossed-out several times, as though Snape were developing them at that moment. He wouldn't have done that with, say, Levicorpus, which had already been invented at the end of his 5th year, if he'd only received Borage's book in 6th year.

Good points, both of you. I agree that he probably was using a second-hand text book, based on the economic conditions we are shown in his early life. The book may have been his mother's and he may have had it, reading ahead before his sixth year and making notes about things he wanted to carry on with him from his fifth year, like Levicorpus.

It seems he was making the potion notations as he went, though, testing and changing them based on how well the worked (or didn't work).

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

But, that goes on the assumption that he had books on magic as a child and the time to read them. His father hated magic and, unless Severus was able to smuggle in books about magic, I don't see him having a fully stocked library to spend days on end reading. He lived in a Muggle community, so his access to anything magical was limited. Since he could read when he arrived at Hogwarts, he probably went to a Muggle school (I seriously don't see either parent teaching him that), which means he didn't have unlimited time on his hands.

Well I don't know about that...I mean in HBP we are shown his old house and it seems to be neglected by Snape. He didn't clean it so I guess he didn't change the furniture either. I assume he didn't have that many pleasant memories in there so he only used it because he needed to. And we're told that the walls were covered in old leather-bound books. Now we don't know much about his father but I'm not sure he was the type of guy you'd find dead reading poetry books. So those books could very well be his mother's and perhaps, some of them at least, were magic books. He was quite neglected so his parents wouldn't have noticed if he grabbed a book and went to the park or somewhere like that to read it. He could miss all day and his parents wouldn't notice. So it's possible for him to have read magic books before getting into Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

His mother barely spoke, even when we see her at King's Cross without her husband around. I doubt Severus would have gotten much of his knowledge from her. So, I would guess that he may have had some or all of her text books, which would have included "A History of Magic" and the spell and potions books for her seven years. I don't think he'd have had access to anything anymore advanced than that until he got to Hogwarts. To consider that he knew more Dark Magic when he arrived at Hogwarts than a seventh year, IMO, was very much an exaggeration.

I agree that Sirius was perhaps exaggerating but I don't think it improbable that Snape knew quite a few hexes on arrival. Perhaps not more than a seventh year but more than a first year or maybe even second year for sure.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

Going back to an older topic, the meaning of Snape's "Half-Blood Prince" nickname - I feel it is important to consider not only what Hermione said in that conversation, but also what Harry, our protagonist, had to say in a later conversation, in which Hermione was expressing her distrust of the Prince:



I feel much the same. I think he was proud of having a magical parent, his Prince mother, but recognized that a half-blood was also "less" to Voldemort's true believers (see, e.g. Bella, whom we are told he knew in school), and nonetheless chose this nickname for himself.

Oh yes! I've always liked the irony. Harry was defending the Prince against Hermione and Hermione was defending Snape against Harry.

Anyway there is something about this that has struck me as odd. If I remember well, Lupin didn't know who the Half-Blood-Prince was and he was at school with Snape. So maybe Snape kept his nickname to himself. Or if he didn't then only few people knew it because the Marauders clearly did not.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Good points, both of you. I agree that he probably was using a second-hand text book, based on the economic conditions we are shown in his early life. The book may have been his mother's and he may have had it, reading ahead before his sixth year and making notes about things he wanted to carry on with him from his fifth year, like Levicorpus.

It seems he was making the potion notations as he went, though, testing and changing them based on how well the worked (or didn't work).

Well the book was definitely a hand-me down since it was printed before Snape was even born.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

Well I don't know about that...I mean in HBP we are shown his old house and it seems to be neglected by Snape. He didn't clean it so I guess he didn't change the furniture either. I assume he didn't have that many pleasant memories in there so he only used it because he needed to. And we're told that the walls were covered in old leather-bound books. Now we don't know much about his father but I'm not sure he was the type of guy you'd find dead reading poetry books. So those books could very well be his mother's and perhaps, some of them at least, were magic books. He was quite neglected so his parents wouldn't have noticed if he grabbed a book and went to the park or somewhere like that to read it. He could miss all day and his parents wouldn't notice. So it's possible for him to have read magic books before getting into Hogwarts.

By the time we see Severus and his book collection at Spinner's End, he's had quite a few years to amass it. Maybe being denied free access to books as a child caused him to crave having them around as an adult. Or, maybe he used Spinner's End as storage for books that he didn't need right at hand at Hogwart's. I don't think the books were there from the time he was a child.

I agree that Sirius was perhaps exaggerating but I don't think it improbable that Snape knew quite a few hexes on arrival. Perhaps not more than a seventh year but more than a first year or maybe even second year for sure.

We are not shown anything in the books to back up either Sirius' statement or to show that Severus knew anymore than any other First Year when he arrived at Hogwarts. He knew a bit about the Wizarding World, as we see him telling Lily about it, but I don't think he knew how to do any of the spells before he got there.

Oh yes! I've always liked the irony. Harry was defending the Prince against Hermione and Hermione was defending Snape against Harry.

Anyway there is something about this that has struck me as odd. If I remember well, Lupin didn't know who the Half-Blood-Prince was and he was at school with Snape. So maybe Snape kept his nickname to himself. Or if he didn't then only few people knew it because the Marauders clearly did not.

I think it was something he kept to himself, not because he wasn't proud of it, but because he was afraid he'd be made fun of about the nickname. And, IMO, the Marauders would be the last ones he'd want know about it.

Well the book was definitely a hand-me down since it was printed before Snape was even born.

That's probably due to the family's financial condition. I don't see Tobias giving out money to buy new books if used ones will do. That's another reason I think he might have been using his mother's books. It didn't seem that the curriculum at Hogwarts changed that often.

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

By the time we see Severus and his book collection at Spinner's End, he's had quite a few years to amass it. Maybe being denied free access to books as a child caused him to crave having them around as an adult. Or, maybe he used Spinner's End as storage for books that he didn't need right at hand at Hogwart's. I don't think the books were there from the time he was a child.

Yes that is true and what you're saying is plausible. There is one more thing though, Snape's father seemed abusive but I'm not sure he was like the Dursleys. By that I mean that his abuse was just neglect rather than the strict regime the Dursleys imposed on Harry. We know that he was constantly arguing with Snape's mother. Given that situation, I'm not sure he would pay enough attention to Severus to actually forbid him to read.

We are not shown anything in the books to back up either Sirius' statement or to show that Severus knew anymore than any other First Year when he arrived at Hogwarts. He knew a bit about the Wizarding World, as we see him telling Lily about it, but I don't think he knew how to do any of the spells before he got there.

And to back up what I said above, we do indeed know he knew a fair bit about magic and the magical world. Now as someone here has already said, his mother wasn't likely to sit and tell him stories about anything let alone the magical world, especially if his father hated it. He was living in a Muggle community so the only source of information he could have had was books. So he most likely had access to some sort of wizarding books. I know that some of you take what Sirius said as an attempt to paint Snape as a Dark wizard from the very beginning but I see it more as a sign of how much he was neglected, how alone he was as a child because magic seemed his little harbor of peace. The one thing that he was good at, the one thing that no one could take away from him. The excitement when he talks about it is a clear indicator of that.

I think it was something he kept to himself, not because he wasn't proud of it, but because he was afraid he'd be made fun of about the nickname. And, IMO, the Marauders would be the last ones he'd want know about it.

That's probably due to the family's financial condition. I don't see Tobias giving out money to buy new books if used ones will do. That's another reason I think he might have been using his mother's books. It didn't seem that the curriculum at Hogwarts changed that often.

Yes, that's what I thought. He was definitely proud of his name but he was afraid that if people found out, they'd make fun of it as they made fun of everything related to him. I think he might have even been too proud, or liked it too much to risk it to be subject to any mockery so he just kept it to himself instead.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

Yes that is true and what you're saying is plausible. There is one more thing though, Snape's father seemed abusive but I'm not sure he was like the Dursleys. By that I mean that his abuse was just neglect rather than the strict regime the Dursleys imposed on Harry. We know that he was constantly arguing with Snape's mother. Given that situation, I'm not sure he would pay enough attention to Severus to actually forbid him to read.

In the one snippet we see Severus cowering in the corner while his father yells at his mother (verbal abuse to mother, emotional abuse -- at least -- to Severus). This is not the type of person I see putting out money for his son to buy books of any kind, much less books about magic, which we're told Tobias didn't like...along with just about everything else.

When we see Severus talking to Lily about magic, the things he's telling her all seem to be things that he'd find in Bathilda Bagshot's book on the history of magic. That was a standard textbook at Hogwarts, so Eileen probably had a copy, as well as copies of all her other textbooks. That, IMO, would be the limit of Severus' access to books or knowledge of magic.

I think he may have read those books over several times, as he seemed so anxious to attend Hogwarts and become a full-fledged member of the Wizarding World. But, I don't see him having anywhere near the knowledge, especially of Dark Arts, that Sirius accused him of having when he arrived at Hogwarts.

And to back up what I said above, we do indeed know he knew a fair bit about magic and the magical world. Now as someone here has already said, his mother wasn't likely to sit and tell him stories about anything let alone the magical world, especially if his father hated it. He was living in a Muggle community so the only source of information he could have had was books. So he most likely had access to some sort of wizarding books. I know that some of you take what Sirius said as an attempt to paint Snape as a Dark wizard from the very beginning but I see it more as a sign of how much he was neglected, how alone he was as a child because magic seemed his little harbor of peace. The one thing that he was good at, the one thing that no one could take away from him. The excitement when he talks about it is a clear indicator of that.

I don't deny that Severus probably had devoured all of the information about magic that he could get his hands on, however, I still think his resources were very limited. He had nothing nearby, and, Eileen didn't strike me as the bookish type. That's why I think the books he did have access to were just her old text books. He may have found them somewhere in the house, or she may have given them to him. Based on the interaction we see between them at the train station, I'd guess it was the former. I don't think she gave enough of a hoot about Severus or what was going on with him to give him the books outright. She probably had the books in her things somewhere in the house and didn't pay that much attention to what Severus was reading.

And, yes, I do think Sirius was trying to paint Severus with as dark a reputation as he could. There definitely wasn't any love lost there.

Yes, that's what I thought. He was definitely proud of his name but he was afraid that if people found out, they'd make fun of it as they made fun of everything related to him. I think he might have even been too proud, or liked it too much to risk it to be subject to any mockery so he just kept it to himself instead.

It was a shame that he had to hide something the he seemed to be so proud of, his nickname for himself, because he was afraid of being bullied about it.

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

In the one snippet we see Severus cowering in the corner while his father yells at his mother (verbal abuse to mother, emotional abuse -- at least -- to Severus). This is not the type of person I see putting out money for his son to buy books of any kind, much less books about magic, which we're told Tobias didn't like...along with just about everything else.

When we see Severus talking to Lily about magic, the things he's telling her all seem to be things that he'd find in Bathilda Bagshot's book on the history of magic. That was a standard textbook at Hogwarts, so Eileen probably had a copy, as well as copies of all her other textbooks. That, IMO, would be the limit of Severus' access to books or knowledge of magic.

I think he may have read those books over several times, as he seemed so anxious to attend Hogwarts and become a full-fledged member of the Wizarding World. But, I don't see him having anywhere near the knowledge, especially of Dark Arts, that Sirius accused him of having when he arrived at Hogwarts.

I don't deny that Severus probably had devoured all of the information about magic that he could get his hands on, however, I still think his resources were very limited. He had nothing nearby, and, Eileen didn't strike me as the bookish type. That's why I think the books he did have access to were just her old text books. He may have found them somewhere in the house, or she may have given them to him. Based on the interaction we see between them at the train station, I'd guess it was the former. I don't think she gave enough of a hoot about Severus or what was going on with him to give him the books outright. She probably had the books in her things somewhere in the house and didn't pay that much attention to what Severus was reading.

And, yes, I do think Sirius was trying to paint Severus with as dark a reputation as he could. There definitely wasn't any love lost there.

Yeah but those textbooks were certainly more than Sirius or James knew so even if he only knew those, kids are prone to exaggerating (and Sirius was just an overgrown kid) so perhaps Severus was just a kind of Hermione but perhaps less insufferable. I really would like to see how he acted in classes.

It was a shame that he had to hide something the he seemed to be so proud of, his nickname for himself, because he was afraid of being bullied about it.

Yes it was...but he did seem to keep to himself the things that he was proud of, or had reason to be proud of, don't you think? That tells a lot about him I think.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

In the one snippet we see Severus cowering in the corner while his father yells at his mother (verbal abuse to mother, emotional abuse -- at least -- to Severus).

Or they were having an argument... not all arguments require us to suppose an abusive relationship. After all, this is what is discussed at one point in The Prince's Tale:

"How are things at your house?" Lily asked.

A little crease appeared between his eyes.

"Fine," he said.

"They're not arguing anymore?"

"Oh yes, they're arguing," said Snape. He picked up a fistful of leaves and began tearing them apart, apparently unaware of what he was doing. "But it won't be that long and I'll be gone."

I don't doubt that Snape was traumatized by this, but I think we might need to slightly tweak our terms and consider it more of a neglectful enmity between his parents. They may not have ever especially injured each other--we don't know--but between fights there was no time to raise Severus.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

Yeah but those textbooks were certainly more than Sirius or James knew so even if he only knew those, kids are prone to exaggerating (and Sirius was just an overgrown kid) so perhaps Severus was just a kind of Hermione but perhaps less insufferable. I really would like to see how he acted in classes.

Sirius and James both grew up in homes with parents who were into magic. They were both purebloods with parents who more than likely used magic on a regular basis. They didn't need to learn about it from books. They, IMO, would have learned about it first hand. Just watching the Weasley family and how they used magic as the norm, seems to indicate most magical families took it for granted.

To Severus I think it would have been something different and something that set him apart from the others, but may also have set him up to be the target of Muggle kids if they saw him do accidental magic and, like Petunia, thought he was a "freak."

Yes it was...but he did seem to keep to himself the things that he was proud of, or had reason to be proud of, don't you think? That tells a lot about him I think.

Agree. He was a very private person. Maybe that gave him a bit of a leg-up in becoming such a good Occlumens. He was used to keeping things hidden inside.

[sparrowinwinter]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Sirius and James both grew up in homes with parents who were into magic. They were both purebloods with parents who more than likely used magic on a regular basis. They didn't need to learn about it from books. They, IMO, would have learned about it first hand. Just watching the Weasley family and how they used magic as the norm, seems to indicate most magical families took it for granted.

To Severus I think it would have been something different and something that set him apart from the others, but may also have set him up to be the target of Muggle kids if they saw him do accidental magic and, like Petunia, thought he was a "freak."

Yeah but despite the fact they were raised in magical families I don't think they were familiar with any spells, not even the ones in their first year books. I mean look at Ron, he thought that ridiculous 'Sunshine daisies' thing was an actual spell. So if Snape read his mom's old books, he would have known more than Sirius and James.

Agree. He was a very private person. Maybe that gave him a bit of a leg-up in becoming such a good Occlumens. He was used to keeping things hidden inside.

I think he was beyond just private. I mean he was a private person but I think he was afraid in a way that his greatest achievements, the things he was most proud of would somehow be turned into the subject of mockery or used against him (I'd say the Levicorpus spell is quite a good example of that). So he just kept everything he was proud of for himself, to protect it.

Yes I agree, that must have certainly helped with him becoming such a great Occlumens.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

I don't doubt that Snape was traumatized by this, but I think we might need to slightly tweak our terms and consider it more of a neglectful enmity between his parents. They may not have ever especially injured each other--we don't know--but between fights there was no time to raise Severus.

In the OotP memory we are discussing - assuming, as you seem to acccept, that the persons in the memory are Sev's parents - Eileen, not Sev, is "cowering" (cringing or crouching in fear).

OotP and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner…

This makes it not a regular argument between two angry people who are each expressing their views in an animated fashion. This is one person expressing himself in a manner that is frightening the other one (and, also, upseting Sev, who is crying in the corner). It is this quote you bring up that makes me think Tobias was abusive, at the very least in the emotional sense, and possibly in the physical sense as well, to both his wife and child. (Eileen would need to be a timid personality, IMO, to cower when being yelled at if she had no reason to fear for her physical safety. If she was this timid, surely yelling at her and causing her to cower, was emotional abuse).

That Sev describes his parents as "arguing" at a later point in time, when talking to a friend from a more happily functioning family, does not persuade me to your point of view. He also seems to avoid talking about it. Lily brings it up and to me it seems he is trying to minimize how it makes him feel, with his true feelings being given away by his body language (tearing the leaves). He is also clearly eager to escape his circumstances, which is how he views Hogwarts.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter

Yeah but despite the fact they were raised in magical families I don't think they were familiar with any spells, not even the ones in their first year books. I mean look at Ron, he thought that ridiculous 'Sunshine daisies' thing was an actual spell. So if Snape read his mom's old books, he would have known more than Sirius and James.

But, Sirius and James would have seen spells cast by their parents and other witches and wizards around them. I think they were surrounded by magic their whole lives and would have known at least rudimentary spells they'd have learned from watching others and were probably just waiting to use. They were both adventurous, so I would guess they'd have been prepared to get off to a running start once they arrived at Hogwarts.

And they would have had access to books, as well. Whether they read them or not is another matter. But, I don't see Severus coming to Hogwarts anymore capable of spell-casting than James or Severus.

I think he was beyond just private. I mean he was a private person but I think he was afraid in a way that his greatest achievements, the things he was most proud of would somehow be turned into the subject of mockery or used against him (I'd say the Levicorpus spell is quite a good example of that). So he just kept everything he was proud of for himself, to protect it.

Yes I agree, that must have certainly helped with him becoming such a great Occlumens.

I see what you mean. He invented a spell and it was used to taunt him. So, I can see where he'd just keep everything to himself, that he wasnt' providing the ammunition for his "enemies" to attack him with. Letting the nickname he'd picked for himself out would have probably done just that.

and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner…

That was the scene I was referring to, not his discussing his parents' arguments with Lily. I agree that he kind of played that down as an "arguing" rather than the emotional abuse that it was to both Eileen and himself. I don't think he wanted her to know how bad things were at home. And, for the record, arguing in front of children to a point that it makes them feel insecure and traumatized is emotional abuse, even if it isn't directed at them.