Pure-Blood

[SlyEd]

Pure-blood is the term for wizards and witches who claim to be from families with purely magical heritage. Ok, so JKR describes most of these families as "dark" since they turn to dark magic in order to preserve their pure blood line. Now there are noble pure blood families who never discriminated against others (Potter family was one of those i think). My question is : What would you think of these families who try to keep their pure blood but not in a violent way. Just simply to preserve their tradition and heritage witch goes centuries back?
Would you see it as a bad thing?

[merrymarge]

The Weasleys were pure-blood. They weren't violent. And the Black family, not all were violent or prejudice. Look at Sirius, he ran away from home. Then there was his cousin Andromeda. she wasn't prejudice. there were several other Black family members who were blasted off the family tree because they didn't fit in.
We don't know about Dumbledore's family. We can guess they weren't pure-blood, but we don't know.
There might have been other pure-blood families who weren't violent.

[Sphereness]

What would you think of these families who try to keep their pure blood but not in a violent way. Just simply to preserve their tradition and heritage witch goes centuries back? Would you see it as a bad thing?

Yes I would see it as a bad thing. It would involve forcing their children to marry pure bloods - even if those children would actually prefer to marry muggles. It's the same as parents in the non-magical world disapproving of their kids marrying people from a different ethnic background or religion because they "want to preserve their tradition and heritage". Parents should let their kids be free to marry any decent person who they love and who loves them.

[SlyEd]

Originally Posted by Sphereness

Yes I would see it as a bad thing. It would involve forcing their children to marry pure bloods - even if those children would actually prefer to marry muggles. It's the same as parents in the non-magical world disapproving of their kids marrying people from a different ethnic background or religion because they "want to preserve their tradition and heritage". Parents should let their kids be free to marry any decent person who they love and who loves them.

This is all reasonable. But you are forgetting that there are pure blood children who are not forced but simply reject to marry muggleborn. Example : Drako Malfoy. I am sure that even if he had a choice of getting married with anyone he wanted, he would choose pureblooded woman. I feel like it's not up to his parents there. But, again, is he bad for doing it? Nothing wrong, he can marry who ever he wants.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by SlyEd

This is all reasonable. But you are forgetting that there are pure blood children who are not forced but simply reject to marry muggleborn. Example : Drako Malfoy. I am sure that even if he had a choice of getting married with anyone he wanted, he would choose pureblooded woman. I feel like it's not up to his parents there. But, again, is he bad for doing it? Nothing wrong, he can marry who ever he wants.

There are lots of people who prefer to marry only within their own race, or religion, etc. It isn't "bad," per se, and people often make those choices because that's what they're comfortable with. I think it only becomes an issue if you try to subjugate those who are different from yourself.

[Sphereness]

But you are forgetting that there are pure blood children who are not forced but simply reject to marry muggleborn. Example : Drako Malfoy. I am sure that even if he had a choice of getting married with anyone he wanted, he would choose pureblooded woman. I feel like it's not up to his parents there.

The thing is that children - even grown up children - are often very keen to please their parents (even if they don't admit it to themselves). So parents don't have to say: "You are not allowed to marry somebody who is not like us". If children know that their parents would be very very upset / angry if they were to marry somebody outside their own group they are likely to "choose" not to marry somebody like that. But is that really a free choice?

Draco Malfoy is a perfect example. His parents don't have to explicitly forbid him to marry somebody who is not a pureblood. They have made their views about non-purebloods very clear to him. He knows that his parents would be horrified / distraught / furious if he were to marry Hermione (for example) - so he won't. Obviously Draco has also been indoctrinated by his parents and shares their prejudices against non purebloods - but even if he had rejected those biased views I doubt he would choose to completely defy his parents' wishes and risk his relationship with them.

My point is that children of pureblood parents who feel very strongly about "preserving their heritage and tradition" are not really free to choose - even if their parents don't explicitly forbid them marrying non purebloods (unless they are willing to defy their parents and potentially completely break off their relationship with them. But how many people are as brave as Sirius in that regard?)

[Wab]

Originally Posted by Sphereness

My point is that children of pureblood parents who feel very strongly about "preserving their heritage and tradition" are not really free to choose - even if their parents don't explicitly forbid them marrying non purebloods (unless they are willing to defy their parents and potentially completely break off their relationship with them. But how many people are as brave as Sirius in that regard?)

In my experience, plenty. Or to be more precise, I've never encountered any parents who have laid down that ultimatum even when they have sincerely disliked their child's choice.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by SlyEd

Pure-blood is the term for wizards and witches who claim to be from families with purely magical heritage. Ok, so JKR describes most of these families as "dark" since they turn to dark magic in order to preserve their pure blood line. Now there are noble pure blood families who never discriminated against others (Potter family was one of those i think). My question is :

I don't think most of the pureblood families are described as dark - the Potters and Weasleys were not dark. Ernie McMillan was pureblood.
The wizarding world didn't have its own nobility, so families like the Potters and Malfoys, while wealthy, were not nobles.

What would you think of these families who try to keep their pure blood but not in a violent way. Just simply to preserve their tradition and heritage witch goes centuries back?
Would you see it as a bad thing?

Well, seeing what generations of marrying only purebloods did to the Gaunt family, I think it could become a very bad thing.

Originally Posted by Sphereness

My point is that children of pureblood parents who feel very strongly about "preserving their heritage and tradition" are not really free to choose - even if their parents don't explicitly forbid them marrying non purebloods (unless they are willing to defy their parents and potentially completely break off their relationship with them. But how many people are as brave as Sirius in that regard?)

I agree. They are not really free to choose. They're not limiting themselves because of incompatible personalities or values, they're limiting themselves based on something shallow after years of indoctrination.

Originally Posted by Wab

In my experience, plenty. Or to be more precise, I've never encountered any parents who have laid down that ultimatum even when they have sincerely disliked their child's choice.

But in the HP world, this has happened - Andromeda, who was disowned for marrying a Muggleborn. We don't know if her parents laid down an ultimatum or if they simply discarded her.

Clearly, there are some wizarding families whose priorities are their claim to pureblood rather than their children.

[abl385]

The answer to whether it is a bad thing or not is dependent upon how the people who are choosing to maintain their purity are looking at their choices. On the one hand they are not being violent and are not doing anything intentionally to harm others or showcase their superiority. On the other hand they are being quite exclusionary and rejecting the a majority of humans as not good enough. Perhaps they do this subconsciously and without bad intentions. However on a certain level they are deciding that only a certain group of people is good enough for them to marry and that the people who do not fall into this category are not.

[ShadowSonic]

Andromeda and Sirius are not the only Blacks to be disowned, Sirius' own Uncle was removed from the Family Chart because he simply gave Sirius money and the Black who married into the Weasley family (Cedrella Black, who I'm guessing is Arthur's mother) was also removed. And others.

So it seems that even when Purebloods marry one another (Cedrella and Septimus) they can still be disowned, meaning for some families it isn't even enough to be pureblood but the right KIND of pureblood.

[Macindaw]

I don't really think that it's a bad thing if the children want to marry purebloods, but if other people try to make them marry a pureblood, then it would be an arranged marrige, and i think that's wrong.

[Divvie]

Originally Posted by Macindaw

I don't really think that it's a bad thing if the children want to marry purebloods, but if other people try to make them marry a pureblood, then it would be an arranged marrige, and i think that's wrong.

I don't think that an arranged marriage and an enforced marriage are the same thing. I don't see anything wrong with an arranged marriage, as long as all parties are actually ok with both the concept and the process. It's one form of choice. And if there is an acceptance within the family that there are certain criteria for such a choice of spouse (as the are in some cultures regarding class/status, income, religion etc.), then it's a perfectly valid choice imo.

It one is however forced to marry someone against one's will, this is no longer a matter of choice, obviously.

So, as long as someone considers bloodline a relevant criteria for a choice in a spouse and chooses accordingly, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's his/her prerogative. Just as it would be to choose someone without putting any emphasis on bloodline.

Personally, I see the blood purity issue more of a cultural than a "genetic" issue, as it indicates a certain preference for an established culture and tradition imo. Like irl there are people who love to encounter and live among cultures and others who find it alien, it would be like that in the wizarding world. Like they say, it takes all sorts ...

[Barbara_O]

Originally Posted by SlyEd

My question is : What would you think of these families who try to keep their pure blood but not in a violent way. Just simply to preserve their tradition and heritage witch goes centuries back?
Would you see it as a bad thing?

Don't we do this to a certain extent today? Look at sites like Ancestry.com, for example. Hundreds of thousands of people subscribe to that service and other geneology sites like it because they want to know where they come from. Part of who we are as human beings, let alone as members of one family or another, resides in that essential desire to know our origins, whether it's lily-white or checkered as a chess board.

That being said, there IS a fine line between knowing your origins and being obsessed with them, and very often in HP we're presented with family lines (Malfoys and Blacks being two examples) where the 'purity' of the bloodline has become an end unto itself. It isn't about where they come from or who they should be proud of having in their history any more; it's become a way of elevating themselves above other wizards.

When you reach that level of genetic prejudice, as it were, you can fit any other kind of prejudice in. It goes from 'not as good as we are' to 'not our kind, dear' to 'are they really anything like us at all?'

As long as the hypothetical family or families in question kept a sense of balance about them, I wouldn't mind at all. Heck, I'm proud of being able to say my ancestors came from Ireland. But I'm not going to suddenly begin believving that the Irish are the only worthwhile human beings in the world and every other nationality is somehow less human. THAT's where the sticking point lies.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by Barbara_O

That being said, there IS a fine line between knowing your origins and being obsessed with them, and very often in HP we're presented with family lines (Malfoys and Blacks being two examples) where the 'purity' of the bloodline has become an end unto itself. It isn't about where they come from or who they should be proud of having in their history any more; it's become a way of elevating themselves above other wizards.

According to JKR's Pottermore info on the Malfoy Family, they are not as obsessed with blood purity as they claim (publicly) to be. They intermarry often with Halfbloods to avoid becoming inbred. So their claim of being Pureblood is largely PR.

As an old Norman aristocratic family, their real interest is - and always has been - belonging to the aristocracy. Before the Statute of Secrecy, that largely meant the Muggle aristocracy. Afterwards, it meant the self-proclaimed Wizarding aristocracy - i.e., the Purebloods.

So while the point about the Malfoys elevating themselves above others is accurate, it turns out that they have different underlying motives than other Pureblood partisans. They don't believe so much in their blood purity as in their right to be aristocrats. And that is what they are protecting. If the world shifted, and they needed once again to make alliances and marriages with Muggles and Muggleborns in order to protect their social status, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

So it seems that even when Purebloods marry one another (Cedrella and Septimus) they can still be disowned, meaning for some families it isn't even enough to be pureblood but the right KIND of pureblood.

I would say that for those who insist on their children marrying into pureblood families, it always includes the clause "the right kind of pureblood". Those who would disown a child for a relationship with a Muggleborn would also disown a child for a relationship with a "blood traitor".

Originally Posted by Divvie

So, as long as someone considers bloodline a relevant criteria for a choice in a spouse and chooses accordingly, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's his/her prerogative. Just as it would be to choose someone without putting any emphasis on bloodline.

Oh, that's their preogative to be narrow-minded, I agree. But to disown a child who chooses to marry someone who isn't pureblood? It goes to show where priorities lie with the pureblood fanatics.

Personally, I see the blood purity issue more of a cultural than a "genetic" issue, as it indicates a certain preference for an established culture and tradition imo. Like irl there are people who love to encounter and live among cultures and others who find it alien, it would be like that in the wizarding world. Like they say, it takes all sorts ...

But when it comes to disowning children because they have a relationship with a good person, just because they're "not the right kind"? That's not preferring established tradition - that's arrogance and bigotry. That's not respecting established tradition - that's jingoistic arrogance, placing one's own way as superior.

Originally Posted by Barbara_O

That being said, there IS a fine line between knowing your origins and being obsessed with them, and very often in HP we're presented with family lines (Malfoys and Blacks being two examples) where the 'purity' of the bloodline has become an end unto itself. It isn't about where they come from or who they should be proud of having in their history any more; it's become a way of elevating themselves above other wizards.

That's how I see it - there's a difference between knowing about your family tree and deluding yourself that it makes you superior. There's a difference between being proud of your ancestry and believing that others have inferior ancestry. There's a difference between respecting where you come from and believing that it gives you the right to murder and oppress those you think have "inferior" ancestry.

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

According to JKR's Pottermore info on the Malfoy Family, they are not as obsessed with blood purity as they claim (publicly) to be. They intermarry often with Halfbloods to avoid becoming inbred. So their claim of being Pureblood is largely PR.

But it's PR they believe in. Draco did not come to Hogwarts pretending to look down his nose at people like Hermione. He truly believed in the delusion that his blood made him superior. He wasn't playing an Oscar-winning role as a little bigot for all those years.
The Malfoy opposition to Muggles and Muggleborns is genuine, according to Pottermore - it speaks of "unfeigned contempt" for Muggles who could not make them wealthier. Typical bigots, making exceptions where it suits them to do so. It doesn't mean they're not bigots, it means their bank balance and delusions of grandeur are more important than their prejudices.

The Malfoys know all about PR - they pretend to be civilised members of society in public, while murdering and destroying lives in secret. Wonder how they geared that one up after DH, when they were exposed for what they were.

As an old Norman aristocratic family, their real interest is - and always has been - belonging to the aristocracy. Before the Statute of Secrecy, that largely meant the Muggle aristocracy. Afterwards, it meant the self-proclaimed Wizarding aristocracy - i.e., the Purebloods.

The self-proclaimed wizarding aristocracy? The only purebloods who claimed themselves to be "nobility" were the fanatical bigots like the Blacks and Malfoys. The Potters and Weasleys did not claim themselves to be nobility. Nor did the Longbottoms, the Macmillans, Crouch Sr.

What does being pureblood have to do with oppressing and trying to harm Muggles and Muggleborns? How does that help their delusions of being aristocracy? One can be pureblood without being a rabid bigot as the Malfoys were.

So while the point about the Malfoys elevating themselves above others is accurate, it turns out that they have different underlying motives than other Pureblood partisans. They don't believe so much in their blood purity as in their right to be aristocrats. And that is what they are protecting. If the world shifted, and they needed once again to make alliances and marriages with Muggles and Muggleborns in order to protect their social status, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

I don't believe that Draco and Lucius were only pretending to support blood supremacy. I think that even when the Malfoy family associated with Muggles, they only tolerated the wealthy and influential Muggles who could benefit them. Pottermore states as much. When they no longer had a reason or need to tolerate even wealthy Muggles, they let their bigotry flourish.

[Jenna_Keatley]

I don't think that being a pureblood family is inherently a bad thing, as long as the family has remained pureblood only because every time a marriage took place, it was between two people who were genuinely in love. I don't believe that parents should be able to interfere with their children's love lives based on something as petty as pedigree.

I've seen this sort if descrimination in the muggle world. One of my oldest friends has never been in a relationship because she's only allowed to date other Japanese descendants. Never mind that she's 24 and a 4th generation Canadian! Similarly, my sister's close friend was going to be shipped off to Romania on her 19th birthday to find a husband if she couldn't find a Romanian boy here. Thankfully she did.

[FurryDice]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Jenna_Keatley

I don't think that being a pureblood family is inherently a bad thing, as long as the family has remained pureblood only because every time a marriage took place, it was between two people who were genuinely in love. I don't believe that parents should be able to interfere with their children's love lives based on something as petty as pedigree.

Totally agree. I don't think anyone is going to suggest that being a pureblood family is in and of itself bad. However, I think it becomes a bad thing when it gets to the level of looking down on those who are not pureblood, or not the "right kind of pureblood" and putting pureblood status above one's children and their happiness.

[ccollinsmith]

Just to be clear... I was not defending the Malfoys. I personally thought that the Pottermore content offered an interesting insight into the Malfoys - one that makes them actually look WORSE than the view provided by the books.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

The self-proclaimed wizarding aristocracy? The only purebloods who claimed themselves to be "nobility" were the fanatical bigots like the Blacks and Malfoys. The Potters and Weasleys did not claim themselves to be nobility. Nor did the Longbottoms, the Macmillans, Crouch Sr.

I really don't think we need to argue about this. I should have phrased it as "the only portion of Wizarding society that believes itself to be aristocratic - i.e., the Pureblood ideologues who believe in the supremacy of purity of blood." However, it was late, and I was on my iPad, and I had a million other things to do. So I really think we are on the same page regarding the diversity of Purebloods.

My point was that the Malfoys glommed on to Pureblood ideology when it suited them to do so because the Pureblood ideologues were the only element of Wizarding society that proclaimed itself to be aristocratic. The Malfoys adopted Pureblood ideology, in other words, in order to preserve their aristocratic claims after the Statute of Secrecy made it more difficult for them to climb the Muggle aristocracy.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

But it's PR they believe in. Draco did not come to Hogwarts pretending to look down his nose at people like Hermione. He truly believed in the delusion that his blood made him superior. He wasn't playing an Oscar-winning role as a little bigot for all those years.

I think we are talking about two different things here. I'm discussing whether the Malfoys are truly "Pureblood" or not. I believe that you are discussing whether or not they are bigots. Of course I think they are bigots - whether they are trying to climb high in the world of the Muggle aristocracy (pre-Statute) or whether they are claiming a "natural Wizarding aristocracy" by nature of being "Pureblood" (post-Statute). Part of the point I was attempting to make was that Malfoy bigotry transcends the politics of the day.

The Malfoys use politics to their own personal advantage. They are not averse to dealing with (or even marrying) Muggles when it suits their interests. Post-Statute, it did not suit their interests to marry Muggles, though it did apparently suit their interests to have business dealings with Muggles (something that I'm sure they don't want their associates in the Wizarding World to know about).

Regarding the PR, though… the Malfoys currently present a "Pureblood" face to the world, even though (post-Statute) they marry Halfbloods at need. The "Pureblood" face is the PR I was referring to. As the Pottermore content indicates, however, they "eschew" the practice of marrying only Purebloods and actually do marry Halfbloods in the strategic effort to avoid becoming inbred. "Eschew" is a strong word. It indicates that they are highly conscious of the genetic pitfalls involved in marrying only Purebloods. In other words, they are not nearly as fanatical about maintaining the purity of their own Wizarding bloodline as they pretend to be. I'm sure that privately the Malfoys are well aware of the significant number of Halfbloods stabilizing their family tree.

So no, I don't think they believe their own Pureblood PR - i.e., the PR that they themselves are descended from a line consisting of 100% pure Wizarding blood. But do they believe in Pureblood supremacy? I'm sure they do - for at least however long it suits Malfoy interests to believe in it.

At bottom, the Malfoys are old Norman aristocrats who believe in all the rights and privileges afforded to the aristocracy and who believe that those who are not in their social class are beneath their contempt - whether they (the Malfoys) are operating in the Muggle or the Wizarding world. That particular manifestation of the aristocratic worldview is, in itself, a form of bigotry.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

The Malfoy opposition to Muggles and Muggleborns is genuine, according to Pottermore - it speaks of "unfeigned contempt" for Muggles who could not make them wealthier. Typical bigots, making exceptions where it suits them to do so. It doesn't mean they're not bigots, it means their bank balance and delusions of grandeur are more important than their prejudices.

I never said they were not bigots. However, if it suited Malfoy aristocratic interests tomorrow to marry a Muggle or a Muggleborn, I think that the Pottermore material demonstrates pretty clearly that they would do it in a second.

[Divvie]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

: However, if it suited Malfoy aristocratic interests tomorrow to marry a Muggle or a Muggleborn, I think that the Pottermore material demonstrates pretty clearly that they would do it in a second.

I believe they would, as well. Their "Malfoys First" proponents at all costs, really. One might criticise this as selfish but it does reflect a family loyalty not that rare in aristocratic families. Bloodlines would be secondary for them imo.

[leah49]

It appeared from the info on Pottermore that purebloods really do marry non-purebloods because of inbreeding and all that junk and yes, it's been a few weeks since I've read the info, but I don't think it specifically said the Malfoys do this, although I'm sure in their line it's happened.

Yes, I think they're all about image. In a sense, they're the wizarding version of the Dursleys, except they have money. The Dursleys care about how they're presented to the outside world. The Malfoys care about their reputation. Perfect purebloods in their minds.

As I see it, there are two types of Purebloods. We have those like the Malfoys and the Blacks where the image is that pureblood is the only way to go and everyone else stinks. They're the stuck up kind with their noses in the air, the ones who actually use the term "Mudblood."

The other type is the Weasleys. They don't care about blood status. They befriend who they want to befriend no matter if he's got Muggle parents or Muggle grandparents or whatnot. They don't blast Muggle lovers and half-blood lovers off their wall. They're not embarrassed by family members who turn out to be Squibs or marry a non-pureblood. They're pureblood, but it's not that big of a deal to them.

I reckon we've seen more of the latter than we know. For the first type they let you know they're pureblood. It's written all over who they are. With the second type since blood status isn't important it's not as easy to tell. Your blood status isn't written on your skin. You can't tell just by looking at someone. If you didn't know who Ron, Harry, and Hermione were you wouldn't be able to tell which is the pureblood, half-blood, or Muggle-born.

The question SlyEd asked:

Originally Posted by SlyEd

My question is : What would you think of these families who try to keep their pure blood but not in a violent way. Just simply to preserve their tradition and heritage witch goes centuries back?
Would you see it as a bad thing?

Pottermore has pretty much said that pureblood families are really just about image. Look in the line and you'll find at least one Muggleborn or half-blood. There is no pure pureblood. To call yourself a pureblood you only have to go back to your grandparents. Harry's a half-blood, but his children, I do believe, will be able to call themselves pureblood. Their grandparents are all magical. Going on down the line they could say the Potter family is pureblood and be all like the Malfoys and the Blacks. There is no true pureblood family. The only way they "keep" their pureblood is by lying. They hide the non-purebloods in the family. Pretend they don't exist. Keep up the image. It's not violent, but it's not truthful.