Why was Lily killed? and Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily?

[LewsTherin]

Ok here's theory about what happened the night Voldemort was first defeated by Harry. It consists of two parts, one based on what we know, and the other going into the theoretical fantastic.

Here's the factual part.
We know that Voldy went to the Potters to kill Harry and James. We also know that he did not need to kill Lily but did so because she resisted him. She then sacrificed herself and Voldemort's powers were broken when his AK curse failed. Run of the mill stuff.

But here's a suggestion. We've always assumed that what happened was that Lily's sacrifice created a counter charm that simply acted as a shield and bounced the AK back at Voldemort, not involving Harry at all. Here's where my theory starts going crazy. What if, this was in fact, not the case? What if, it didn't bounce the curse back, but rather absorbed it, using Harry's own power? Let me explain.

We know Harry is very powerful, and it is my opinion that he's the most powerful wizard in terms of sheer magical power that has ever lived. He outstrips Voldemort by a comfortable margin, and Dumbledore as well. So, maybe Lily knew this. Maybe she knew that she, in her own power, could not stop an AK curse no matter what the power of the counter charm, but she knew about Harry's power, knew that it was even greater than Voldemort's. She also probably knew that Voldy would come for them, and thus started to prepare long before he came.

Here's where the theory goes into the theoretical fantastic. Thus, she invented a spell, counter charm, whatever, that would use Harry's own power, combine it with hers, and create, not a shield, but a type of syphon (vacuum cleaner as an analogy). She created this spell to not only protect Harry, but to kill Voldemort as well. Here's what it would do. As soon as the AK curse touched Harry, Lily's counter charm, using Harry's magical power, would absorb it rendering it harmless, but it wouldn't stop there. The absorbed curse would create a link betweenn V and Harry, and through the link, the counter charm would begin to suck the magic out of Voldemort (This would explain the abilities Harry recieved) and transfer it to Harry. This would only be a transfer of magical power, not soul/personality. It would suck all the magic out of V, taking his immortality (which is based in magic) with it, and once done, would consume his physical body in the shock.

But this only partially worked. Lily overestimated Voldy, thinking he was stronger than he actually was. His body died from the shock of the spell long before it was meant to, and because his body died, the transfer could not be completed and the process was stopped. Voldy had enough magic left (the greater part) in him to escape with his immortality intact. And because the transfer was stopped and not completed, the link between them remained. Harry gained what power had been sucked out of V (parseltoungue, other abilities), but the process did not finish. Of course, the spell can never be completed, unless another, equally powerful and identical counter charm were performed.

The only thing that lends credence to my theory, is the fact that the transfer of abilities to Harry was not intentional. I attribute this to Lily's counter charm that sucked those abilites out of Voldemort. It also explains why there's a 'link' between Voldy and Harry.

But anyway, that's my haribrained theory on what may have happened. It's probably wrong but I had fun thinking about it.

Any thoughts on my theory and your own on what happened that night?

[Anne]

Very interesting theory, Lews. I salute your creativity. I think the final story will end up being similar to yours.

Here is what I firmly believe about what happened that night. Voldemort had no interest in James or Lily. He was only after Harry. Also, remember when Mr. Ollivander said that James' wand was excellent for transfiguration, and Lily's was excellent for charms? Well, based on that, I believe that it was definitely a charm Lily used that saved Harry. Now, remember that Voldy said Lily used an ancient magic. This may or may not be the charm I was talking about. I am inclined to believe that he was not talking about the charm. Rather, he was talking about the love/bravery/self-sacrifice that saved Harry.

Sorry if I tended to ramble a bit there. :o

[Kneazle]

Your theory, it's quite fantastical. Wow. Excellent. :yup:

What do I think happened on that night? Well, just what we see in the books. I don't think that Lily had any real idea of what she was doing when she died for Harry. She just knew she'd protect him 'til the death. If she had some plan or if she knew that her sacrifice would end up doing, then I don't think she'd sound so very desperate when Voldemort attacked. She was screaming, pleading with Voldemort. "I'll do anything" "take me". . . I think that if she had the slightest idea about what would happen she would sound more resigned-- we know enough of her bravery to know she wouldn't go frantic.

Of course, that's based on my sketchy take of Lily's character. It could be anything-- I just like the simple turn of events that's been presented so far. Dumbledore and Voldemort both accept it like that-- Voldemort even explains it and admits his mistake in overlooking it.

[TheShadow]

We know how powerful Voldermort is so I don't see how a simple charm could stop AK. So it must have something to do with Harry. The charm obviosly helped Harry but wouldn't have stopped it on it's own. I think Lews theory is excellent and could well be true.

[TheSortingHat]

I had a theory about this a few days ago on MNet, I might bring parts of it over. I like that thinking, Lews, but there are two things I don't like about it.

First - Voldemort still has the ability to speak to snakes. He did it in GoF. So, either Harry is independently a Parselmouth, or the power didn't get sucked out of Voldemort, merely copied from him.

Second - I can't see Lily, a confirmed Gryffindor, having the desire to rob powers from Voldemort and kill him at the same time. That seems like a very opportunistic thing to do, not something a Gryffindor would do. Wouldn't it be enough to kill him, especially if she knew that Harry was already the most powerful wizard in the world?

Overall, still a very good theory.

TheSortingHaat

[harryton]

hmm very good theory. I think that Voldemort KNEW about harry's power and thats why he wanted to kill him.

[ReLupin]

Very well thought out theory!

IMHO, it was actually as simple as it appears on the surface. Lily died to save Harry's life and her sacrifice protected him. I don't think she expected Voldemort to show up that night because I think she trusted Peter as the Secret Keeper. (What kind of person would she be if she knew that Peter would frame Sirius, but she allowed it to happen.) After Voldemort showed up, she didn't have time to do anything except beg Voldemort to spare Harry's life.

In CoS, Tom Riddle asked Harry how he had survived. I don't have the book with me, but when Harry explained that his mother died to save him, Tom Riddle said something about Yes, your mother died to save you. That is very ancient magic and I should have thought of it. Tom seemed to understand immediately exactly what had happened so I don't think it was a newly invented complex charm. I think that the act of dying to save him is magic in and of itself, no additional charm was necessary.

One question I have is whether or not it is only a mother's love that works to protect someone. If Sirius or Ginny died to protect Harry, would it work the same as it did when Lily died?

[Peter]

I find the theory just as good as any other theories, though what make me belive more in it than other theories?
Its your "link" that intrest me, it suits good for the "plot."
Though, Killing a person greater will make it survive, killing it worse will make it die?
Thats the only logical error I could find. Though its seems allright, thant its a "torture" prosess?

[TheShadow]

I can't think of good theorys. I'm rubbish at them so I just go along with other peoples.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ReLupin
In CoS, Tom Riddle asked Harry how he had survived. I don't have the book with me, but when Harry explained that his mother died to save him, Tom Riddle said something about Yes, your mother died to save you. That is very ancient magic and I should have thought of it. Tom seemed to understand immediately exactly what had happened so I don't think it was a newly invented complex charm. I think that the act of dying to save him is magic in and of itself, no additional charm was necessary.

Hm, but if it weren't that complex wouldn't Voldemort have thought about it beforehand? Of course if it was ancient magic it probably never even occurred to him that Lily would try it.

As for whether it had to be a mother's love or not I believe so. I think Dumbledore said a mother's love was a strong protection or something along those lines...

Lews, I like your theory and I agree with some of it. I do believe that Harry's own powers came into play. I doubt a charm/ancient spell could have stopped the AK on its own. I think that even though Harry was only a baby his power was activiated out of neccessity.

I was about to mention how Voldemort could still talk to snakes, but TSH beat me to it. I don't think Harry has sucked any powers from Voldemort, but perhaps he already had them? The fact that this boy would have that power as well probably didn't sit to well with Voldemort.

The link is a sure thing that we all know about. I just hope it is enough to help Harry in the future.

[Kneazle]

Originally posted by Sarah
Hm, but if it weren't that complex wouldn't Voldemort have thought about it beforehand? Of course if it was ancient magic it probably never even occurred to him that Lily would try it.

Not necessarily. He keeps repeating how foolish his mistake was in GoF:

"His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not forseen. . . . I could not touch the boy."

"His mother left apon him the traces of her sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . . . but no matter. I can touch him now."

"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself."

[ReLupin]

Excellent point, Kneazle. Sometimes even powerful dark wizards simply forget things. Voldemort didn't expect Lily to be willing to die to save Harry since he never had a parent that would have loved him that much. At the moment that he decided to kill her, he simply didn't think about the effect of his action.

[Emma]

I agree with all of you. All I know is that I need book 5 NOW. All the theries are wonderful. The more I read the More I wonder about it tho.

[Alizeseeker27]

Wow Lews and people think that I have an overactive imagination! I couldn't have come up with a theory like that if I had eternity to think about it! I am very impressed!!! Even though I don't completly agree with the theory I think that it is totally possible. I also think that it's possbile that Voldemort didn't think Lily would sacrifice herself because he knew he before that night. No, not in a romantic way but in a sense that maybe she was a spy for dumbledore like snape :??: Or maybe I am just hooked on the thought of lily knowing voldemort. Who knows?

[pasalita]

Yet again, another thread I can't believe I haven't posted in!

LewsTherin, I love this theory! It's not hairbrained at all because it attributes Harry with, as you've shared with me before, a magic all his own; a new form of magic that can revitalize the wizarding world. The One that will introduce a new era into the wizarding world, that will pre-empt new discoveries...

I dig it.

[Tinkie]

Very interesting theory Lews, but as other people have done, i will have to disagree with some of your points. what i think is that what happened with Lily was quite accidental. she looked too terrified and she pleaded with voldemort not to touch harry. and maybe she knew that harry was really powerful, but she wouldnt risk it would she. andd as Kneazle pointed out, voldemort himself admitted his mistake more than once.
but i think that it was not only her sacrifice that made the curs rebounce, but also the fact that Harry was powerful. Now about the transferral of powers, well i dont know

[pasalita]

Originally posted by LewsTherin
As for Lily being too surprised. Consider this. AK is supposed to be final and unstoppable, and the proof is very clear in that only Harry ever survived it. Now, I ask you, could he have survived without the counter-charm being previously prepared or at the very least, thought about? I doubt it. I think Lily knew Voldemort would come, and had prepared for it. Her apparent panic was simply shock in that her husband had just died, and a desperate hope that her counter-charm would going to work. Or she could have been buying time and distracting Voldy from what was really going on - he counter-charm.

Yet, again, my thoughts exactly. Of course, this is just me, but I feel that to doubt the idea of the existence of the counter charm (rather than a counter curse) is to doubt Lily's abilities as a witch and as a key player in the witches/wizards trying to put an end to Voldemort's terror. As LewsTherin said, her panic could have been a desperate hope the the counter-charm would work. After all, how else could she be sure but at that moment? She couldn't exactly practice the charm beforehand, considering the probable requirements for the charm to work successfully and thoroughly did not come to pass until that very night.

Also, to add to LewsTherin's support of the idea of the counter charm, Tom Riddle in CoS actually qualifies the notion that Lily DID use a counter charm. Thus, the wording is not so much of an oddity when, in GoF, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) claims that no counter curse exists to counter the AK. BUT, as used by Lily, and qualified by Voldemort himself (a la Tom Riddle), a counter charm could block the AK.

Why Crouch Jr. wouldn't mention that in their lesson, and why isn't it common knowledge? Because, if to follow LewsTherin's theory, it was only used successfully by the person who honed and discovered it: Lily Potter. And, well, she isn't quite able to record her findings at the moment, can she?

[TheSortingHat]

Very well stated, Pasalita. I agree with you, and again would like to expound on your statements.

Originally posted by Pasalita
Also, to add to LewsTherin's support of the idea of the counter charm, Tom Riddle in CoS actually qualifies the notion that Lily DID use a counter charm. Thus, the wording is not so much of an oddity when, in GoF, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) claims that no counter curse exists to counter the AK. BUT, as used by Lily, and qualified by Voldemort himself (a la Tom Riddle), a counter charm could block the AK.

I would think that Crouch, a Death Eater, would purposely neglect to mention the existence of a counter-charm, should he have known of it. This would not only fufill his duty as a teacher to increase the respect of a student of the power of the curse, it would also make them fear the curse - and its users - more. Thus, he was already helping the Dark Lord to rule by fear over citizens of Britain.

Pasalita again
Why Crouch Jr. wouldn't mention that in their lesson, and why isn't it common knowledge? Because, if to follow LewsTherin's theory, it was only used successfully by the person who honed and discovered it: Lily Potter. And, well, she isn't quite able to record her findings at the moment, can she?

Also, she wouldn't have had anyone to practice it on...

TheSortingHat

[Sinistra]

That's one amazing theory, Lews.

Lily's sacrifice was based in love, the most powerful magic of all. Nothing more should have been needed. That's the ancient magic, and Voldemort isn't a guy who thinks about love a lot. Not at all, so love-based charms would not be things he would remember first. I wonder if he ever killed another mother and child? It is certainly probable. But Harry is the ONLY wizard to have survived. Ever. So it does stand to reason that something extra "helped" Harry along in surviving Voldy's curse. I think it was a combination of Lily's sacrifice, something she did additionally (other than dying to save her son--i.e. some charm) and possibly Harry's natural abilities.

Lily may have done a few charms herself over the days and weeks they knew Voldy was after them. It would be sensible to have additional protections, apart from the Fidelius charm.

But I do think the link was forged between Harry and Voldy by the curse that failed. That's big magic, and it just seems sensible.

[LewsTherin]

OK, I think I've finally got some concrete proof to support my theory.

I was watching the DVD yesterday and it brought something to my attention - at the end of PS, Dumbledore tells Harry why Voldy couldn't touch him. This is of course, because of Lily's sacrifice and the love that was tranfered into his skin. Now, here's the thing. There were no witnesses to the murder of the Potters, so how did DD know this?

So, the way I see it, we have three scenarios:

1. DD knew about the counter-charm Lily was preparing to use and knew that Voldy would attack them. Following this line of logic, we can assume the Potters also knew. This is how he knew that the counter-charm involved love, since he probably helped Lily to come up with it.

2. There was a witness, and this witness told DD what happened.

3. Because Harry survived, people have just assumed that his mother sacrificed herself for her son. DD heard this, put two and two together, and arrived at the conclusion that her love must have saved him.

Number 2 we can discount immediately. We know the AK curse that Voldy used destoryed the house, thus, any witness would not have survived.

Number 3 involves too much guesswork, and DD could not have been certain that it was Lily's love that saved Harry.

Hence, the only option that works is no 1. There is proof for this, as it mentions somewhere in the books that the Potters knew Voldy was trying to get at them, and hence, DD knew as well. Thus, this proves that the Potters knew Voldy was coming and had prepared for it. In other words, that night, neither James nor Lily were surprised, in fact, they knew exactly what was happening - and Voldemort had walked into a trap.
Their apparent distress was just an act, and the counter-charm Lily used was prepared. Her love, provided the power for it to work.

If you disagree, think about this. We know from Moody/Crouch Jr that the AK curse is unstoppable and kills anything. Yet Harry survived. Now here's the thing, the most common theory is that Lily in her distress and panic, somehow produced a magic that saved Harry, and the fact that it worked is attributed to love. It's a very noble idea, but it can't work. Here's why. It would have had to be a random event - that she somehow produced the correct magic to not only save Harry and block the AK, but to make it rebound as well. That's based heavily on chance, especially since she was (apparently) panicked. But, a central theme to Harry Potter is that our decisions determine where we end up - a random chance undermines that. Thus, to say that she was lucky, contradicts a central theme. JKR would not do that.

And one more thing. If you knew someone was after the life of your child, would you not prepare to defend him/her? Would you not do everything humanly possible to protect that child? I put my theory to my mother and she said just that - because Lily loved Harry, she prepared a charm she was shure would save him, loving him enough to go through with it even though she knew she was going to die. That is real love, and that is what powered it.

So, in conclusion, what the above proves is that Lily's sacrifice was prepared, and was meant to do what it did - save Harry and rebound and hurt/kill Voldemort. It was not chance, and it was not simply an act of a mother's love - it was planned, with more love and care than any random act.