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Can Snape really be trusted?



 
 
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  #201  
Old July 5th, 2004, 7:13 pm
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I trust Snape. He's a smart man.


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  #202  
Old July 5th, 2004, 8:04 pm
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It looks like trust. But is it? Dumbledore has Snape as a teacher at Hogwarts where he can keep an eye on him.


  #203  
Old July 5th, 2004, 9:45 pm
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Serpentine, you certainly make well thought out arguments! I agree with a lot of what you have said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
Secondly, which part of the overheard prophecy would explain Dumbledore's trust in Snape, or give Snape a reason to not only turn sides but even turn spy on his former master?
I find it really hard to put into words everything I think!! What I mean here is that Dumbledore, on finding out it was Snape who overheard the prophecy, goes to Snape and offers him the job - not the other way around! This way he can keep an eye on Snape and attempt to get Snape to come over to his side. Or maybe he holds something else over Snape!? It is of course possible that it wasn't him who overheard the prophecy.


Quote:
Hmm... I have a hard time seeing Voldemort trust his DE minions for nothing but their sheer existence and the fancy tattoo on their arm.

Too true! I'm not good at thinking the way an evil wizard does!! Logic indeed suggests that he is getting something out of Snape.


Quote:
A guy who hasn't given you any reason so far to distrust him - else you would have killed him long ago -, and his strategic position is a brilliant one: as a Hogwarts teacher he's close to both Harry and Dumbledore.

Yep - this supporter is resourceful!! Of course, was Snape a teacher before the prophecy? Before Voldermorts downfall? In which case what was his purpose back then?? Was it simply to spy on Dumbledore?

Quote:
If you were Voldemort, would you just let this huge asset lie around unused, without expecting anything of him?

I certainly wouldn't leave him unused. The questions raised about Snape's presence at the Graveyard in GoF is vital here I think. What did Voldermort really think if he didn't show up? How did Snape have to prove himself? And at the end of the day - does Voldermort suspect his disloyalty and is actually using him, i.e. feeding Snape false information?!!!


Quote:
Snape is walking a fine line, and I'm more than curious how he will go about Voldemort's tasks without betraying his true loyalties to Dumbledore.
This is my biggest curiousity killed the cat moment!! In fact, the reason I want to read the next book is to find out all of this and stop guessing!!


  #204  
Old July 6th, 2004, 10:46 am
Starlight  Female.gif Starlight is offline
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I think he can be trusted. The only thing that's feeding our doubts about his loyalties is Harry and Ron's distrust, and they're biased and don't know the full story, whereas Dumbledore probably does know the full story and has, apparently, decided that Snape can be trusted.

The only thing that bothers me, though, is that if we're being made to think that he can be trusted, what if that means there will be a twist which says "HA! Fooled you! Snape's evil after all!" Ahh, I don't know whether to trust him or not...

Regarding Snape overhearing the Prophecy - I'd always assumed that it was Wormtail who had overheard it. Sirius said in PoA that Wormtail had been passing infomation to Voldemort for up to a year before the Potters were killed, which fits in with when the Prophecy was made - what better way to gain Voldemort's trust than bring him infomation about his downfall?

Re Snape the Spy - I am 90% confident that whatever he's doing for the Order, it's not as simple as merely spying on Voldemort and the DEs. Let's look at the evidence - in the Karkaroff trial, Karkaroff is actually told that that Snape is a spy. How many people could've he told that Snape was a spy when he was released from Azkaban? A lot. Then, when he talks to him at Hogwarts, Snape tells him that he's staying there. OK, if he is spying for Voldemort, then this is nothing to worry about, Voldemort already knows this, but if he isn't, and Karkaroff is caught be the DEs, and tortured into revealing that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, and not only that, be the fact that he was actually told that Snape has been a spy, what are the chances of Voldemort not knowing? And would he really give Snape a second chance? Erm, I don't think so.

OK, now two things I noticed - one, at the end of GoF, Harry actually wonders if the job Snape was doing was going back to being a spy for DD. Come on, if it was obvious enough to be guessed that early, then it's likely that it's not as simple as that! That would've been like Harry thinking to himself half-way through P/SS "What if Snape isn't trying to steal the stone? What if it's the last person I'd suspect?"

And two - during the occlumency lesson, when Harry accuses Snape of spying on Voldemort, Snape seems to think for a moment, before saying "yes, I am" with a satisfied look on his face. Why would Snape be glad that Harry knows that he's spying on Voldemort? Why would Snape be glad that Harry, who he knows has a direct link to Voldemort, knows that he's spying on Voldemort? When the lessons first start and he's explaining (almost) everything to Harry, he seemed to be thinking very carefully about what he was saying, as though to make sure he didn't give away anything important, and we know from the start of OotP that the Order were told not to tell Harry "more than he needs to know", because of this link with Voldemort.

So either Snape was so proud that he accidently let slip delicate infomation, and it will be his downfall, or he actually wants Voldemort to know that he's spying on him. If that's the case, it's could be because he's mocking Voldemort, letting him know that there's a leak which he can't find (probably Lucius Malfoy?) or Snape is simply a decoy, distracting Voldemort from discovering whoever the real spy is.

Oh, and I agree with young@heart, this is also why I want to read book 6, I wanna know NOW! LOL


  #205  
Old July 7th, 2004, 8:14 pm
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I think that we can trust Snape but that still doesn't make him a good person. I mean, brocolli's supposedly good for you but that doesn't mean I'd go around snacking on it.

Quote:
So either Snape was so proud that he accidently let slip delicate infomation, and it will be his downfall, or he actually wants Voldemort to know that he's spying on him. If that's the case, it's could be because he's mocking Voldemort, letting him know that there's a leak which he can't find (probably Lucius Malfoy?) or Snape is simply a decoy, distracting Voldemort from discovering whoever the real spy is.
Well either you're right or in my opinion who doesn't know already that Snape is and has been a spy so it's not like Snape can dig his grave any deeper than it already is.

Quote:
Re Snape the Spy - I am 90% confident that whatever he's doing for the Order, it's not as simple as merely spying on Voldemort and the DEs.
I agree because whatever he's doing I think involves what Voldemort is planning.


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  #206  
Old July 8th, 2004, 9:03 am
hermionefan20  Female.gif hermionefan20 is offline
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I don't think Snape can be trusted... I would like to think he has come to the good side, for his own sake, but there are too many things that lead us to believe he is still supporting "The Dark Lord" (as he is called by his followers, and Snape...) I also wonder if Snape woouldn't help Voldemort hurt Harry, since he still seems to hold James' wrongdoings against Harry.


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  #207  
Old July 8th, 2004, 10:20 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermionefan20
I don't think Snape can be trusted... I would like to think he has come to the good side, for his own sake, but there are too many things that lead us to believe he is still supporting "The Dark Lord" (as he is called by his followers, and Snape...) I also wonder if Snape woouldn't help Voldemort hurt Harry, since he still seems to hold James' wrongdoings against Harry.
Although Dumbledore was "foolish" enough to think Snape could teach Harry Occlumency, I don't think Snape still supports Dumbledore. He still might be calling Voldemort the "Dark Lord" out of habit- what do we know? Besides, I think Dumbledore's skills in Legilimency are greater than Snape's ability to close his mind.


  #208  
Old July 8th, 2004, 10:22 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopsus
Although Dumbledore was "foolish" enough to think Snape could teach Harry Occlumency, I don't think Snape still supports Dumbledore. He still might be calling Voldemort the "Dark Lord" out of habit- what do we know? Besides, I think Dumbledore's skills in Legilimency are greater than Snape's ability to close his mind.
not if Snape takes out his memories before interviews with Dumbledore.


  #209  
Old July 8th, 2004, 10:32 am
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Well, we'll find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape in book 6 (according to Mugglenet)


  #210  
Old July 9th, 2004, 8:59 am
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If Snape were to stop calling Voldemort the Dark Lord and did that in front of the death eaters it would be rather more dangerous to him than calling him the Dark Lord in front of Harry. I think that it probably started as a habit but he may be deliberately not breaking it so that he does not suddenly give himself away by referring to "you know who" when talking to Lucius Malfoy, for example.

My thoughts on whether Snape can be trusted or not...

Well on the books alone I would say yes. The only thing that makes me wonder is JKR's comment about keeping an eye on him or words to that effect.

But on the books alone I don't think that he has done anything to show that he can't be trusted. With regard to DD not letting him have the DADA job I still think that he will get that job in book seven. Though at first I could not understand how Umbridge could be hired over him I did wonder later if perhaps it is because DADA teachers are ten a penny and Potions teachers are harder to find. If Snape had been given the job in book five no doubt Umbridge would have been there as potions teacher. So rather than having to keep an eye on her in that position, and check Snape is doing okay in his new post, perhaps it was simply easier for DD to keep Snape where he was, where he knows he can do the job, and just keep an eye on one teacher at a time. And when referring to Umbridge I use teacher in the loosest sense of the word.

Time and again through the books Snape is rescuing Harry and his pals from one disaster after another. There is nothing in them that is substantive proof that he cannot be trusted. If there was Hermione would surely have spotted it even if I haven't.

I really hope that JKR does not have him turn out evil in the end although I do wonder if perhaps he will betray the Order in book six but be finally redeemed in book seven or something along those lines.

I also hope that he is not killed off, saving Harry or otherwise...far too much of a cliche (sorry lost my list of foreign characters key strokes).


  #211  
Old July 9th, 2004, 9:03 am
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Well, in which matter of "trust" are we talking about here? Can we trust Snape to be fair to Harry in school, well, no, probably not. Can we trust him to not let his hatred of James make him unduly biased towards Harry? Nope. But I think that Snape is sincere in his rejection of Voldemort, simply because I trust Dumbledore. If even Dumbledore is leaving evil people in the care of Harry, well, then, who can we trust? Besides, Snape would have turned in Harry to LV by now if he truly was still a Death Eater. When it comes down to it, as much as Snape hates Harry, Snape will protect him if it is proactive to the cause of the Order.

Shauna


  #212  
Old July 9th, 2004, 2:25 pm
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Sorry if someone has mentioned this but i don't think Snape is bad because Dumbeldore trust Snape.

But since he part of the OotP i think dumbledore will ask Snape to become an Unregistered Animagi to spy on Voldemort.


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  #213  
Old July 9th, 2004, 7:04 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerb
I think the fact that Snape is a master of Occulemency (sp) means we should question everything about him, and never settle on an answer. Always question.
Constant vigilance I say. One way or the other Snape will be my favorite. He is si delicious character. Though I really hope that 'we' can trust him.


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  #214  
Old July 12th, 2004, 11:52 pm
adrian_jpl  Undisclosed.gif adrian_jpl is offline
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Snape is undecided

Snape is clearly a powerful wizard. He is able to hide who it is his allegiance is to, although I think Dumbledore has the wits to see through him if necessary. Occulomency it seems has allowed him to get away with a great deal. What I don't understand is that fact that Snape clearly acted against Voldemort's intrests in the first book, why would Voldemort accept him as a Death Eater again. This would make Sanpe a rather useless spy.

His dislike for Harry is due to James Potter and perhaps a certain distaste for half-bloods. Look how he treats Hermione, have we ever seen him treat Ron as bad as Harry or Hermione? Afterall he is the head of Slytherin.

He enjoys the dark arts, because I think he enjoys power. Dumbledore won't let him teach the DA class because it might push him toward the "darkside."


I only hope he stays good


  #215  
Old July 13th, 2004, 8:57 pm
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The question "Can Snape really be trusted?" is an oversimplified question. The actual question is really more complex. Here is why.

In "The Philosopher's Stone", we see Prof. Snape apparently opposing Voldemort. However, the book never stated that Prof. Snape was acting against the interests of Voldemort. We do see in the book that Prof. Snape interrogated Prof. Quirrell in the forest; asking him if he had found a way to get past "that beast of Hagrid's". The movie is misleading because it neglects this part of the conversation.

However, when Harry confronts Prof. Quirrell he finds out that Prof. Snape was protecting Harry during the Quidditch match by muttering a counter-curse. Prof. Quirrell states that Prof. Snape hated Harry but never wanted him dead.

These two actions appear to create two conflicting ideologies about Prof. Snape. The first seems to imply that he supports Lord Voldemort. The second seems to imply that he is opposed to Lord Voldemort. However, the second is not necessarily so. This opens up several possible hypotheses which can be made here.

1. Prof. Snape is a double-agent working for both Lord Voldemort and the OOTP, supporting Lord Voldemort. His role may be to provide erroneous information to the OOTP. This role would not conflict with any of Prof. Snape's actions in Book's 1-5.
In Harry and Prof. Quirrell's final encounter, Prof. Quirrel mentions that Prof. Snape hated Harry yet did not want him dead. This may just mean that Prof. Snape was a timid Death Eater who didn't have the stomach to kill a person, let alone a child.

2. Prof. Snape is a spy for the OOTP. The encounter in the forest with Prof. Quirrell was merely a ruse to expose Prof. Quirrell. Lord Voldemort may, or may not, have joined with Prof. Quirrell at this time. It was not until after Prof. Quirrell's failure at Halloween that Lord Voldemort decided to join with him. This situation creates two more possibilities.

2a. Lord Voldemort does not know, or only suspects, that Prof. Snape is opposed to him. Prof. Snape's ruse worked and helped to stop Lord Voldemort's plan to steal the Sorcerer's Stone while maintaing his "alliance" with Lord Voldemort.

2b. Lord Voldemort knows via first- or second-hand knowledge that Prof. Snape is opposed to him. In this case, the question is asked how could Prof. Snape spy for the OOTP? In WW2, the Allied forces had broken the Germans secret Enigma code. They chose not to act on many occassions; for instance, the bombing of London. This was done in an attempt to find out more about Germany's plans which lead to the Allie's eventual victory. Counter-intelligence is a subtle aspect of spying which is not often heard, or talked, about. Feeding disinformation to a known spy has the same effect as that spy being a double-agent.

The actual question should be "Can Snape be reliably trusted?" Two out of three of my hypotheses say Prof. Snape cannot be reliably trusted, although two out of three of my hypothesis suggest that Prof. Snape can be trusted. Semantics makes a big difference here.

There are, of course, many more possibilities which, statistically, could favor Prof. Snape being trustworthy or untrustworthy. These three hypotheses are the ones I find to be most plausible.



Last edited by Kookiemon; July 14th, 2004 at 1:34 am. Reason: Clarity and Grammatical Errors
  #216  
Old July 13th, 2004, 11:45 pm
M00ny  Undisclosed.gif M00ny is offline
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Snape is one of those cases where he can go either way. He could seiously be tricking Dumbledore by closing his mind so Dumbledore can't see through him or maybe he really is a good guy.

The thing is that we don't know exactly why he went the way of the dark side... ya ya i know that he's facinated by the dark arts ok, but i like to research war and i'm a pacafist. There are things that JK still isn't telling us. The images that Harry saw when he saw snape's memories give us a clue as to what snape's home life might have been like and we saw the whole Pensive ordeal so those might have been factors in his decision to join "the dark side" , but we aren't really sure.

I think we need to know more about Snape in order to Judge him trustworthy or not, because we really don't know much about the guy.


  #217  
Old July 14th, 2004, 2:03 am
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Snape is such a tricky character, I never know what to think. My mind constantly wavers between 1. Snape is good, and 2. Snape is evil. He is a skilled Occulmens, so how can either DD or Voldemort know if he is lying? He could be a spy on either side.


  #218  
Old July 14th, 2004, 2:29 am
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I think Snape is trustworthy and is truly on Dumbledore's side. Despite his being a former Death Eater who appears evil in every way (from Harry's point of view), I think he's really changed and will not go back to serving Voldemort. But I agree he is capable of pulling off the role as double agent due to his skills in Occlumency and Legilimency.


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  #219  
Old July 14th, 2004, 4:36 am
edina_monsoon  Female.gif edina_monsoon is offline
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why??

Can anyone direct me to a thread that deals with why Dumbledore trusts Snape? Predictions, I guess, about that self-risk he put himself in. I think it had to be something huge, and I'm sure there's a thread somewhere but I can't find it.
Thanks


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  #220  
Old July 14th, 2004, 9:39 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenog Jones
He is a skilled Occulmens, so how can either DD or Voldemort know if he is lying? He could be a spy on either side.
Well, DD knows that Snape is a skilled Occlumens, but has chosen to trust Snape anyway. So whatever Snape's story is, it must be a pretty good one.


 
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