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Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy?



 
 
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  #261  
Old October 13th, 2004, 3:21 pm
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Hey atherella, that IS a good article... (Glad you recommended it too!)

I actually don't think it really matters whether Snape was in the graveyard, but I think we shouldn't just assume that he couldn't have been--and therefore LV suspects him. I think JKR is setting us up to think that, and has some big surprises to throw our way.

The only way for Snape to still be alive is if LV doesn't suspect him or is using him. If LV doesn't suspect him, then Snape has never given him reason to, meaning, he's still acting as a spy for LV. Which is not to say he can't be acting as a spy for DD too, which we know he is, hence "Double-00 Sevie." I refuse to commit to what side I think Snape is on, because I think it's impossible to tell. He could turn out either way, really, and it could be that he hasn't even decided himself. I AM convinced however, that JKR has at least one more surprise about him for us, if not two or three.


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  #262  
Old October 13th, 2004, 4:31 pm
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Flamel
Not forgotten here. I suspect that LV is so over-confident that he couldn't comprehend how Snape could fool him. I think that Snape is just so good at making himself useful to both sides, neither have really suspected him. After all, how could Snape fool the two greatest Legilimens of all time? Or, both sides suspect him and are using him, in which case-- he's good as dead.
Lord Voldemort is a very arrogant guy, I agree. But don't forget that he also learns from his mistakes- and it was a "double agent" who originally brought him down from his first reign of terror. Pettigrew had no idea selling out the Potters would cause his master's downfall, but you can bet Voldemort hasn't forgotten it! My suspicion is that he's VERY wary of double agents, and probably uses other methods to discover them amongst his ranks.


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  #263  
Old October 13th, 2004, 4:37 pm
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  #264  
Old October 13th, 2004, 4:46 pm
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I think the question is...does Dumbledore know that snape is a spy!? Haha, only playing.... well, i think i am anyway .

Well, assuming snape really is batting for the good guys for certain, then i think Voldemort knows. Remember, he has that gift apparently where he can tell if people are lying (He could tell Peter was lying...not that, i imagine, that would have been hard for anyone to do !). Anyway, i think he does know and if so is saving snape as potential collateral should the battle move more towards the Orders' favour. I mean, how could Voldemort NOT know? The guy is the big bad and if BTVS and Angel have taught us aything it's that the big bads always end up knowing stuff like that!


  #265  
Old October 13th, 2004, 6:40 pm
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McKinnon02, you make your point well. If Snape is tricking LV, he's amazing. but I'll accept it if he's amazing!

Maybe I should modify some of what I've said. I've said that Snape may not have given LV any reason to suspect him. And, judging by his description of how Occlumency works, it isn't too hard for me to accept he's tricking LV. He says that he can basically supress any thought that would cantradict a lie. And from what we've seen of Legilimency, I'm not sure that even the best could just go poking around at his leisure or find a specific supressed memory to analyze. I could be very wrong and underestimating LV, though!

My assertions rest on my assessment that LV knows full well that DD trusts Snape and that Snape is spying for the Order. In this case, Snape doesn't have to hide this fact from LV. He only has to hide his true motives, which even Legilimency may not be able to ascertain. However, this is a very precarious situation, in which Snape has to perfectly balance what information he's revealing to both sides. That to me is the most difficult aspect of all this. However, I think if anyone is up to the job, it's him.

On the other hand, maybe it's not so much that Snape hasn't given LV a reason to suspect him, but that there actually ISN'T a reason for LV to suspect him. Dunh, dunh, dunh...


  #266  
Old October 13th, 2004, 7:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Flamel
Maybe I should modify some of what I've said. I've said that Snape may not have given LV any reason to suspect him. And, judging by his description of how Occlumency works, it isn't too hard for me to accept he's tricking LV. He says that he can basically supress any thought that would cantradict a lie. And from what we've seen of Legilimency, I'm not sure that even the best could just go poking around at his leisure or find a specific supressed memory to analyze. I could be very wrong and underestimating LV, though!

My assertions rest on my assessment that LV knows full well that DD trusts Snape and that Snape is spying for the Order. In this case, Snape doesn't have to hide this fact from LV. He only has to hide his true motives, which even Legilimency may not be able to ascertain. However, this is a very precarious situation, in which Snape has to perfectly balance what information he's revealing to both sides. That to me is the most difficult aspect of all this. However, I think if anyone is up to the job, it's him.

On the other hand, maybe it's not so much that Snape hasn't given LV a reason to suspect him, but that there actually ISN'T a reason for LV to suspect him. Dunh, dunh, dunh...
I like your thinking here. I too have a hard time believing that it would be as simple as Voldemort not knowing Snape's association with the Order. If there is in fact some deception going on here, Snape would have to convince Voldemort that he is a double agent for their side. . . unless he actually is. JKR has warned us not to feel too bad for Snape, and I have a really hard time believing that, by the end, it's going to be as easy as saying that Snape is either a good or a bad guy.

But this whole business of Snape being a kind of go-between, acting on both sides of the conflict in one way or another, is really kind of scary. The Order has to put their complete trust in him, because one wrong move and he could blow everything. He's the figure with the most contact with the Death Eaters and Voldemort. . . and Voldemort's a sticky guy. If Snape is in fact a good guy, and Voldemort does figure out what's going on, he could easily manipulate the information that Snape gets in such a way that it would devastate the Order. It's very disturbing to think that the outcome of this war depends on more than just Harry and the prophecy, but such uncertain, yet important, characters as Snape!


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  #267  
Old October 13th, 2004, 7:36 pm
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credo Buffa
I like your thinking here. I too have a hard time believing that it would be as simple as Voldemort not knowing Snape's association with the Order. If there is in fact some deception going on here, Snape would have to convince Voldemort that he is a double agent for their side. . . unless he actually is. JKR has warned us not to feel too bad for Snape, and I have a really hard time believing that, by the end, it's going to be as easy as saying that Snape is either a good or a bad guy.

But this whole business of Snape being a kind of go-between, acting on both sides of the conflict in one way or another, is really kind of scary. The Order has to put their complete trust in him, because one wrong move and he could blow everything. He's the figure with the most contact with the Death Eaters and Voldemort. . . and Voldemort's a sticky guy. If Snape is in fact a good guy, and Voldemort does figure out what's going on, he could easily manipulate the information that Snape gets in such a way that it would devastate the Order. It's very disturbing to think that the outcome of this war depends on more than just Harry and the prophecy, but such uncertain, yet important, characters as Snape!
Wars are never black and white. They're always several shades of gray. Even if Harry kills Voldemort, do you think the Death Eaters are going to stop committing evil deeds in his name? Or just for the hell of it? They may be damaged for a while, but learning of the death of their leader may spur some-if not most- of them onto even greater evils. The war isn't going to stop the instant LV dies. They aren't just going to pack up their bags and go home. They were still around after the first battle, waiting for the perfect opportunity- as far as they knew, their leader WAS dead. And now that time has come for them, and will come again after this war. The prophecy, in actuality, only deals with a minor part of what's happening in the series. This is what concerns me with Snape- the information he's feeding to both sides could easily be misinterpreted, misinformed, or misguided. The results for either side could be catastrophic. Not to mention the informer!

Edit: Let me clarify what I mean by "feeding information to both sides". I'm not saying I think he's reporting directly to Voldemort. I think he's smart enough to stay away from Voldemort so that V can't pick his mind clean. However, I think he is spying- not on Voldemort himself, but on known death eaters such as Lucius Malfoy. He's been keeping up connections with that particular death eater, and my bet is that Lucius has let more than one critical bit of information slip about what Voldemort has been up to.


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Last edited by McKinnon02; October 13th, 2004 at 7:39 pm.
  #268  
Old October 13th, 2004, 10:35 pm
marauderlupin  Undisclosed.gif marauderlupin is offline
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Thanks for the link, atherella. Such indepth analysis I just go with my gut most of the time


  #269  
Old October 14th, 2004, 6:40 am
fea  Female.gif fea is offline
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Yep. That's what I was going to say.

Voldemort knows Snape is a spy and is playing with him (and Dumbledore). This would make Snape's mission really dangerous.

And the "game" could have been started in the first place by Lucius Malfoy. I mean, Lucius is not dumb. And he must have heard about both Snapes and Karkarofs trials.


  #270  
Old October 14th, 2004, 8:01 am
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Well, you know what they say, the older the man than twice the fool. If Voldemort hasn't figued out Snape by now than he's not all that people make him up to be.
Quote:

Wars are never black and white. They're always several shades of gray. Even if Harry kills Voldemort, do you think the Death Eaters are going to stop committing evil deeds in his name? Or just for the hell of it? They may be damaged for a while, but learning of the death of their leader may spur some-if not most- of them onto even greater evils. The war isn't going to stop the instant LV dies. They aren't just going to pack up their bags and go home. They were still around after the first battle, waiting for the perfect opportunity- as far as they knew, their leader WAS dead. And now that time has come for them, and will come again after this war. The prophecy, in actuality, only deals with a minor part of what's happening in the series. This is what concerns me with Snape- the information he's feeding to both sides could easily be misinterpreted, misinformed, or misguided. The results for either side could be catastrophic. Not to mention the informer!
I agree. The DE's will still have some power even if their leader is gone. But I think that there are several types of DE's and of these we have two main groups: those loyal to the death for Voldemort, and those who won't hesitate to save their own skin should he fall. Lucius was no fool. Even though he was loyal he wasn't stupid enough to spend a life sentence in Azkaban. Anyways, before I go off on a tangent Voldemort is just a leader. If you kill him you can't disband his followers all that easily. Just becasue Hitleris dead doesn't mena anti semitism died with it.

Also I think that a good question that no one has ever really asked before was how high did Snape rise within Voldemort's ranks? The higher you rise the more power and influence you have. Voldemort has his top dogs and than minor servants that he has to do other dirty work. Snape would have to have been very important within the ranks to gain Voldemort's ear.


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  #271  
Old October 14th, 2004, 6:14 pm
Artemis Tyo  Male.gif Artemis Tyo is offline
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I'd say he'd just about have to, I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid. I don't think Snape has voldemort fooled at all. I know Snape can't turn bad again because everyone's expecting that and JKR never does what we expect. So the question is how is Snape pulling something like that and staying alive. Or if it even is Snape thats at the school. Who knows, maybe the real Snape was killed and now a Death Eater (a current Death Eater) is useing Polyjuice potion to get information out of Dumbledore and the rest of the Order, like in book 4. There are a million possibilities out there and I bet you JK Rowling has the one that we couldn't ever possibly expect.


  #272  
Old October 14th, 2004, 7:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McKinnon02
I'm not saying I think he's reporting directly to Voldemort. I think he's smart enough to stay away from Voldemort so that V can't pick his mind clean. However, I think he is spying- not on Voldemort himself, but on known death eaters such as Lucius Malfoy. He's been keeping up connections with that particular death eater, and my bet is that Lucius has let more than one critical bit of information slip about what Voldemort has been up to.
McKinnon02-I absolutely agree that Malfoy is Snape's contact, and that he's not always working directly with Voldemort. I don't think he'd be friends with Lucius at all, though, if Lucius suspected Snape of having betrayed LV. I don't see how Snape would be getting inadvertent info from Lucius unless he was still in the DE circle. Unless you're suggesting that Lucius doesn't know?

The Red Hen guy (I'm always linking to him!) makes an intersting analysis that supports Lucius and Snape having been friends since Hogwarts. It's all speculation, but it works well, and I think it's a good possibility. If that's the case, then Lucius may have actually originally suggested Snape to LV as a spy to be placed in Hogwarts, with himself (a member of the school board) as a contact. Who'd ever notice two old buddies with similar professional ( ) interests talking? Which maybe could help answer Discordia's question:

Quote:
Also I think that a good question that no one has ever really asked before was how high did Snape rise within Voldemort's ranks? The higher you rise the more power and influence you have. Voldemort has his top dogs and than minor servants that he has to do other dirty work. Snape would have to have been very important within the ranks to gain Voldemort's ear.
Perhaps his (possible) long-time friendship with Lucius helped Snape gain LV's trust?

McKinnon02, if I've misinterpreted what you are saying, please correct me!


  #273  
Old October 14th, 2004, 8:08 pm
Tane  Female.gif Tane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis Tyo
I'd say he'd just about have to, I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid. I don't think Snape has voldemort fooled at all. I know Snape can't turn bad again because everyone's expecting that and JKR never does what we expect. So the question is how is Snape pulling something like that and staying alive. Or if it even is Snape thats at the school. Who knows, maybe the real Snape was killed and now a Death Eater (a current Death Eater) is useing Polyjuice potion to get information out of Dumbledore and the rest of the Order, like in book 4. There are a million possibilities out there and I bet you JK Rowling has the one that we couldn't ever possibly expect.
Voldemort was not sure though, he also sounded pained by what he was saying as though he wanted to be 100% sure that one of the death eaters had betrayed him. If Voldemort thinks it is Snape then he feels a little reluctant to admit it, well at least in GoF. Snape would have been one of Voldemorts best death eaters and by the sounds of things someone he felt he could trust enough to have him spy probably on the order and perhaps Snape is so good at sneaking around that Voldemort is definitely not so sure which side he is on. Snape is a very good spy and did fool Voldemort in his first rein because he was spying on Voldemort before his demise for Dumbledore and the order, I mean there is no point in being a good spy if you can not foul anyone is there.


  #274  
Old October 14th, 2004, 8:51 pm
egonza44  Female.gif egonza44 is offline
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Hi everyone!
It's my first time here. I've tried to read all the replies, but maybe I'm going to say something that other one told before. And sorry for my English, it's my second language.
I find very interesting the option of the double-spy. When you think it the first time you say: "OK. This is the sollution to all the debts. But if you stop to think it better it's no so easy.
I believe that Dumbledore and Voldemort are clever guys. If Snape is deceiving one of them or both, they'd know it. I mean, we know that both Dumbledore and Voldemort are very good at Oclu and Legi (they're the biggest wizards), more than Snape. So even if Snape is using these techniques to cheat them, they'd know it.
So maybe one of them knows Snape's double mission and is using him to obtein the information that he need and then...
I think that Snape is a very complex character. I hope that JKR gives him the role that he deserve. In my opinion Snape will be a decisive role in next books.


  #275  
Old October 14th, 2004, 8:56 pm
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The Dark Lord always knows, even though Snape has this big occlumency going for him, Eventually he will mess it up and will be killed (thank god) by the Dark Lord for being a traitor! In the fourth book this is mentioned by the Dark Lord that one has left his service forever, assuming this is Snape, the Dark Lord is smart he will be suspicious why dumbledores puppet has come back to kiss up


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  #276  
Old October 14th, 2004, 10:23 pm
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The thing is kaz, you shouldn't assume that LV was talking about Snape in the graveyard, or that Snape ever stopped spying for LV. Sure, these things might be true, which begs the question, why isn't Snape dead? There may be a reasonable solution to this (maybe LV is using Snape), but it's also just as reasonable to consider that JKR might be throwing out a big stinky red herring there.

egonza44, I believe that the whole Snape is a double-agent theory arose because Snape is obviously not dead in book 5, and is spying for the Order (which he admitted), and is still friends with Lucius Malfoy. Therefore, a lot of us have considered the possibility that Snape is a double-agent, going between LV and DD. This seems to be a possibility since Snape is very good at Occlumency, though we ask each other a lot if he's good enough to fool LV and/or DD. How much all of these people know, and how Snape is going about his job are up for debate. It's a tricky situation no matter how you look at it.

There's a really good article on the previous page of this thread that both atherella and I linked to that's a really good discussion about how Snape might be accomplishing his role as a double-agent. And welcome to the boards, egonza44! I saw you over in the "What did Snape's reaction in GoF mean" thread--I'm glad to see you found your way over here!


  #277  
Old October 15th, 2004, 2:15 pm
egonza44  Female.gif egonza44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaz
In the fourth book this is mentioned by the Dark Lord that one has left his service forever, assuming this is Snape, the Dark Lord is smart he will be suspicious why dumbledores puppet has come back to kiss up
But in the graveyard, Voldemort said:
"And here we ave six missing DE...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever...he will be killed, of course"

These two DE are Karkaroff and Snape, of course. but who is who?
Maybe, Snape is the coward one; Voldie has discovered his secret when he listened his conversation with Quirrell in PS and suspects that Snape knows it.


  #278  
Old October 15th, 2004, 2:19 pm
Voodoo Princess  Female.gif Voodoo Princess is offline
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Id hazzard a guess that Voldemort probably knows about Snape working for Dumbledore, but whether or not it will turn out that Snape is a double agent is up to JK- i find it unlikly though


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  #279  
Old October 15th, 2004, 2:21 pm
arshia  Female.gif arshia is offline
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i guess voldemort knows......he knows stuff


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  #280  
Old October 15th, 2004, 2:23 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egonza44
But in the graveyard, Voldemort said:
"And here we ave six missing DE...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever...he will be killed, of course"

These two DE are Karkaroff and Snape, of course. but who is who?
Maybe, Snape is the coward one; Voldie has discovered his secret when he listened his conversation with Quirrell in PS and suspects that Snape knows it.
Well, the thing is, we really don't KNOW for sure that those two are Karkaroff and Snape. It is really easy to make that assumption, and it very well may be true, but when we go with what seems obvious at the time, we are often blindsighted and in hindsight often wonder why we didn't look outside the box.

I loved the Red Hen guy article. I don't even know if I believe it or not, but it is definitely worth the lengthy read and I highly recommend it to anyone. Especially those that are convinced that Snape wasn't in the graveyard. The article goes through the events of every book and Snape's possible role in them.


 
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