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Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy?



 
 
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  #401  
Old November 3rd, 2004, 8:08 am
dementorsekiss  Female.gif dementorsekiss is offline
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i don't think so, besides he is a very skillful legilimens so i don't think i'll worry about that..


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  #402  
Old November 3rd, 2004, 3:03 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egonza44
Anyway, I have other doubt...maybe you can help me. The Polyjuice potion allow you to take the form of other person and even his power (?) but we can assume that when this person speaks is using his own mind? I only wonder if all the stuff that say Moody-Crouch about Snape (remember their conversation in the staircase with Filch and Harry in his Invisibility cloak pag 513 - 516) is what Moody thought or what Crouch Jr thought. It could be very interesting.
This is all IMHO, of course, but I imagine that when Fake Moody was talking about Snape he was talking from his own POV. I think he did so in such a manner though that it would be impossible for Harry to figure out something was off. What I mean is that part of the reason he kept Moody in the trunk was so that he could interrogate him and learn his mannerisms, etc. I think that he said what he said in such an ambiguous manner that it would sound like an auror saying how much he hates DEs that got away, but in hindsight, we can look back and realize that it was actually Barty's thoughts and not Moody's. Does that make sense?


  #403  
Old November 3rd, 2004, 4:30 pm
egonza44  Female.gif egonza44 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atherella
This is all IMHO, of course, but I imagine that when Fake Moody was talking about Snape he was talking from his own POV. I think he did so in such a manner though that it would be impossible for Harry to figure out something was off.

I think that he said what he said in such an ambiguous manner that it would sound like an auror saying how much he hates DEs that got away, but in hindsight, we can look back and realize that it was actually Barty's thoughts and not Moody's. Does that make sense?
Yes, sometimes Fake Moody had to said some things to seem that he was the real Moody, but most times he is saying what he relly thinks. For example, when he said to Snape:

- Course DD trusts you. He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots that don't come off, d'you know what I mean?

It's imposible not to think that the person that is talking is Crouch Jr. When you don't know that Moody is an impostor you can think that Snape did something bad in the past and Moody (the auror) knows the truth I mean beeing a DE) But when you know all what happened you can't stop thinking that this was the speech of Crouch. I don't believe that real Moody gave that information to Crouch, so I guess he knew it before. He knew that Snape was a DE and now is helping DD, so this is why he talk to Snape in such a manner.

Anyway, I have been reading GoF again and I have a doubt. You know I think that there's a chance that Snape was in the graveyard. Yesterday I read the part in which LV attack Harry and try to kill him, just before Harry try to escape. So, if Snape was there and he saw the intention of LV (kill Harry) what was Snape plan? He was going to let him murder Harry or he had a plan to avoid LV kill him? Because if he had a plan he was going to uncover himself. Of course, Harry escaped and Snape didn't have to do anything, but there was the possibility. What do you think Snape would have done?


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Last edited by egonza44; November 3rd, 2004 at 9:29 pm.
  #404  
Old November 3rd, 2004, 5:55 pm
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvery orb
Well, I think the Mark Evans fiasco goes to show what happens to us fans when we take our imaginations too far. IMHO, JK isn't likely to spend precious time in books 6/7 introducing some out-of-the-blue outlandish plot twist. She's dropped several hints that is Snape pretending to have rejoined the DEs. There are other ways he could be finding out what the DEs are saying, but being a double agent is the best way and the most likely way. I'm not saying it's a fact - anything's possible.

True, LV has lots of reasons to suspect Snape. But as far as Harry goes - Snape wasn't planning to defend himself then. I think, as usual, he underestimated Harry's ability. Harry caught Snape off guard. Snape would be a lot more on top of his game around a DE or LV.
This is true- however, it proves that it CAN be done. And I wonder how much Voldemort's influence played a role in that little break-in. It could be that Harry was not the only one looking at Snape's memories at that point in time.


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  #405  
Old November 3rd, 2004, 6:08 pm
C8H10N4O2  Male.gif C8H10N4O2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egonza44
OK, when Harry and Ron used the polyjuice potion to be like Crabbe and Goyle they only got their bodies, they could talk with "their minds", so we can think that whatever Fake Moody said was a voluntary act. I mean, maybe Fake Moody had to said some things to seem that he was the real Moody, but he could add some own ideas. When he said to Snape:

- Course DD trusts you. He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots that don't come off, d'you know what I mean?

It's imposible not to think that the person that is talking is Crouch Jr. When you don't know that Moody is an impostor you can think that Snape did something bad in the past and Moody (the auror) knows the truth. But when you know all what happened you can't stop thinking that this was the speech of Crouch. I don't believe that real Moody gave that information to Crouch, so I guess he knew it before. He knew that Snape was helping DD, so this is why he talk to Snape in such a manner.
I think this is what atherella was saying, that it was Crouch Jr. making the statements from his own point of view, not from Moody's. However, she was contrasting the meaing of what was said to Snape when considering coming from Moody, when you first read the book, then coming from Crouch Jr., when you get to the end of the book and realize that it wasn't Moody saying this.

The most interesting thing about this quote is how atherella characterized it: ambiguous. The meaning is not really clear what is being said, from either perspective. The statement makes no actual accusation, and cannot really be said to be negative or positive towards Snape. If you thought Moody was talking, then you would add your own interpretation that he was saying he didn't trust Snape as a former Death Eater who wouldn't really change his ways. If you thought Crouch, Jr. was talking, you would add your own interpretation that he was being sly, but actually acknolwedging Snape as a fellow Death Eater.

So, it really isn't clear what this says about Crouch, Jr. thinks about Snape's loyalties, and therefore Voldemort's opinion on the matter.


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  #406  
Old November 4th, 2004, 11:59 am
AmeliaBones  Female.gif AmeliaBones is offline
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What about if Snape is spying via the Malfoys, without Voldy's knowlege, with whom we know he has some sort of friendly relationship? It may be that Snape is actually closer to Naricssa, Lucius's wife than to Lucius. They may be related, or teenage sweethearts that didn't marry because Narcissa's family didn't approve of the match.

Narcissa could be letting Snape into the house. Snape then hides somewhere while Narcissa chats to Lucius about the latest DE developments. Meanwhile Snape uses his Legilimency to penetrate Lucius's mind more deeply for precise information about Vodly's plans.


  #407  
Old November 4th, 2004, 4:29 pm
egonza44  Female.gif egonza44 is offline
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I'm reading book 4 again. I've almost finished it; now I'm trying to guess if Snape was in the graveyard or not (I'm for YES) but if he wasn't there who is he? The DE who left LV forever or the one too coward?
I think it's very probable that be more DE, hidden between the rest of the characters. Let's imagine... It's going to be a new Ministry of Magic, why? Maybe the former die? And why is going to die Fudge? is he the DE that left LV forever?
I'm not sure about this. It's just guesswork. I'm think I'm going crazy trying to understand some things.


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  #408  
Old November 4th, 2004, 5:59 pm
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeliaBones
What about if Snape is spying via the Malfoys, without Voldy's knowlege, with whom we know he has some sort of friendly relationship? It may be that Snape is actually closer to Naricssa, Lucius's wife than to Lucius. They may be related, or teenage sweethearts that didn't marry because Narcissa's family didn't approve of the match.

Narcissa could be letting Snape into the house. Snape then hides somewhere while Narcissa chats to Lucius about the latest DE developments. Meanwhile Snape uses his Legilimency to penetrate Lucius's mind more deeply for precise information about Vodly's plans.
That might work, except for one thing- even the best legilimens (Dumbledore and Voldemort) have to have eye contact in order to use legilimency.


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  #409  
Old November 4th, 2004, 11:36 pm
SyirenSlytherin  Female.gif SyirenSlytherin is offline
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if snape was in the graveyard i don't think there was anything he could've done without getting both Harry and him killed, to be honest. there's also the possiblility that DD had told him about thier wands but it's slim that he anticipated Harry and LV to cast their spells at the same time.


  #410  
Old November 5th, 2004, 9:33 am
AmeliaBones  Female.gif AmeliaBones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McKinnon02
That might work, except for one thing- even the best legilimens (Dumbledore and Voldemort) have to have eye contact in order to use legilimency.
Voldy can read minds without eye contact - he did so with the old Riddle house caretaker in GOF. If he's not such an expert, his hiding may be under an invisibility cloak - opposite Lucius's chair at the dinner table.

I don't think Snape was at the Graveyard withe the Death Eaters - he couldn't have made it back to Hogwarts for the following scene on time unless he took a portkey.


  #411  
Old November 5th, 2004, 5:11 pm
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeliaBones
Voldy can read minds without eye contact - he did so with the old Riddle house caretaker in GOF. If he's not such an expert, his hiding may be under an invisibility cloak - opposite Lucius's chair at the dinner table.

I don't think Snape was at the Graveyard withe the Death Eaters - he couldn't have made it back to Hogwarts for the following scene on time unless he took a portkey.
That's true, however the Malfoy Mansion is probably as well as (if not better) protected against that sort of thing in comparison with #12 Grimmauld Place. An invisibility cloak may not work inside the mansion. And anyone entering the manse under ANY sort of effect from a spell or potion might set off an alarm to warn the Malfoys. Narcissa would probably have a heck of a time disabling that- particularly if she wasn't sure about the other DE's' loyalty.


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  #412  
Old November 6th, 2004, 1:36 pm
egonza44  Female.gif egonza44 is offline
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I've already finished reading book 4. You now I have always said that Snape was a double agent that probably spies the DE (not LV) and was in the graveyard (although I had some doubts about Snspe's plan if LV tried to kill Harry) But, now I've found an interesting thing at the ending of book 4. Sure you remember it, when DD assume that LV has come back he gives intructions to Prof. McGonagall and Prof. Snape. What DD says to Snpae is:

"Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready... if you are prepared...
I am - said Snape"

This make me think: what was Snape doing before? We know so far that Snape is spying in book 5, but DD express himself in such a way that make me think that Snape wasn't doing anything before or he was spying and has to get prepared to do something riskier. So to me, in book 5 Snape is not only spying, but having other mission. The next question is what kind of mission?


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  #413  
Old November 6th, 2004, 1:42 pm
Seamok  Male.gif Seamok is offline
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I think Lord Voldemort does know. He said at the end of GoF that there were a few death eaters missing, and he knew all their identities. One of them, apparently, had turned his back on him permanently. Voldemort didn't expect him to return to his side. So I think he must be talking about Snape.

That is the reason why I think Snape could be the one to die in the coming books.


  #414  
Old November 30th, 2004, 10:13 pm
Island Jack  Male.gif Island Jack is offline
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Definitely. As for who he is actually spying on, Dumbledore or Voldemort, I couldn't say. My guess would be both. I hate to say this, but I think Snape's smart enough to be on his own side.


  #415  
Old November 30th, 2004, 10:13 pm
madd4jimdale  Undisclosed.gif madd4jimdale is offline
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I don't think Voldemort knows that Snape is the spy. If he does then maybe he is using Snape for info about the Order.


  #416  
Old December 1st, 2004, 12:08 am
Yagi  Female.gif Yagi is offline
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I think he doesn't. If he did, don't you think Snape would be gone by now?


  #417  
Old December 1st, 2004, 1:07 am
McKinnon02  Female.gif McKinnon02 is offline
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Let me put it this way: He'd be TREMENDOUSLY stupid if he didn't.

First, you have the whole incident with Quirrellmort. If Snape knew that Voldemort was actually inside Quirrell's body and was supporting him (or spying for him), he never would have acted that way towards him. Or stopped Voldemort from directing Quirrell to kill Harry during that quidditch match. Second, you've got the fact that Snape is so close to Dumbledore it'd be near impossible to think he wasn't at least THINKING about switching sides (assuming he's on one other than his own). And Voldemort is the second most powerful wizard in Britain at the moment, so Snape's Occlumency (while near perfect) would be close to useless. Last, you've got the fact that Snape has probably been snooping around in a few places Lord Voldemort would do well to keep him out of!


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  #418  
Old December 1st, 2004, 1:52 am
shellysn  Female.gif shellysn is offline
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OK - here goes my view.

First, I don't think there is any way Quirrell would have told Snape, or anyone else for that matter, that he had Voldemort in the back of his head. And, I truly believe that Voldemort would not have wanted Snape to blow any kind of "in" he had with Dumbledore.

Second, I don't think that Snape is really high enough in the Death Eater chain of command for Voldemort to really pay much attention to him. I think that Snape spies on Dumbledore for Voldemort but doesn't really meet with him personally. Probably sending his reports and getting his order through a third party.

So, in summary, Voldemort thinks Snape is spying on Dumbledore for him, but he is really spying on the Death Eaters for Dumbldore.

And, as an aside, I think that Snape is the one that warned Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters.


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  #419  
Old December 1st, 2004, 2:27 am
KatieJoy  Female.gif KatieJoy is offline
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I don't think that Voldemort knows... Here's why:

1. If Voldemort knew, Snape would be dead.

2. Snape is a skilled occlemens (sp?) so it would be difficult for Voldemort to find out.


  #420  
Old December 1st, 2004, 3:44 am
camilla7  Female.gif camilla7 is offline
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Yes I agree that I don't think Voldemort knows yet. He would probably have gotten another death eater to dispose of him already if he did. Plus i think what snape is doing will play a role in the other books, so if Voldie knew it, it wouldn't work that well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shellysn
And, as an aside, I think that Snape is the one that warned Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters.
Hey, ya thats smart. I never really thought about it but it makes some sense


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