Layers in Harry Potter

[whizbang121]

The Harry Potter books have so many layers of meaning and interpretation that it's often difficult to stick to one topic. So this thread is where we can follow a thought or idea in one place regardless of the topic. Brainstorming invited.

Fair warning: the post count is off in this forum, but good ideas can and should be posted in the topic threads where they fit.

[Jessica]

Okay,
I've been thinking for a while that it would be smart to make a list of everthign we think is goint to be important to the central mystery.

Off the top of my head:

1) Fidelius charm
2) Dumbledore's full name Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore
3) Grindelwald
4) How did Tom Riddle learn of his ancestry/the Chamber of Secrets
5) Mirrors

That's all I can think of right now. I know I have more. But I thought if we all made lists we could start to see patterns or connections.

Dunno?

[harp230]

Ok... here is my list of important things
1. Harry's parents defying voldie 3 times
2. Petunia knowing about voldie
3. (and the one that bugs me the most) All of the things Harry and neville have in common( birthdates... parents... prophecy...)

[whizbang121]

JKR said that book two was the key to the series.
There's an awful lot happening in book two. We are introduced to
racism
slavery
Tom Riddle
Chamber of Secrets
more socks
centaurs
mirror or erised
flying ford anglias
whomping willows
what else?

But we do need a starting point. What is the central mystery?

Who is Harry Potter and what is his destiny in the magical world?

[whizbang121]

Originally Posted by harp230

Ok... here is my list of important things
1. Harry's parents defying voldie 3 times
2. Petunia knowing about voldie
3. (and the one that bugs me the most) All of the things Harry and neville have in common( birthdates... parents... prophecy...)

We're not sure how much Harry and Neville have in common.

We're not sure they have the same birthdate. Neville may have been born on the 30th. All we know is that he was born at the end of July.

Neville is a pureblood, and Harry is apparently not.

The prophesy was only ever about one with the power to vanquish the dark lord, already approaching when the prophesy was made. As it was about Harry, it wasn't about Neville.

Harry was raised by relatives who despised and abused him.
Neville was raised by a heartbroken grandmother who may have despaired of his magical abilities, but she seemed to love him. And I doubt he was abused. Well, maybe Uncle Algie's efforts on his behalf were a little ... dangerous. But I'll bet Uncle Algie had his wand out to rescue Neville if necessary. I hope.

Neville has an important future. The story is taking two tracks, now. The magical world is at war with the dark lord, but there are also many wrongs that must be righted. Racism, slavery, poor government, all this has taken its toll on the quality of life of all magical beings, not just wizards. I think Neville's future lies in this direction. His lineage and emerging abililities will bring him to his destiny and many lives could ultimately depend on him.

But only Harry can vanquish the dark lord.

[harp230]

ahhh...I know they may/may not have same b-days etc. But dumbledore made it clear for some reason that the prophecy could have been about neville. now i do think that it is a crazy idea that it could still be possible that it is about neville. I do not support that idea at all. why are we told this? Who really cares? There was no mystery. no leading up to it. that bothers me . Why?!

as far as how thne two were raised though. Neville may have had "love" but harry seemes to be a bit more well adjusted person. Neville does not seem to feel all that more loved by his gramdmother.

[whizbang121]

They are different people. Harry's life forced him to mature more quickly perhaps. Neville, for what ever reason, seems a bit of a late bloomer. He has nevertheless had to visit parents who don't even recognise him. Yet, his mother makes touching gestures giving him gum wrappers. But they both have phenomenally good hearts. Their ability to put others before themselves is beyond their years.

[harp230]

Im just saying that Harry seems to have more of an ability to relate to others than Neville.

[whizbang121]

Originally Posted by harp230

Im just saying that Harry seems to have more of an ability to relate to others than Neville.

Neville does seem to struggle.
I hope Neville becomes Headmaster of Hogwarts, marries Ginny Weasley and together they raise seven famously gorgeous redhaired daughters. Perhaps one red haired muggle loving son.
Could be a great spin off. The Adventures of the Longbottom Witches.


This was originally posted by Silver Ink Pot in the core of the series thread. It sums up the complexity of JKR perfectly.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

Since it was the Spartan wit that was appreciated, maybe we should examine humor in the series more closely.

[Sabine]

Originally Posted by whizbang121

But we do need a starting point. What is the central mystery?
Who is Harry Potter and what is his destiny in the magical world?

Whizbang - don't ask such questions or we will find ourselves once again discussing powers and prophecies!!!!

So I just add the points that seem to be somehow interessting to me and haven't been mentioned before in this thread

• what did Voldemort do when he travelled long and far after finishing school
• since none of you seems to like my theory of another enchanted book I would like to ponder on the question: from where did Tom Riddle at the age of 16/17 know how to do an AK
• what is the deeper purpose of Hermione sticking stubbornly to S.P.E.W.
• Eyes
• ghosts
• what did Slytherin after leaving Hogwarts
• Quibbler - is there at least some minimum-level truth in some articels
• how can the houses of Hogwarts be united

that should be enough to begin with - I agree with whizbang - we should find some starting point

Sabine

[purplehawk]

Interesting thread, Whiz. Good idea to start it. IMO there are several key pieces to the puzzle - pieces JK has deliberately kept secret.

• The lineage and history of Lily Evans and James Potter;
• The history of Tom Riddle before he became Lord Voldemort;
• Dumbledore's history, particularly in reference to Grindelwald;
• loads more information about the Department of Mysteries and specifically the force or power behind the locked door; and
• the situation with the Longbottom family.

[whizbang121]

Wow. Well, we all have one thing in common. We want the unanswered questions answered.

I was reading Sabine's thoughts on Salazar Slytherin having stored his memory somehow, probably in a book. I'm not sure I understand everything in the theory, but it seems like Lord Voldemort is actually Slytherin himself possessing Tom through the book or whatever the memory he left behind is stored in.

It's interesting because, I reread the pensieve chapter in GoF yesterday, and right in the beginning, Harry compares the experience of being in Dumbledore's pensieve with being in Tom's memory of how he framed Hargrid. So while moving in and out of memories may be advanced magic, it doesn't seem out of the ordinary in the wizarding world.

But this opens up other questions. Is Tom Riddle possessed by the spirit of Slytherin or is Voldemort seperate from them both? Was Slytherin also possessed by this same spirit? It seems like he was a nice guy who suddenly turned on his friends in the stories we are told. Did he find a book or other memory device that changed him, too? Is it a book or pensieve full of evil memories?

And why does Dumbledore tell Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS that if Harry and Ron hadn't discovered the chamber and the one who had opened it, Ginny would have taken the blame and no one would have questioned her guilt. Are the Weasleys descended from from Slytherin?

[Sabine]

I start with the simplest question - and while prepairing the rest of the house for a fifteenth birthday tomorrow I'm goint to think about the others

Originally Posted by whizbang121

And why does Dumbledore tell Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS that if Harry and Ron hadn't discovered the chamber and the one who had opened it, Ginny would have taken the blame and no one would have questioned her guilt. Are the Weasleys descended from from Slytherin?

Hagrid wasn't related to Slytherin too, but nonetheless he was held responsible for opening the chamber of secrets.

there IS a lot of what would you call it -- concealment - camouflage (I love that word) disguising going on in the wizarding world.

Who would question that Ginny opened the chamber? Only those who know that only the true heir to Slytherin can open it - but how many do that actually KNOW? And those who do seem to know (Malfoy f.e.) wouldn't care - in the contrary they would be pleased to see Ginny taking the blame for that.

Sabine

[phoenixsong]

Originally Posted by whizbang

But this opens up other questions. Is Tom Riddle possessed by the spirit of Slytherin or is Voldemort seperate from them both? Was Slytherin also possessed by this same spirit? It seems like he was a nice guy who suddenly turned on his friends in the stories we are told. Did he find a book or other memory device that changed him, too? Is it a book or pensieve full of evil memories?

Ooh, I like this train of thought, whizbang! I know that Sabine hates to talk about these time-travel theories, but what about if instead of Harry sending Voldemort back to become the ancestor of Slytherin (as in the Ouroboros theory), he sends him back as the disembodied spirit who then possesses Salazar Slytherin, causing Slytherin's fallout with his friends, until, maybe, Godric Gryffindor "vanquishes" him (we haven't yet found out how Slytherin meets his end, but maybe it is by having the evil spirit we call Voldemort driven out of his body). Does this make sense to anyone else?

[Sabine]

Originally Posted by phoenixsong

Ooh, I like this train of thought, whizbang! I know that Sabine hates to talk about these time-travel theories,

This is not the whole truth - I have to confess - I just loved Douglas Adams explanation of that subject!!!!

Just put everything down so clearly he does and I am quite sure to follow --- eventually ... sometimes ...

Actually I HAVE to share it with you:

Originally Posted by enlightening Douglas Adams

The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It has been built on the fragmented remains of ... it will be built on the fragmented ... that is to say it will have been built by this time, and indeed has been -

One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well-adjusted family can't cope with.

The major problem [of time travelling] is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.

[The Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations] will tell you for instance how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it.

I am actually having tears in my eyes again .... how am I supposed to do housework like that---huh

Sabine

[whizbang121]

Me, too!
But, reading Prof Binns again, there does seem to be some reason, founded in doubt and fear, for wanting to exclude muggleborns. They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.

[phoenixsong]

Originally Posted by whizbang

But, reading Prof Binns again, there does seem to be some reason, founded in doubt and fear, for wanting to exclude muggleborns. They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.

okay, here's another thoughtt: what if we start working with the Voldemort possessing Slytherin idea, and think about the content of another, third prophecy, which predicts the actions of muggle-borns in bringing about the downfall of the Dark Lord. Voldemort-as-Slytherin then begins to ensure that no muggle-borns will ever receive the magical training that would bring about his downfall in the future.

It is all messed up in terms of timelines, I know, but I do think that there is an important relationship between Voldemort's and Harry's half-blood status and their power.

edit: oh yeah, this too:

Originally Posted by whizbang

They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.

I don't think we can see this as the basis for Slytherin's anti-muggle ideas. After all, don't we learn that "Witch Burning in the Middle Ages was Completely Pointless"? That is, wizard folk were never under threat from muggles, it is just easier to get on without the nuisance of trying to explain everything to them or work out some sort of way of co-existing. There must be some other explanation for Slytherin's position.

[whizbang121]

I would agree but Prof Binns mentions it.

Originally Posted by Prof Binns, Cos, pg150, Am ed

"...for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much presecution."
""...He (Slyutherin) believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy."

This virtually explains why Slytherin took the view he did.

[Sabine]

I would like to talk about the "grammar of time travel"

No - not really.

but I would like to make a point.

Point:

My believe at the moment is, that timetravel over this long expanded period is not something I think JKR would do. I think the whole matter is to complicated.

Even in the wizarding world time travelling is considered "dangerous". All this paperwork and convincing that has to be done by Minerva and Albus to get a time-turner for Hermione is not just there to "bother" people. It is dangerous. There are strict rules for time travelling.

So - my point is - travelling back in time for 3 hours is ok. JKR could maintain both timelines very well and very convincing.

I doubt that this could be done for several years - let alone almost thousand years which would have to relived if someone sends some immortal Voldemort to the past to possess Slytherin.

So I think in explaining that so that it truely would work JKR would not only loose me have way through but a substantial amount of the readers. I don't think she will take that risk.

In my eyes the solution to the "Riddle" has to be a simple one. Astonishingly simple so that everyone will go on for hours :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: for not having seen it her/himself.

End of Point

Sabine

[phoenixsong]

Originally Posted by Sabine

In my eyes the solution to the "Riddle" has to be a simple one. Astonishingly simple so that everyone will go on for hours :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: for not having seen it her/himself.

End of Point

I'm inclined to agree, Sabine! It was pure speculation, on my part. But I also think that it has to be a satisfying explanation, emotionally satisfying, so I don't think the "Slytherin's Diary" theory really provides the kind of "oomph" that is required.

I want it to be something deeply resonant, like the moment that Harry recognizes his Patronus as Prongs, in my estimation the most powerful moment in all the books to date. Something that brings together the interrelationship of the past and the present. But I don't know what that might be, either.