Ron is Dumbledore and Flamel--due to time travel...

[Dedalus Diggle]

Originally Posted by killer4605

droobles best blowing gum has 1 N in it.

ron b w is muggle born has 2 Ns.

I just did a little re-jiggering of the letters and came up with two alternatives that work, but I'm afraid they are just a bit too cheeky to post. I would suggest that this line of inquiry is a non-starter.

[rock_ally]

An extremely good point is made by vmonte, and i almost beleived it, but there is a huge flaw.

In all the books, we have only known Dumbledore to make one mistake, or at least one that he could not catch on time, or fix. It was not telling Harry about the prophecy. If Dumbledore had already lived out the events then he would have known to tell Harry sooner.

[Mistress Moony]

In all the books, we have only known Dumbledore to make one mistake, or at least one that he could not catch on time, or fix. It was not telling Harry about the prophecy. If Dumbledore had already lived out the events then he would have known to tell Harry sooner.

But if it is true that Ron and DD are the same person and the rules of time travel from PoA hold, that one cannot be seen and one cannot change time, then DD has no choice but to make the same decisions he (Ron) remembers himself (DD) making. Therefore, so that DD can keep his time travel a secret as well as prevent changing the course of events, he waits unil the end of the OotP to tell Harry about the prophecy. DD then lies to Harry about why he waited so long to provide him with this pertinent piece of information. There is a strong element of truth to this lie though, which is DD's love for Harry. Ron also loves Harry. I think DD admitting his love for Harry at the end of the OotP is a strong piece of evidence for the Ron = DD theory. Although I'd already read the HP books a few times, this is the only theory that's prompted me to re-read them, searching for all the evidence, of which there is a great deal. Disregarding the Flamel component, I think this is a great theory.

[Padfoot_001]

When I read the title of this thread, I thought to myself, 'what rubbish,' but when I read your explanation, I thought why not. Really great theory here and even though every part of me says it isn't true, I'm going to support this theory anyway, why not. Good idea, bet your head hurt after that one I know mine would (if it was even capable of such things).

[SiriusLives1621]

That's an interesting theory, but I must say that if it were true it would completely ruin the series for me...I mean its depressing me just by reading the theory...I dont konw why, but i dont like the idea of all of them being the same person :-(

[N Save Evans]

Hello Everyone,

This is a wonderful theory. Vmonte -- you are an eloquent defender!

I was involved in a protracted (and sometimes heated) discussion about this theory in the Usenet newsgroup alt.fan.harry-potter.

While the topic diverged into metaphysics, there are a number of interesting thoughts. So, I thought I'd give you all some links to the more interesting discussions.

http://tinyurl.com/6cjj8

http://tinyurl.com/4gjfa

http://tinyurl.com/6mkzu

http://tinyurl.com/5mqbx

Some of my favorite points that I haven't seen discussed in the excellent thread here:

1) The "London Underground" scar was not caused by the whomping willow, but rather by the "Brain Attack." As Mm. Pomfrey said, memories can leave the deepest scars.

2) The encounter between the kids and Prof. Marchbanks at the beginning of the OWLs was a deliciously ironic, and well-choreographed scene where any attempt to identify Ron as the young Dumbledore was skillfully avoided.

3) The Pensieve is being used by Dumbledore as a way to avoid knowing too much of the past/future. He is revealing his memory (or foreknowledge) piece by piece. This helps explain why DD has strange knowledge of events -- not so much before they occur, but _as_ they occur.

4) In PS/SS -- Hermione's "hearing" that Dumbledore was a Gryffindor. He was -- when he was Ron!

5) New meaning to DD's statement that: he has been keeping a close eye on Harry, "closer than you
can imagine." Unlikely for Harry to imagine that DD has seen Harry's life through Ron's eyes!

Anyway -- fun stuff. Take Care.

[IceKat55]

The only problem I have with this theory is that, in PoA, Harry & Hermione didn't travel back in time to change anything...they went back to prevent.

If the war ends badly for the Order/good guys, then that's the way it ends and they'll have to deal. If Ron/DD (from a point in the future where Voldemort has won) were to travel back in time to change the outcome of the war so that the good guys win....then from that point, where the war ends well for the Order, he (young Ron) wouldn't know that he'd need to travel back to change anything. Does that make sense? The war would have ended well, so life would just go on, and he'd never know that he needed to travel back to "put things right". That creates a time paradox of some kind, I'm sure...

*am now very confused*

[phoenix49]

If Ron/DD (from a point in the future where Voldemort has won) were to travel back in time to change the outcome of the war so that the good guys win....then from that point, where the war ends well for the Order, he (young Ron) wouldn't know that he'd need to travel back to change anything. Does that make sense? The war would have ended well, so life would just go on, and he'd never know that he needed to travel back to "put things right". That creates a time paradox of some kind, I'm sure...

I agree it doesn't makes sense! Good job icekat)

[N Save Evans]

Originally Posted by phoenix49

I agree it doesn't makes sense! Good job icekat)

Any time travel introduces a paradox -- except for the kind of time travel where one observes only and isn't really there... Like Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol."

JKR has already committed a paradox -- so what's the crime (beyond the literary one folks seem so fond of accusing Ron/DD theorists with of committing another?

There's no requirement in Potterverse (that I know of) that Ron must be caught in an infinite loop! After all, Harry & Hermione didn't have to go back and use the time-turner again and again after putting things right with Buckbeak and Sirius! They just went on happily!

[Creatively Evil]

Very interesting, but would ruin the series if this happened. It's not totally non-believable, but I've heard a lot more likeable theories. I do think that Dumbledore may use a time turner sometimes, but not all the time or history would get messed up.

[IceKat55]

Originally Posted by N Save Evans

JKR has already committed a paradox -- so what's the crime (beyond the literary one folks seem so fond of accusing Ron/DD theorists with of committing another?

There's no requirement in Potterverse (that I know of) that Ron must be caught in an infinite loop! After all, Harry & Hermione didn't have to go back and use the time-turner again and again after putting things right with Buckbeak and Sirius! They just went on happily!

But that's just my point...Harry & Hermione didn't CHANGE anything. They PREVENTED events that might have taken place. There was only one timeline, with two pairs of H/Hr's running around. Buckbeak was never killed, Sirius was never kissed. They didn't go back to change either of those events...but to prevent them from ever happening.

I guess this is exactly why Time Travel isn't possible...it's too bloody confusing!

[N Save Evans]

Originally Posted by LuvHP026

Very interesting, but would ruin the series if this happened. It's not totally non-believable, but I've heard a lot more likeable theories. I do think that Dumbledore may use a time turner sometimes, but not all the time or history would get messed up.

Why would it ruin the series? Lots of folks have said the same to me, but I don't understand. But then again, I've always loved time travel plots in sci-fi. Some people just hate it.

Originally Posted by IceKat55

But that's just my point...Harry & Hermione didn't CHANGE anything. They PREVENTED events that might have taken place. There was only one timeline, with two pairs of H/Hr's running around. Buckbeak was never killed, Sirius was never kissed. They didn't go back to change either of those events...but to prevent them from ever happening.

I guess this is exactly why Time Travel isn't possible...it's too bloody confusing!

I love confusion!

I don't understand your distinction between "changing" events and "preventing" them. Prevention is change. How do you know that JKR couldn't write the Ron/DD time travel subplot so that there would be only "one timeline." Personally, I think she could pull it off if she wanted to.

[IceKat55]

Originally Posted by N Save Evans

I don't understand your distinction between "changing" events and "preventing" them. Prevention is change. How do you know that JKR couldn't write the Ron/DD time travel subplot so that there would be only "one timeline." Personally, I think she could pull it off if she wanted to.

Okay, let's just suppose that, in the original timeline, Buckbeak had been executed, his head was chopped off, he's dead.

So DD sends H/Hr back in time to change that. They go back 3 hours in time, and stop the execution. So then, from that point forward, Buckbeak would never have been killed, therefore, from that same point forward, DD would never know that he needs to send H/Hr back to change/stop the execution.

Does that make better sense? I'm trying to work it out in my own head...

*head explodes*

[N Save Evans]

Originally Posted by IceKat55

Okay, let's just suppose that, in the original timeline, Buckbeak had been executed, his head was chopped off, he's dead.

So DD sends H/Hr back in time to change that. They go back 3 hours in time, and stop the execution. So then, from that point forward, Buckbeak would never have been killed, therefore, from that same point forward, DD would never know that he needs to send H/Hr back to change/stop the execution.

Does that make better sense? I'm trying to work it out in my own head...

*head explodes*

I see where you're going, but how did DD know to send Harry & Hermione back in time if Buckbeak never actually was killed?

See, JKR's already committed a paradox!

[phoenix49]

Yup, exactly so his theory could works if he doesn't say OoP lost the 2nd war. Cause if they did, sending Ron back to prevent their defeat would not work since he already tried to change things in the present but it didn't work since they lost. Erf It's hard to explain for a frenchie but I think Icekat explained it well.

see where you're going, but how did DD know to send Harry & Hermione back in time if Buckbeak never actually was killed?

The question is how DD knew he had to kill time to be sure Harry and Hermione can deliver Buck? He knew already that he would, in the future, ask them to go back in the past in order to prevent Buck/Sirius Execution?

[filius]

That would be crazy! The plot is already complicated enough. It would be a near replica of book 3 so I think this is a crazy idea! No way can she do this when the story has already been laid out! There are only 2 books left in the series! Do you think she has the same ideas as you in her head? Unless of course she comes to CoS Forums to get ideas for her books.

[IceKat55]

Originally Posted by N Save Evans

I see where you're going, but how did DD know to send Harry & Hermione back in time if Buckbeak never actually was killed?

Because the execution was set, they knew it was coming...

That's what I mean by "changing" and "preventing". They didn't "change" Buckbeak's death...they "prevented" it from ever happening.

[N Save Evans]

Originally Posted by phoenix49

The question is how DD knew he had to kill time to be sure Harry and Hermione can deliver Buck? He knew already that he would, in the future, ask them to go back in the past in order to prevent Buck/Sirius Execution?

He'd know if he was really Ron, gone back in time!

Originally Posted by IceKat55

Because the execution was set, they knew it was coming...

That's what I mean by "changing" and "preventing". They didn't "change" Buckbeak's death...they "prevented" it from ever happening.

The "execution" never happened! And DD should have known that when he sent Harry and Hermione back in time! He would have already witnessed the non-execution. It's still a paradox!

[IceKat55]

Originally Posted by N Save Evans

The "execution" never happened!

Right, it didn't ever happen, but it was scheduled to happen, DD knew it was only a matter of time before the Minister & executioner came to perform the task.

Originally Posted by N Save Evans

And DD should have known that when he sent Harry and Hermione back in time! He would have already witnessed the non-execution. It's still a paradox!

Dumbledore DID know, at that point, that Buckbeak had been saved. Once he had gotten it all worked out in his own head (in the infirmary scene), then he knew that he needed to send them back in order to prevent the execution, and he also knew that they'd be successful at it because it had never happened. Had he not sent H/Hr back in time at that point, the execution would have happened, and Sirius would have been kissed by the dementors.

[N Save Evans]

Originally Posted by IceKat55

Right, it didn't ever happen, but it was scheduled to happen, DD knew it was only a matter of time before the Minister & executioner came to perform the task.

I disagree. When DD sent Ron and Hermione back, BB had already been "executed" (not) and Sirius had already been caught (and freed). DD should have known this.

Originally Posted by IceKat55

Dumbledore DID know, at that point, that Buckbeak had been saved. Once he had gotten it all worked out in his own head (in the infirmary scene), then he knew that he needed to send them back in order to prevent the execution, and he also knew that they'd be successful at it because it had never happened. Had he not sent H/Hr back in time at that point, the execution would have happened, and Sirius would have been kissed by the dementors.

I think this contradicts what you said above. How is this not "changing" the past?