Does Malfoy really know what he's getting into?

[smartypants]

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post)
Except Draco hates Dumbledore.

Nah. He just thinks that only-pure blood should be allowed, and therefore thinks he is a crappy headmaster. Ideas he has gotten from his dad. There are no indications that Draco hates Dumbledore. He just repeats his fathers opinions about Dumbledores running of the school.

And he's seen the worst that the Death Eaters can do. He really has.

Oh, has he really? When? Was he with Harry when Cedric died, or with Crouch Jr when they tortured the Longbottoms to insanity, or with Wormtail when he killed a whole bunch of muggles in one blow, or...?

In fact, he has seen nothing of what the Death Eaters can do, except perhaps he has seen Cedrics dead body from a distance.

What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?

And enjoy it, yes.
Yes, he is on the evil side. The point is that he doesn't know what he is getting into. He thinks it's "cool". Rather like a fourteen year old kid smoking dope. "Coool."

No, it isn't. He has no idea of what he is getting into. He will GET an idea, though, and then we'll see if he changes his mind or not. We don't know yet. :??:

[She's Crafty]

Except Draco hates Dumbledore. And he's seen the worst that the Death Eaters can do. He really has. And he wants to join!! He mocked Diggory's death. He cheered his father's Muggle torture, he reveled in the Basilisk attacks. What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?

As has already been pointed, no he hasn't seen the worst the Death Eaters can do, and nor do i think he has any idea of what it's like. I think the cheering of Cedric's death was an extrememly cheap way to score points off Harry. True, it was an awful thing he said but that really was the crux of it - getting one over on Potter.

Now if Draco killed someone with Avada Kedavra - no way would he be redeemable after that, that is the poverbial line he would have to cross to become fully corrupted. Draco could never go back from that in my estimation, not at all. So yes, he would be truly evil then.

Okay, I was just curious about the point at which you folks would be willing to write him off. You're a lot more patient than I am.

In my case it's got more to do with character development. In my view Draco doesn't have much layers (as we only see him from Harry's point of view) if he did become redeemed or even in fact became evil that would help develop his character. The strange thing here is that i don't usually like characters like Draco. At all. JK has really done a number on me here...

Something i do wonder about - what will all the dissenters do if Draco does choose Dumbeldore's side? Just curious. I know if Draco becomes evil i'd get really mad, shout a lot. Then drag myself in here and apologise for boring everyone to death with my theories. And then shout some more. :devil:

[smartypants]

I also want Draco to see the error of his ways and become good. I guess JK does this by showing us that he just is a little immature kid, so that you keep on thinking that there is hope.

[Perdita]

Hello again, She's Crafty, and hats off to you!

I'm going to try and re-join this discussion. I want to look at whether or not Draco will in the end choose to side with DD or his father and Voldemort.

These are just my notes, so if there are any inconsistencies or queries, I welcome a response from anyone who is interested.

Draco Malfoy and Snape Comparison

Similarities

• Both come from the house of Slytherin.
• Both excel at making potions.
• Both feel that they are at the butt of injustice.
• Both are, or have been suspected of being practitioners of dark magic.
• Both dislike Harry Potter and everything that the Gryffindor house represents.
• Both use covert and unjust means to antagonize Harry and his friends.
• Both seem to be isolated and friendless. Grabbe and Coyle do not count as friends in my books.
• Both feel, or have felt, that they are under pressure to live up to the Slytherin image of being self-serving, conniving, manipulative and possibly evil.

Parallels

• Draco and Harry, Snape and James Potter.
• Snape was once a supporter of Voldemort. He later turned back to the good side and helped
• Dumbledore spy against Voldemort.
• James saved Snape’s life. Harry has yet to save Draco’s life in a direct conflict.
• Snape, based on his personal experiences with James and the marauders, believes that they were given special treatment by the teachers undeservedly. Malfoy seems to feel the same way about Harry and his friends, that they get away with too often for their infractions against school rules.
• In the future, we could see Malfoy experience the reverse of what Snape experienced. Instead of turning to redemption, he solidifies his role as a DE.
• Or, Malfoy could do what Snape did, and become a spy against his father for Dumbledore.

Differences

• Snape is very bitter about the injustices that he’s experienced.
• Malfoy is still young, and does not seem to have developed much bitterness. Instead, he seems to be having quite a bit of fun with playing pranks on Harry and Co.

My Prediction?

He will not repeat what Snape did. He will turn against DD and fight for Voldemort. He will believe in the lies that Voldemort and Lucius feed him. He will believe that that is his only way of attaining power and control over others. Thus far, he has not shown any backbone or courage to fight what is bad for the sake of goodness. I don’t think that he has the courage to stand up to Lucius and Voldemort.

[Weatherby]

Excellent post Perdita!
I haven't noted any discrepencies in your list. It seems acurate to me.
We'll need more books before we can see any signs that Draco will turn the way Snape does.
If he turns against Voldemort his father will cut him from the wealth. I don't think Draco is strong enough to turn from that.

[jordmundt6]

Okay, I'm going to try to respond to everybody.

Crafty--If Draco does choose Dumbledore's side, you won't see me on these boards, I'll either be in the hospital or dead from the sheer shock of it. Especially because JK has already said in interviews that Harry and Draco WILL NEVER WORK TOGETHER AGAINST VOLDEMORT. Ahem. sorry to yell.

Peridita--the general similarity is there, but your list is flawed.

1. We have no evidence that Draco is actually any good at potions, just that Snape cuts him a world of slack. We've never seen him come up with a perfect potion (though I'm sure the second he did, Snape would trumpet it throughout the dungeon).

2. Snape has and had many friends (Slytherin friends) in school. He was their leader and the best student of them. They even had a Dark equivalent of James/Lily in the Lestranges who are so inseparable they've yet to be identified individually (by anybody). I think these connections are stronger than Crabbe-Goyle lackeys because they support each other in later life, but they could be alliances of convenience. Can't argue with the injustice thing (though this really has more to do with perception on Draco's part than actual ill treatment). Snape does not hate everything that Gryffindor stands for or there is no way he would allow himself to be loyal to Dumbledore and there is no way he would refrain from disparaging Lily (he would sound like Lucius, not as he does now).

The rest of the similarities list I agree with. How is Snape's spy conduct a parallel to Draco. Draco has been reared as the heir to one of the greatest Death Eaters there is, he actively supports dark activity, taking every opportuity to antagonize all non-purebloods and Squibs (his torture of Neville is fairly easy to spot). We don't yet have evidence that Snape tried these things on Squibs or Muggle-borns like Lily and I'm positive he's never wished Lily dead.

Draco doesn't actually see Harry's movements as special treatment (he sees the adulation he gets as unfounded and the fact that he got on the House Quidditch team as a first year as an unfortunate fluke, but he only has two minor incidents of special treatment to really complain about (one being the Hogsmeade mudbath). In all other cases, he's able to easily manipulate the situation to counteract any advantage Harry has. In fact, he can be seen goading and manipulating the Trio, and even capitalizing on Snape's hatred of Harry at least as often (actually more often) than he can point to special treatment. But, I think your prediction is accurate. I just think Draco is already there. He's not on the edge, he's over it.

[Perdita]

Weatherby and Jordmundt6,

Thanks for responding to my post. And thanks for the compliment, Weatherby!

Jord,

I hope you won't end up in the hospital. But if you do, please continue posting here because I sure do enjoy reading your posts. ;D

And I think you're bang on about Draco being an opportunist, taking advantage of a situation and Snapes hatred of Harry.

As for Snape's schooling years, I don't know where you got the info that he was a ring-leader. I've always imagined him to be a loner. Did Rowling tell us about this in GOF? Could you give me some textual references to this? Thanks.

Re: Neville - I wouldn't call the leg-locker curse an act of torture. It was a prank to humiliate Neville, but that is not the same as toruture. Torture is systematic, and it is sustained for a long period of time. It's not a momentary thing like with the leg-locker curse.

If you're referring to another incident, then I'd like to hear it. Honestly, I cannot remember the other instances.

Cheers!

*****
EDIT

About Draco already having chosen which side he wants to take, I agree with Jordmundt6 as well. This is because of how he spoke to Harry on the train at the end of GOF. It used to be that he would talk a lot, and I suspected how much he really meant what he said. Now, after having read the last 3 chapters of GOF several times, it sounds to me like Draco is speaking with quite a bit of conviction. It does sound to me like he has chosen the other side.

[jordmundt6]

GoF "Padfoot Returns." "He was in with a whole gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters" (referring to Snape). Sirius goes on to list Rosier, the Lestranges, Avery (who weaseled his way out with Imperius Curse line straight from the manure pile) and a couple others. Notice, these are all acquiaintances and allies of Snape in later life and Malfoy was like a mentor to them. Snape would have been a prodigy among them ("He knew more curses when he came to school than halof the students in seventh year.") I think his brains and his war with the Marauders would have made him a good candidate for a leader of this crew, particularly since most of the others are joiners with marshmallow wills ("Forgive us master, forgive us." "Crucio!") Man that was some forgiveness, wasn't it Avery?

[Perdita]

Hm...okay, for now, I'll trust Sirius because he is one of the good guys. However, based on the hostile history that he has with Snape, I am not sure if Sirius might have some biases and misperceptions of Snape. In that passage, Sirius still makes a comment on Snape's appearance as "[sic]Slimy, oily, greasy- haired kid[...]" He also says that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts. The rest of that passage, Sirius is making inferences based on what he had observed, not based on what he knows as fact. There is actually a lot that Sirius does not know of Snape. This is why I wouldn't quite trust Sirius all the way. There is quite a possibility that he is mistaken.

****
And if GOF has taught us anything, it's that appearances can be deceiving.
****

Also, just because Snape was the highest-achieving student does not make him a ring-leader.

And now I've gone completely off the topic of Malfoy. :sorry:

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Perdita (original post)
Draco Malfoy and Snape Comparison
[...][*]Both are, or have been suspected of being practitioners of dark magic.

I would change this to "Both are attracted to dark magic." Or at least, Draco *is*, and Snape *was*, when he was in school.

I think these similarities are also quite enough to explain why Snape likes Draco, it doesn't have to do anything with Lucius. Snape just sees himself in Draco.

That they both have friends has been mentioned by others, so I won't repeat that anymore.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post)
1. We have no evidence that Draco is actually any good at potions, just that Snape cuts him a world of slack. We've never seen him come up with a perfect potion (though I'm sure the second he did, Snape would trumpet it throughout the dungeon).

And indeed he has. In at least one instance, he has told the class about Dracos perfect potion. So, we at least know he doesn't suck at it.

[Inkwolf]

In point of fact, already in the very first potions class, he calls the class over to show tham that Malfoy is making a perfect job of stewing his slugs. I think half the reason that Snape cuts Malfoy so much slack is that Malfoy is a gifted potions student.

And I don't agree that Snape was the ringleader. I think that he was a misfit and loner by nature, but that his dark arts skills attracted the Junior DE's so that they included him in their group of outcasts and malcontents. (Like the slimebags or nerds or other unpopular types in high school who hang out with each other.) Snape, possibly never having been accepted as part of a group before, probably was twice as obnoxious thereafter, in the attempt to keep and to impress his new friends. In my opinion, he became a Death Eater by following his friends, and fortunately had enough character to break it off later, when he realized that his ideas of glory and world domination didn't include harming innocent people for fun.

But I do think (to cross subjects with the 'Why does Snape Teach' thread's current focus) that Snape did not rat out his friends to the ministry when he switched sides. I think he did think of them as real friends, people who picked him up and made a fuss over him and stood by him back when he was a nobody. We know Snape has a loyal nature--even toward those he dislikes, such as James Potter, he feels a sense of duty. I'm sure his sense of loyalty toward those he grew up with remains strong at least some degree.

I doubt that Lucius Malfoy was a mentor to the group, or even aware of them--unless he was the former Potions master or something we're unaware of. Hagrid said that Voldemort appeared and began gathering followers by giving 'join or die' ultimatums to powerful wizards and witches. I can just see the Lestranges (or someone) volunteering, and eagerly convincing the rest that this is the ultimate opportunity to get in on the ground floor of...

[She's Crafty]

Crafty--If Draco does choose Dumbledore's side, you won't see me on these boards, I'll either be in the hospital or dead from the sheer shock of it. Especially because JK has already said in interviews that Harry and Draco WILL NEVER WORK TOGETHER AGAINST VOLDEMORT. Ahem. sorry to yell.

Sorry, i just that was funny. As for that JK quote, i found the web chat that was made in and that in fact was not what she said. She said she'd read the rumour and that you shouldn't believe rumours (in other words, she never confirmed or denied it).

Ok, if Draco did go evil (and yes, i still hope that he does not, call me delusional) the way i'd see it ending is in an actual show down with Harry - alone. Actually, i really have to confess that i've had fanfic ideas about writing that happening and i wouldn't complain (despite it not being the outcome i really would want to see).

[Perdita]

Smartypants, thanks for the suggestion.

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post)
In point of fact, already in the very first potions class, he calls the class over to show tham that Malfoy is making a perfect job of stewing his slugs. I think half the reason that Snape cuts Malfoy so much slack is that Malfoy is a gifted potions student.

Thank you, Inkwolf. I knew I wasn't imagining things. I just couldnt' remember the specific examples.

And I don't agree that Snape was the ringleader. I think that he was a misfit and loner by nature, but that his dark arts skills attracted the Junior DE's so that they included him in their group of outcasts and malcontents. (Like the slimebags or nerds or other unpopular types in high school who hang out with each other.) Snape, possibly never having been accepted as part of a group before, probably was twice as obnoxious thereafter, in the attempt to keep and to impress his new friends. In my opinion, he became a Death Eater by following his friends, and fortunately had enough character to break it off later, when he realized that his ideas of glory and world domination didn't include harming innocent people for fun.

LOL, I totally agree with the first part.

[Sinistra]

Here's another thing about Draco, he has been shown every reason why he should become a Death Eater: he inherits a vast fortune, he becomes an influential and powerful person, he gets to do pretty much whatever he wants, he gets respect and if not that at least fear, he hangs with the "best" people, he is saving the wizarding world by keeping the bloodlines pure.

He has not been given or shown any reasons why he should not be a Death Eater other than people saying, "they are evil and bad". Draco, being a Slytherin and an opportunist, will ask, "what's in it for me?" Until he gets shown that he will have terrible consequences, and maybe die or end up in Azkaban, he won't think twice about it. And, realistically he thinks his wealth and family name will save him from the bad consequences. He also needs to be shown happy positive reasons for not becoming a Death Eater.

So Draco will probably become a Death Eater, just because he has no (to his mind) good reason not to.

[Perdita]

Sinistra, I think you're right.

Okay, what do you all think of this assessment?

Draco Malfoy and Snape Relationship

Teacher and pupil
Father-figure and charge

Malfoy’s development hinges on his relationship with Snape.

If he respects Snape more than the respects his father, then he will choose to follow in Snape’s path of redemption. If he respects his father more than Snape, then he will follow his father to become a death eater.

I don't think that there's enough time to develop a Malfoy storyline like Snape's where he first chooses to join his father, but in the end he turns to Snape and seeks redemption. And besides, this story is about Harry Potter, not Draco Malfoy.

-----
Do you think that this is realistic?

Has Rowling shown us that Malfoy really does have a good relationship with Snape, one that is more of the mentor-"protoge" than just teacher-student? (Sorry, not sure what the correct word is)

It seems to me that Malfoy has a closer relationship with Lucius, and that is based on what I read in COS. In GOF, their relationship is quite ambiguous. I still don't know if Malfoy fears his father, or respects him, or idolizes him, or all of the above?

I have to be honest and say that when I read the books, I don't focus on the details of Malfoy and Snape that much. Many of you here would know more about it and hopefully, will be able to post some evidence because I have none. I'm just going on impressions.

[harp230]

Personally, I do not think Snape is to concerned with Malfoy or anyone else for that matter other than Harry or Dumbledore. As long as Dumbledore trusts him, Snape does not really care what anyone says or does. Of course, Snape has his issues, especially his anger towards Harry. But any favoritism towards Malfoy seems to be more of a byproduct of disliking Harry rather than liking Malfoy. While it is a bit of a generalization, Snape tends to praise/favor Malfoy after Snape has critisized Harry. Snape is so incocistent in his actions it is hard to figure out his true intentions in regards to Malfoy. Snape is constantly angry with Harry yet he saves his life. Snape is mean and spiteful yet he values Dumbledore's trust so much.

[She's Crafty]

I found a really interesting quote from JK herself about Dudley:

"...I see Dudley as being just as abused as Harry."

If she thinks that way about Dudley that surely she sees the same thing with Draco (only Draco is undermined by his parents, not overly nurtured as Dudley is). Now that has really given me reknewed hope that Draco will choose the right side - i still believe that Dumbeldore's quote about choosing either what is right and what is easy is really going to produce some surprises - Malfoy being one of them.

You can find that and some other interesting stuff from this scan of Book Magazine at Dark Mark. http://www.darkmark.com

[Perdita]

She's Crafty,

if what you say is true, that DD's statement applies also to Malfoy, what do you make of the final scene in the train when Malfoy brings up the question of choice, telling Harry point blank that he made the wrong decision?

I am interested to know how you would interpret Malfoy's actions and statements here.

[She's Crafty]

I think i've said this before but anyways:

Draco's actions at the end of GoF in my view were very simple - he saw it as an opportunity to let Harry know he has the upper hand on him. It was (and always has been) about point scoring and to Draco Voldemort's return is pretty big and i often wonder how much he really believes in the Dark Lord himself other than something to use against Harry. The whole nasty taunt about Cedric was a deliberate goad that backfired. It was cruel and horrible but that was really all it was about - point scoring.

I know that while the Malfoys are still rich Draco will never change sides but consider this - what if they finally get court out and lose their entire fortune? Draco isn't going to stick with Voldie then but i feel Lucius would.