Discussion of a possible Pureblood Supremacist Agenda?

[whizbang121]

Through the day today, the idea has been evolving in my mind that the Harry Potter books aren't about Harry at all. They aren't about Voldemort or Dumbledore or the War in the Magical World.

The HP series is a tale of vengence, the characters moved around like chesspieces on a board. But who is the chessmaster? Who has an agenda beyond the War in the Magical World, the control of Gringotts gold, the Dark Lord, Voldemort and the Prophesy of Sibyll Trelawney? And what is that agenda?

Why is Chapter 28 of OotP called "Snape's Worst Memory?" Surely, this can't be the worst memory of man who suffered unknown miseries in his childhood, a powerful wizard who became a Death Eater swearing allegiance to the Dark Lord, Voldemort, a deserter who escaped the service of the Dark Lord only to face Azkaban and the dementors. If Snape wasn't under the protection of Dumbledore, the DE's should have killed him by now, but instead, he maintains close ties with Lucius Malfoy.

What is Snape's agenda? James and Lily are betrayed and dead. Sirius, after years of incarceration at Azkaban, is also dead. And Remus Lupin, in ragged clothes, unemployable, his reputation ruined, lives the life of an outsider.
Peter Pettigrew however remained safe in the household of Molly Weasley.

What is the underlying plot of this series? What's going on beneath the surface?

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

And how did both Harry and Voldemort survive the death curse in Godric's Hollow?

[HermioneLuna]

You totally stole my thread title . I'm kidding I think your theory is a good one that deserves a lot of thought, so before I respond to it, I have a question. Does it say in any of the books that Petter was safe in Molly's household? I don't remember that, but it could very well be there.

[whizbang121]

Originally Posted by HermioneLuna

You totally stole my thread title . I'm kidding I think your theory is a good one that deserves a lot of thought, so before I respond to it, I have a question. Does it say in any of the books that Petter was safe in Molly's household? I don't remember that, but it could very well be there.

I did. I'll change it.

Peter was Scabbers.

[HermioneLuna]

Originally Posted by whizbang121

I did. I'll change it.

Peter was Scabbers.

You didn't have to. I was kidding. But thanks anyway. I had totally neglected the Scabbers part of it. I was thinking something else entirely and I was confused. Anyway, you made a lot of good points in your initial post. I'm going to have to think about some the questions you asked before I answer them. But there are a couple I can answer now.

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

I don't think Voldemort wanted to kill Lily. Ironic, though, since she was a muggle born witch who mothered the child who could stop him. Maybe, in his mind leaving Lily without Harry or James would be more torture for her than killing her. Possible counter argument: Voldemort thinks nothing is worse than death. True, but Voldemort also tortures his victims. That could have been his way of torturing Lily before ultimately killing her at some time other than that night at Godric's Hollow.

That offers my thoughts on why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily, but the question is why did Voldemort tell Harry that Lily didn't have to die. Maybe Voldemort just wasn't thinking when he said it. Maybe he thought Lily was a fool for refusing to step aside and wanted Harry to view Lily that way as well. Voldemort might want Harry to blame Lily for leaving him (Harry) an orphan. If Lily didn't have to die, but chose to anyway, then Voldemort could claim it was Lily's fault she died, not his, even if he was the one who killed her. This probably makes perfectly logical sense in Voldemort's mind. Voldemort didn't know that Lily saved Harry when he made that remark.

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

I think that he thought his most faithful servant was Barty Crouch, but now Crouch Jr. is worse than useless to Voldemort. That means that Voldemort probably doesn't care at all about Crouch Jr. anymore. I don't think he lost much sleep over it. Now I think the position of most faithful servant is probably between Bellatrix and Snape. Bellatrix said she was trained by Voldemort himself. She also said she was Voldemort's most faithful servant, and he never refuted it. Snape may be on the good side now, (maybe, possibly) but Voldemort may still consider him to be a faithful servant. We don't know where he was when Voldemort rose again, and we can reasonably infer that Voldemort's faithful Death Eater at Hogwarts was Crouch Jr., but it might be Snape as well.

[whizbang121]

Originally Posted by HermioneLuna

That offers my thoughts on why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily, but the question is why did Voldemort tell Harry that Lily didn't have to die. Maybe Voldemort just wasn't thinking when he said it. Maybe he thought Lily was a fool for refusing to step aside and wanted Harry to view Lily that way as well. Voldemort might want Harry to blame Lily for leaving him (Harry) an orphan. If Lily didn't have to die, but chose to anyway, then Voldemort could claim it was Lily's fault she died, not his, even if he was the one who killed her. This probably makes perfectly logical sense in Voldemort's mind. Voldemort didn't know that Lily saved Harry when he made that remark.

Or maybe Lily wasn't part of the larger picture, or the deeper plotline. Then again, maybe Lily and her ancient magic have a "DaVinci Code" element to them.

So what do Lucius, Molly and Snape have in common? Is it a pureblood mania seperate from the activities of the DL? And is Snape, Regulus? Is there something about the tapestry, "Toujours Pur" and Sirius assertion that his family thought Voldemort was on the right track until they found out what he was willing to do to get power, a hint about the true plotline of the story?

Originally Posted by OotP ch 6

"No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first."

Is this why he despised Kreacher? Was Kreacher a part of this deeper "Merovingian style" undercurrent? Kreacher tells Sirius that he was such a disappointment to his mother. Why? Who exactly is this eldest and possibly last son of the house of Black? Is he really dead? Or if Snape is Regulus, where does this leave him?

Then again, maybe Dean Thomas is the last Black, and the Half Blood Prince.

Does this have a lot less to do with Voldemort than we're been led to think?

A long time ago, Masterfroggy suggested that the man Harry saw yelling at the cringing woman in Snape's memory wasn't his father, but his grandfather. He speculated that Snape's mother had married outside the pureblood community and aroused the anger of her father by having a less than pureblood child.

This scenario may also explain why a young Mrs Riddle, abandoned by her muggle husband, had no friends or family to look after her half blood child and was forced to leave him in a muggle orphanage.


Something to think about.

[ECP]

i think the Black's are gone. period. that was part of the drama of Sirius' death, that he was the last of the line. And wouldn't whatever his name was in the picture frame have kept tabs on his family? i think the Blacks are extinct.

then again, didn't Sirius say that Regulus had been killed by some deatheaters?

so snape couldn't be regulus, could he?

[whizbang121]

Whether Snape could be Regulus has been debated and there's more than one school of thought. It's impossible to know for sure until JKR tells us of course, but the interaction between Sirius and Snape in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place looked very much like brothers who despised each other.

If the deeper plot is that the Blacks are a royal family,

Originally Posted by OotP, ch 6

convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal

and Sirius, the Crown Prince, refused to adhere to the family philosophy, first running away to the muggle loving Potters, and then living off his inheritance from his uncle, could there be medieval style court intrigues to eliminate him and everyone associated with him in order to put the second son, (Regulus means Little King) into the first position? And wouldn't it just frost the cake if Dean was Sirius' half blood son?

[Chievrefueil]

I don't think Snape is Regulus. Even though Sirius didn't think much of Regulus's "politics," he seems to speak of him with some affection.

[whizbang121]

Is the pureblood mania related to conspiracies to return a long lost Royal family to power?

If all the Blacks are dead, Draco's position as the oldest male offspring of a Black, also becomes interesting.

[grrliz]

Oh yay, this thread should be fun!

Peter Pettigrew however remained safe in the household of Molly Weasley.

Peter Pettigrew has more power than we think. Was there a secret partnership forged between Molly and Peter? Molly wasn't in the Order the first time round though; how would she have met Peter? Was she in league with the Dark Lord? Did Voldemort make arrangements between the two of them for Peter to stay with the Weasleys once he had ratted out the Potters?

(I can't remember, is it you, whiz, who thinks Molly is in league with Voldemort, or is that someone else?)

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

What's interesting is that first Voldemort tells Harry that his parents "died begging me for mercy..." which is of course a blatant lie and Harry tells him so. But then Voldemort switches tactics; he begins to tell the truth. He says "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ..." We know this to be true from Harry hearing James fighting Voldemort during his Dementor-induced flashbacks in PoA. Voldemort then says "... but your mother needn't have died..." Why switch back to lying at this point? He talks of bravery, how the Potters were brave. He mentions that Lily "was trying to protect you"... she got in the way, she was not part of the plan. Why did she not need to die? He had to kill James to get to Harry; might James not needed to have died either? Lily's death, as phrased by Voldemort, seems accidental, or rather, a mere side effect of his ultimate goal of killing Harry. But we know that Voldemort and his Death Eaters had no qualms about killing tons of people; why not kill the Potters for no reason at all, as an added bonus to killing Harry?

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

I've entertained thoughts that Voldemort doesn't actually have a favourite Death Eater, someone he thinks is most loyal to him. Each one of them is as expendable as the next. Yes, each serves his or her own purpose in turn; Voldemort wouldn't be where is today without Wormtail's clever kidnapping of Bertha Jorkins or Barty Crouch Jr's transformation of the Triwizard Cup into a portkey. But Voldemort never has just one plan;that would be foolhardy at best, downright jeopardizing at worst. If Wormtail and BC Jr hadn't arrived at key moments, Voldemort would simply bide his time until someone else came along. He waited eleven long years before running into Quirrell; surely he can stand to wait longer. As he says in GoF, "I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference." The one thing Voldemort had in spades was time (he doesn't have that now that the Ministry will no doubt have to announce his rebirth).

And so if each Death Eater is very much expendable, what does that do to the idea of who is his most faithful servant? I think Voldemort has a little King Lear in him: he plays his Death Eaters off one another, trying to get them to "prove" their loyalty to him. Doesn't Bellatrix try to claim that she is Voldemort's most loyal servant? (I don't remember where, exactly.) The other Death Eaters fight amongst themselves to be the one to hand the prophecy over to Voldemort; they don't worry about helping those who go down in the fight, they worry about being the one who will recieve the personal thanks of the Dark Lord after handing him the knowledge contained in the orb.

Originally Posted by whizbang121

Whether Snape could be Regulus has been debated and there's more than one school of thought. It's impossible to know for sure until JKR tells us of course, but the interaction between Sirius and Snape in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place looked very much like brothers who despised each other.

If the deeper plot is that the Blacks are a royal family,

and Sirius, the Crown Prince, refused to adhere to the family philosophy, first running away to the muggle loving Potters, and then living off his inheritance from his uncle, could there be medieval style court intrigues to eliminate him and everyone associated with him in order to put the second son, (Regulus means Little King) into the first position?

Hmm. The Merovingian line of kings were established by Childeric in 5th century Gaul. His son, Clovis, united a single kingdom in Gaul and sought to extend its borders and bring more territory under his control. He chased the Visigoths (mudbloods? ) from Gaul. When Clovis died, rather than one, eldest son inheriting the throne, his kingdom was divided into three kingdoms, one for each of his sons. Thus, not only did the firstborn son become king, but so did the subsequent sons. All male heirs in the Merovingian line grew their hair long; it was a link to their ancestry, a way to establish their connection to their royal dynasty. Have we not heard of at least one long haired Black?

Originally Posted by whizbang121

And wouldn't it just frost the cake if Dean was Sirius' half blood son?

I've been hoping for Sirius to have an illegitimate son for ages now (seriously, check out the All About Sirius thread, Arithmancy has great theories about this).

Originally Posted by whizbang121

If all the Blacks are dead, Draco's position as the oldest male offspring of a Black, also becomes interesting.

Yes, exactly! I've never understood that Sirius is the "last Black" since there are still female Blacks in existence, and at least one of them has a male son. The bloodline continues. I wonder if Draco will realise the position this puts him in as well.

[Barbara Kennedy]

You might want these threads for information.
(psst - it's spelled 'agenda')

Why was Lily killed? aka Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily?
How Harry and Voldemort both survived-the “crucial and central” question
Theory on “The Crucial Question”
Which side is Snape really on?V.2
Why are the Malfoys still friends with Snape?
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Will something major be revealed?
Do you think Voldemort knows Snape is a spy?
Snape at Godric’s Hollow?
Severus Snape/Regulus Black
Why did Snape join Voldemort in the first place?
Snape and Sirius
Trust Snape – NEVER!
Will we ever find out the truth about Professor Snape?
Will Snape have to kill for Lord Voldemort?

[HermioneLuna]

Originally Posted by grrliz

Oh yay, this thread should be fun!
Peter Pettigrew has more power than we think. Was there a secret partnership forged between Molly and Peter? Molly wasn't in the Order the first time round though; how would she have met Peter? Was she in league with the Dark Lord? Did Voldemort make arrangements between the two of them for Peter to stay with the Weasleys once he had ratted out the Potters?

Up a few posts, Whiz answered that. Peter was Scabbers.

[whizbang121]

Originally Posted by grrliz

Oh yay, this thread should be fun!
Peter Pettigrew has more power than we think. Was there a secret partnership forged between Molly and Peter? Molly wasn't in the Order the first time round though; how would she have met Peter? Was she in league with the Dark Lord? Did Voldemort make arrangements between the two of them for Peter to stay with the Weasleys once he had ratted out the Potters?

(I can't remember, is it you, whiz, who thinks Molly is in league with Voldemort, or is that someone else?)

You're right there. I did think that Molly was Voldemort's "most trusted servant." But now I suspect there is a plotline that runs deeper than the Harry / Voldemort plot. Sirius says that his family and other pureblood maniacs thought that Voldemort had the right idea until they found out what he was willing to do to get power. Why? Is the deeper plotline about a secret agenda to return a pureblood royal family to power? Is Voldemort a challenge to that agenda? Were all their hopes hanging on the crown prince, Sirius Black?
Sirius' attitude made it necessary to eliminate him and anyone who might have known of his royal identity and the intention to return the royal house to power. With Sirius gone, there are three possible "next in lines" Regulus, if he's alive, Dean Thomas, if he is the half blood son of either Sirius or Regulus, and his half blood status might eliminate him, or Draco Malfoy.

Originally Posted by grrliz

What's interesting is that first Voldemort tells Harry that his parents "died begging me for mercy..." which is of course a blatant lie and Harry tells him so. But then Voldemort switches tactics; he begins to tell the truth. He says "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ..." We know this to be true from Harry hearing James fighting Voldemort during his Dementor-induced flashbacks in PoA. Voldemort then says "... but your mother needn't have died..." Why switch back to lying at this point?...
He mentions that Lily "was trying to protect you"... she got in the way, she was not part of the plan.

Maybe she was not part of Voldemort's plan.

Originally Posted by grrliz

Why did she not need to die? He had to kill James to get to Harry; might James not needed to have died either? Lily's death, as phrased by Voldemort, seems accidental, or rather, a mere side effect of his ultimate goal of killing Harry. But we know that Voldemort and his Death Eaters had no qualms about killing tons of people; why not kill the Potters for no reason at all, as an added bonus to killing Harry?

I don't see where Harry fits in yet, except that he was important in the chessgame. He took out Voldemort and Voldemort, a half blood, was probably seen as a threat to the plans to return the Royal House to power. They still need Harry because Voldemort is still a threat. But the question that JKR posed concerning how both Voldemort and Harry survived in Godric's Hollow may have something to do with Snape, the racist potions master.

Originally Posted by grrliz

I've entertained thoughts that Voldemort doesn't actually have a favourite Death Eater, someone he thinks is most loyal to him. Each one of them is as expendable as the next...

The one thing Voldemort had in spades was time (he doesn't have that now that the Ministry will no doubt have to announce his rebirth).

And so if each Death Eater is very much expendable, what does that do to the idea of who is his most faithful servant?

Or does he even have one at all? Who does he think is his most faithful servant? Voldemort mentioned that his MFS was at Hogwarts. Snape? But I'm thinking that Snape, Molly, Malfoy and probably Pettigrew are part of a conspiracy that is larger than the threat posed by Voldemort.

Originally Posted by grrliz

I think Voldemort has a little King Lear in him: he plays his Death Eaters off one another, trying to get them to "prove" their loyalty to him.

That's a good point. Interesting ........ [quote=grrliz]
Hmm. The Merovingian line of kings were established by Childeric in 5th century Gaul. His son, Clovis, united a single kingdom in Gaul and sought to extend its borders and bring more territory under his control. He chased the Visigoths (mudbloods? ) from Gaul. When Clovis died, rather than one, eldest son inheriting the throne, his kingdom was divided into three kingdoms, one for each of his sons. Thus, not only did the firstborn son become king, but so did the subsequent sons. All male heirs in the Merovingian line grew their hair long; it was a link to their ancestry, a way to establish their connection to their royal dynasty. Have we not heard of at least one long haired Black? The Merovingian line was also believed by some to be descended from Christ through the son born to Mary Magdalene. The Line was not just Royal, but "divine." The stories go that the Merovingian heir is still known to adherents and there is the belief that some day .....

Originally Posted by grrliz

I've been hoping for Sirius to have an illegitimate son for ages now (seriously, check out the All About Sirius thread, Arithmancy has great theories about this).

Well, if Sirius is the father of Dean Thomas, he married the boy's mother, but deserted her to protect them from Voldemort who was after him.

Originally Posted by grrliz

Yes, exactly! I've never understood that Sirius is the "last Black" since there are still female Blacks in existence, and at least one of them has a male son. The bloodline continues. I wonder if Draco will realise the position this puts him in as well.

Terrifying.

Originally Posted by Barbara Kennedy

You might want these threads for information.
(psst - it's spelled 'agenda')

Thanks for the spelling tip. I noticed it in the middle of my last post, after I calmed down. The Red Sox won again.


GO RED SOX !!!!!!!

Expecto Patronum!

Originally Posted by Barbara Kennedy

Why was Lily killed? aka Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily?
How Harry and Voldemort both survived-the “crucial and central” question
Theory on “The Crucial Question”
Which side is Snape really on?V.2
Why are the Malfoys still friends with Snape?
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Will something major be revealed?
Do you think Voldemort knows Snape is a spy?
Snape at Godric’s Hollow?
Severus Snape/Regulus Black
Why did Snape join Voldemort in the first place?
Snape and Sirius
Trust Snape – NEVER!
Will we ever find out the truth about Professor Snape?
Will Snape have to kill for Lord Voldemort?

I'll be up all night. But no game tomorrow night. I'll see what's going on.

[grrliz]

Originally Posted by HermioneLuna

Up a few posts, Whiz answered that. Peter was Scabbers.

Heh, I know, I read PoA. I was referring to pre-Potters death, pre-Peter-as-Sacbbers that he and Molly might have forged a relationship.

[whizbang121]

Maybe. Wish I knew.

Scabbers is interesting. Someone asked JKR if Lupin, Potter, Black and Lupin were all in Gryffindor, and she said yes. Notice that Lupin was asked twice and Pettigrew not at all. So we still can't be sure about him. On the face of it, if courage is a Gryffindor trait and self protection a Slytherin characteristic, Pettigrew looks like Slytherin material. That would be an interesting situation. I have a feeling that Pettigrew joined Voldemort for just the reasons given, it looked like he was going to win. Was he approached by racists to work for them in Voldemort's ranks? Or was he manipulated, just another chess piece on the board? Either way, after Voldemort fell, the racists gave him shelter until Sirius and Remus found him out. But he scampered back to the DL again, hoping to pick the winning/strongest side. Pettigrew is gambling a lot whatever the storyline is.

[HermioneLuna]

Originally Posted by grrliz

Heh, I know, I read PoA. I was referring to pre-Potters death, pre-Peter-as-Sacbbers that he and Molly might have forged a relationship.

Sorry. I didn't even remember that Peter was living with the Weasleys at all until Whiz reminded me that Peter was Scabbers. Guess I was happy someone else forget this fact. Though you clearly didn't.

[grrliz]

Originally Posted by whizbang121

Or was he manipulated, just another chess piece on the board? Either way, after Voldemort fell, the racists gave him shelter until Sirius and Remus found him out. But he scampered back to the DL again, hoping to pick the winning/strongest side. Pettigrew is gambling a lot whatever the storyline is.

Only a pawn in their game... but wait, the racists gave him shelter? The Weasleys? They're notorious blood traitors, are they not? Except for Molly, who knows about her, especially if she was secretly and purposely harbouring Peter for years .

[whizbang121]

Yup. The Weasleys are notorious muggle lovers. But Molly, who told Ginny and Hermione about a love potion she made as a girl, is constantly at odds with Arthur. The PoA argument in the Leaky Cauldron about whether to tell Harry that Sirius Black was after him.

Originally Posted by Poa, pg 65, sch

If the Knight Bus hadn't picked him up, I'm prepared to bet he would have been dead before the Ministry found him."

"But he's not dead, he's fine, so what's the point - "

Molly, they say Sirius Black's mad, and maybe he is, but he was clever enough to escape from Azkaban, and that's supposed to be impossible. It's been three weeks, and no one's seen hide nor hair of him, and I don't care what Fudge keeps telling the Daily Prophet, we're no nearer catching Black than inventing self-spelling wands. The only thing we know for sure is what Black's after - "

"But Harry will be perfectly safe at Hogwarts."

"We thought Azkaban was perfectly safe. If Black can break out of Azkaban, he can break into Hogwarts."

"But No one's really sure that Black's after Harry - "

There was a thud on wood, and Harry was sure Mr. Weasley had banged his fist on the table.

"Molly, how many times do I have to tell you? They didn't report it in the press because Fudge wanted it kept quiet, but Fudge went out to Azkaban the night Black escaped. The guards told Fudge that Black's been talking in his sleep for a while now. Always the same words: 'He's at Hogwarts ... he's at Hogwarts.' Black is deranged, Molly, and he wants Harry dead. If you ask me, he thinks murdering Harry will bring You-know-Who back to power. Black lost everything the night Harry stopped You-Know-Who, and he's had twelve years alone in Azkaban to brood on that...."

There was a silence. Harry leaned still closer to the door, desperate to hear more.

"Well, Arthur, you must do what you think is right. But you're forgetting Albus Dumbledore. I don't think anything could hurt Harry at Hogwarts while Dumbledore's headmaster."

Why is Molly so sure that Harry is safe at Hogwarts? And why isn't she sure that Black is after Harry? What does she know that Arthur doesn't?

In PoA, it was Fudge who Arthur says insisted on treating Harry like a child and keeping him in the dark. Molly agrees.

In OotP, it is apparently Dumbledore who doesn't want Harry to know any more than he has to. Molly interpretation of this is Harry, and her own children, should know nothing! Why not? They are a bright bunch. Is she afraid they'll figure something out?

In the kitchen argument in OotP Molly is particularly harsh to Sirius, in spite of the fact that everyone else in the room agrees with Sirius that telling Harry only what he needs to know is more than nothing at all.

Originally Posted by ootP, ch 5

"Nearly time for bed, I think," said Mrs. Weasley with a yawn.

"Not just yet, Molly" said Sirius, pushing away his empty plate and turning to look at Harry. "You know, I'm surprised at you. I thought the first thing you'd do when you got here would be to start asking questions about Voldemort."

The atmosphere in the room changed with the rapidity Harry associated with the arrival of Dementors. Where seconds before it had been sleepily relaxed, it was now alert, even tense. A frisson had gone around the table at the mention of Voldemort's name. Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary.

"I did!" said Harry indignantly. "I asked Ron and Hermione but they said we're not allowed in the Order, so -"

"And they're quite right," said Mrs. Weasley. "You're too young."

She was sitting bolt upright in her chair, her fists clenched on its arms, every trace of drowsiness gone.

"Since when did someone have to be in the Order of the Phoenix to ask questions?" asked Sirius. "Harry's been trapped in that Muggle house for a month. He's got the right to know what's been happen-"

"Hang on!" interrupted George loudly.

"How come Harry gets his questions answered?" said Fred angrily.

"We've been trying to get stuff out of you for a month and you haven't told us a single stinking thing!" said George.

"You're too young, you're not in the Order," said Fred, in a high-pitched voice that sounded uncannily like his mother's. "Harry's not even of age!"

"It's not my fault you haven't been told what the Order's doing," said Sirius calmly, "that's your parents' decision. Harry, on the other hand -"

"It's not down to you to decide what's good for Harry!" said Mrs. Weasley sharply. The expression on her normally kind face looked dangerous. "You haven't forgotten what Dumbledore said, I suppose?"

"Which bit?" Sirius asked politely, but with the air of a man readying himself for a fight.

"The bit about not telling Harry more than he needs to know," said Mrs. Weasley, placing a heavy emphasis on the last three words.

Ron, Hermione, Fred and George's heads swivelled from Sirius to Mrs. Weasley as though they were following a tennis rally. Ginny was kneeling amid a pile of abandoned Butterbeer corks, watching the conversation with her mouth slightly open. Lupin's eyes were fixed on Sirius.

"I don't intend to tell him more than he needs to know, Molly," said Sirius. "But as he was the one who saw Voldemort come back" (again, there was a collective shudder around the table at the name) "he has more right than most to -"

"He's not a member of the Order of the Phoenix!" said Mrs. Weasley. "He's only fifteen and -"

"And he's dealt with as much as most in the Order," said Sirius, "and more than some."

"No one's denying what he's done!" said Mrs. Weasley, her voice rising, her fists trembling on the arms of her chair. "But he's still -"

"He's not a child!" said Sirius impatiently.

"He's not an adult either!" said Mrs. Weasley, the colour rising in her cheeks. "He's not James, Sirius!"

"I'm perfectly clear who he is, thanks, Molly," said Sirius coldly.

"I'm not sure you are!" said Mrs. Weasley. "Sometimes, the way you talk about him, it's as though you think you've got your best friend back!"

"What's wrong with that?" said Harry.

"What's wrong, Harry, is that you are not your father, however much you might look like him!" said Mrs. Weasley, her eyes still boring into Sirius. "You are still at school and adults responsible for you should not forget it!"

"Meaning I'm an irresponsible godfather?" demanded Sirius, his voice rising.

"Meaning you have been known to act rashly, Sirius, which is why Dumbledore keeps reminding you to stay at home and -"

"We'll leave my instructions from Dumbledore out of this, if you please!" said Sirius loudly.

"Arthur!" said Mrs. Weasley, rounding on her husband. "Arthur, back me up!"

Mr. Weasley did not speak at once. He took off his glasses and cleaned them slowly on his robes, not looking at his wife. Only when he had replaced them carefully on his nose did he reply.

"Dumbledore knows the position has changed, Molly. He accepts that Harry will have to be filled in, to a certain extent, now that he is staying at Headquarters."

"Yes, but there's a difference between that and inviting him to ask whatever he likes!"

"Personally," said Lupin quietly, looking away from Sirius at last, as Mrs. Weasley turned quickly to him, hopeful that finally she was about to get an ally, "I think it better that Harry gets the facts -not all the facts, Molly, but the general picture - from us, rather than a garbled version from... others."

His expression was mild, but Harry felt sure Lupin, at least, knew that some Extendable Ears had survived Mrs. Weasley's purge.

"Well," said Mrs. Weasley, breathing deeply and looking around the table for support that did not come, "well... I can see I'm going to be overruled. I'll just say this: Dumbledore must have had his reasons for not wanting Harry to know too much, and speaking as someone who has Harry's best interests at heart -"

"He's not your son," said Sirius quietly.

"He's as good as," said Mrs. Weasley fiercely. "Who else has he got?"

"He's got me!"

"Yes," said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling, "the thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?"

Sirius started to rise from his chair.

"Molly, you're not the only person at this table who cares about Harry," said Lupin sharply. "Sirius, sit down."

Mrs. Weasley's lower lip was trembling. Sirius sank slowly back into his chair, his face white.

"I think Harry ought to be allowed a say in this," Lupin continued, "he's old enough to decide for himself."

"I want to know what's been going on," Harry said at once.

He did not look at Mrs. Weasley. He had been touched by what she had said about his being as good as a son, but he was also impatient with her mollycoddling. Sirius was right, he was not a child.

"Very well," said Mrs. Weasley, her voice cracking. "Ginny - Ron - Hermione - Fred - George - I want you out of this kitchen, now."

There was instant uproar.

"We're of age!" Fred and George bellowed together.

"If Harry's allowed, why can't I?" shouted Ron.

"Mum, I want to hear!" wailed Ginny.

"NO!" shouted Mrs. Weasley, standing up, her eyes overbright. "I absolutely forbid -"

"Molly, you can't stop Fred and George," said Mr. Weasley wearily. "They are of age."

They're still at school."

"But they're legally adults now," said Mr. Weasley, in the same tired voice.

Mrs. Weasley was now scarlet in the face.

"I - oh, all right then, Fred and George can stay, but Ron -"

"Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!" said Ron hotly. "Won't - won't you?" he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's eyes.

For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as they looked at each other.

"Course I will," Harry said.

Ron and Hermione beamed.

"Fine!" shouted Mrs. Weasley. "Fine! Ginny - BED!"

What is with her? Arthur tells her right in the beginning that Dumbledore understands Harry must be filled in to some extent, but she's still raving that he must be kept completely in the dark. And her attitude toward Sirius is more than a little interesting. The only other person who gets that kind of a rise out of Sirius is Snape. The presence of Lupin and Mr Weasley prevented this from getting really out of hand. What does Mrs Weasley know about Sirius that the others do not? Was it Snape who initially started planting the dream about the corridor in Harry's head? And was Molly in on it? Is this a plot to kill Sirius that Voldemort, another chesspiece, was drawn into?

[Lochious]

That is interesting proof! Normally, Molly is the one who is always worrying about Harry's well-being. But her and Sirius are related! So she just might have known more about the stich then she told Arthur. As for Snape and Sirius being brothers...it's a catchy theory for sure, but think back to when they were younger- going to Hogwarts at the same time. Wouldn't people have known they were brothers then?

[Kimmetje]

Let me just answer the questions.

What is the underlying plot of this series? What's going on beneath the surface?
-I think Snape is the missing death eater who is a spy for LV (why else so buddyish with Malfoy) and for DD, but both think he's on their side. Snape does this all to save his own skin.

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?
-He wanted to finish the job and maybe take HP's mom with him as she was one of the brightest witches of her time and he might have wanted her on his side.

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?
-Lucius Malfoy or Bellatrix Lestrange as both are really high up the ladder by DE standard and they lead the other's on missions.

And how did both Harry and Voldemort survive the death curse in Godric's Hollow?
-On my opinion for this you want to read the Changeling Hypothesis.

Sorry to say this, but Barbara Kennedy linked some threads in the above which totally take over the whole thread as in that all links do what this thread does though now we have it all together.