Underground Lake #1 - Lost Day, Pt. 1 - Why It Took So Long

[navygreen]

Discussion for the Underground Lake #1 - The Lost Day, Part 1 - Why It Took So Long by Brandon Ford.

[ccrater]

If Dumbledore did the Fidelius charm on Peter Pettigrew. Why didn't Dumbledore tell everyone of Sirius's innocense?

i thought about that too- but then sirius wasnt convicted of telling the secret- he was convicted of killing peter(which happened the next day). on which the ministry has no evidence of his innocense.

I think the Fidelius charm can also be used to hide people as well. This would mean that everyone would be able to see the Potter's house, but they would not see James and Lily.

[Musereader]

Why does there have to be a missing day? If the first thing we know is that its a tuesday, then that night McGonagall says that Voldemort was defeated last night i.e. Monday night, Dumbledore tells her that Hagrid is bringing the boy to Privet Drive, when I read the book I thought that Hagrid must have been sent to Godrics hollow as soon as Dumbledore knew about the incident, that is on the Monday night. The HPL mentions that McGonagall encountered Hagrid who told her that Dumbledore will be going to Number 4 privet drive and come to the conclusion that this is after he has been to Godric's Hollow, I do not know what quote they have used to get this info but can this not be as he is on his way to get Harry?

[meghana]

Musereader,

You bring up good points. However, I want to state the following as evidence:
1) We know that Hogsmeade is the only ALL-wizard town in Britian.
2) Godric's Hollow is a town and that's where the Potter's where stating.
3) The Potters' house was blown up that Halloween.
4) Hagrid got to the place before Muggles began to swarm around the house.
5) McGonagall showed up at the house on Nov. 1st. If she found out while Hagrid was on the way, why didn't she show up on Oct. 31st?

The question which I think needs to be asked is:
Does the Fidelus Charm stay on when the place in question is blown up? My POV: yes, everyone can now see it or the spells wear off after some time. If they couldn't, why would Hagrid hurry so?

Also, if he met McGonagall (after picking up Harry) -- and McGonagall was at Hogwarts -- then Hagrid during that day was with Harry at Hogwarts. That means he was flying all over the U.K. during Nov 1st.

ccrater -- I don't think DD knew that the Secret-Keeper had been changed. They all though it was Sirius.

Meghana

[Musereader]

Our next fact comes a day later. Tuesday, news spreads throughout that Voldemort is dead at the hands of baby Harry. Almost twenty-four hours AFTER the Potters' death that Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, Hagrid is dispatched by Dumbledore to go to Godric's Hollow and get Harry. Hagrid retrieves Harry from the ruins (noting the fresh scar on his forehead). Meanwhile, Sirius Black goes to Pettigrew's hiding place to check on him and instead finds him missing. Sirius immediately heads to Godric's Hollow on his flying motorcycle to find the ruins of the house and baby Harry in Hagrid's arms (PoA, 365). After some argument, Sirius allows Hagrid to take Harry and offers Hagrid his motorcycle (PoA, 206-7). Hagrid takes Harry to Dumbledore late Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning, where he is then left in the 'care' (and I use the term loosely) of the Dursleys.

I disagree with this paragraph

Our facts are
A) late Monday night the Potters are killed and Voldy destroyed. (Night is taken as from 9pm)
B) Early Tuesday morning McGonagall turns up at privet drive (has to be around 8am or earlier because Vernon is going to work and the work day in England starts at 9am). Who says she did not have to look for the place? perhaps she took some time to find it? A few hours maybe, hence her having a map and reading the Privet drive sign in cat form
C) Tuesday morning to evening - All of the wizarding world know what happened and are celebrating.
D) late Tuesday night Dumbledore,then Hagrid with Harry turn up, Harry is left on the doorstep.
E) Early Wednesday morning Harry is found on the doorstep by Petunia.

For B) to have occured Hagrid MUST have been despatched before 8am. By no stretch of the imagination is 8am Tuesday morning 24 hours after 9pm monday night so in those 11 hours then
1) Dumbledore finds out (by magical means) that the Potters and Voldy are dead
2) Hagrid is sent to get Harry
3) Hagrid tells Mcgonagall where DD is going to be - I found the quote btw - he does not have had to meet her in person, perhaps he did the magical equivalent of phoning her?

Any way the whole thing turns on when Hagrid gets Harry from the wreckage of the house this could happen after event B) but I do not think so because it must happen before dawn or "before the Muggles started swarmin' around" NB. Somehow somebody (perhaps Voldy or Peter) broke the fidelius charm completly, it must have been broken at some point, how else would there be 'muggles swarming all over it'?. Also Hagrid meets Sirius who gives him the motorbike on tuesday morning, perhaps he spent some time with Sirius - maybe they went somewhere?



The only 'missing time' and the question that the Harry Potter Lexicon asks, is where was Hadgid with Harry between tuesday morning and tuesday night?

[mark_evens]

Musereader,
The 24 hours is come from the time between the Potters death and Harry's arrival at the Dursley's. Maybe it's 23 hours, maybe 22, but it's a close enought to call a whole day.

Hagrid picked up Harry on Hallowen night, and appeared at the Dursleys THE NEXT NIGHT. Is this hard to understand?

What I find most interesting about this is that most everybody who has read the books has missed it entirely. And even now, most of the people who realize that JKR has dooped us only know because of Brandon's article.

So what happened? There are many theories out there, (some are really out there,) so I'm not going to say anything about it. But most of us realize that something did happen and are waiting for July 16 in hopes that we'll get some answers, or at least some more clues.

[Musereader]

an ENTIRE DAY passes between the deaths of Lily and James Potter and the discovery of Harry by Hagrid and his safe delivery to Dumbledore. That's a long period of time for a baby to just be sitting in a pile of flaming rubble.

See this is the bit I am disputing Ok I see 24 Hours Between discovery by Hagrid and delivery to Dumbledore, but that is probably because DD told Hagrid not to show up at Privet Drive untill he was ready, I do not see Harry sitting in a pile of flaming rubble for 24 hours. See what I am getting at? Mark evans you don't seem to pick this up either, you seem to think the same as me, but that was not what BRANDON was getting at, Brandon was saying 24 hours before he was discovered K?

[mark_evens]

DOH!!!

My bad Mr. Muse. Brandon does claim that it was 24 hours before Hagrid was dispatched. But you are right, we don't know that for sure. We only know that (about) 24 hours passed from the Potters' destruction to Harry's arrival at the Dursleys. We are under the impression that Hagrid arrives directly from the Potters' house, but we don't know for sure. What we do know for sure is that JKR likes us to be under the impression of a lot of things which arn't actually true.
I'm just looking forward to what is actually going to happen.

[regi]

In my opinion Dumbledore got to know Potters are dead, and sent a message to everyone in OoP via Fawkes or another. That is how Sirius got to know about it and went to Godric's Hollow and met Hagrid. I think that happened on Monday evening, right after the event. Then Harry stayed either with Hagrid or w someone else till Tursday night. I am sure Dumbledore examined Harry before leaving him to Dursley's doorstep. I am not sure when exactly this happened. Maybe D. examined Harry, sealed the blood charm and arranged some other things on Tuesday while Hagrid was babysitting Harry...Then in the evening they all met in Privet Drive...
I am sure there are many points I am missing but that is how I believe some hings have happened...

[Wickedgirl86]

What do we know for a fact were the exact events of the famous Monday? In Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone, we learn in "Chapter 1 - The Boy Who Lived" that the day after Voldemort's "death" was a Tuesday: "When Mr. and Mrs. Dursley woke up on the dull, gray Tuesday our story starts... (2)." Thus the grisly events at Godric's Hollow take place on a Monday.

The last time I checked, Monday and Tuesday were separated by 24 hours.

[Musereader]

Monday 9am to Tuesday 9am is 24 hours.

But McGonagall said that the Potters died 'last night' so anytime 8pm to 12midnight, and she turned up at Privet drive 'early in the morning' as Vernon was off to work so - 7am to 9am so there is a maximum of 13 hours there and probably more like 10 hours between our two facts and Hagrid MUST have been despatched BEFORE our second fact (~8am tuesday) AND before the muggles started 'swarming all over' (presumably dawn ~6am)

The question that Brandon asked was why he was sitting in 'flaming rubble' for 24 hours - but that is not possible.
Now the question that Brandon SHOULD have asked is what happened in the time between Hagrid rescuing Harry (possibly as early as midnight or as late as 6am tuesday) and the time he was delivered to Dumbledore (midnight?). He did not see DD in that 24 hours and he would have had to feed the baby, and at some point he met Sirius who gave him the bike. But why did JKR have the Potters die and the Dursleys not recieve Harry untill 36 hours later? Why not deliver him on the tuesday morning straight after the Potters died? Should this lead us to the conclusion that there was a lot to do before Petunia could take guardianship of Harry?

[Wickedgirl86]

Ok so perhappes it wasn't a full 24 hours, HOWEVER with all the charms set apon the Potters house it still would have taking some time to remove. Maybe the question should be why is Harry alive after the house falls? I mean so the curse didn't kill him off but I'm sure not every lives after a house falls on them. Ie: The Wicked Witch of the East in the Wizard of Oz. So that means Harry cheated death twice when he was only one years old. Perhaps there's more to him than we think.

[Musereader]

From what we know about the AK curse it seems unlikely that it destroyed the house so I have thought of possiblities of what did.
1) James did duel with Voldemort so perhaps during the duel
2) Backlash from when Voldemort died - the spells that made him immortal may have created an shockwave of some kind
3) Peter Pettigrew, he may have been with Voldemort at the time, could he have destroyed the house after seeing his master be destroyed

As for how he survived the house falling around him, well if you live in a country prone to earthquakes you learn that people can survive collapsing houses by sheltering undre doorways or tables etc. (perhaps somebody who knows a bit more about that can elabarate, I mean how many earthquakes are there in england?) plus the house was almost destroyed he could have been in a surviving room, was Lilly holding him? I imagined that she was standing in the doorway to his room blocking Voldemorts way with Harry in the crib behind her. And another thing, we would have to know the kind of damage the house suffered, cos the effects of an explosion within the house would probably look quite different to it being blown down by a Hurricane. I did briefly consider that Lilly may have run outside with Harry but I don't think so.

Fedelius Charm - could have been broken by Voldemort or Peter, or if the secret is not there anymore, ie when the Potters died or the house got destroyed, there is nothing left for the spell to be attatched to so would it not go away?

[misslauri]

I thought the Fidelus Charm was cast on the Potters, not their house. I think it can be cast on anything. In Ootp, we literally can't see 12 Grimmauld place until reading Dumbledore's note, because the charm is on the building. In PoA, when the Fidelus charm is being explained, someone says something like Voldemort could have his face pressed against their parlor window and still not find them, which would lead me to believe that it was the Potters themselves that vanished, not the house.

Also, we saw in Ootp that the secret keeper can reveal the secret to anyone s/he wants, and they alone will be able to find the hidden thing, and the spell will not be broken. After all, headquarters was still hidden after Harry read the note, it just wasn't hidden to Harry.

[AurorChick]

MuseReader, you bring up a point that has sent me racing after a theory -- "Peter Pettigrew, he may have been with Voldemort at the time, could he have destroyed the house after seeing his master be destroyed"

I've been troubled by the way Harry was ever found. If he was in the Potter's house in Godric's Hollow, he would have been protected by the Fidelus Charm. Even if his parents had been killed, he and the house should have been unseeable by everyone but the Secret Keeper (Peter Pettigrew) or those to whom PP had told the location. I'm starting to think that PP, in a moment of remorse/humanity destroyed the house specifically to allow Harry to be found.

I believe that no one (besides Voldemort) had been given the location of the house. We know that no one believed PP to be the secret keeper. We also know that if anyone knew, they would have to have been told by the secret keeper. Therefore, no one knew where the Potters were! It's possible that friends of the Potters would have known that they lived in Godric's Hollow, but the house would have remained invisible to them, unless PP told them the specific location.

So, Brandon's timeline fits beautifully. The house would have had to become something less than a house (I believe) for the charm to be broken. Peter recognises that Voldemort has been beaten and that baby Harry is sitting in a house in which he will never be found. Either he regrets the death of someone who once befriended him (James) or feels sorry for a babe, or he decides to play both sides of the fence in order to put himself in the best possible light and destroys the house. This can be read by the side of the Death Eaters as an action destructive toward the Potters or by the side of the Order as a covert means to make Harry findable.

At this point, I create a possible storyline: Dumbledore is, in some way, in contact with the Potters (mirrors, maybe ). He finds that, after news of Voldemort's downfall (news spread by whom?), he can no longer contact either of the Potters. He sets in motion what he hopes will be a rescue of Harry - he sends Hagrid to Godric's Hollow (probably just with direction to watch for Harry) and Prof M decides to look into the place that James and Lily's son will be going. Once the house is totally destroyed, Hagrid finds Harry, sends an owl to Dumbledore (or makes a mirror call, or ?), Dumbledore then tells Hagrid to meet him at 4 Privet Dr.

This idea also nicely foreshadows what I think will be a major betrayal of Voldemort by Peter Pettigrew. This is supported by the debt that he owes Harry - perhaps he feels a double debt of responsiblity for Harry's being orphaned and for Harry sparing his life in the Shrieking SHack.

[mark_evens]

There are a couple of really good points you made chick. I was thinking that maybe getting around the Fidelious charm was what caused the delay. I don't think that any charm is unbreakable. But then... why send Hagrid, who can barely even do magic, to break an almost unbreakable charm.

Another good point is the role that Wormtail will play in the downfall of Voldy. I think that the fact that he betrayed his best friends to their death will be mirrored by the betrayal of Voldy. I kinda new something like that was going to happen after Dumbledore told Harry that the dept Wormtail owed Harry was very deep, but I didn't see how perfectly it would mirror a future betrayal of Voldy. It fits beautifully. I'm really curious how JKR is going to bring it all together.

I'm really curious about the Fidelus charm and Sirius's house. If kreatcher went to give information to the Malfoy's couldn't they just infer where the HQ was? I guess they wouldn't be able to see it, but what if they surrounded it or something?

[ID824]

Originally Posted by AurorChick

This idea also nicely foreshadows what I think will be a major betrayal of Voldemort by Peter Pettigrew. This is supported by the debt that he owes Harry - perhaps he feels a double debt of responsiblity for Harry's being orphaned and for Harry sparing his life in the Shrieking SHack.

Makes you wonder if there's a connection between Peter Pettigrew owing Harry a favor and the Advanced Potions cover of book 6.

[gabrielle_004]

Interesting.....I don't agree completely, I do believe that I have to go back and re-read the first two chapters of P.S. But the whole Fidelious charm is definately something to look into. Because if the charm can also work on humans, and only Peter P. was the secret keeper, then there would be a problem in "finding" Harry, (not just finding him in rubble, but seeing him at all)