Underground Lake #10 - Prophecies and the Marauder's Map: Voldemort vs. Tom Riddle

[navygreen]

Discussion for the Underground Lake #10 - Prophecies and the Marauder's Map - Voldemort vs. Tom Riddle by Brandon Ford.

[stu]

well for starters you have to think about wher the map came from, it was in fact 4 students who, using their own experiences and Mischief developed the map, (Mischief managed), they did not know that the chamber of secrets even exisited (as it seems hermione is the only one who reads hogwarts, a history) remember that the last
time it was opened was still thirty some odd years before the maraunders were there.
with the amount of layers to this story, jo would not let something as easy as a map tell you where the chamber lies!
and as for fred and george not realizing that peter petigrew was always with ron, when they used the map it was when they were nicking food or sneaking into hogsmeade for butterbeer, which would most likely be at night, so with the common room and dormitries full it would make it hard to discern individuals, they were most likley concerned about the coridor in front of them as they have no invisibilty cloak

[Byrum]

I think the map is a stroke of magical genuis. I doubt I could even draw a map Hogwarts let alone make it recognise people, their positions and who they are. The editorial was good also as it pointed out that not everything in the books is perfect. Of course I'm not blaming JKR, in fact it brings a sense of realism to the creation of the map that the Marauders were not 'perfect' wizards, especially after the mistaken identity of the Crouch's.

What does surprise me is that the Weasley twins never did pick up on Pettigrew. And also brings up the point on whether the map works outside of Hogwarts. Does it go blank, stop moving after the edge of the grounds? The map is definately the most 'close and yet so far' magical artefact that we have come across in terms of knowledge of its powers and boundaries.

[Butterbeerjunky]

"Or perhaps the prophecy is even older; perhaps it was found IN THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS!! "

Interesting...I think it's time for JKR to bring back the Chamber of Secrets...

The Chamber of Secrets may just have more than one within it's walls

[1hp2]

Part of this editorial assumes that everyone know everybody. 1st, DD said that few people knew that the bright boy named Tom Riddle became Lord Voldemort. So, why would the Weasley twins see "Tom Riddle:" on the map and think Voldemort. He could be one of hundreds of students. I doubt the Weasely twins know everyone and there names. We know for a fact Harry doesn't (doesn't know the names of all the girls who ask him to the Yule Ball) so I doubt Geroge and Fred no everyones names. This can go for Peter Pettigrew too. They might have heard of him before book 3 (unlike Harry) but can we expect they would remember him vividly???

Also the author of the editorial says the maps shows Hogwarts and the ground that the Maurader's explored. I doubt they were ever in the Chamber of Secrets. Like many of the students during Harry's time, they might not have even known about it.

Also, Tom Riddle happens upon a prophecy about himself? What while he is just strolling in the Department of Ministries as a boy (not a pwerful Voldemort)? And as to LV and Riddle being to seperate entities, not according to JKR. And since she is the writer I'm goin with her on that one.

All in all this was too crazy to be even considered speculation.

[Chermione]

I agree that the twins wouldn't have seen the Chamber b/c it's simply not on the map as those who created it didn't know it was there. I'm sure it doesn't show the room of requirement. Unless maybe it's in use at the time?

I also agree about Peter Pettigrew, if they saw on the map that name next to Ron, they'd assume it was just a friend. At night, they were too concerned with what mischief they were doing to see that Ron was tucked in properly.

Their goals were simply selfish mischief.

Also about the map, what about in POA, when Lupin sees Harry, Hermione and Ron going to Hagrid's that night. The future Harry and Hermione were out there too. Wouldn't Lupin have seen 2 Harry's and 2 Hermione's?

Anyway...

In the editoria it states that Voldermort lost his body the first time when his curse rebounded off Harry. Which is not true. When Tom Riddle killed his father and step mother, HIS own body was also found with them. Top of page 2 of GOF, "...the maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead."
How did he do that?
A little more down the page... "Elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle had been rich, snobbish, and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom, had been if anything, worse."

He had to have changed bodies then.

I did think the thought of LV going after Trelawney for the prophecy was a good one. I didn't think of that. Also, how DD had defeated a dark wizard just as LV is begining his reign. Probably part of his fear of DD, knowing he defeated a dark wizard once before.

Also, many people take prophecies the wrong way. DD could be wrong about Harry and LV being the two that MUST be in the prophecy. I am not fond of the Neville rumor myself. But it's still naive to think DD is always correct.

[mark_evens]

Chermione said,

When Tom Riddle killed his father and step mother, HIS own body was also found with them. Top of page 2 of GOF, "...the maid had entered the drawing room to find all three Riddles dead."
How did he do that?
A little more down the page... "Elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle had been rich, snobbish, and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom, had been if anything, worse."

But Brandons wrote:

According to the first chapter of Goblet of Fire, in 1944 a teenage Tom Riddle returned to the Riddle House and murdered his father and grandparents.

Either of these interpretations can be true. I never thought about his before, but JKR does not clearly state which "Tom" it was. Of course we don't think that it was Tom Jr. that was found dead, because Tom Jr. did the killin'.
LV may have killed his father and grandparents out of spite, or to fullfill a yet unknown prophesy. But what if it was his body that was found, and not his fathers? I see a possiblity here.

This may have been part of the "dangerous transformations" from Tom Riddle Jr. to Lord Voldemort. If he found some way to discard his body that he was born into, (which by all natural laws must decay and fall apart) and somehow create a new magical body to inhabit (which we know is possible from the end of GoF) that does not decay, then he would definatly go for it, with his immortality complex and all that, not to mention that he would be discarding his "half-blood" body for something more "pure." Murdering his family may have been part this, or part of a previous prophesy. We just don't know.

Now to 1hp2's doubts,

As far as a previous prophesy, this is entirely possible, also entirely speculation, but possible. The timeing of the events is alluring. Also, if it was a prophesy that got him started down this path, the fact that there was a prophesy about his end would be even more important to him. (Not that a prophesy about his end wouldn't be important in the first place.)

Also, Tom Riddle happens upon a prophecy about himself? What while he is just strolling in the Department of Ministries as a boy (not a pwerful Voldemort)?

Tom Riddle need not be in the Dept. of Mysteries to hear a prophesy. It's already been established in other editorials that prophesies are, for some reason or another, spoken in the presence of individuals that the prophesy pertains to or can influence matters greatly. Someone could have spoken a prophesy to young Riddle, or he could have found one in the chamber of secrests. Maybe there is a pensive down there. It could be a number of different ways.

And as to LV and Riddle being to seperate entities, not according to JKR. And since she is the writer I'm goin with her on that one.

Don't forget that scene in Dumbledore's office where he pulls out the little metel instrument, which spinns around, a snake comes out, splits in two, and what not. Dumbledore says, "Yes, yes, but in essence divided," or something like that.

[ID824]

Originally Posted by mark_evens

Don't forget that scene in Dumbledore's office where he pulls out the little metel instrument, which spinns around, a snake comes out, splits in two, and what not. Dumbledore says, "Yes, yes, but in essence divided," or something like that.

My interpretation of that section is that Voldemort isn't split between himself and Tom Riddle, but that the part of Voldemort that was transferred to Harry is alive and well in Harry - as Voldemort. This is why Hatry had the urge to lash out at Dumbledore when he passed close by.

As for the Map - It obviously wouldn't show the Chamber of Secrets becaue it was created as a reflection of what James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter discovered when they explored the school and grounds. What I find really interesting, is that James and the others didn't successfully learn to transform themselves until their 5th year. It makes me wonder how much they knew about the school before then Obviously James and Sirius were HUGE troublemakers on their own and probably discovered many of the secret tunnels and things before their 5th year. But it's 100% possible that they didn't find everything. They obviusly hadn't found the room of requirement because Sirius didn't suggest it as a place to practice on his own and didn't seem to know about it when Harry told him they had found a place.

And this brings up a new idea for me. - When Harry "created" the room of Requirement for the classes, one thing that showed up was the exact same foe glass he had seen in Moody's office. Does that mean the room produces things that already exist by moving them there? Or does it create things out of thin air like Dumbledore does when "drawing up a chair" when he needs one? Obviously all those books that showed up weren't specific items the trio were thinking about when "creating" the room, but they were there nonetheless. So the room is smart enough to know what you need (maybe Hermione was thinking books, and these are the ones that showed up, but the room was smart enough to get the right books for her) but where do the things come from? And if they come out of thin air, why did the foe glass have the same crack in it as the one Harry had seen?

If the things come from existing locations, is it possible the owner would notice it missing while it was in the room? Or are they possibly duplicates of things that exist? Can you take them out of the room? Is ti possible for Ron to walk back and forth in front of the room thinking he needs a large pile of gold and have gold magically show up? Or could Harry think he needs something to defeat Voldemort and what he needs will show up?

This is a room I REALLY want to know more about.

[mark_evens]

My interpretation of that section is that Voldemort isn't split between himself and Tom Riddle, but that the part of Voldemort that was transferred to Harry is alive and well in Harry - as Voldemort. This is why Hatry had the urge to lash out at Dumbledore when he passed close by.

I brought that up because it is never explained. It's one of those instances where JKR gives us the tinsi winsiest bit of some thing in the future to come. Just a teaser. Now we can theorize about it untill the cows come home. Its pretty obvious that it has to do with voldemort, but what is harry's connection? What is it that is divided. "But in essence divided." Does that mean that it seems whole, but in reality it is two? We'll just have to wait for this one.

If I'm not mistaken, this scene occures just after Harry has the dream of Arthur being attacked in the Dept. of Mysteries. The context is an important clue as well, but we really don't have enought to go off of. JKR knows what she is doing.

[ID824]

Originally Posted by mark_evens

I brought that up because it is never explained. It's one of those instances where JKR gives us the tinsi winsiest bit of some thing in the future to come. Just a teaser. Now we can theorize about it untill the cows come home. Its pretty obvious that it has to do with voldemort, but what is harry's connection? What is it that is divided. "But in essence divided." Does that mean that it seems whole, but in reality it is two? We'll just have to wait for this one.

If I'm not mistaken, this scene occures just after Harry has the dream of Arthur being attacked in the Dept. of Mysteries. The context is an important clue as well, but we really don't have enought to go off of. JKR knows what she is doing.

I know it's just a theory, but what I think is very significant is that both Harry and Voldemort now have a little bit of each other in them. Voldemort gave Harry some of himself and took into himself a bit of Harry. They are now joined and I have to wonder if the *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes upon hearing this news isn't just because now Voldemort is "mortal" enough to be killed. That seems to be the popular theory, but I personally think it's something deeper than that. There are so many areas of the story that are so well crafted that I have to believe that simply being made more human is not enough. I think the fact that they share a little bit of each other is what will give Harry the ability to take Voldemort down without necessarily facing him in a wizard duel.

[mark_evens]

Originally Posted by ID824

I know it's just a theory, but what I think is very significant is that both Harry and Voldemort now have a little bit of each other in them. Voldemort gave Harry some of himself and took into himself a bit of Harry. They are now joined and I have to wonder if the *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes upon hearing this news isn't just because now Voldemort is "mortal" enough to be killed. That seems to be the popular theory, but I personally think it's something deeper than that. There are so many areas of the story that are so well crafted that I have to believe that simply being made more human is not enough. I think the fact that they share a little bit of each other is what will give Harry the ability to take Voldemort down without necessarily facing him in a wizard duel.

I didn't realize that! They both have a bit of eachother. That seems to good to pass up as a plot thing. That "twinkle" in Dumbledore's eye was another one of those tinsi winsi little tease of something. They are all over if you look for them.

[ID824]

Originally Posted by mark_evens

I didn't realize that! They both have a bit of eachother. That seems to good to pass up as a plot thing. That "twinkle" in Dumbledore's eye was another one of those tinsi winsi little tease of something. They are all over if you look for them.

What wil be really interesting this time around is that everybody in the school will know all about Voldemort being back, and all the Death Eaters that got caught - especially Draco's dad - and it will be interesting to see how this plays out in school. It will make the DADA class so much more important from the student's point of view - I wonder if Dumbledore will allow the DA club meetings to continue or if Harry will be too busy with his own lessons to prepare for meeting Voldemort. Unless Dumbledore has some kind of magic that works specifically with two people having a little bit of each other in themselves, he's going to have to learn how to defend himself long enough to survive. I also wonder if Voldemort will get a new wand so as not to have to worry about the Priori Incantum from happening again.

[EEEvergood]

Don't forget that scene in Dumbledore's office where he pulls out the little metel instrument, which spinns around, a snake comes out, splits in two, and what not. Dumbledore says, "Yes, yes, but in essence divided," or something like that.[/quote]


There is a passage in COS that possiblly relates to this issue. Upon learning of Tom Riddle's existence via the diary, Harry's memory is jogged - as if he, Tom Riddle, had been a friend he had known when he was a small child. It struck me as a very odd and probably meaningful statement. It implies an unconsious closeness supporting the theory of duality within Harry. Perhaps?

[mark_evens]

Originally Posted by EEEvergood

There is a passage in COS that possiblly relates to this issue. Upon learning of Tom Riddle's existence via the diary, Harry's memory is jogged - as if he, Tom Riddle, had been a friend he had known when he was a small child. It struck me as a very odd and probably meaningful statement. It implies an unconsious closeness supporting the theory of duality within Harry. Perhaps?

I noticed that too, but I didn't know what to attribute it too. There really is a bit of Tom in Harry, that probably is what was awakened at that moment. Good thinking evergood

[litlemsprfect]

Okay, I know this is an older editorial, but I just read it again, and post, HBP I thought of something. I think that the map recognizes the soul of the person it shows. Since Voldy's horcruxes ARE parts of his soul, then would the map show which horcruxes are True horcruxes? Just speculation...Tell me what you think.

[hp_07]

I almost completely agree with this editorial.

I liked the reasoning with the Marauder's Map. Well done!

As for the idea of Voldemort and his mother.. wasn't that already shown when he attempted to kill Harry? It's not the father relationship we have to focus on, but the mother's. Afterall, it WAS the love of Lily that protected Harry. This exposed Voldemort's weakness. Also, it is of great note that Harry has his mother's eyes. Seeing as the mother idea is Voldemort's weakness, the eye idea might be of some importance.