Underground Lake #13 - Here We Go Again For the First Time

[navygreen]

Discussion for The Underground Lake #13 - Here We Go Again For the First Time by Brandon Ford.

[LoenaLeeflan]

I like the column, but it leaves me with one question: if Quirrelmort went to get the Stone by going to the Gringotts Lake (from the Hogwarts Lake), then what was he doing in the Leaky Cauldron? Wasn't he supposed to be in some lake, according to this theory?

[skelbs127]

A few thoughts on the portkeys and floo network. You stated that "anyone" could create a portkey. Perhaps not. Whom have we seen create portkeys? Barty Crouch, Jr. (under the guise of Moody), and Dumbledore, to name two. Perhaps you do need a license to create a portkey, similar to the license to apparate. It would be like having a license to drive a car and a license to drive a motorcycle. Two different modes of transportation, two different licenses. I'm not saying that Voldemort coudn't create a portkey, but perhaps it's not necessarily that ANYONE can create one. Just my thought.

Also, the floo network. I see the floo network as sort of like the phone, or an even better comparison, the internet. You can talk to people through it (a la Harry's floating head) or "travel" through it. Perhaps it could also work like the internet in the muggle world. If you don't want a person e-mailing you anymore, you can have their IP address blocked. Perhaps you can also "block" someone from coming through on the Floo network. It's a possibility. Not everything in the HP books can be completely from imagination. From a writing perspective, they have to be based on something in the muggle world (or heaven forbid, the "real" world ). Perhaps Jo got her inspiration from everyday things we don't necessarily think too deeply about.

Also, Brandon, you asked for questions for future editorials. Here's an interesting one: What could have been Jo's inspiration for things in the magical world, such as the floo network, portkeys, the penseive, etc. What things in the real world could they be based from?

[betty_black]

I thought this artical was actually a bit naive. I liked the lake theory but I don't think we can know everything about the other protection spells surrounding Hogwarts. If anyone could just floo in, it would have happened already. Sirius was allowed it, it's true. However if Dumbledoor is controling it, maybe even contacting Sirius himself, that would be allowed.

[skelbs127]

Originally Posted by betty_black

I thought this artical was actually a bit naive. I liked the lake theory but I don't think we can know everything about the other protection spells surrounding Hogwarts. If anyone could just floo in, it would have happened already. Sirius was allowed it, it's true. However if Dumbledoor is controling it, maybe even contacting Sirius himself, that would be allowed.

See, that's the mistake we've all made with the other books. We thought we knew everything about (insert piece of information here), but it turned out to be completely opposite. And saying that it already would have happened doesn't seem likely either. Remember we have two whole books left to go, and if we exclude everything because it "would already have happened", then what are we left to read? What are we left to discover?

I for one am taking everything with a grain of salt, but also recognizing the fact that it does have a distinct possibility of happening. I try to remember this simple fact: We don't know anything until it's all over.

[BlackDawn]

Personally, I think Dobby could become the first House Elf Minister of Magic. Fudge is gone, and once Voldy's done in for...

Nice article (I especially liked the bits about talking to yourself, I do it too ] ... though I think JK Rowling would be pulling our legs a little if Dobby became Minister of Magic. The lake theory is interesting, but I don't think I buy it, even though it does explain how Durmstrang would have come up to Hogwarts through the lake.

Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but weren't you going to explain why you called it the Underground Lake ... ?

[hawaiianrachael]

ok i have some theroys to go with some of peoples other theroys. Maybe Dumbledoor puts like a filter on the castle. Good comes in and goes out while Evil can't. The underground lake therory is realy cool. I dont even remember reading it. I think its a realy good thery. I bet jkr will explain it soon enough

[Butterbeerjunky]

AWESOME!! The lake theory is completely original, and I hope it does come true. I have a question!!! I have yet to come up with or read of a logical explanation of how Hogwarts is protected. Secret Keeper and "filters" can't be the answer, so what is it???

This column is 100 X better than any other column on Mugglenet (including the North Tower...) You rule Brandon!

[Belisma]

.....Great article as always. The lake theory sounds plausible to me. I love one of the ideas that you presented, that the teachers were at Hogwarts already on July 31st. (Here's a question, where do the teachers go during the summer? I've always assumed they stay at school or travel, but certainly they don't have houses outside Hogwarts, so it's completely likely that they were already back at Hogwarts on July 31st with or without early preparation for the 7 tasks.)


..... So, assuming they were there, did Quirellmort hasten to steal the Stone because he knew Dumbledore was having it moved? Or did Dumbledore move it because he knew Quirellmort was going to steal it?


..... Now, you may ask, in the second scenario, if Dumbledore knew Quirell was working for/being inhabited by Voldemort, why didn't he try to stop him, well I suggest North Tower article "Dumbledore: Clueless or Calculating?" Here http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/...wer/nt35.shtml


Basically I believe Maline is right, if Dumbledore knew Quirell was working for Voldy why didn't he do anything? Because he knew that he could not stop him, he knows the Prophecy. Why didn't he send him to Azkaban? With the Dementors? He couldn't do that. Where better to keep Quirellmort than at Hogwarts where Dumbledore could keep an eye on him. Anyways... Good article. Loved the lake theory.

[Byrum]

Originally Posted by Butterbeerjunky

AWESOME!! The lake theory is completely original, and I hope it does come true. I have a question!!! I have yet to come up with or read of a logical explanation of how Hogwarts is protected. Secret Keeper and "filters" can't be the answer, so what is it???

Actually the Headmaster (any and all headmasters of hogwarts) could have been the secret keeper of Hogwarts, and the charm was probably done by Godric Gryffindor himself. After Salazar left, Godric put the Charm on the school so he couldn't return to open his Chamber and purge the school, so Salazar had to leave it up to his descendants go to school at Hogwarts and open the Chamber for him. If this is correct, then the defence against apparating into the school would have been put up at the same time to stop him going back to where he knew the school was built. This is pure speculation but it fits with the information we have and also might add to why there is a lake connecting magical sites.

For example, when the school was first built, how did children travel to Hogwarts? They couldn't apparate (not necessarily because that the charm preventing people from apparating into hogwarts wasn't put up yet but that the students couldn't handle the advanced magic) and trains weren't invented. They might have come by air, but they may have been spotted to easily or for some the trip may have been too long. So why not go underground and go through this 'underground lake'. They could have built a ship big enough to fit all the students in, charmed it to work underwater and done it that way, away from the prying eyes of muggles.

[simplybecky]

I really liked this editorial. I like reading original theories, ones that we haven't heard about a thousand different versions of before. Honestly, when I read the part about there being an underground lake mentioned in Harry's visit to Gringotts, I had to check the book because I had never noticed it before.

Brandon, I really like how you tied in a pattern to show how the underground lake could be important in the future. First mentioning how JKR emphasizes over and over that no one can apparate within Hogwarts grounds, and then showing how the Durmstrang ship arrives on the lake. JKR has a knack for showing a small scale, less important version of something in one book, and then in a future book showing how the same concept can be used to change the whole story (i.e. Polyjuice potion). The clues are there, and I'm glad to be more aware of them now!

Originally Posted by skelbs127

We don't know anything until it's all over.

To quote Brandon's dog or werewolf or never mind, "couldn't have put it better myself."

However, that is no reason to forget that what is POSSIBLE, without any canon evidence is YOUR imagination, not JKRs.

Second, the next time I read that "THE WHEELS ARE IN MOTION!" I will scream.

Third, fascinating lake connectedness theory, but I have a bit of a hard time believing Gringotts' bowels would be connected to the rest of the wizarding world. Too much of a security risk, ditto for Hogwarts, the Tri-wizard tournament was an exception, I don't think anyone anytime can do what the Durmstrang ship did. Loading dock for dragons has a nice ring to it, but I rather expected something like extended apparation. Less hassle.

Fourth, Level 1 in the Ministry is the telephone booth- the visitors' entrace.

Fifth, I think portkeys are supposed to be cleared with the Ministry before they are 'made'. Which is why Dumbledore CAN whisk Harry away every now and then, but SHOULDN'T. However he only whisks Harry to places he has a complete right to send him to, the school he is rightfully Headmaster of, and the house he is Secret Keeper for. Which is also why Barty Crouch Jr., who did not want it known that anything unusual was afoot, made the TRI-WIZARD TOURNAMENT CUP a portkey, and not a quill he'd ask Potter to kindly hand to him after class. I believe the Cup was SUPPOSED to be a portkey, only it was supposed to transport the person touching it to the outside of the maze, near the judges, or something of that sort, to prove to them (s)he had won the tournament. So all Crouch Jr. changed was the DESTINATION of the portkey. No one would have known what happened if Harry hadn't come back. They'd have thought the portkey malfunctioned, or 'Moody' made a mistake (sent Harry to the Sahara desert- as happened during a Quidditch match- see Quidditch through the Ages) or ANYTHING but that the Dark Lord was back and had killed the Boy Who Lived. After a while, if they couldn't find him, of course, there would be trouble, but Crouch WOULD have gained time to escape, and however much he may 'love' his wonderful surrogate father, and however mad he was, I doubt (either) he (or Voldemort) wanted him to be CAUGHT while promoting the Dark Lord's cause. (Observe that if Harry had suddenly disappeared in the middle of the year there would have been more of an uproar, and someone may know that the last person to be seen with him was 'Moody' and he'd be fed Veritaserum if Dumbledore suspected him . . . etc etc. Not exactly an elegant explanation, but I do not like the loose end of the elaborate theatrics Voldemort's plan involved without a solid reason. This is the best I could think of.

Sixth, I don't think a person can floo into Hogwarts, we've only seen Lupin floo BETWEEN rooms, and the others have only TALKED through the floo, not travelled through it. I think there's a subtle difference. Besides, what would Voldemort do once he was in? Rush off to find Harry? In the meanwhile Dumbledore- the only one he ever feared- is only a few floors away. Not worth the risk, especially if he can't disapparate at a moment's notice either. There is a reason Dumbledore didn't kill or try to kill Voldemort at the DoM, and whatever the reason may be, I do not think it would exist past Harry's death. And even if Voldemort KNOWS that because of the prophecy only Harry can really vanquish him I doubt that he is willing to risk his life at the hands to Dumbledore even to kill Harry. (To reiterate, this is IF he can floo in at all, and IF he can find Harry before Dumbledore finds him.)

Seventh, and related to sixth, I think the significance of it being noted over and over again that you can't apparate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds is that if Voldemort were trapped there he'd be a bit, well, trapped. I have this theory that Lucius Malfoy is goin gto betray his master, not to help Dumbledore, but because he hates mudbloods. He'll try to pick up where Voldemort leaves off, still be the darkest of wizards, but I don't think he's one to take kindly to being made to grovel by one with muggle blood in him. Especially because the rest of the Death Eaters may not know of Voldemort's muggle father. Pettigrew does (see rebirthing scene in GoF), Malfoy must, since he gave Ginny the diary, but from the . . . unprintable names . . . Bellatrix's reaction to Harry's announcement of Voldemort's parentage in the DoM, I don't think the . . . woman . . . knows exactly who she's serving. Well, I don't think she'd like what Malfoy will eventually tell her. And I doubt that even Voldemort could overpower all his minnions, "many of them almost as terrible as he". The third part of this point is that Harry is at his present stage ( and I don't think another 2 years will change this) incapable of killing or volitionally causing pain (though not averse to using some colorful hexes), is nowhere near a match for Voldemort's true power in case of a prolonged mano-e-mano duel, and must be the instrument of vanquishing the Dark Lord, who must 'die at the hand' of Harry (unless Harry dies at his, which by itself is too much of a tragedy for the world to be real)- a contradiction I often beat my skull against. I can't really solve this, but I have the idea Dumbledore's power may somewho be needed to vanquish Voldemort, or perhaps Voldemort's power either a bit like Gilderoy Lockhart, or in the sense that the Death Eaters are his real source of power and if they turned on him it might be a sight worth it's ugliness in justice, or because Harry has some of Voldemort in him, or a connection to his nemesis . . . I could go on forever. My point being that Hogwarts' inpenetrability and inescapable nature ( do think it is these things), betrayal where fear and self interest and hate are the motivations instead of acceptance and love and loyalty, and Dumbledore and Harry together make for something Voldemort may not survive against.

Bit rambling, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

[Byrum]

THANK YOU, I thought I was crazy. I think floo powder and 'your head appearing in a fireplace' is like talking to someone on some type of video phone as opposed to actually going to there house. Well done Apple!

[Joe44]

Originally Posted by LoenaLeeflan

I like the column, but it leaves me with one question: if Quirrelmort went to get the Stone by going to the Gringotts Lake (from the Hogwarts Lake), then what was he doing in the Leaky Cauldron? Wasn't he supposed to be in some lake, according to this theory?

those were my thoughts exactly

[The Gray Lady]

...via the plumbing. Harry thought that the Chamber of Secrets may have been underneath the lake and Moaning Myrtle mentioned having been flushed directly into the lake. Thus, the attack may spring up not in the lake but directly into the castle, perhaps in the middle of the night. The future role JKR has mentioned for Myrtle may be sounding the alarm as DEs enter through the Chamber, presumably the only bathroom with pipes large enough for people. If dementors can travel through the smaller pipes they may be popping up all over. This could be the reason bathrooms have been popping up since the Troll scene in Book 1 when so few books, shows, or movies even mention bathrooms exist.

[scooterbug8515]

Your point about the whole Lake thing is cool. Floo network I have to dissagree. The fier places are being monitored at least they were when Umbridge was in charge...(I wouldn't be supprised if Dumbeldore kept an eye on them too.) Sirius was almost caught when he contacted Harry in OotP and then Harry had to go to Umbridge's office since her's wasn't monitored... Times befor Ootp when Sirius used the floo network to contact Harry it was when was know to be good. Why would Dumbeldore want to prevent Sirius from talking to Harry? I think if Vodie did floo in he would be caught. There may even be a block, preventing him from comming in.

[stu]

i liked the lake theory, and at the end of OOTP didnt voldemort dissapear through the fountain of magical brethren, wrapped up in water, cant remember exactly, helps prove the travel by water part of the theory

[Night Owl]

Hello! Your article was enjoyable as always, and whether or not the lake theory is verified by JKR, it is still very clever, and I like it. As for using floo powder, I think there is a simple explanation as to why it cannot be used directly to get into Hogwarts. So far, I do not believe we have seen any examples where someone has actively used floo powder to either enter or leave Hogwarts. We have seen people use floo powder to contact other people (Sirius's face in the Gryffindor fire, Harry's face in the 12 Grimmauld Place fire to talk to Sirius and Lupin), and we do see professors using floo powder within the castle to enter each other's offices without using the corridors (Lupin visiting Snape). I don't think there is any mystery here - I think that simply there is a firewall of sorts between Hogwarts and the rest of the world, where a person can get as far as putting his head in the fire for the purpose of communication, but cannot fully trespass onto the school. This is a standard protection required by any parent sending a child away to school - there needs to be a basic system for preventing dangerous trespassers from coming in, and sneaky students from getting out (Maurauders and Weasley twins aside). So within the school, the fireplaces are connected as normal (like an intranet), at least for faculty for their convenience, whereas between the school and the rest of the world, the fireplaces only let heads through, not full bodies (like a firewall). Another parallel is that on a campus of a college or a workplace, frequently telephones on the campus use the standard (American) seven-digit number systems, but require an 8 or a 9 to dial out. Within the system on campus, the normal conveniences exist, but between the system and the outside, there is a limitation (in the case of phone systems, the 8 or the 9). So, no, I don't expect anything terribly interesting with the floo powder (unless Voldemort figures out how to shoot spells through the fireplace without bodily entering the room, which could happen and would be interesting - imagine imperiusing entire houses through the common room fire? Not likely, but interesting.) However, the gist of the article is valid - Voldemort will undoubtedly figure out how to work his way around the protections around Hogwarts, through underground lake, portkey, or another mechanism in order to attack the castle for purposes such as those you mention in your next editorial UL #14. Thanks for the fun!

[hippogreif]

Hi!
I like your theory about connected lakes very much an I hope it comes true. But personally, I think, that the underground lake at Gringott's is just a background information to show the reader that it's really a big cave.
It would be to much of a risk for Gringott's to be connected to the rest of the wizarding world. But maybe there are dragons standing around the lake, ready to frie everyone who tries to get out of it…