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Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? #2



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 26th, 2005, 6:48 pm
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Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? #2

Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy?

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  #2  
Old January 26th, 2005, 7:40 pm
hotharry  Female.gif hotharry is offline
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I DONT KNOW! I think that he must not know, otherwise he would kill him wouldn't he?


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  #3  
Old January 26th, 2005, 8:13 pm
destiney  Female.gif destiney is offline
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I wouldn't have thought Voldie would know other wise Snape would be dead as he would have no other reasons to keep Snape as he is too good at occulmancy and so Voldie wouldnt get any information out of him.


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Old January 26th, 2005, 8:21 pm
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It's obvious that he knows Snape is a spy because he said he wants to kill him. Unless there is another DE that Voldemort wants to kill and he doesn't mean Snape. Maybe he overlooked the fact that Snape is a spy seeing as he's good at occlumency, and maybe he thinks that Snape was just too scared to go back to him that night in the graveyard (i highly doubt it).


  #5  
Old January 26th, 2005, 8:24 pm
April_M  Female.gif April_M is offline
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first of all (and sorry for spoilers on this), Voldemort said he wanted to kill Snape, i think it was in OoTP. Also Voldemort doesnt like being doublecrossed, and he knew from Peter that Snape was working for Dumbledore now and also the fact that he didn't show up with the rest of the Death Eaters says something to him doesn't it?


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  #6  
Old January 26th, 2005, 8:28 pm
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In GOF, Voldemort said he believed a death eater to be gone forever, and that he would probably kill him. Im pretty sure he was talking about snape, because as far as Harry saw, Snape was not there. But it seems that snape has gone to voldemort later on, possibly soothing the dark lords fears by saying something like "i couldn't leave or dumbeldore would get suspicious."
So either voldemort knows and is using snape, which doesn't seem all that likely to me, or voldemort was convinced by snapes excuse. Remember Voldemort is good at telling when someone is lying, but snape is an expert at occlumency, perhaps so good he could fool voldemort.


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  #7  
Old January 26th, 2005, 8:30 pm
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I don't think Voldemort would want to kill Snape even if he knew that he work's for Dumbledore, I think he'd use him to get to Harry.


  #8  
Old January 26th, 2005, 8:31 pm
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He must know if you look at the facts.

1. In PS/SS, LV did not bring Snape in on the plan to steal the stone. He must have had reason not to trust him at this point.

2. Snape works against Quirell to protect the stone. Some people might say that LV knew that Snape didn't know LV was stealing the stone. I don't LV would differentiate between someone who works against him intentionally and someone who works against him unintentionally.

3. Dumbledore, at Karkaroff's hearing, tells the entire council that Snape was a spy. Not a great way to keep that information secret.

4. Barty Crouch Sr. was at the aforementioned hearing. LV had taken over Crouch's mind. Whatever Crouch knows, Voldemort would know. Or atleast he *SHOULD* know. If he extracted every though from Bertha Jorkins mind, he would almost certainly do the same to a high ranking ministry official.

5. Graveyard scene, LV mentions a traitor.

Of course, I have no idea what Snape's task for the order is, except that it's his job to find out what LV is thinking. My guess is he's getting his information from another DE.


  #9  
Old January 26th, 2005, 9:30 pm
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Wouldn't you think the Dumbledore, claimed greatest wizard in the world, would know if Snape was spying for Voldermort. Also, Voldermort would have just had Snape grab Harry in the 2nd or 3rd book and bring him to Voldermort and let Harry die.

Or maybe, Snape is a spy and he is just waiting for the right moment or instructions from Voldermort to bring Harry in and then Harry will be killed. Overall, I think Snape has a clear slate and that he isn't a spy and is on Dumbledores site with the Order of the Phoenix.


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  #10  
Old January 27th, 2005, 1:20 am
axels  Male.gif axels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130R
He must know if you look at the facts.

1. In PS/SS, LV did not bring Snape in on the plan to steal the stone. He must have had reason not to trust him at this point.

2. Snape works against Quirell to protect the stone. Some people might say that LV knew that Snape didn't know LV was stealing the stone. I don't LV would differentiate between someone who works against him intentionally and someone who works against him unintentionally.

3. Dumbledore, at Karkaroff's hearing, tells the entire council that Snape was a spy. Not a great way to keep that information secret.

4. Barty Crouch Sr. was at the aforementioned hearing. LV had taken over Crouch's mind. Whatever Crouch knows, Voldemort would know. Or atleast he *SHOULD* know. If he extracted every though from Bertha Jorkins mind, he would almost certainly do the same to a high ranking ministry official.

5. Graveyard scene, LV mentions a traitor.

Of course, I have no idea what Snape's task for the order is, except that it's his job to find out what LV is thinking. My guess is he's getting his information from another DE.


Then why is Snape still alive, if he knows? The only possiblity I can think of would be that snape either 1. convinced voldy that he is a double agent or
2. he actually is a double agent

I don't know


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  #11  
Old January 27th, 2005, 2:16 am
SnapeLova  Female.gif SnapeLova is offline
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i definately think that voldy knows. he is way to smart for that.


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  #12  
Old January 27th, 2005, 3:51 am
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Many of you, I see, seem to think that because of Dumbledore's status as the most powerful wizard in the world, he would automatically know if Snape was betraying him and spying for Voldemort. I don't see the reasoning in this. Snape, as a master Occlumens should be perfectly capable of blocking his thoughts from Dumbledore, Voldemort and really anybody else.

I mean, why was Dumbledore so intent in having Harry trained in Occlumency, after all? Was it not so that he could learn to block out Voldemort from his mind? It is obvious that Voldemort is far more powerful than Harry at the moment, yet Dumbeldore was having Harry trained to be able to resist Voldy's mind assaults. This tells us that the art of Occlumency/Legilimency really doesn't have much to do with a wizard's overall power and whatnot. Rather, it is the mastery of the art itself that will affect how well one is able to resist mind invasions/penetrate someone else's mind.

Also, do not forget that Barty Crouch Jr. was perfectly capable of completely fooling Dumbledore for the entire school year. The same, I believe, can be said about Quirrel.

This shows us that, just as Dumbledore himself admits, the old Headmaster of Hogwarts is by no means omnipotent or omniscient or anything of the sort. He is capable of being fooled and we must never overlook that fact, lest we get hit in the face with some very unpleasant, very unexpected surprise somewhere in the last two remaining books.

Now about Snape specifically.... I doubt he is still serving as a spy for Dumbledore. Voldemort knows he's a traitor and would surely never take him back with that knowledge in mind. Snape, in my opinion, will remain loyal to Dumbledore, and he will serve an important role in the Order and in the war, but his role will definitely not be that of a spy, I don't think.


  #13  
Old January 27th, 2005, 4:01 am
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Well put Kratos, I wasnt thinking about Occlumency when I was writing...You said what I am now thinking.


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Old January 27th, 2005, 9:12 am
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what? i always thought that snape was the one voldemort was referring to when he said something like "another left us and he will pay". didn't he? and there's no reason for him not to know, when lucius and snape are..well, in my opinion, in good terms?


  #15  
Old January 27th, 2005, 5:06 pm
hotharry  Female.gif hotharry is offline
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Hello! I doubt that Voldermort would let Snape live if he knew that he was a spy. The man would be dead by now, or Voldermort is using him to find out what the Order is doing. Otherwise I'm sure Voldermort would have killed Snape long ago, why keep him around if he's giving information to the otherside unless Voldermort is using that to his advantage. But I hardly doubt otherwise that snape would be dead.


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Old January 27th, 2005, 6:50 pm
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I GoF, when they'r at the graveyard, Voldemort refers to him as the one that will never return. So, he knows, but I don't want him to kill Snape...


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  #17  
Old January 27th, 2005, 10:26 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa00
I GoF, when they'r at the graveyard, Voldemort refers to him as the one that will never return. So, he knows, but I don't want him to kill Snape...
I'm 99% sure that quote does not refer to Snape. I have found that when Rowling makes something obvious it's always wrong.


  #18  
Old January 27th, 2005, 11:05 pm
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I believe that Snape was at the Graveyard scene, Harry just didn't recognize him, or notice him. When Harry gets back and starts naming names of DE's to Fudge, Snape jumps as to prevent Harry from speaking. I think Snape is afraid Harry will say his name. I don't think Voldemort's comment was about Snape. I think Snape is playing the role of double agent. Doubledore thinks he is spying on Voldemort for the order, Voldemort thinks he is spying on Doubledore for him. Both realize he will have to feed the other some information to keep them trusting him. And where Snape's true loyalities lie I am not sure. I believe he will choose whichever side he thinks will be better for his own safety, he is after all the head of the slytherian house.


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  #19  
Old January 27th, 2005, 11:21 pm
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I think that Voldemort knows he's a spy but can't/won't kill him because he is under Dumbledore's protection, and he can't invade Snape's mind because Snape is so good at Occlumency.
Either that or as someone else said he is a double agent, which I think is most likely.


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  #20  
Old January 28th, 2005, 12:09 am
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I think voldy has no clue, nor does lucious for that matter, otherwise why would draco be so cool with him? or crabbe or goyle for that matter. I'm sure they're DE dad's tell them all the traitors and who to look out for blah blah blah. So I'm goin on the whim that if lucious or draco haven't said anything, then Vold probably doesn't know


 
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