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Underground Lake #17 - Mysteries Unveiled Part Deux



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  #1  
Old March 5th, 2005, 3:59 am
navygreen  Female.gif navygreen is offline
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Underground Lake #17 - Mysteries Unveiled Part Deux

Discussion for The Underground Lake #17 - Mysteries Unveiled Part Deux: The Choices of the Headmaster by Brandon Ford.


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  #2  
Old March 5th, 2005, 5:30 am
CrazyMissSarah  Female.gif CrazyMissSarah is offline
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Hm... I like the theory. I also think the idea of Harry tackling Voldemort into the veil is very amusing. XD The veil is obviously very important... but why would Gringotts have a veil? That's just slightly... odd. It's like the goblins expect people to die in their bank?


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  #3  
Old March 5th, 2005, 6:37 am
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Once again you have written a thought provoking tread . I think you are right about there being more than just one veil in the world , as for your idea of Harry pushing Voldemort through the veil. Well I've thought that was probably the only way that Harry could kill Voldemort seeing as Voldemort is so much more knowledgeable about magic , and dark magic at that ,that I felt all along that Harry could only win by the use of brute force or muggle fighting skills not by magic alone . So pushing Voldemort through the veil makes sense to me.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 7:24 am
Oceania  Female.gif Oceania is offline
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Excellent editorial as usual.

Quote:
Dumbledore knows EXACTLY what's going on. I think that Dumbledore is simply in the awkward position of playing chess with time and having to think of moves years ahead. This is why Dumbledore allowed (and I do mean allowed) Umbridge to teach at his school. The wheels had to be put in motion for the final confrontation. Harry had to start the DA and learn to become a leader. Ron had to be attacked by a brain (which I think will definitely come into play later). And most importantly, SIRIUS HAD TO FALL THROUGH THE VEIL! Why did Sirius have to fall through the veil? To show Harry the way.
-from the editorial

I COMPLETELY agree with this! We can see leadership skills portrayed like this in alot of folklore and fiction. Merlin, and the Lady of the Lake (Arthurian legend) come to mind. Great leaders must think (as you said) YEARS ahead. Seemingly "chosen" by God, or the Fates, or whatever, leaders like Dumbledore must come to terms with some hard choices; they must manipulate, they must "play chess" with the human race, specifically those who can change/alter it. Not because he is mean spirited or essentially manipulative; but because he possesses a certain wisdom, genius, and "gift". I have the idea that Dumbledore doesn't exactly relish having to "use" people...but he must if the greater good shall triumph. Bit of a grey area there, eh? I wouldn't want to be in that position---it must be very lonely. Full of hard choices...something Dumbledore knows all about.

As for Snape not getting the DADA position; I think you're half right. The wheels DID need to be put into motion...certain things needed to happen. Dumbledore saw that. Otherwise why would he LET Fudge put a bigoted, biased, hateful creature like Umbridge in a position of power? But, I do think there is more to it than that. I think that the mystery that is Severus Snape will come into play somewhere.

As far as Snape and his teaching skills...I think you maybe underestimate him. It is VERY true that he is not a personable, effective teacher---as you said he plays favorites, he undermines students' confidence, etc. BUT - that doesn't change the fact that Snape is a Potions Master, and a Master Legillemens/Occlumens. He is, within his subjects, a brilliant man, albeit a nasty one. And although he is all these things, it is unfair to say that the student body doesn't learn anything in his classes...they do. Even so, why DOES Dumbledore keep him around when he is so hateful towards the students? Is it protection, as you stated? Possibly that's part of it, but I think there's more.

As for the final confrontation(s). I loved your take on things! Of course, I can't really bring myself to believe anyone's theories on that aspect of the story. I just don't know how JKR will pull it off, and I can't wait!!!

Wonderful editorial! Full of juicy details to debate and discuss!


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Old March 5th, 2005, 7:26 am
hpfttl  Male.gif hpfttl is offline
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Interesting article. I never thought about having to force Voldemort through the veil and i like the idea. A little off topic but if voldemort and harry do duel then i think that either harry or voldemort will have to be using a different wand or else priori incantatem will happen again. that is of course its a formal duel and one doesnt get the other unexpectedly.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 8:07 am
hettie  Female.gif hettie is offline
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I do like the idea of the veil to kill voldemort as it's kinda non-violent. While we saw aspects of Harrys temper in OotP you can never imagin him killing in cold blood, even after Sirius' "death" with all that emotion raging in him
Quote:
"SHE KILLED SIRIUS" bellowed Harry "SHE KILLED HIM - I'LL KILL HER" OotP pg 713
But yet when the time came all he did with that hatred was use the crucio curse and not very well.

As for Snape i felt the reason for keeping him out of the DADA position was so when Snape went back to his undercover work as a deatheater he wouldn't tempt Voldemort into tampering with the teaching of DADA much like he did through Crouch in GoF

All and all a really thought provoking thread always a pleasure to read


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Old March 5th, 2005, 9:38 am
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the veil thing MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. omigawd! i mean, it never even occured to me that voldie might be putting spells on himself again to protect himself from dying. why did it never occur to me? so he DOES have to fall thru the veil... this actually matches another one of the editorials i read once. it was about jkr putting "useless" information in certain books, only for us to realize that the information becomes huge two books after that. example, the concept of animagi is already shown to us in book 1, but for no apparent reason. in bk 3, we see that being animagi plays a HUGE role in the plot. the polyjuice potion was introduced in book 2, and look how big a role that potion took in book 4! the editorial was actually focusing more on the metamorphmagus concept; the writer was saying that since it came out in book 5, it would be crucial in book 7. AND THE VEIL THING FITS RIGHT IN! she introduces us to the veil in book and 5, and in book 7, thats how voldie dies! its genius!

however, i still stand by my stand (haha) that harry won't die, so i guess ill just have to imagine him somehow pushing voldie in, silly as it may look.



Last edited by Mae; March 5th, 2005 at 9:42 am.
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  #8  
Old March 5th, 2005, 11:51 am
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I think there's one or two flaws. Like Dumbledore know where the chamber of secrets was. Fawkes didn't go through another passage way, he sort of Pheonix apparated because if you remember in OotP Fawkes explodes in fire leaving behind a single feather when sent with a message to Mrs Wealsey. So it's likely than Fawkes sensed Harry's location and went to it.

This then raises alot of doubt about Dumbledore's omnicence, why if Sirius was meant to die did He want Harry to close his mind?

Now while I do agree with you on somepoints, and Snape is a terible reacher and if that was me i would have reported him to Dumbledore years go. But i think alot of people give Dumbledore a little too much credite althouth he definately does have an overall scheme and maybe the DA was in his mind.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 12:23 pm
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I don't know, Dumbledore certainly seemed to regret that Sirius died, and acted as if he thought that his death was unnecessary. I also don't think even Dumbledore could see that someday Harry would end up seeing someone get shoved through the veil. Didn't he say that he should have told Harry the truth from the start so Harry would never have been tricked into going to the Department of Mysteries.

But I agree that Voldemort could be killed by being shoved through the veil. The veil and memory charms are the only things that could work against Voldemort at this point, unless Dumbledore teaches Harry some real powerful magic.

Actually I have my own theory on how they could level the playing field: in Book 6 both Harry and Voldemort duel and both their wands blow up (in Book 4 when they duelled Harry thought that his wand was ready to explode.) Dumbledore will sacrifice himself to get Harry back to Hogwarts, where McGonagall and Snape will give him the replacement wand that Dumbledore had Ollivanders make years ago. Since Voldemort can't get another feather from Fawkes, he can't get a replacement wand so he'll use another one...


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Last edited by Durandal; March 5th, 2005 at 12:26 pm.
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  #10  
Old March 5th, 2005, 3:14 pm
fairylight  Female.gif fairylight is offline
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I loved this editorial, as I love all of the ones you write! They're very thought provoking. I loved this theory, and I've always thought that Dumbledore does know EVERYthing that's going on, but I liked what you said about Dumbledore always meaning more than one thing when he speaks, that's very interesting.
I also really like the veil idea, I had never thought of it before that there would be more than one veil, but now that you've mentioned it, it seems extremely possible. I think we're going to learn a lot more about that veil in the next two books.

Good job, keep it up!!


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Old March 5th, 2005, 4:22 pm
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Snape is obviously the Wolfgang Puck of potions. Even Lupin admits that Snape is one of the few that can brew the Wofsbane potion for him. As for Hermione brewing the Polyjuice Potion, there's not much that she can't do. She's a very advanced witch for her age.

Dumbledore knows a lot and guesses more, but I don't think he knows everything. He knows pretty much what Harry is doing because he's a Legilimens himself. And if he had allowed himself to have contact with Harry, he would have known what Harry was going through in OotP. But let's allow JKR some literary license.

As you mentioned, Trelawny saying beyond the veil into the future or something like that (I should have written it down) could be very important. Could Trelawny be the contact with Sirius and James and Lily behind the veil? Hermione blew off Trelawny as an old fraud, and this is one time she could have been wrong.

As for LV and Harry falling through the veil together ... could be. Sherlock Holmes fell over the cliff with his arch-enemy Moriarity. Then Holmes turned up years later in Europe in disguise, I think playing the violin as a gypsy. Holmes buffs can correct me on that. So, Harry being happy when he thought he was going to join Sirius in Ootp could foreshadow this. Sirius and his parents could be telling him that they're waiting for him and it will be alright to fall through the veil with LV (choking up here).


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Old March 5th, 2005, 6:28 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Interesting theory about why Snape wasn't DADA. Could be true.

I think the idea of forcing V through the veil is a nifty one. However, I don't understand why people say Harry would never use Avada Kedavra. If pushing V through the veil kills him, then it's no different from AK. If Harry pushes him through, he obviously has the will to kill him. And Harry's going to have to have the will to kill him (unless Gollum shows up and knocs V into the volcanic fire). He didn't against Bellatrix, but he'd never tried an AK before and, of course, against Voldemort the stakes will be higher. We keep hearing that Harry's greatest strength is love. If he refuses to kill Voldemort (who is a killer), thereby guaranteeing major disaster for everyone he loves, then he doesn't really love them.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 7:48 pm
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I'm a firm believer in the theory that Harry has to sacrifice himself to get rid of Voldy. I do think that Harry could try the AK on Voldy (he was ready to kill Bella after Sirius fell through the veil " She killed him - I'll kill her" pg 809 OotP), BUT it wouldn't work for 2 reasons:
1) Harry doesn't have it in him to do it. By that I mean he couldn't put enough behind the curse to actually make it work - he couldn't even do Crucio. I'm sure he'd get the hang of it if he practiced, but I doubt he would and if the first time he tried it was on Voldy, I doubt he would, as imposter Moody said, "get so much as a nose bleed."
2) Voldy has his old body back, and presumably, his old protections. Ak didn't work on him the first time, so I doubt a second attempt might be much better - even with Harry's blood in his veins. Plus, Harry's blood confers Voldy a bit of extra protection as well.(I've got other theories about the look of triumph, so I don't think Harry's blood now makes him human enough to die, but i digress). So the best case scenario there is back to Vapormort, and that's assuming Harry got to cast the spell to a wandless Voldy! Highly unlikely....

We all know that Harry has got a "hero complex" and I am sure that he would sacrifice himself if it meant a safer world for everyone. Maybe through the veil, maybe some other way - but I do agree it will be while Voldy is trying to possess Harry that they both will be done in.

BTW - this is my fav column - I like the way you're thinking!


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Old March 5th, 2005, 8:31 pm
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How about one step further...

Maybe the real reason Voldemort didn't die when he attacked Harry is because when the spell backfired, a part of his essence stayed in Harry. We've already seen that the two are connected, and that even Dumbledore thinks he transferred some of his powers to Harry - why not a part of what makes him whole. Maybe Voldemort's essence tried to get through the veil at first, but couldn't because it wasn't all there. part of it was still trapped in Harry.

If the veil is what kills Voldemort in the end, then I see it happening this way - Harry and Voldemort both fall into the veil, but not beig able to differentiate between the two, it takes all of Voldemort and spits Harry out the other side. It's possible that the veil could only take one soul at a time and it chose the stronger of the two.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 8:47 pm
Gryffin82  Female.gif Gryffin82 is offline
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It all makes sense. But if Voldemort has to die by falling through the veil, then what difference would it make if he had a part of Harry's body or not? Obviously he has to have a body, but what is the gleam of Triumph about in Dumbledore's eyes? Voldemort said he wanted Harry's blood, not Bertha Jorkins' or anyone else's, because then he too would be protected by Lily's protection. Obviously Dumbledore knows something that Voldemort doesn't, and that's why he was happy then. But I think the blood protection and Harry's specific blood being used to make Voldemort rise is important. Something else has to happen before Voldemort goes through the veil.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 9:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryffin82
Voldemort said he wanted Harry's blood, not Bertha Jorkins' or anyone else's, because then he too would be protected by Lily's protection. Obviously Dumbledore knows something that Voldemort doesn't, and that's why he was happy then. But I think the blood protection and Harry's specific blood being used to make Voldemort rise is important. Something else has to happen before Voldemort goes through the veil.
Actually, Voldemort wanted Harry's blood so he would no longer be prevented from touching Harry, but in doing so, he also took in a little bit of Harry - very much how Harry has a little bit of Voldemort in him. Like the Protean charm, maybe there's some way Harry will charm himself that will affect Voldemort since he has part of Harry in him, even though it resides in another wizard's body.

Rowling told us that it was going to be important later that Lily was very good at charms, maybe this is part of the protection she offered to Harry along with her love.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 10:24 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
Interesting theory about why Snape wasn't DADA. Could be true.

I think the idea of forcing V through the veil is a nifty one. However, I don't understand why people say Harry would never use Avada Kedavra. If pushing V through the veil kills him, then it's no different from AK. If Harry pushes him through, he obviously has the will to kill him. And Harry's going to have to have the will to kill him (unless Gollum shows up and knocs V into the volcanic fire). He didn't against Bellatrix, but he'd never tried an AK before and, of course, against Voldemort the stakes will be higher. We keep hearing that Harry's greatest strength is love. If he refuses to kill Voldemort (who is a killer), thereby guaranteeing major disaster for everyone he loves, then he doesn't really love them.
I disagree. I think to use the killing curse you have to kill in cold blood. Bellatrix tells Harry "You need to mean them (the unforgivable curses), Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- To enjoy it -- righteous anger won't hurt me long"

I think in order to effectively use the killing curse you need to do so with the intent to murder, not for self-protection, or out of righteousness or neccesity. Therefore I doubt Harry would be able to perform a effective killing curse without becoming more callous than he is now. I mean heck the boy let the man who betrayed his parents, resulting in their deaths, leave unharmed by Sirus and Lupin.

Also Harry has never been good at controlling his emotions, we see this in his occlumency lessons with Snape and his inability to keep his mouth shut in Umbridge's class. So I just cannot imagine Harry becoming unfeeling and cold blooded enough to pull off a killing curse.

Therefore I have always believed Harry will defeat LV through an act of self-sacrifice. So I think pushing LV through the veil is really pausable and a great theory. After all Dumbledore said that "In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you" I think it is Harry's heart that will be important in the end and the idea of Harry sacrificing himself seems to fit so well with the themes of the book. Whether Harry remains dead or not I have not completely decided, but I believe he will take out himself if it means destorying LV.


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Old March 5th, 2005, 11:09 pm
DanielRadclif  Female.gif DanielRadclif is offline
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Quote:
because if you remember in OotP Fawkes explodes in fire leaving behind a single feather when sent with a message to Mrs Wealsey. So it's likely than Fawkes sensed Harry's location and went to it.
- From above

I agree on that front.

This was a great article! I agree on the front that Voldemort has to go through the veil. JKR said in an interview that Sirius (though she didn't use his name, as the book wasn't out) had to die. IT HAD TO HAPPEN!

Using that fact, it makes perfect sense that Harry, in a very typical tragic hero move, will sacrifice himself if he knows he can defeat the other person in the process.

Great issue, B!


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Old March 6th, 2005, 1:09 am
DivaVeela  Female.gif DivaVeela is offline
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What a great Editorial!

Yes, how else could Harry kill Voldemort than by sacrificing himself? It is brilliant!

But a lot must happen before we get there. For instance, how could they find themselves in the veil room again?

We know that the part of Voldemort that was left in Harry - the scar - is the source of tremendous pain whenever Voldemort is nearby, and that being possessed by Voldemort hurt so much that it left Harry weak and sick. (Quirrell did not seem to feel this way). Now, as has been mentioned above, Voldemort also has a part of Harry in him - his blood. Maybe Harry can learn how to torture Voldemort with this in same way that he has been tortured by Voldemort.

In fact he already knows how to use it - by feeling love! Furthermore if love - aka the power that Harry has "which the Dark Lord knows not" - is the way to torture Voldemort, then Harry will have to find a way to open that mysterious locked door in the DoM. As Mae stated above, JKR introduces things casually that later become CENTRAL to the plot.

Just suppose for a minute that instead of falling through the veil, Harry was able to push Voldemort through that door. Wouldn't that be sweet justice! And, as Dumbledore said, so much worse than death - at least for Voldemort!


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  #20  
Old March 6th, 2005, 1:30 am
DARIEL73
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I LIKED your opinion on the subject. however i disagree with a few things.
1) if u recall in GOF, Harry does duel with Voldemort, true its not much of a duel but he does duel and servive. The dark lord uses the ak on Harry and Harry's wand, being from the same bird, protects him. So i think that in a duel everything Voldemort uses against Harry will be useless unless harrys wand is smashed
2) I think that jkrowling has her reasons for not having dumbledore apoint snape to the dada position. She has said in interviews that in book 6 she will explain y dumbledore trusts snape, and in that she will also explain why snape has not been givin the position.
3) As to the vail, you bring up some good points to the breaking of time, past future thing. But as to the whole serius going through the vail to show the way for harry, it might be true but i dont think that harry is going to fall through the vail with voldemort. Plus, if you remimber in OOTP, during the big fight scene with dumbledore vs. voldemort, voldemort does take over harry's mind, in attempt to have dumbledore kill harry by tring to kill him. It is not possible for harry to be taken by voldemort that way because of (quote from dumbledore himself) "harry contains a power that evan voldemort does not have" and that power is what keeps harry safe from being controlled by voldemort. And the whole pushing voldemort into the vail and killing himself thing is not possible, and is clear to see, if u understood what the prophecy means. "one shall not live while the other remains" (or something like that) one of the other has to kill the other for the other to LIVE, for harry to survive (or for voldemort to survive) one must kill the other, and the prophecy says that one of them will live, but one will die by the other. Besides if jkrowling ends the story by having harry comitt suicide by killing voldemort, than the ending will be ruined i think. I think she will create one the most spectacular endings, and by all means surprising endings, ever.

Now i agree with you in that i think dumbledore (although one of my favs and will be sad when this happens) will have to die. It is the only way i see the ending unfolding, because i dont think that voldemort will be able to face harry for basicly human kind with dumbledore in the way, voldemort will not come out of hiding long enough, b/c he knows he cannot defeat dumbledore. So how dumbledore dies i couldnt guess(and i hope he doesnt sacrifice himself like obey-1 did in star wars b/c that would be just lame), i see like a sneak attach or something.

anyways theres my opinion on the subject that i fill i should say at this time, please respond and tell me what u think. l8r


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