Deconstructing the Marauders V.9

[silver ink pot]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desraelda
I really don't think Pettrigrew is an actual DE. I think he's just a Voldie supporter. I've always felt that the DE were the inner circle, the privileged ones. The Black family weren't DE, but I can see them contributing to the cause both financially and sending their son to join LV. I see people like Pettigrew being cannon fodder/peasants (in GoF, he was more like an aide-de-camp), with LV as the king, and the DE as the royal dukes and earls, etc.

Even people's best friends didn't know they were DEs. Sirius must not have ever seen the Dark Mark on Peter's arm, plus they wore masks, so there may be other DEs of whom we have no clues yet.

Here is the passage in GoF that tells of Peter's Dark Mark:

Voldemort bent down a pulled out Wormtail's left arm; he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow, and Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a vivid red tattoo -- a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth -- the image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch World Cup: the Dark Mark. Voldemort examined it carefully, ignoring Wormtail's uncontrollable weeping.

"It is back," he said softly, "they will all have noticed it . . . and now, we shall see . . . now we shall know . . . "

He pressed his long white forefinger to the brand on Wormtail's arm.
The scar on Harry's forehead seared with a sharp pain again, and Wormtail let out a fresh howl; Voldemort removed his fingers from Wormtail's mark, and Harry saw that it had turned jet black.

A look of cruel satisfaction on his face, Voldemort straightened up, threw back his head, and stared around at the dark graveyard.

"How many will be brave enough to return when they feel it?" he whispered, his gleaming red eyes fixed upon the stars. "And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?"

Shudder - that is just a hideous scene. I can't help but notice again the value that Voldemort puts on bravery. To him, there are the brave and the foolish, and it harkens back to the beginning of the book when he goads Peter to "find his courage" or feel his "wrath."

I believe the main reason people continue to think that Peter could not be a DE is that he was in "courageous" Gryffindor. I admit that the first few times I read GoF, I sort of glossed over the Dark Mark scene in my mind, as if it couldn't be happening. But that is a false sense of security. The house a person is in is no indication of what they will do with the "gifts" within them, whether it is courage, like Peter, or "cunning" like Snape.

[Desraelda]

Thanks, SIP. I always appreciate when someone takes the time to make a correction with canon. You're right. That is a hideous scene.

I'm re-reading all five books before HBP comes out, and I'm not up to GoF, yet.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Desraelda

Thanks, SIP. I always appreciate when someone takes the time to make a correction with canon. You're right. That is a hideous scene.

I'm re-reading all five books before HBP comes out, and I'm not up to GoF, yet.

Desraelda: You're welcome! In re-reading that scene, it struck me that I probably was so shocked by all the other things that happened that I didn't even notice the Dark Mark thing going on. What's horrible is how slowly Voldemort goes through that while Peter is lying there half-bleeding to death with his hand cut off, Cedric's dead body is lying there, and Harry is in pain and screaming in his mind for the police to come. It is truly horrible, but that is why I know I missed the idea that Peter was a DE the first time around. I must say, I hate reading that scene again. It is going to be really difficult to watch it in the movie version, too.

[subtle science]

Nasty scene.

Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization.

Of course, there's Karkaroff, who doesn't answer because he's too afraid (the coward) of the consquences of having turned in so many fellow DEs, and there's Lucius Malfoy, who answers not because he's foolish, but because he actually enjoys this group....

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Chiev: Thank you for that song! I'll have to think about a song for Snape, lol. Would it be "King of Pain" or "I'll Be Watching You," lol.

"I'll Be Watching You" would match Snape's obession in catching rule-breakers--it's essentially a song about a stalker!

I've always really liked "King of Pain." The dichotomous imagery in it is really interesting to me, especially these lines:

. . .There's a butterfly trapped in a spider's web. . .

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

. . .There's a king on a throne with his eyes torn out
There's a blind man looking for a shadow of doubt. . .

Actually, when thinking about these songs for the characters, I like "King of Pain" for Lupin and "Moon over Bourbon Street" for Snape. There isn't the same kind of internal struggle in "King of Pain," only acceptance of how things are, some of which is unpleasant: a butterfly being devoured by a spider, a good man transformed into a beast. In "Moon Over Bourbon Street," there is a struggle with instinct: a vampire struggling not to kill a woman he holds in regard, a man struggling to overcome his feelings about the past to fight for the greater good.

Originally Posted by grrliz

At first I was thinking it might make things worse, given Harry's attitude towards Snape after Sirius' death, but at the same time if Snape did attend Sirius' memorial I think it could be taken as an absolutely huge gesture of goodwill on Snape's part. Snape and Harry need to find common ground at some point and learn to work together rather than against each other, and I think Snape coming to the memorial servce would help in that. It would show that although he disliked Sirius, he still held Sirius at a certain level of respect and also that he is supporting Harry through this tumultuous and confusing time.

I was also thinking along these lines, but decided to pose the question instead. I don't think Harry would appreciate it right away, though. I think it's something Harry would have to really think about before accepting it's significance, given his reaction to Snape at the very end of OotP. In fact, Snape would probably have to be prepared for an outburst from Harry, if he attended such a memorial service--Harry blames him and would likely feel Snape's presence at the service would be disingenuous.

Originally Posted by grrliz

That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..."

It definitely would negate any progress Snape might make in attending a memorial service for Sirius! I'm not sure whether or not he could help himself, though. . .we'll have to find out in HBP.

Originally Posted by grrliz

Heh, nice! PLus Anne Rice has a huge Gary Oldman fixation, so score more points for my interests!

I didn't even know that!

Originally Posted by grrliz

Or perhaps his problem is that he did accept his penchant for the Dark Arts, which led him down Voldemort's path, and what Snape is struggling to come to terms with is not the acceptance of his interest in the Dark Arts, but the acceptance of things he might have done because of his interest in the Dark Arts?

Yes, I'm thinking this is really a large part of what Snape is about. This is where the self-loathing comes in, too. As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest. If so, it follows that Snape would regret his life as a Death Eater. If he is attempting to redeem himself (which I believe he is), he must have some self-loathing for his past and the apsects of himself that led him to that past.

Originally Posted by subtle

Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization.

Yes, that is an interesting inversion. Tying in to our discussion from the "Dev of Sev," it really has the most to do with motivation. Whether or not the it's more brave to return or not to return depends on the motivation for the decision.

That whole sequence is really shockingly horrific.

[Auror Williamson]

The scene is truly magnificent in its quality, let there be no doubt. The problem lies within just how well Newell will direct the scene true to the book, and just how Fiennes can finesse the part of Voldemort and pull of the sinister qualities of a madman who is willing to hurt his own supporters for his own sake.

Wit that in mind, its only logical that Peter Pettigrew could only be a DE. Let's look at the situation:

1. Dark Mark branded on his arm. Only Voldemort's closest supporters aka Death Eaters are branded (no pun intended) with the mark of alliegance.

2. Pettigrew tipped off the location of the Potters'.

3. He framed his own death to incriminate a friend.

4. He attempted to kill Remus and Sirius at the end of PoA.

5. He returned to Voldemort in GoF instead of fleeing as Karkaroff chose to do.

That seems like some pretty worthy marks of a DE allegiance to me. ....either that or Voldemort's got one heck of a mind spell on him and thus Pettigrew really has no idea what he's doing -- highly doubtful to me.

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest. If so, it follows that Snape would regret his life as a Death Eater. If he is attempting to redeem himself (which I believe he is), he must have some self-loathing for his past and the apsects of himself that led him to that past.

I agree with what you’ve said here. I do believe Snape switched sides because he realized that what he was doing was wrong, even if it might have looked good in the beginning. I’m thinking that Snape’s deciding to leave Voldemort’s service probably came at a time where Voldemort asked him to do something he didn’t want to, such as participate in killing someone or making a certain potion that would have gruesome effects. Obviously, Snape let on to Voldemort about his change of heart (like Regulus Black seemed to have)- he likely covered it up using Occlumency. I’m thinking he may have turned to Dumbledore for help, since he was the leader of the Order and since Dumbledore is the kind of person that radiates trustworthiness. This could have been when Dumbledore arranged things so that Snape would spy on Voldemort as retribution for his actions, and so Snape would have always appeared as a loyal servant to Voldemort on the surface. But in reality, he was loyal to Dumbledore. I see this as the only reason Snape is still alive- because he never let on that he wasn’t completely 100% loyal to Voldemort. Otherwise, I think Snape would have ended up just like Regulus.

Judging from this, I do believe that Snape probably does harbor feelings of self-loathing and regret for being a Death Eater. It makes sense since Snape always follows Dumbledore’s orders and no matter how cruel he may seem on the outside, he has always shown by many of his actions that he will help Harry when he needs it. Snape’s actions strongly suggest that he has a sincere desire to redeem himself and that he truly regrets his past, but I do believe he is coming to terms with what he's done by helping out with the Order and spying on Voldemort. The fact that he has placed himself in a position of great danger to his person says to me that he is willing to do whatever is necessary to show that he wants to be redeemed and that he wants to do what's right.

[silver ink pot]

Auror: I think there is certainly littl doubt that Peter is a DE!

Originally Posted by Chiev

I've always really liked "King of Pain."

That is one of my favorites, because of the natural imagery. It reminds me of the poetry of Ted Hughes, in which nature is not just dormant and in the background, but at war with itself. Sting is a great poet! Although my all-time favorite Sting song is the rockin' "Synchronicity Part 2" with the juxtaposed awful family life/city nightmare and the Loch Ness Monster rising in the water! I'll never forget hearing that song on the radio for the first time and just being stunned by it!

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics...ZjjriPYbkuc%3D

Were The Police really "Aurors"?

Mrs. Flamel was writing on the Dev of Sev thread about Malfoy meaning "Bad Faith" and that made me wonder if Snape or Harry might be an example of "Blind Faith." I was thinking of the British rock group of that name, but then I just came across this lyric by Sting, that talks more negatively about blind faith being the sail of our ship as we go through history. So maybe you have balance faith and reason - more the Luna/Hermione dichotomy.

Both of the following songs made me think of Snape being a spy, because they talk of throwing away the past and using up all your lies:

http://www.absolutelyric.com/lyrics/...ch_us_nothing/

History Will Teach Us Nothing

If we seek solace in the prisons of the distant past
Security in human systems we're told will always always last
Emotions are the sail and blind faith is the mast
Without a breath of real freedom we're getting nowhere fast

If God is dead and an actor plays his part
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse

Sooner or later just like the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later just like the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away

History will teach us nothing
History will teach us nothing

Our written history is a catalogue of crime
The sordid and the powerful, the architects of time
The mother of invention, the oppression of the mild
The constant fear of scarcity, aggression as its child

Sooner or later. . .

Convince an enemy, convince him that he's wrong
Is to win a bloodless battle where victory is long
A simple act of faith
In reason over might
To blow up his children will only prove him right
History will teach us nothing

Sooner or later the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away

History will teach us nothing
History will teach us nothing

Know you human rights
Be what you come here for . . .

Then there is this song, which seems appropriate for the books as well, philosophically:

http://www.absolutelyric.com/lyrics/...be_your_pilot/

Let your soul be your pilot

Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

When you're down and they're counting
When your secrets all found out
When your troubles take to mounting
When the map you have leads you to doubt
When there's no information
And the compass turns to nowhere that you know well

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

When the doctors failed to heal you
When no medicine chest can make you well
When no counsel leads to comfort
When there are no more lies they can tell
No more useless information
And the compass spins
The compass spins between heaven and hell

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

And your eyes turn towards the window pane
To the lights upon the hill
The distance seems so strange to you now
And the dark room seems so still

Let your pain be my sorrow
Let your tears be my tears too
Let your courage be my model
That the north you find will be true
When there's no information
And the compass turns to nowhere that you know well

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
Let your soul guide you
Let your soul guide you upon your way...

[Wandering Bard]

Originally Posted by grrliz

While I agree that it's not terribly likely that Tom Riddle was Slytherin's first male heir in a millenium, it reminded me of how Ginny is the first female Weasley in quite some time. We don't know how long it's been since there's been a girl born to that particular family (certainly not a thousand years, I hope!) but I thought that parallel was interesting.

Being the heir of Slytherin isn't just about blood. In order to open the chamber, the heir needed to be a parselmouth. Parselmouths are very rare, according to Hermione (I think), so it's possible that not all of Slytherin's descendents could do it. As well as that, the heir had to embrace the slytherin ideology: they had to want to kill muggles. Voldemort is only the heir of Slytherin because he opened the chamber. Perhaps previous heirs tried, but failed.

[shaggydogstail]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I wouldn’t think that Snape would attend the memorial service. He wouldn’t need to for himself and he wouldn’t need to for Harry’s sake, would he? I don’t see how it would do any good.

I agree. Snape never liked Sirius and the feeling was mutual. I think he'd feel like a hypocrit attending, with justification. His presence would only make both Harry and himself feel hideously uncomfortable.

Though I'm having a really odd vision now of meeting of the Order in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place and Dumbledore starting/ending the meeting with a minute's silence for their fallen comrade. Snape is feeling positive waves of of resentment coming off Harry and feeling so awkward he is praying for the ground to open and swallow him up.

Originally posted by Chiev
Lupin’s character is a dichotomy—a gentle soul who becomes a ferocious beast on a regular basis—but, is Lupin struggling with his nature? Or does he accept it? We don’t get any of Lupin’s inner narrative, but he seems pretty accepting to me.

Yes, I think he has accepted it. Obviously he doesn't like it, but he has learnt to live with it. I think the reason he has come to accept it so well is partly due to his friendship with James and Sirius (all right, and the rat ) The way he talks about their reaction in PoA is very moving - it clearly meant a great deal to him. He even talks about being able to enjoy himself during his transformations, and the influence of his friends as animagi helped him to keep his mind and they were able to have adventures together. Both these things - that his friends would stand by him and that he could get something positive out of his transformations - would doubtless have seemed impossible to him before he met the other Marauders. Knowing that his friends still loved him, lycanthropy and all, probably helped Lupin to developed his quietly self-assured nature and gave him hope for a normal life, thus preventing him from becoming bitter.

Originally posted by Chiev
In contrast, I see Snape’s internal conflict as much more similar to that of the vampire. Even JKR’s comment about Dumbledore not allowing Snape to teach DADA suggests this. Snape must struggle with his attraction to the Dark Arts—his inner beast. Snape must struggle with his bitterness, also—he can’t let it get in the way of the greater cause of the Order, although he failed in this when he refused Harry further Occlumency. (Still, perfectly understandable, IMO.) Does Snape hate what he is?

I think he does. Whilst Snape is confident about his talents and abilities, I don't think he likes himself as a person. Snape possesses some admirable character traits, such as courage and strength of conviction, but he is neither warm nor likeable and I think he knows this. Snape, to put it mildly, has issues.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
Chiev: Thank you for that song! I'll have to think about a song for Snape, lol. Would it be "King of Pain" or "I'll Be Watching You," lol.

Oddly enough I was listening to 'I'll Be Watching You' for the first time in ages the other day, and I'd forgotten just how sinister it is - it's a great song but it really creeps me out!

I always think of Snape when I hear 'Can't Stand Me Now' by The Libertines, though only some of the lyrics are applicable;

An ending fitting for the start
You twisted and tore our love apart
Your light fingers through the dark
Shattered the lamp into darkness, they cast us all
No, you've got it the wrong way round
You shut me up, and blamed it on the *****
Cornered the boy, kicked out at the world
The world kicked back a lot ****ing harder now
[...]
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now

Censored for non-family friendly content. Unusually the song is a male/male duet (Pete Doherty and Carl Barat), which leads me to picture it as a Snape and Sirius number (or for that matter Snape and Harry, Snape and James). But Sirius offers a better companion for Snape's mental imbalances! Well who else can match Snape for issues?

Originally posted by SIP
Shudder - that is just a hideous scene. I can't help but notice again the value that Voldemort puts on bravery. To him, there are the brave and the foolish, and it harkens back to the beginning of the book when he goads Peter to "find his courage" or feel his "wrath."

Yes, it is truly chilling, but far the most frightening part of any of the books for me. The bit with Voldemort wondering how many will be 'brave enough to return', as well as telling Peter to 'find his courage' remind me of Sirius' comment about Voldemort being the 'biggest bully on the playground'. A common tactic for bullies is to attempt to coerce their victims into inappropriate behaviour, such as drug-taking, underage sex, vandalism, shoplifting and so on. They will goad their victims for being too 'chicken' if they don't want to do it, but the bravest (and hardest) thing to do is to turn away from the bullies themselves! As subtle says, the bravest thing for the DEs to do might be to ignore the call.

Originally posted by grrliz
That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..."

Yes, that would clearly be wrong and bad. Will Snape be able to stop himself coming out with snarky remarks about Sirius and making Harry see him as more of a git than ever? One would hope so, but I sometimes think he has a bit of a compulsion when it comes to dissing James - he must know it is inappropriate, but these nasty comments just keep popping out...

[Auror Williamson]

Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?

[grrliz]

Originally Posted by Auror Williamson

Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?

Funny you should bring that up ... Did the Sorting Hat suggest putting Tom Riddle in Gyffindor?

[silver ink pot]

Though I'm having a really odd vision now of meeting of the Order in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place and Dumbledore starting/ending the meeting with a minute's silence for their fallen comrade. Snape is feeling positive waves of of resentment coming off Harry and feeling so awkward he is praying for the ground to open and swallow him up

Snape is praying? Well, then . . . that's ok, isn't is?

I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house, and Harry will hear that little voice in his head (that sounds like Hermione) telling him that Snape is right and that Sirius didn't have to die, and besides that, Kreacher and the Malfoys are just as much to blame as anyone, not to mention Bella and Voldemort.

[HermioneLuna]

Originally Posted by shaggydogstail

One would hope so, but I sometimes think he has a bit of a compulsion when it comes to dissing James - he must know it is inappropriate, but these nasty comments just keep popping out...

I think that, in Snape's mind, he's able to get back at James by insulting him to Harry. During school, I doubt Snape had much opportunity to verbally confront the Marauders. All their fights were most likely similar to what happened in Snape's Worst Memory, though not likely to be that extreme.

If Snape had insulted any of the Marauders, it might have escalated, unlike in the case of Harry and Draco where it's almost always solely verbal fighting. Therefore, to Snape, he's able to finally call James arrogant and so forth. I think he gets some satisfaction out of it because Harry and James look so much alike that, to Snape, it's as good as saying it to James.

Also, there's the fact that Snape is able to degrade James without any verbal assault coming back on him because Harry has yet to call Snape anything truly insulting to his face. In this situation, Snape has the power.

Add to that the fact that Snape can badmouth James to his own son, and I think he doesn't care if it's inappropriate. It's just something he feels the need to do.

[grrliz]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house, and Harry will hear that little voice in his head (that sounds like Hermione) telling him that Snape is right and that Sirius didn't have to die, and besides that, Kreacher and the Malfoys are just as much to blame as anyone, not to mention Bella and Voldemort.

Hehehe, Angry Young Man Harry . Anyway, I think if Snape does say something of that nature to Harry (which I think would be incredibly crass beyond all belief) I don't think he'll necessarily believe him because Snape isn't exactly right. Sirius left the house three times during OotP, and when taking into consideration the vast amount of time he spent there, I'd say percentage-wise and proportionally that Sirius spent a good deal of his time obeying orders and staying home. Three days out of nearly a year isn't so bad and I think it hardly builds a case for arguing that Sirius just wouldn't litsen to anyone.

[shaggydogstail]

Originally Posted by grrliz

Hehehe, Angry Young Man Harry . Anyway, I think if Snape does say something of that nature to Harry (which I think would be incredibly crass beyond all belief) I don't think he'll necessarily believe him because Snape isn't exactly right. Sirius left the house three times during OotP, and when taking into consideration the vast amount of time he spent there, I'd say percentage-wise and proportionally that Sirius spent a good deal of his time obeying orders and staying home. Three days out of nearly a year isn't so bad and I think it hardly builds a case for arguing that Sirius just wouldn't litsen to anyone.

I agree. Apportioning any blame to Sirius for his own death because he left the house would be the absolute worst thing Snape could do! Apart from anything else, there is the question of why Sirius left the house - it was to come to Harry's aid - how could Harry ever blame him for that?

The best thing Snape could do in that situation would be to say that he did all he could to get help that night, and he didn't want Sirius to put himself in danger. He could admit that he didn't like Sirius and remind Harry that despite this, as they are both member of the Order he didn't want Sirius to die, that he tried to prevent it, and that he is sorry that it happened. That approach might go some way to diffusing Harry's anger, whereas criticising Sirius for trying to save Harry's life would simply inflame it.

BTW Liz, I only remember Sirius leaving the house twice, once to accompany Harry to King's Cross and once to go to the DoM - unless you are counting using the Floo network to talk to Harry in the fire. Have I forgotten one?

[grrliz]

Yeah, I'm counting the Floo network one, although I suppose technically only his head left the house.

[asrivathsan]

LOL

All the songs are great! Could anyone help me, please? I wanted to know how and where one can submit his or her poetry.

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by shaggy

Snape possesses some admirable character traits, such as courage and strength of conviction, but he is neither warm nor likeable and I think he knows this.

I’m not sure Snape cares about this, though, and I think it’s a bit different from self-loathing. It’s why other people don’t like Snape, but I would think Snape’s self-loathing is internal, from how he feels about the deficiencies within himself, not external, from how he feels about others’ view of him.

Originally Posted by HermioneLuna

I think that, in Snape's mind, he's able to get back at James by insulting him to Harry. During school, I doubt Snape had much opportunity to verbally confront the Marauders. All their fights were most likely similar to what happened in Snape's Worst Memory, though not likely to be that extreme.

I don’t think it’s as simple as this. If this was the reason, why would Snape have waited 2 ½ years before making his comments about James? Recently, I’ve been thinking that Snape’s intention is to insult Harry, not James. Snape doesn’t think much of James, so, from his point of view, comparing Harry to him is not flattering to Harry. Of course, since Harry doesn't share Snape's point of view, he doesn't interpret it this way.

Originally Posted by shaggy

The best thing Snape could do in that situation would be to say that he did all he could to get help that night, and he didn't want Sirius to put himself in danger. He could admit that he didn't like Sirius and remind Harry that despite this, as they are both member of the Order he didn't want Sirius to die, that he tried to prevent it, and that he is sorry that it happened.

I think this would be completely out of character for Snape. I would expect Snape to remain silent before he explained himself to Harry.

There may be a shift in their relationship, though. After reading OotP, I looked hard to see if there was any sign of Snape treating Harry differently because of Occlumency lessons or because of Sirius’s death. I didn’t find anything, but now I’m wondering about the lack of something. In the last interaction between them, Harry tells Snape he is deciding what curse to use on Malfoy and Snape responds by deducting points from Gryffindor. However, isn’t that a change in character for Snape? Wasn’t that a prime opportunity for Snape to note how arrogant and like his father (or like Sirius) Harry is? And, he doesn’t do it. . .perhaps it is some progress?

[skyph]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

CLKGinny: The Feudal System lived on in England with servants who served "Lords" and other wealthy people "on the land." I'm not sure I understand all the implications of people who sort of "belonged" to great estates, but it really was similar to slavery. Yes, they got paid wages - extremely small wages - certainly not enough to go anywhere else and start over. If you were thrown out, then you either have to find another job "without references" (almost impossible) or you had to leave your home and go to London, or if you were too old to work, you had to go to the poorhouse and die there of disease or malnutrition.

SIP, I agree serfs under feudalism are rather similar to slaves (except for the right to leave), as compared to modern servants known today.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Interesting that the word Marauders only comes up when a historian is writing about Viking invasions or Atilla the Hun!

I think marauders are also similar to outlaws/pirates, constantly roaming and raiding. For the boys in Potterverse, I believe when they termed themselves Marauders, they meant the wandering part of marauding. Remus recalled they roamed the grounds of Hogwarts and Hogsmeade where others never venture, and subsequently created the Marauder's Map. Of course, they might have "raided the kitchen" when they approached the house-elves for some good food, like Fred and George.

Originally Posted by HermioneLuna

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. In Order of the Phoenix, we see a man who is a werewolf, yet never has any visitors when Harry, his friends, and the Order are around. If Lupin were to fall ill and be hospitalized, there would be quite the group surrounding him. However, this poor man had no one to keep him company. Granted, we don't know about his life outside of the hospital room, but it still seems rather odd to me that almost everyone else seemed to have visitors either present with them or planning to be with them, while the lonely werewolf was all alone.

I think there are many people who think like Umbridge on the matter. That because werewolves have an affliction, they are somehow less than human, which is utter rubbish.

Agree, and I'd like to hear Remus's protests against the werewolf legislation.

Originally Posted by grrliz

It would show that although he disliked Sirius, he still held Sirius at a certain level of respect and also that he is supporting Harry through this tumultuous and confusing time.

That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..."

Anyway, I doubt he'll turn up if there's a memorial, but if he does, I hope he'll refrain from his "snaps of Snape" for the sake of the future of the Order.

Originally Posted by subtle science

Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization.

From Voldemort's POV, it's "brave" and "foolish", the old POV thing.

Originally Posted by Auror Williamson

Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?

Welcome, Auror Williamson !

My opinion is Tom would still be sorted into Slytherin because he's more ambitious and cunning than brave. I think he's also very afraid of death although I'm not sure this fear comes in at which point, before or after he gained power. Usually, tyrants fear death after they obtained great power, wealth and didn't want to lose them be it through their enemies or death.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

"I'll Be Watching You" would match Snape's obession in catching rule-breakers--it's essentially a song about a stalker!

Imagining a s-talking Snape, "Run Harry run ! ".

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest.

We don't really know the real reasons why Snape left and whether he divulged all his reasons to Dumbledore. While I tend to believe a reason Snape left was because he couldn't commit the evil deeds Voldemort planned for his Deatheaters and when he realized the extent Voldemort would go to (similar to the Blacks' opinions), I'm not sure whether Snape forsake other ideologies such as pureblood issues and the use of Dark Arts that the DEs believe in.

Originally Posted by shaggydogstail

Yes, I think he has accepted it. Obviously he doesn't like it, but he has learnt to live with it. I think the reason he has come to accept it so well is partly due to his friendship with James and Sirius (all right, and the rat ) The way he talks about their reaction in PoA is very moving - it clearly meant a great deal to him. He even talks about being able to enjoy himself during his transformations, and the influence of his friends as animagi helped him to keep his mind and they were able to have adventures together. Both these things - that his friends would stand by him and that he could get something positive out of his transformations - would doubtless have seemed impossible to him before he met the other Marauders. Knowing that his friends still loved him, lycanthropy and all, probably helped Lupin to developed his quietly self-assured nature and gave him hope for a normal life, thus preventing him from becoming bitter.

I think their friendship helped Remus a lot in his life, giving him the strength he needed as they did not abandon him after discovering he's a werewolf and it must have been even more painful to lose the last Marauder of his true friends in OOTP.

Originally Posted by shaggydogstail

But Sirius offers a better companion for Snape's mental imbalances! Well who else can match Snape for issues?

Sirius has issues ? Seriously, you must be kidding...

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house

Given Snape's persistent tauntings about Sirius "hiding in his mother's house", I tend to believe either he lied to Dumbledore about telling Sirius to stay when he contacted Sirius or it goes along the lines of

"Hey Angry Old-man Gary erm.. Black, your stupid godson without the brains for Occlumency has been tricked by my Lord erm.. the Dark Lord. He believed you're captured and brought a gang of rebelling misfits to save you. How extraordinarily like you your godson is, now he'll die the way his father died, all BECAUSE of YOU. Tell the werewolf and the others to go to MoM and save that arrogant brat. Since you can do nothing useful, don't leave your hidey-hole; you can brief Dumbledore later. At least, this time you can feel somewhat involved." *Snape sneered*

Originally Posted by asrivathsan

All the songs are great! Could anyone help me, please? I wanted to know how and where one can submit his or her poetry.

asrivathsan, is it related to the Harry Potter books ? Perhaps, you can OWL an admin/mod to ask them.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

After reading OotP, I looked hard to see if there was any sign of Snape treating Harry differently because of Occlumency lessons or because of Sirius’s death. I didn’t find anything, but now I’m wondering about the lack of something. In the last interaction between them, Harry tells Snape he is deciding what curse to use on Malfoy and Snape responds by deducting points from Gryffindor. However, isn’t that a change in character for Snape? Wasn’t that a prime opportunity for Snape to note how arrogant and like his father (or like Sirius) Harry is? And, he doesn’t do it. . .perhaps it is some progress?

Snape has been cold towards Harry after the Pensieve dive, avoiding any extra words so I'm not sure it's "a change in character"; he has already "changed" his way of dealing with Harry since the dive.