Development of Snape's character through OotP, v.3

[Norbertha]

Welcome to version 3 of "Development of Snape's character through OotP". Here we discuss various aspects of everybody's favourite Potions Master in all five books.

Version 2

Version 1

New posters:

These are the last few posts from version two:

Originally Posted by subtle science

Snape's eyes do glint during the same Occlumency lesson during which Harry lies about the DoM dream and gets the narrowed eyes; shortly after that comes the bit about the job:

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."
"No--that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
"Yes, Potter," he said. his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again...." (p. 591).

This is odd....Snape starts off, irritated with Harry. Then Harry snaps at him, and, for a moment, Harry thinks he's in biiigg trouble. What I noticed, in looking at this again, is the staring at each other: Harry doesn't put it together (neither did I, until right now--or, at least, I'm making a speculative guess): Snape's checking him out, to see how much he knows about Snape's job. He is angry, until he realizes that Harry fired off a somewhat lucky shot.

In the "you have no subtlety" part, I do think Snape is annoyed with Harry: Harry has, on that page alone, had to be reminded to call Snape by his title and interrupted him twice, including when Snape is in the midst of explaining Legilimency: if Harry had kept quiet, he would've heard the whole explanation, but instead he plunges ahead with the wrong interpretation. I don't think this is Snape being really angry--just annoyed at the litany of disrespect and arrogance (as he sees it).

I probably should've included the actual line from GoF when Snape takes his leave of Dumbledore. I've said before that I think Snape's reaction here--and Dumbledore's worried look--come from the fact that Snape is about to make contact with Voldemort and Snape had better be bloody good at Occlumency. Snape is going off to the ultimate test. If he fails, he won't be back. JKR combines the Occlumency/spy adjectives with the emotion-indicating verb:

He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, dark eyes glittered strangely (p. 713).

That really seems to underscore the earlier idea about not 'kindling the fire'--and this would directly relate to what he tells Harry in Occlumency: to control his emotions. It seems pretty clear to me now that that is exactly what Snape is doing in the books every time he's "inscrutable" or "unfathomable" or his eyes are "cold."

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Why both the indicators for emotion and no emotion? Are you thinking that Snape is moving from blocking his emotion to letting some emotion come to the front? Or are you thinking that the emotion is so strong, Snape can't quite control it there? (I wouldn't think the latter, or how would he control himself in front of Voldemort?)

Originally Posted by subtle science

I think the GoF combination description (sounds like something you'd order off the McDonald's menu!) reflects exactly what Snape feels right then: nervous/fearful/anticipatory and yet shutting those emotions down. He's literally between--leaving Dumbledore, but not yet at Voldemort's side--so the description is between as well. In other words, he's human enough to be afraid, and that shows in the "glittered," but he's gearing up the spy and going "cold" and "dark."

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

The "closing down" of emotions reminds me of PoA, when they are in Snape's office and Lupin comes in and sees the map. Harry notices a "closed look" in his eyes. That look is the reason many people wonder if Lupin practices Occlumency - he is trying to keep Snape from seeing what he knows about the map!

Also, in the GoF scene after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet, Chapter 17 "The Four Champions," Dumbledore and Snape both stare at Harry, and afterwards he feels as if his brain is "ransacked." There is quite a bit about Snape's reactions and expressions (sorry if you already discussed this):

“It's no one's fault but Potter's, Karkaroff,” said Snape softly. His black eyes were alight with malice. “Don't go blaming Dumbledore for Potter's determination to break rules. He has been crossing lines ever since he arrived here—”
“Thank you, Severus,” said Dumbledore firmly, and Snape went quiet, though his eyes still glinted malevolently through his curtain of greasy black hair.
Professor Dumbledore was now looking down at Harry, who looked right back at him, trying to discern the expression of the eyes behind the half-moon spectacles.
“Did you put your name into the Goblet of Fire, Harry?” he asked calmly.
“No,” said Harry. He was very aware of everybody watching him closely. Snape made a soft noise of impatient disbelief in the shadows.
“Did you ask an older student to put it into the Goblet of Fire for you?” said Professor Dumbledore, ignoring Snape.
“No,” said Harry vehemently.
“Ah, but of course 'e is lying!” cried Madame Maxime. Snape was now shaking his head, his lip curling.
“He could not have crossed the Age Line,” said Professor McGonagall sharply. “I am sure we are all agreed on that—”
“Dumbly-dorr must 'ave made a mistake wiz ze line,” said Madame Maxime, shrugging.
“It is possible, of course,” said Dumbledore politely.
“Dumbledore, you know perfectly well you did not make a mistake!” said Professor McGonagall angrily. “Really, what nonsense! Harry could not have crossed the line himself, and as Professor Dumbledore believes that he did not persuade an older student to do it for him, I'm sure that should be good enough for everybody else!”
She shot a very angry look at Professor Snape.

Snape's sound of disbelief may not be that he doesn't believe Harry, but that he realizes Harry is telling the truth, and he can't believe it. Snape stays behind with McGonagall and Dumbledore, perhaps to compare notes on what they saw in Harry's mind? Harry leaves with Cedric:

. . . “So,” said Cedric, with a slight smile. “We're playing against each other again!”
“I s'pose,” said Harry. He really couldn't think of anything to say. The inside of his head seemed to be in complete disarray, as though his brain had been ransacked.
“So… tell me…” said Cedric as they reached the entrance hall, which was now lit only by torches in the absence of the Goblet of Fire. “How did you get your name in?”
“I didn't,” said Harry, staring up at him. “I didn't put it in. I was telling the truth.”

The feeling as if his brain has been tampered with is similar to his reaction after the first Occlumency lesson when he feels as if his "brain had been pulled out through his nose."

One other thing, a little different. We were talking about Molly's reactions to things being similar to Snape's, and today I was reading OotP and came across this passage that sounded very much like Snape's attitude towards Harry, with a Weasley spin on it:

Chapter 16, OotP, pg. 342 American:

(Susan Bones asks Harry if it is true that he can make a Corporeal Patronus.)

"The phrase stirred something in Harry's memory.
"Er -- you don't know Madam Bones, do you?" he asked.
The girl smiled.
"She's my auntie," she said, "I'm Susan Bones. She told me about your hearing. So -- is it really true? You make a stag Patronus?"
"Yes," said Harry.
"Blimey, Harry!" said Lee, looking deeply impressed. "I never knew that!"
"Mum told Ron not to spread it around," said Fred, grinning at Harry. "She said you got enough attention as it was.""She's not wrong," mumbled Harry and a couple of people laughed.

Snape has been telling Harry and everyone else that "fame isn't everything" since Book One. He's also been known to say that Harry had too much attention and that he should be treated like anyone else, as when he talks to Fudge in PoA. People take it to mean that he is either jealous of Harry or that he despises Harry, but I disagree.

Here, notice all the grinning and laughing - the point about "attention" seems obvious considering how people are in awe of Harry and his fame. Again, Molly is just saying the same thing as Snape, but Harry takes it totally differently from her and sees the wisdom in it. I would say if Molly is "not wrong" (awkward phrase, isn't it?), then perhaps Snape is "not wrong," or possibly "right."

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Dumbledore's eyes sometimes bore, too. When Harry is taken to Dumbledore's office after the attack on Justin, and Dumbledore asks if there is anything Harry would like to tell him, and Harry says no, I think Dumbledore's blue eyes bore into Harry's. But i don't have the book here, so I can't check right now.

Originally Posted by subtle science

In CoS, the phrasing is just that "Dumbledore considered him" (p. 208), when he asks Harry if he has anything to tell him. But I still think he's getting a dose of Legilimency...And, when younger Dumbledore talks to Tom Riddle, he's giving Riddle "exactly the kind of penetrating stare Harry knew so well" (p. 245).

And, silver ink pot--I think you're exactly right about the GoF scene (I had notes because Snape's eyes "glinted," but I didn't go anywhere with it). That was great! Harry definitely got double-teamed by Snape and Dumbledore; no wonder he feels as if someone's scrambled his brains...two someone's did! And your interpretation of Snape's 'disbelief' makes perfect sense.

I also like the Molly/Snape observation. First, I can't really comprehend the anti-Molly contingent. Yes, she can be overly mothering and annoying...but isn't that exactly what all mothers are, according to their teenaged kids? (silver ink pot--you can speak to this attitude!!) Of course, until the kid needs that mothering, and then Mom is a wonderful refuge--as Molly is at the end of GoF, when just being hugged by somebody is almost enough to make Harry finally break down. Molly just seems to me to be the ultimate Earth Mother. And she's not the only character in the books who tells Harry virtually the same thing that Snape does, only Harry's attitude changes everything about how both he and the reader perceive it (the Patronus/Occlumency contrast immediately springs to mind!).

One more thing about the fireplace, which I kept thinking about after signing off last night. It also goes back to our previous discussion of whether or not Snape is emotionally empty or if he, once upon a time, in his younger days, was quite emotional. I think our consensus was that all indications are Snape has learned to shut himself off--not that he is naturally lacking a "softer side" (not really how I was going to put it, but the coffee hasn't kicked in yet and the vocabulary is lagging this morning....). The fireplace becomes an excellent image for Snape: the banked fire is cold and dark, but it has the potential to blaze. I said somewhere before (I so lose track, between this and Decon!) that Snape's great capacity for hate and anger seems to hint at an equal capacity in the other direction...especially if one is going to adhere to that Gothic hero influence......

And--as for JKR's repetition...When I first started reading the books, I noticed the repeats. My first response was--well, it's a kid's book and she's repeating so it's all kept clear in the kids' minds as they read, especially asa the books are being published one at a time. To a certain extent, I still do think that's part of it. However, as the narrator of the books aged along with Harry, I realized that JKR was doing something else: she was assigning key phrases and adjectives to certain characters that had great significance for those characters. It's a literary technique that goes back ages--Homer uses it in the Illiad and the Odyssey: catchphrases that instantly identify the character and point up the important traits that figure into the plot.

[subtle science]

Thank you, Norbertha!

I'd venture a guess that version#1 might be available through the archives link now--it may have been part of the purge a bit ago. Random guesses!

[Scary personal information: at 4:45 AM, I head to the gym; by the time I'm here online, I'm consuming mass quanities of coffee to wake up. I do not wake my body up earlier, because then it would realize that I'm dragging it off to the gym at ungodly hours of what is still the night!!]

Okay--new version! Everybody else--wake up and post!

[mistymoon]

I like the idea of "catchphrases" being used to describe the characters.Has anyone written down all the phrases used to describe Snape?I'm starting my reread of the series before the release of HBP so i'll try to pay attention.

[clkginny]

The idea of Snape's understated responses to most things also puts me in mind of his school days nickname. Regardless of his ability at Occlumency/Ligilimency (although I do believe it is extremely relevant), I think the control he learned had a lot to do with being teased about his emotional responses. When we talk about his depth of passion that indicates that when he was young he had less control over his responses. As time went on, he must have learned that he was better off if he could lock all that up inside. If he didn't learn that lesson at home, the Marauders would have made sure he learned it at school. (I honestly think with what we saw in PoA and OoTP, that his temper was awful when he was young)

[subtle science]

mistymoon--Are you trying to send me back through all of the books again today??? : ) !

clkginny--I quite agree. While what we see of his childhood is his crying, you don't have the temper he has as an adult without its coming from somewhere: that's not something you develop as you get older. Not like the control. I, too, think that Snape learned at Hogwarts to wrap himself up pretty tightly and not let others see his emotions--whether it be hurt or anger. And from that, I would imagine, came the skill at Occlumency--I do wonder how he became aware that that branch of magic existed...was he looking for something that would help him attain control? It seems late in the game, but did Dumbledore teach it to him when he became the spy during the first war--that seems late but logical....?

[mistymoon]

Only if you want to....just kidding .I just thought maybe someone had already done this in the previous version of this thread.

[clkginny]

I've speculated before about whether Occlumency is a skill that you must have innate ability for (like Harry with flying), or if it is strictly a "must be learned" skill. I am currently leaning toward the "innate" ability side of things. It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore taught him to harness it, but I think the control that he tends to exhibit is a sign of the ability. I think the key to my idea is the fact that Snape became a "successful" spy. (By successful, I mean alive) Whatever the catalyst that led him to change sides, he would have had to hide from Voldemort. If he hadn't learned Occlumency from Dumbledore before that time, that indicates that he would have enough innate ability to hide his thoughts long enough to recieve "formal" training.

[James Macca]

i think occlumency is innate as it has a lot to do with the character of the person..
Harry, for example, listens to his emotions a great deal, and im not just talking about anger, as may have bene the case with snape in the days of the marauders.. But he acts blidly out of emtion and as dumbledore says at the end of OotP.. it is his greatest strength..
The witch or wizard has to have the innate ability to be able to maintain control of their feelings in order to ,aster occlumency and probably legilimency as well..
But harry gets stronger when hes angry, or afraid, or desperate for any particular emotional reason.. For example, the uber patronus in PoA and the cruciatis curse in OotP..
Bellatrix basically says, "wow, that wouldve been good if u were more of a vindictive person.." i even think she admires his strength in casting it..
haha, so yes, i believe it is innate and can be learned only to an extent..

[severa78]

Wow! Version 3!

Round of chocolate for everyone as a celebration! Double chocolate for Subtle for being the "Queen Bee" and for the extra work she just put in with all those quotes of eyes and lips!

Now back to business.

Chiev and Norbertha, thank for liking my point on fire..

I like the discussion of the nature of Occlumency. I think it is both an ability and a skill. Just like flying on a broomstick, you can have natural talent, but you can get better by training.
I can see Snape having a very good natural talent born out of his days in school, but then needing to sort of fine-tune it to make him a skilled Occlumens (Skilled enough to survive a walk-out from LV).

There was something else I was going to say, but with the thread change it got lost in my mind somewhere.. I'll post when I'll catch it!

[silver ink pot]

Thank you, Norbertha, for letting us start over!

I'll repeat my fireworks for Subtle Science who had 360 posts on the last thread! You rock, Queen Bee!

I also brought along some Chocolate Frogs from the Deconstructing Marauders Thread.:

In relation to the Snape/fireplace image, which I love ~ what about the scene in Book One in which Hermione "sets Snape on fire"? In doing so, Hermione sets about a course of events which thwarts Quirrelmort and helps Harry win the big game. Also, it sets up the fact that Snape was the one trying to save Harry's life.

Hermione is often associated with Fire. She burns a path through the snow in one of the books to get to Hagrid's Hut. She makes fire in a jar in Book One. She can "dry clothes" with her wand. Maybe this is a clue to seemingly "cold" Snape.

Hermione is totally logical and lives for knowledge, but that means all kinds of knowledge. I was reading OotP last night and I'm so impressed with the fact that JKR doesn't make Hermione a one-dimensional know-it-all. She is an "emotionally intelligent" know-it-all. Her in-depth explanation of Cho Chang's feelings, and her rebuke of Ron that "not all of us have the emotional range of a teaspoon" is so Snapish that I think it is a clue to his character. I don't believe he is "empty" at all - in fact, the opposite. We just don't know everything yet, and that will be a lesson for Harry.

We have the "Goblet of Fire," which is empty except for every four years when it bursts into flame for the Triwizard Tournament (which becomes the "Quad-Wizard Tournament.") It is another "empty" vessel that gets set on fire.

Then there is the whole image of the Phoenix, whose "Order" Snape is a member of. The Phoenix has to catch fire in order to be reborn, and healing is connected with the eyes of the bird. Since JKR mentions Snape's eyes so often, and I think he looks at Harry as much as any other grown-up in the books, I believe that there is some healing going on, or will go on, between Harry and Snape.

We have the nickname "Snivellus" and the memory of crying - another Phoenix connection. And my goodness, think of all the crying people in OotP - Molly over her "woes," Madame Trelawney over her persecution, Cho over Cedric, Marietta over her face, Hannah Abbot over exams, and by the end of the book, Dumbledore and Harry himself. I believe JKR is foreshadowing the sad things yet to come with all this crying. But she is also letting us know who has the depth and who doesn't. Edited to Add: Hagrid cries in every book, and he also soothes people and animals who are crying. He is also a parallel to Snape in that he is turned upside down by a "bigger giant" in the Chapter Hagrid's Tale.

Only Luna and Hermione don't seem to cry, although Hermione "fakes" crying to fool Umbridge. Yet we know they are both full of feelings and they both explain emotional things to Harry, things about death, women, bullying, and getting over things (as Luna says, "have some pudding.")

I see Snape in a similar way - he can talk about "clearing your mind of emotion" because he has to do that so HE KNOWS. Remember in GoF, when Fred and George say that about Barty Crouch, who is teaching them all those curses in class? "He Knows" about the Dark Arts - indeed he does. But what does Snape tell Harry? He tells him how the Dark Lord will "make short work of him" if he "wears his heart on his sleeve." He isn't talking about the Dark Arts, but about what "he knows" -- how to hide feelings from Voldemort.

Also, he has literally been "burned" by Voldemort. He has been "branded" with the Death Head, and it "burns black" as he tells Fudge in GoF. Harry has been "burned" by Voldemort, too, with his lightning-bolt scar. I don't think either one of them wants anyone else to go through their same experiences. Harry even agrees to teach the DA, not so much because of OWL exams, but because he realizes the others might not stand a chance in a fight. That is so similar to what Snape tells Harry - "he'll make short work of you, Potter"!

Well, I think I'm on fire this morning, lol. I never meant to write all that. My "muse" is flowing, or something. Must be the Chocolate Frogs plus Folgers Dark Roast Coffee.

(And I have my coffee without going to the gym, because I'm a slob, unlike Subtle, lol. All I've done today is sit in my car in the rain at bus stops and traffic jams, convincing children that there are still two weeks of school left and they have to keep working. My pep talks go over like Snape giving extra homework during Easter Break. )

[subtle science]

I think my post count verifies the fact that, at least on this thread, I never shut up.....

Welcome, James Macca.

I lean toward the innate ability theory as well. Clearly, one can be taught it--as Harry is--but Snape says it's similar to the skill Harry used in throwing off the Imperius curse, so he and Dumbledore must think Harry's got the ability, too. And Snape, as clkginny and severa78 point out, had to be able to hide his true feelings from Voldemort when the idea first came to him that he wanted out of the DEs; it makes sense, then, that either Snape knew Occlumency before he went to Dumbledore, or that Dumbledore refined the ability that Snape already possessed--rather as Snape is trying to direct Harry in his lessons. So--if Snape had the talent, but not the refinement before, did he know that such a branch of magic existed, or did he learn that from Dumbledore? A bit that occurs to me is that the Occlumency also fits in with Snape's developing the ability to use wnadless magic, too--as we've discussed before, he can't do it in SWM, but he can by PS/SS. He's also none too emotionally controlled in SWM--so, is that episode the trigger point of his learning these types of magic? I'd vote yes.

And thanks to Norbertha and Chievrefueil for their avatar suggestions. I couldn't decide on my own at all--I mean, pick from the entire world on the internet...too many choices!!!! Heck, their offer of three choices almost caused me to melt down...................(then I figured I could always save the other two...)

[silver ink pot]

If anyone wants an avatar of anything, I love to make them! I have a Photobucket account too, so I can give you the URL also to make it easy. Same with Signatures - just tell me what you want a picture of, and I'll look for it and resize it.

[subtle science]

silver, silver, silver ink pot--Did I not just say that a choice of three--which, to a normal person, is not much--nearly caused me to have a breakdown??? Get thee behind me!

I love your 'fire' post. Wow. What's really interesting are the breakdowns of the usually controlled people--Harry, Molly, and Dumbledore. Harry and Molly may shout, but they're not teary people; typically, they're stoic. In contrast, Hermione and Luna are quite open about all of their feelings--they don't go to extremes as Molly and Harry may do with their temper losses (another parallel to Snape)...or even as Cho does with her endless waterworks. Hermione only cries in PS/SS, when she thinks she has no friends...Hmmm. And Luna is blithely composed; I love her last scene in OotP, when she's trying to gather her belongings, and the calm way she speaks about the other students' mindless, unthinking, petty cruelty to her.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by subtle science

silver, silver, silver ink pot--Did I not just say that a choice of three--which, to a normal person, is not much--nearly caused me to have a breakdown??? Get thee behind me!

So sorry to pelt you with avatars first thing in the morning!

I love your 'fire' post. Wow. What's really interesting are the breakdowns of the usually controlled people--Harry, Molly, and Dumbledore. Harry and Molly may shout, but they're not teary people; typically, they're stoic.

Thank you, and great point about the stoicism! You could really write an essay about both Stoicism and Spartanism in many of the characters. Snape is a perfect example of both traits - again with an unlit fireplace. He lives without the "comforts" of life.

In contrast, Hermione and Luna are quite open about all of their feelings--they don't go to extremes as Molly and Harry may do with their temper losses (another parallel to Snape)...or even as Cho does with her endless waterworks. Hermione only cries in PS/SS, when she thinks she has no friends...Hmmm.

Yes! To me, the material point is that Hermione is capable of crying, when she is hurt deeply enough or when she is truly moved. Otherwise, she lets things roll off her back.

And Luna is blithely composed; I love her last scene in OotP, when she's trying to gather her belongings, and the calm way she speaks about the other students' mindless, unthinking, petty cruelty to her.

Luna is a rare gem, absolutely! She has such resignation as she pins her doleful note on the bulletin board. No revenge for her - isn't that interesting?

[severa78]

Originally Posted by subtle science

Hermione only cries in PS/SS, when she thinks she has no friends...Hmmm. And Luna is blithely composed; I love her last scene in OotP, when she's trying to gather her belongings, and the calm way she speaks about the other students' mindless, unthinking, petty cruelty to her.

Hermione also cries in PoA when the guys are mad at her because of the Firebolt (and she's starting to crack under the strain). We don't see her but Hagrid tells Harry she does.

Luna's composure at addressing the cruelty she gets made me think that Snape might have chosen a similar strategy after SWM: ignore them, they're just being silly, everything will be alright in the end. Well maybe not the last part, as he seems much more bitter than her.
But the way Luna detached herself from resentment or other emotions looks vaguely familiar. Luna and Snape were both regarded as the "oddball" and they both started living in their own world to shut off the bullies.
Maybe Snape reads the Quibbler?

Forgot to thank Norbertha for starting the thread.. shame on me!

Silver - as soon as I've made up my mind on a new sig (choices...) can I call you? Great post on fire, by the way!

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by severa78

Hermione also cries in PoA when the guys are mad at her because of the Firebolt (and she's starting to crack under the strain). We don't see her but Hagrid tells Harry she does.

Thank you! I had forgotten that!

Luna's composure at addressing the cruelty she gets made me think that Snape might have chosen a similar strategy after SWM: ignore them, they're just being silly, everything will be alright in the end. Well maybe not the last part, as he seems much more bitter than her.

Very possible that he tried to ignore them. And I wrote earlier about the possibility that Snape's belongings had also been tampered with by the Marauders. My thought is that the "curses" he may have put on James might have come about through putting a "thief's curse" on his books or other things. Dumbledore mentions the "thief's curse" in the Intros to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, as well as Quidditch Through the Ages. The clue to that is Marietta the Sneak (I just realized "sneak" is an anagram for "snake" ) The curse wasn't on Marietta, but on the document she signed.

But the way Luna detached herself from resentment or other emotions looks vaguely familiar. Luna and Snape were both regarded as the "oddball" and they both started living in their own world to shut off the bullies.
Maybe Snape reads the Quibbler?

Snape reads Witch Weekly, so why not?

Forgot to thank Norbertha for starting the thread.. shame on me!

We can't survive without Norbertha!

Silver - as soon as I've made up my mind on a new sig (choices...) can I call you? Great post on fire, by the way!

Thank you, and sure, I'll make you a siggy. Whatever pictures you don't want, just send them to Subtle (Just Kidding!).

[subtle science]

silver ink pot, you have quite the little cruel streak going this morning! : ) !!!

This is just a random thought, but I was mulling over the crying...JKR makes quite the distinction between the types of crying. Over in Decon, Pettigrew was being discussed (eeww) and I quoted the passages about his crying in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA and the graveyard of GoF. In no way is Pettigrew's crying a cause for empathy from the reader--in fact, he's off-putting. So is Cho, with her nonstop carrying on. Yet Trelawney, for all her being spacey and irritating, evokes sympathy when she truly is upset in OotP; you can't not sympathize with Hermione; and how can you be immune to Dumbledore's losing it in OotP??? Lupin doesn't quite get to the point of shedding tears in OotP--rather like Harry's just barely containing himself in Molly's arms in GoF--but, still, even these "dry" moments have a major impact. Very deftly, JKR makes it clear who deserves sympathy and respect for justified tears and who doesn't--who's sincere and who isn't.

As for Luna--she doesn't appear to have suffered anything quite as extreme as SWM; she seems to be subjected to the barrage of petty nastiness on a daily basis--but no physical assault. Her personality appears quite different from Snape's--she's easy-going and understanding, mild and accepting...there's just not much of a fighter in her, in contrast to Snape's intensity.

[severa78]

Crying.. I wonder if and when we're going to see Snape crying. When's it going to finally be too much for him? He's going through quite a strain already..
I would just love him more if I could see him crying, but I wonder if he would do it in front of Harry (so that we may know) or if Harry would catch him off-guard (as in Book one he catches Filch tending to Fluffy's bite)

Subtle - I knew you were going to say that about Luna and Snape! I should have posted it with a disclaimer..

I didn't mean for Luna and Snape to have the same attitude, but more of the two sides of the coin. There are different ways of shutting the world out.
I wouldn't say Luna is not a fighter. I actually think it takes more strength to be accomodating than to react, so I would take Snape as the weaker of the two (maybe I should join IWBTBIGOIASSSS, except I never considered myself bullied).

I don't think that physical assault should be regarded as much worse than what Luna gets, and we really have no proof that she hasn't recieved physical assaults, either.
My idea is that the stronger attitude she takes comes from the love of her father (and of her mother as long as she lived), not by how less badly she's been bullied; whereas Snape never got much love at home as far as we know, so he picked the bitter side of shutting off people.

I like the idea of theft spell on his things, but I doubt Sirius and Lupin were referring to that in "never missed an opportuinity..", it sounded more voluntary.

[subtle science]

And I knew I'd be called on the "not a fighter" comment--I mean it literally: Luna doesn't physically confront those who attack her, whereas Snape does. And I actually think verbal/emotional abuse is worse than physical--but SWM is both; the physical attack on him isn't really that bad--except for the depth of humiliation it causes. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Luna has experienced a SWM, just as there no indication that she could/would respond physically. Snape is the flip side: he gets physically assaulted and he retaliates physically. And the parental situation is a flip side as well (hmmm..what then does that say about Snape's mother..or, in a complete opposite flip...his father?).

I do wonder if we'll see something as dramatic as tears from Snape--after all, JKR gave us Dumbledore breaking, and that was pretty dramaatic at the end of OotP. I did read a fanfiction someplace (don't ask), wherein the author had an interesting take on this. I can't abide a suddenly weepy, Oprah/Dr. Phil confessional Snape (eeeww), but this writer made a believable case for how/why Snape might break. The way she did it was simply to have Snape lose it, without any warning or indication beforehand--a case of 'the last straw' of pressure on him. I just found it an interesting way of seeing a scenario...I myself would guess that the most likely moment would occur with Dumbledore's death (if Dumbledore doesn't die--that would be the plot twist that would truly shock me!).

Apropos of nothing, almost: You know, it could solve my inability-to-choose dilemma if I just gave everybody else free rein to change my avatar for me on, say, a weekly or biweekly basis....

[Mrs Flamel]

To add just a bit to SIP's fire analysis: Lupin is also associated with fire. In his very first scene in PoA, he conjures a flame in his hand without using a spell. I don't know what is more important here: the fire itself or the conjuring without saying a spell.

On the subject of Legilimency being an innate talent, oddly enough, the question came up in the Lupin thread yesterday. Here's my comment:

My take: compare Legilimency/Occlumency to musical talent. Some are born with it, some are not; those with musical talent have it to varying degrees. Anyone can take piano lessons and learn how to put their fingers on the correct keys to make music; some can do so more naturally and can learn music more easily. If one is born with musical talent, it still must be nurtured and developed to become a skill.

Legilimency is probably similar: one may have the talent for it (as Harry seems to), but it is something one must develop and practice to become skilled at it. It is probably something that someone can learn without inherent talent--though a person without talent would never be able to perform with the same ease and elegance a naturally talented Legilimens could. Does that make sense?

I like the Snape / Luna contrast (you could throw that in the mirrors thread as a foil!) I also think that Luna has a deeply-ingrained sense of confidence in herself. She doesn't seem to desire social acceptance/recognition as Snape does--I couldn't ever see her being upset over a Ministry recognition slipping through her fingers. Nor, as subtle pointed out, is she the type to retailiate physically.
All the reasons for their difference here are good, but I think her self confidence is another. Snape doesn't seem to have much confidence--at least not socially. He has plenty of confidence in his abilities and his intelligence. I also get the feeling that Luna is close to her father and was to her mother. There seems to be much more love in her life than in Snape's--not that Snape's family life is absolutley understood, but it doesn't come across as warm and cuddly so far.