Two-Way Mirror #13 - Does Dumbledore Know Why Voldemort Didn't Die?

[navygreen]

Discussion for The Two-Way Mirror #13 - Does Dumbledore Know Why Voldemort Didn't Die? by Daniela Teo.

As this editorial is only 'new' here in its home under Daniela's new column, the previous feedback can be found in the old thread HERE.

[ChocolateRain]

He does know because he knows nearly everything but he jst doesn't want to tell Harry

[justaHPfan]

Perhaps DD doesn't "know" just yet but suspects - he suspects a great many things prior to finding out for sure (and is usually right) but remember his big talk with Harry in book 2? He told Harry that he "suspects" that VM transferred some of his powers to Harry the night VM gave Harry that scar. He was reluctant to say it but eventually did though clarifying it with "suspects" - I am hoping that HBP will be the "tell all" book where we learn (via Harry & perhaps DD learns for certain too) the why and how we've been holding on for, but of course we'll run out of time before the super big confrontation - perhaps this time VM will slip from Harry's grasp rather than the other way around leading us to book 7 and the big kahuna!

[jpgygax]

I very much enjoyed this article. I can't buy the triple snake idea - seems too far-fetched to me, meaning no offense -, but the idea of the soul-split is really fascinating. I was so far a firm believer in the Changeling Hypothesis, i.e. Harry holding the whole of Voldemort's soul without either being aware of the fact, but somehow that doesn't fit so well with the smoke serpents. At the least, your theory must count as a very interesting variation.

You got me convinced, I think, that DD's allusion during the MoM showdown about "We both know..." refers to a shared secret rather than a mere matter of philosophical points of view. Dumbledore must somehow know at least part of the answer to the question JKR taunts us with ("Why didn't Voldemort die?"), and so at least one of the "steps" that Voldie undertook to "guard himself against mortal death" must have had a truly terrible price. (Voldemort, judging by his snappish reply, seems to either secretely agree or be as yet unaware of that price.)

And now, while my thoughts were centered around the MoM battle again, something suddenly struck home in my mind. Maybe this has been pointed out before, but - did anyone else ever wonder how it could be that Lupin immediately knew Sirius was dead after he saw him fall through the veil?!

I mean, to Harry and the other members of the "rescue party", the veil was either something fascinating or something menacing. But clearly, it wasn't common knowledge in the wizarding world, or else at least one of the kids would have recognized it. And anyway, this is the Department of Mysteries we're talking about, so in fact very few people were supposed to know anything about it at all.

Yet Lupin, when he sees his old pal fall through the veil, knows at once that Sirius is dead. How is that possible? Did Lupin perhaps work in the DoM himself at one time? Very unlikely, seeing how difficult it was for him to find even "normal" work. One can only assume that his knowledge came from another source, and what else could that be than the Order of the Phoenix, i.e. Dumbledore?

Now, DD knows a great many things, but I think it unlikely that he knows about everything that is going on in the DoM. If he knows about the veil, then it must somehow be connected to his field of work, and DD's real field of work is, of course - Voldemort.

So, could it be - could it be! - that we can attempt at least a partial guess at the "unguessable"? If JKR says the answer to her Big Question is unguessable, then that can only mean the answer needs some information she has not yet revealed. And yet. What if that answer involved the veil?

Could it be that Voldemort already has, in some way or fashion, passed through the veil - on purpose?!

This article was one of the really interesting I've read on the internet. I'm not sure if I'm convinced yet - though I'm very fond of the idea of Nagini playing a bigger part in it all (JK tends to do that).

I was pleased to see the 'in essence devided' explained, it made much sense to me. In fact, I was pleased to see so many things explained ^_^ Of course, none of us can be sure of anything without confirmation of JK Rowling (which can be through an interview or reading the last two books).

The Runespoor made me thinking; you could be right about it (which you already know or else you wouldn't have bothered writing it down -_-" ). But maybe what it made me think of is a little off-topic, although it was the Hermione-comment (of the hissing) which made me realise it; Ron, Harry and Hermione can form a Runespoor as well! (I guess this is old news to the most, it's not that hard to figure out). Hermione is obviously the critic, Harry would be the planner in this context (yes, he would be the dreamer with Voldy-Nagini-Harry, but let's face it; Harry does most of the planning when there's someone to be rescued), and it leaves Ron to the position of dreamer, in a total different way as Harry can be. Hehe, but you probably already knew this *^_^*

Ok, so I have this idea that maybe the reason Voldemort didn't die is perhaps because Harry and Voldemort have small parts of each other in them because of the curse that back fired, Harry has gained at least one talent from the Dark Lord and has become linked to him. I think that the reason Voldemort didn't die is because while body-less, as long as Harry was alive so was he, allowing him to return, though if Harry had been killed in the CoS then Voldemort would have died too, and the Tom Riddle would have Risen to power. I know, it's not very understandable, but I felt the need to say something.

[Fatalis]

It is especially the fusion of the bodies that made me think these feelings might actually belong to Voldemort more than to Harry

I think that is one of the the most important parts of the editorial.

Voldemort's motivation, state of mind and body will surely be crucial to book six and the entire series.

Also the idea of Harry being one of the snakes and Voldemort the other, and not Voldemort's body one and the Voldemort in Nagini the other, as I first assumed?

[Kikkilah]

"We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom" (OotP 814).

Is it possible that Dumbledore is referencing not himself and Voldemort, but rather himself and Harry as both posessing that particular nugget of information?? We've all mused that LOVE is the mysterious power that Voldemort knows nothing of, that has the power to destroy a man. Dumbledore has revealed to Harry way back in PS/SS the enormous power of his mother's love residing in/on him...sufficient to defeat Prof. Quirrell (and, consequently, Voldemort) when he touched Harry's skin. It's just painfully obvious that Harry is clueless at that moment in the MoM that this LOVE will be the ultimate weapon he will utilize to defeat Voldemort. A stretch, perhaps, but a good one, I think.

Anyone else curious why Dumbledore referred to Voldemort as "Tom" here, rather than "Lord Voldemort"?? I need to re-read these passages to formulate my opinion further before I comment.

[jpgygax]

Originally Posted by Kikkilah

Anyone else curious why Dumbledore referred to Voldemort as "Tom" here, rather than "Lord Voldemort"?

I've always thought of this as "psychological warfare" on the part of Dumbledore.

He encourages people to call Voldemort by his self-chosen name rather than as "You-Know-Who", to drive home the point that Voldemort is not some kind of supernatural power (meaning "supernatural" from a wizard's point of view) the mere mention of which brings doom.

When he addresses Voldemort directly though, the rules change. To call him ""Lord Voldemort" or even "Voldemort" would mean accepting his self-styled grandeur, which of course DD won't do. No indeed - not only does he continue to call him Tom, which in itself should be enough to drive him mad, but he does so in the tones of someone doing conversation over tea.

"The only one he ever feared" - DD is quite aware of that fact, and he knows how to keep that fear alive.

[Kikkilah]

Originally Posted by jpgygax

I've always thought of this as "psychological warfare" on the part of Dumbledore....To call him ""Lord Voldemort" or even "Voldemort" would mean accepting his self-styled grandeur, which of course DD won't do. No indeed - not only does he continue to call him Tom, which in itself should be enough to drive him mad, but he does so in the tones of someone doing conversation over tea.

I agree entirely . Perhaps just another example of JKR's excellent writing style. She wrote that scene in a way that efficiently depicts Dumbledore's cool and collective demeanor in a situation where everyone and everything else is in utter chaos. I, too, thought the manner of address a bit tongue-in-cheek and enciting towards Voldemort, despite the gravity of the present battle (which Dumbledore is in complete grasp of).

[trueliwicked]

ok i had just read one of the posts and something suddenly popped into my head. in hppoa p.642 wormtail cuts harry's arm and puts a vial to his arm and lets blood fill up in the vial, and then he drains the blood in the cauldron. and after wormtail does this, it is announced that voldemort has risen. ok keep that in mind.
when dicussing professor qurriell with DD in HPatSS, harry is told about the protection he has, from his mom sacrificing herself to save him, and it is in his blood or skin. it is not the scar on his forehead. and that was why PQ could not touch harry.

what if now voldemort has this protection also? since harrys blood [and maybe some skin particles] was used to bring him back into power.
i thought maybe it was a decent idea as to why DD and voldemort had that talk. and why voldemort could not die.

i really like the end theory.... the one about the runespoor and whatnot.... but i think that the connection could be through Voldemort Harrry and Peter. Call me crazy but the two ganging up on the one, it just seems that that would be the most plausible... i really like the idea of Nagini though..... Peter does owe Harry his life and they now have a bond of some sort that really didn't go into much detail. maybe there's a little more of a connection you know.... oh well we've got 5 days and we'll know!!!

sarah

This is a really long but intresting editorial.
It explains lots about why didn't Voldemort die? Why did he just loose hi body?
It also explains why Voldemort thinks there is nothing more worse than death.
Which is why Voldemort wants to be imortal.

I thank Daniela and Meghana for putting time and effort into insighting us.

I am so impressed how on-target this article was!! Voldemort splitting his soul seven ways after all is just not as interesting as the three-headed-snake idea. So if Nagini is one of Voldemorts horcruxes, could Harry be one, too? Nice idea, but why didn't Voldemort use Harry for that instead of just taking his blood to regenerate? Is it possible to inadvertantly create a horcrux? In any case, kudos for picking up on the "essence divided" clue. I sure missed it!

[justaHPfan]

Well, of course, now that we know of the horcruxes and that Nagini is probably one of them, it makes sense the whole "in essence divided" bit now doesn't it? VM's soul is divided between himself and Nagini and a few other things!

I don't think that Harry is a horcrux, but I do think VM was going to use his murder to make one - as DD proposed. We never actually learned what spell is necessary to do the horcrux, but Slughorn did tell us that there is a spell you need to cast - presumably right after you kill someone to use that negative searing of your soul (really your conscience) it takes to kill and then sluff off a piece of your soul into something else. Pretty creepy really, but that explains why TR/VM looks so non-human - that, and he probably did some other crazy transformations too - it also probably gives us a hint as to why he looks so snake-like - one part of his soul is in a snake!! What do you think?

[busoryong]

i don't want to sound like a flamer and i really don't want to sound mean because we middle-aged dudes who love the HP books need all the company we can find. but. . .

i've read a couple of these editorials and i can't help but giggle. you should stop trying to be so sly and start looking at the simple, time tested rules of storytelling instead of digging for double meanings behind archaic translations of names, or trying to smash meanings into random pairs of opposites or doubles. hey--red is the opposite of blue so that means that the half blood prince is the music loving son of dumbledore? or the title to book six will be the pillar of storge? of course dumbledore can't die in book six (even though he's the jesus/gandalf character of this series.)

like those trying to lock down the time of the rapture, you are trying to make predictions based on odd bits of numerology, or opposites, or the fact that i stubbed my toe last tuesday while eating a bagle with my dog. when jkr says it's unguessable, as when god says no one will know the hour i think you should get off it. i haven't, and won't, read all your editorials but i haven't yet found a prediction of yours that came true. i see many people enjoy your editorials. i would suggest they don't get too wrapped up in your cool ponderings.

busoryong

p.s. despite the references that kept popping up i have no religious affiliations of any kind (for or against)

[MagicLantern]

I wish you had posted these comments, busoryong, in the thread of one of my other editorials, if they offend you so, and not this one, where I actually talk about Voldemort's soul being divided.

Originally Posted by editorial

Because of some law of unity, as in the soul must be whole to pass to the other side, it would be impossible for Voldemort ever to die, because his soul would always be divided. It fits that Voldemort the divider should have a "divided" soul. I imagine that having a divided soul is worse than death.

I realize there are also some inaccurate guesses along with the good ones, but read the editorial carefully before posting in the thread that not a single guess of mine, not one, has come true.

[busoryong]

i didn't want to sound like a flamer but i think i did. i didn't want to say none of your predicitions came true but i see that it does look that way when reading the post. i've been flamed before and it's frustrating (maybe i'll end up on thewall of shame!)

i'm actually ecstatic that an educated person takes such an interest in books that have become so dear to me, and believe me i read the couple editorials with great interest.

but please don't think i was offended in any way, or was angry, or was laughing at the ignorant masses who aren't as smart as i.

but that said, i did giggle at some of the inferences that, in my opinion, went a little far. and as far as predictions go, i had absolutely no clue who the HBP would be nor did i guess who the next death was.

i promise to spend some more time reading your other editorials and will gleefully post further, next time hopefully in the proper place. if i disagree with something, please know that i am only disagreeing and not flaming. i am grateful that you put them up, widening the offerings of the harry potter universe for my own selfish consumption.

take care,

busoryong

[MagicLantern]

Thanks for the apology, busoryong. I know, looking back, that I wrote some things that were out there and that make me cringe in retrospect. I put a lot of thought into everything, although sometimes my ideas did spin out of control. However, I am happy with quite a few of the observations I made.

I did expect Dumbledore to die, but for some reason I thought it would be at the beginning of the seventh book. I simply couldn't see book seven starting without Dumbledore. Of course, I didn't think of the alternative that the trio might not go back to school, or not immediately. I couldn't see book seven starting without Dumbledore and things being the same. Rowling took care to make things different in book seven, and now I can accept his death in book six.

My recent editorial "Dubbledore" that seemed to be out there commented on the importance of double doors or paired doors and the traps associated with doors... I think in view of the vanishing cabinets and the trap on the tower we can say that I was on the right track.

I thought Dumbledore was the Half-Blood Prince, which was obviously wrong. However, I also thought he was the heir of Gryffindor. The symbolism of royalty is there in connection to Dumbledore. I am sure we will find something out about his past in the seventh book that will fit in with the hints that led me to think he was a prince.

The Voldemort and Fawkes idea was also a bit out there, BUT, Ollivander has disappeared, and I still don't think we've gotten to the bottom of the wand brothers mystery.

We were as a group focusing on all kinds of minor clues prior to HBP... I am not used to spending time predicting what is coming as I usually read not for plot but for structure, images, symbolism, themes, and character development. It's harder to be accurate in detecting patterns when you don't have the whole series in front of you. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easier to detect the symbolism when you already know what happens. Harry Potter is very different from most things I read. It does, however, have structure, images, symbolism, themes, and character development.

I have gotten details wrong, but the only theory of mine that I am beginning to think I need to dismantle was the matrix. I haven't yet sat down with the sixth book to see if the matrix still applies. My gut feeling right now is that it doesn't. I don't recognize the same pattern of obstacles. I'll think more about it when I get a chance.

I have sent in two editorials for the time being on the HBP, and have at least another pressing idea. The matrix will have to wait. It was a bit of a baby of mine, and it's hard to let go. I never had such a euphoria as when I thought it up.

EDIT: I was actually very proud when Rowling said in a recent interview that she associated the Hogwarts Houses with the traditional four elements: Gryffindor with fire, Slytherin with water, Ravenclaw with air and Hufflepuff with earth. I pointed that out in "Heirs and Inheritances."

[busoryong]

i expected dumbledore to die, but not until the end of the seventh book. i couldn't imagine book seven starting without him either. so now, as to the title of this thread--will we ever find out if dumbledore knew why voldemort didn't die? how much info will we be able to get out of his portrait in his former headmaster's study? at least that's how i figured in his resurection as the jesus/gandalf character.