Who Will Fall in Love with Whom? V2 #3

[chamber]

Originally Posted by bamaslamma29

You may ask yourself what the purpose of Harry's crush on Cho was then, as it went on for two and a half books, and in OoTP, was gone through completely, and completely snuffed out. The same thing might be happening with Ron's crush on Hermione, which seemed to have started in GoF. Harry's crush on Cho was completely GOTTEN OVER, and it even spanned longer than Ron's crush on Hermione. You see? It's like I've been saying. Clues are clear that one person may like another... Ron likes HErmione... Hermione likes Harry. However, the OUTCOMES of the feelings shown are NOT set in stone. We don't know if Heron is going to sail or not. We don't know if Harmony is going to sail or not. We only know we have clues for the two.

And YES, to the person who contradicted what I said about people thinking that Harry and CHo were going to get together... I knew quite a few people who thought that ship was going to sail, simply based on Harry's crush on her, and I saw quite a few web sites where people were rocked back on their heels in disappointment. There is even an interview out there where someone asked JKR why Harry and Cho had to break up. Her response? "That's life, I'm afraid. They were never going to work out."

But... but... wait! She gave clues for it! She mislead us!

NO, no she didn't. She is making her characters, their emotions, and their journeys growing up, as she said "true to life", and is trying to make them realistic, as she has said in other interviews. NOt all crushes end up in relationships, or even relationships that last. SOme are simply gotten over. Some don't end in a relationship at all. SEE HARRY/CHO.

It's pretty simple. It's all in character development. Things may not end up the way everyone wants them too. Yes, there may be clues for Heron, yes, there may be clues for Harmony... but which one is going to sail is NOT set in stone. Things change. Platonic feelings can CHANGE.

I recently asked Herons what it would take for Ron and HErmione to finally get together, since the Ron--> Hermione crush was evident starting in GoF, and if, as Heron's like to claim, the ships are obvious, and there is nothing else going on other than what's on the very surface.

As IceKat so graciously pointed out...

"Ron is a young inexperienced boy, and we all know it takes boys longer to mature than girls. Ron still has some maturing to do, and IMO, he will come to some realizations about Hermione soon enough. Seeing her every day, hanging out with her as a best friend from age 11, hasn't afforded him with that realization yet..."

To which I responded... "WELL DONE!"

Why?

Because these are the things I"ve been arguing for HARRY since the beginning. If we can apply all of this to Ron's coming realization for Hermione, then similarly, without being hypocritical, we must allow that the VERY SAME can apply for HARRY'S realization for Hermione. I already see his thoughts and actions and feelings toward her changing, especially since the "pretty" realization in GoF, and a LOT more in OoTP.


We also must understand, in that, as is realistic, as JKR herself said she is trying to make her books, some boys come to realizations and confused feelings at different times than others. Even barring this, Harry has had QUITE A LOT MORE confusing, clouding and cluttering his mind, that he might not quite be having feelings for Hermione yet. Cho anyone? Evil wizard trying to do him in? Evil aunt and uncle? Abusive cousin? Dementors? Prophecies? Dying godfathers?

ALL of this, quite understandably, obviously, can be contributing to the fact that Harry might not be going down the same emotional road that Ron is yet. The author has not allowed him to. So Harry's "realization" for Hermione, if it is to happen, does NOT have to happen the same time as ROn's, at fourteen, which some have liked to claim as "evidence" that Harry's feelings for her never will change.

Ron's feelings for Hermione JUST CHANGED at fourteen. ANd yet, since Harry's haven't quite changed yet at fifteen(even though they seem to already be starting), Harmony isn't going to sail????

Summation:

Crush-like feelings change... see GINNY. Plotlines are gone through, and ENDED, see Harry and Cho!

Heron or Harmony may happen, Or they may not. HOWEVER, we must take all of it into consideration, and all evidence of ships into consideration, since a lot of it is derived from canon, and BOTH ships, Harmony and Heron, have canon evidence. We may choose to interpret it differently, but it's definitely THERE.

Also wanted to post this last bit, because I'm not going to be posting here again, and I wanted everyone who responded to me to know why I'm not responding back.

I've seen too much bias toward the Heron ship here, from the mods. Harmonians are getting banned left and right, and yet I've seen some truly ugly comments, total bashing of Harmony, generalization of Harmony, one line posts, and complete rudeness from some of Heron, and yet NOTHING is done to those. There are a couple every now and then who are banned, but there is a clear bias here against Harmonians, and I don't wish to watch the thread keep degrading. After a while of watching some Harmonians get banned for things much much less rude than these, it becomes pretty obvious that it isn't just that some posts are getting missed.



Happy shipping to all, and I hope HBP brings you everything you hoped for!

Cheers, Bama

this post is a little old but i just wanted say that if anyone still thinks that any ship is obvious then they should read this. when it comes to relationships in the books i don't think any one of them is obvious. great post.

later

[MPPMarauderGirl]

I have to quickly disagree. Both Heron and Harmony do not have canon evidence. I'm sorry but this is simply NOT TRUE. Heron believe Hermione<-->Ron. Since we believe that Hermione loves Ron, and you believe that Hermione loves Harry, then we both can't be right. No, both of us do not have evidence. One of us has evidence, and the other has "evidence" that was misinterpreted. If Hermione gets with Neville because she never thought of Ron or Harry that way, then neither Heron or Harmony had evidence, and the people who ship Hermione/Neville will be throwing a party. We have interpretations, quotes and scenes. We claim we have evidence, but one of our sides is grasping at the straws and there is nothing there. It just means those shippers interpreted wrong and there never was any canon supporting their ship.

[cookie654]

I think that hermione and ron will get together because jk leaves a few hints in GoF and OotP I think harry loves hermione but like a sister I also think harry will finally notice ginny as more than ron's little sister because she seems so much more mature in OotP and not afraid to talk to harry like in CoS

[Toltec_7]

I want to have a look at a quote :shock Horror: that has been used to prove that is 'obviously' going to be Heron:

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now first thing to note is the question, as you can see the question is about Hermione, not Ron or Harry, this in itself makes her answer seem very suspect. Every shipper who has ever taken part in the Great Debate knows that Hermione is the character in question, when it comes to the love plot. No matter how hard each side argues her feelings are not 'obvious'.

So lets look at her answer; a lot of you have taken this answer to mean 'It's obvious', and on face value it can seem as though that is what she is saying, however as I mentioned above, there is no way any shipper can prove Hermione’s obvious feelings, there fore lets take a deeper look at the answer.

First I want to skip to the second word I bolded: Some

Most shippers are taking this word to mean, a small few or the minority; however that is wrong, the word 'some' has many possible meanings; they are:

- some (UNKNOWN AMOUNT)
- some (LARGE AMOUNT)
- some (PARTICULAR THING)
- some (ANNOYANCE)
- some (EXCELLENT)
- some (APPROXIMATELY)
- some (SMALL AMOUNT)

http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/some

The shippers that believe it's obvious are taking the word to be the last one (SMALL AMOUNT); but this doesn’t quite match up with the first part I bolded: 'can't believe'

In other words it's unbelievable to her that there are people who haven't worked this out yet. So why is it unbelievable that a small few, the minority haven't worked it out? That doesn't make sense, there is always a group of people that think the opposite of what the majority do, it's what makes us individuals, and is definitely not unbelievable, more like to be expected. To make what I'm trying to say clearer lets change the word 'some' to its possible meanings:

I can't believe that a SMALL AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Like I said, it doesn't quite make sense, does it, as it’s not that unbelievable.

I can't believe that a LARGE AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now this one makes a lot more sense, it's a lot more unbelievable if a large amount of people haven't worked it out, when the author believes she has 'given enough clues by now'.

The third word 'worked' just makes this argument stronger, the answer to this question needs to worked out, it's not stearing you right in the face, it's not as 'obvious' as some people seem to think it is, she has put clues in the books that point to the right answer.

OotP presents us with a book at contains a lot of strong evidence pointing to Harry being the one Hermione is interested in and very little to support Ron being the answer. Why write only one possible clue (the kiss on the cheek) pointing to Hr-->R, in a book as large as OotP, when you want it to be clear that Hermione likes Ron? And to make matters worse, put in lots of clues supporting Harry.

So to sum up, yes I agree Mrs. Rowling, I can't believe that some of us haven't worked it out yet either or at least thought about the possibility that their original conclusion may be wrong, after all we 'have had enough clues by now'.

[cookie654]

I think that to a certain extent hermione does have feelings for harry and ron has feelings for hermione wouldn't be entertaining if the wonderful trio ended up in a love triangle?

[MPPMarauderGirl]

Originally Posted by cookie654

I think that to a certain extent hermione does have feelings for harry and ron has feelings for hermione wouldn't be entertaining if the wonderful trio ended up in a love triangle?

Well, if you ask me, the idea is quite pointless. There is no point making Ron like Hermione if in the end it all means nothing. There is no point in the Brawl, the makeup, Krum, the jealousy--no, that would have been a waste of time. I've posted time and time again that this is not a love story. And I'm still wondering why people think JKR's going to take this small plot and blow it up to gain everything? Why would she turn the War into a messy love triangle.

Not everyone believes that JKR tells the truth in her interviews, but she said that though book 6 is about the war, there will be some humor and fun parts. Before I call myself stupid, I wonder if anyone else finds it very hard to see a love-triangle being humorous and fun; I only see it being worse for Harry than if Harry just stayed single.

[hphphp62442]

Uncalled for

[Therinian]

I am NOT even going to TRY to guess what Jo has in store as far as love goes for ANYONE in the HP books, but I'd just like to see HARRY have a relationship before the end of the last book--I'm secretly hoping it will be with LUNA.

[ikuko]

Originally Posted by Toltec_7

...long sophistic excersise....

Pardon me, but it reminded me of an old joke about a woman who heard from her husband: "dear, you are mistaken..."... So she thought: "If I am mistaken, I am stupid - if I am stupid, I am mad, - if I am mad, I am barking - if I am barking, I am a dog - if I am a dog, I am a <female dog> - 'Mom, he called me a b-word!' "

The whole construction is not valid for the simple reason that there is another meaning: "I can not believe that some of you (small amount) - including the questioner - need any more information than what is already plainly written (but not directly said) in the books"

[MPPMarauderGirl]

Originally Posted by Therinian

I am NOT even going to TRY to guess what Jo has in store as far as love goes for ANYONE in the HP books, but I'd just like to see HARRY have a relationship before the end of the last book--I'm secretly hoping it will be with LUNA.

I'm not asking for canon evidence, I'm just wondering why you want Harry with Luna? Do you feel she can offer him more than any girl? That she can bring him happiness because they have much in common and enjoy going places together? What makes you ship Harry with Luna? After the war is over, if Harry survives, will he be able to share common things with Luna, find laughter and fun in Luna, find carefree and agreeable things with Luna? I've heard many times that Luna helped Harry through Sirius' death, but nobody has told me what they have in common other than death, losing a parent(al figure), being loners, and even those will come to pass. Harry will get over the loss of Sirius, and will not dwell on losing him, and after school is over, it won't matter if Harry is popular or not. So what do you feel they have for after-school?

[iheartduckies]

Originally Posted by hphphp62442

ok sorry but that was like the stupidest argument ive ever heard in my life. i dont think JK looks up what every word she says, such as some, in the dictionary

that was not the point of the argument now was it. They weren't saying that: jkr looks up everword she uses before she says it, which means H/Hr make sense. So actually read what they are trying to say before you go trashing them.

[rookie]

Originally Posted by Toltec_7

I want to have a look at a quote :shock Horror: that has been used to prove that is 'obviously' going to be Heron:

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now first thing to note is the question, as you can see the question is about Hermione, not Ron or Harry, this in itself makes her answer seem very suspect. Every shipper who has ever taken part in the Great Debate knows that Hermione is the character in question, when it comes to the love plot. No matter how hard each side argues her feelings are not 'obvious'.

So lets look at her answer; a lot of you have taken this answer to mean 'It's obvious', and on face value it can seem as though that is what she is saying, however as I mentioned above, there is no way any shipper can prove Hermione’s obvious feelings, there fore lets take a deeper look at the answer.

First I want to skip to the second word I bolded: Some

Most shippers are taking this word to mean, a small few or the minority; however that is wrong, the word 'some' has many possible meanings; they are:

- some (UNKNOWN AMOUNT)
- some (LARGE AMOUNT)
- some (PARTICULAR THING)
- some (ANNOYANCE)
- some (EXCELLENT)
- some (APPROXIMATELY)
- some (SMALL AMOUNT)

http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/some

The shippers that believe it's obvious are taking the word to be the last one (SMALL AMOUNT); but this doesn’t quite match up with the first part I bolded: 'can't believe'

In other words it's unbelievable to her that there are people who haven't worked this out yet. So why is it unbelievable that a small few, the minority haven't worked it out? That doesn't make sense, there is always a group of people that think the opposite of what the majority do, it's what makes us individuals, and is definitely not unbelievable, more like to be expected. To make what I'm trying to say clearer lets change the word 'some' to its possible meanings:

I can't believe that a SMALL AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Like I said, it doesn't quite make sense, does it, as it’s not that unbelievable.

I can't believe that a LARGE AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now this one makes a lot more sense, it's a lot more unbelievable if a large amount of people haven't worked it out, when the author believes she has 'given enough clues by now'.

The third word 'worked' just makes this argument stronger, the answer to this question needs to worked out, it's not stearing you right in the face, it's not as 'obvious' as some people seem to think it is, she has put clues in the books that point to the right answer.

OotP presents us with a book at contains a lot of strong evidence pointing to Harry being the one Hermione is interested in and very little to support Ron being the answer. Why write only one possible clue (the kiss on the cheek) pointing to Hr-->R, in a book as large as OotP, when you want it to be clear that Hermione likes Ron? And to make matters worse, put in lots of clues supporting Harry.

So to sum up, yes I agree Mrs. Rowling, I can't believe that some of us haven't worked it out yet either or at least thought about the possibility that their original conclusion may be wrong, after all we 'have had enough clues by now'.

I have to echo ikuko's sentiment here. This is an extremely convoluted argument. JKR's quotes exist outside the books, and she is trying to clarify points readers don't get. Why use hidden meanings and alternative explanations to confuse her readers even further? Ockham's Razor dictates the simplest explanation is often the best one, which is to take the quote at face value.

rookie

[muggleview]

Originally Posted by Toltec_7

I want to have a look at a quote :shock Horror: that has been used to prove that is 'obviously' going to be Heron:

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now first thing to note is the question, as you can see the question is about Hermione, not Ron or Harry, this in itself makes her answer seem very suspect. Every shipper who has ever taken part in the Great Debate knows that Hermione is the character in question, when it comes to the love plot. No matter how hard each side argues her feelings are not 'obvious'.

So lets look at her answer; a lot of you have taken this answer to mean 'It's obvious', and on face value it can seem as though that is what she is saying, however as I mentioned above, there is no way any shipper can prove Hermione’s obvious feelings, there fore lets take a deeper look at the answer.

First I want to skip to the second word I bolded: Some

Most shippers are taking this word to mean, a small few or the minority; however that is wrong, the word 'some' has many possible meanings; they are:

- some (UNKNOWN AMOUNT)
- some (LARGE AMOUNT)
- some (PARTICULAR THING)
- some (ANNOYANCE)
- some (EXCELLENT)
- some (APPROXIMATELY)
- some (SMALL AMOUNT)

http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/some

The shippers that believe it's obvious are taking the word to be the last one (SMALL AMOUNT); but this doesn’t quite match up with the first part I bolded: 'can't believe'

In other words it's unbelievable to her that there are people who haven't worked this out yet. So why is it unbelievable that a small few, the minority haven't worked it out? That doesn't make sense, there is always a group of people that think the opposite of what the majority do, it's what makes us individuals, and is definitely not unbelievable, more like to be expected. To make what I'm trying to say clearer lets change the word 'some' to its possible meanings:

I can't believe that a SMALL AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Like I said, it doesn't quite make sense, does it, as it’s not that unbelievable.

I can't believe that a LARGE AMOUNT of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

Now this one makes a lot more sense, it's a lot more unbelievable if a large amount of people haven't worked it out, when the author believes she has 'given enough clues by now'.

The third word 'worked' just makes this argument stronger, the answer to this question needs to worked out, it's not stearing you right in the face, it's not as 'obvious' as some people seem to think it is, she has put clues in the books that point to the right answer.

OotP presents us with a book at contains a lot of strong evidence pointing to Harry being the one Hermione is interested in and very little to support Ron being the answer. Why write only one possible clue (the kiss on the cheek) pointing to Hr-->R, in a book as large as OotP, when you want it to be clear that Hermione likes Ron? And to make matters worse, put in lots of clues supporting Harry.

So to sum up, yes I agree Mrs. Rowling, I can't believe that some of us haven't worked it out yet either or at least thought about the possibility that their original conclusion may be wrong, after all we 'have had enough clues by now'.

Hi Toltec_7,
I like your posting. It's quite balanced. You correctly show that Jo Rowling didn't intend to clarify things in OOP. She wants us to "work this one out" by applying misleading information, instead of writing a plain story.
I am convinced when she wrote Book 5, Jo Rowling had the shipping war in her mind. She likes to tease the readers and becomes aware she has to set up better smokescreens than before, not to make her pairing preferences too obvious, so cunningly she wrote more twists in some parts.
There are several instances in OOP she deliberately toyed with:
1. Hermione's hug in 12GP.
The hug may not be unique, because Mrs. Weasley already gave Harry a "rib-crunching" hug a few paragraphs earlier. Harry was caught off-guard and off-balance by the hug, because he was preoccupied with adjusting his sight in the gloomy room. However, it was Hermione's hug! This certainly excites H/Hr shippers, who may be disappointed to learn Hermione and Ron seemingly having good time without Harry in the Burrow or some place else, unknown before chapter 4. Good smokescreen! Nice diversion to a single act that can be classified as a sisterly hug or a very romantic hug, depending on the readers shipping preference. Nevertheless, Jo covered herself well by immediately making Hermione to call Ron's name: "HARRY! Ron, Harry is here..." (OOP Ch 4) So, R/Hr shippers have enough materials to cheer.

2. Prefect badge confusion.
Why let Hermione come in the room when the badge on Harry's hand? It was in Ron's hand or the twins for a long while. Just when it landed on Harry's hand, Hermione bursted into the room. This is a deliberate twist to provoke shipping war! Hermione's shriek and statements "I knew it! I knew it!" should be a fresh air to H/Hr shippers, after they read that Ron and Hermione "often ... whispered together and casting anxious looks in" Harry's direction (OOP Ch 6), and no indication that Hermione did similar thing with Harry, without Ron.
Again, Jo covered herself well. Just before that scene, she spent many paragraphs to show that practically everyone in the right mind would think Harry should be a prefect, not Ron, using Ron and the twins' conversation (or cruel teasings). Hence, Hermione's reaction can be explained as logical and normal, not necessarily shippy.
The important information actually comes after Hermione found out the truth: What would Hermione do after realizing her wrong assumption? Would she care about Ron or Harry? This is really shippy.
Hermione didn't have much time to think. Her subsequent act is quick reflex, something natural, not contemplated. And there, waiting hungrily to extend the teasing to her, the twins are paying full attention to her reaction.
And she gave her attention to Ron with superlative blushing!
As if, Jo thought she gave away too much, immediately the act was cut with Mrs. Weasley's brief visit, giving the same shriek as Hermione (after the similar hugs), and a lot of kisses. After Mrs. Weasley left, Jo picked up again where she left off. The twins teased Ron, but Hermione bravely defended him. Still no consoling word for Harry. Finally, the twins and Ron went out the room, leaving Harry and Hermione alone. Hermione used the chance to borrow Hedwig and left, closing the door behind her. Bye.

3. Christmas at 12 Grimmauld Place.
Did Dumbledore tell Hermione about Arthur's injury "this morning" or "yesterday morning"? It may not yet ignite shipping war, but certainly editing war! If time is money, and every second worths one Pound (or dollar), that's a 86400 quid difference. Or at least many postings in this thread, just to reiterate the correction. Anyway, Hermione arrived and a few minutes passed by. Depending on how fast the snow melts from bushy hairs, it may range from two to more than five minutes. Without looking at his watch and deep in his own thought, Harry doesn't have good judgement on time. Hermione asked to speak to Harry alone. A great moment for H/Hr shippers. Once more, Jo covered herself well. A few words later, Hermione quipped Ron's name. Couldn't Hermione wait a bit longer? She was talking to Harry, who badly needed consolation, much more than Ron! To Harry's surprise, Hermione lured him to Ron and Ginny, and Jo used the chance to insert Harry-Ginny moments. And thereafter, no more Harry-Hermione private conversation in 12 GP, whereas in a scene when Arthur came home from the hospital, Hermione was grouped as "the Weasleys" twice by Harry (or Jo Rowling and the editors), thus supporting R/Hr.

You see, those stories can be told in a more straightforward way, if she likes to, but apparently Jo Rowling intended to enjoy shipping war a bit longer. So here we are, debating back and forth, satisfying our needs to socialize with other human beings.
Cheers,
Muggy

[lanifiel]

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