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Dumbledore's Man Through and Through



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  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 6:27 am
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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Dumbledore's Man Through and Through

Discussion of the editorial Dumbledore's Man Through and Through by Dan McAllister.


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  #2  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 6:39 am
Sopapillaz  Female.gif Sopapillaz is offline
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EDITORIAL AND COMMENTS WILL HAVE SPOILERS:
(to all that didn't know :P)

I think this is wonderful. I don't think I would have ever seen all those hidden clues. I didn't think snape was evil and think that is enough proof to show he is not. At first I thought that maybe Dumbledore was begging to be killed. But, now as I read that is makes much more sense that he was begging for Harry's life because I guess Dumbledore knew the hatred that Snape had for Harry's father. That was brilliant.


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Last edited by Sopapillaz; July 22nd, 2005 at 7:40 am.
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  #3  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 6:53 am
AliHermione  Female.gif AliHermione is offline
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Wow, that was really good. I was so confused at Snape's attitude throughout the whole book, but Dan may be onto something. It makes a lot of sense that Snape would have told Dumbledore about the Vow. What's more, since Dumbledore knows about the prophecy, he definitely WOULD want to keep Harry alive at all cost, for the sake of the world! Also, Dan makes the excellent point that Snape could have easily killed Hermione, but he didn't. If he had been on the Dark side, he definitely would have killed her, but he didn't! I can't wait to see what happens when book seven comes out!


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  #4  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 6:59 am
Esrb99  Male.gif Esrb99 is offline
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Amazing, I too think Snape is still good, but I hadn't thought of it from that standpoint... intresting...

~Esrb99~


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  #5  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:07 am
red_dragon311  Male.gif red_dragon311 is offline
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I sent an e-mail to brandon, of the underground lake, and I asked him if he thought if the members of the Order kew the prophecy. How does this relate to Snape and killing of DD. Well V spent the whole of OotP trying to find out the whole prophecy, we find the Snape was the evesdropper and told V as much as he knew. If DD told the members the whole prophecy, then Snape would know it. Snape tells Bella that they failed in thr DoM and the dark lord still does not know the prophecy. If Snape was really evil wouldn't he tell V the whole prophecy.

know If only Harry and DD know it then toss this idea,


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  #6  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:12 am
Beren_1hand  Undisclosed.gif Beren_1hand is offline
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I'm sorry, you have made some interesting points, but what it comes down to is the fact that Snape used Avada Kedavra, and as we all have been told (from Barty Crouch Jr.) is that AK takes a powerful amount of pure hatred to be effective. Bellatrix said as much to Harry in MoM, that rightous anger is not enough, you have to truly mean it. Snape could've killed Dumbledore in a hundred different ways while he was in that weakened state (like levitating him over the side of the castle and letting him drop), but he chose the Avada Kedavra curse.

And as to the fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape, he was simply wrong. Dumbledore has made mistakes before, and because he is more clever than most his mistakes tend to me bigger than most. Simply put he put his faith in the wrong man and died because of it. As to Snape not killing Harry when he had the chance I truly believe that Voldemort would've punished anyone for robbing him of the chance to personally kill "The Chosen One".

And in answer to the the question of why Snape didn't tell Voldy the whole prophecy, DD himself said that He and Harry were the only one's who knew the whole prophecy.



Last edited by Beren_1hand; July 22nd, 2005 at 7:17 am.
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  #7  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:13 am
Padfoot19  Female.gif Padfoot19 is offline
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wow. that editrial is amazing. i thought something along these lines and believed Snape to be acting on Dumbledore's orders though the whole book; however, this paper ties everything togather. it is so well explained and i can't seem to find a single hole in it. if all of this doesn't tunr out to be true i will be extremely surprised. thank you Dan McAllister for confirming my own thoughts!


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  #8  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:18 am
Ace04  Female.gif Ace04 is offline
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I absolutely loved this editorial. I really hope Snape's on the good side. It would be extremely disappointing, if, after all this time the DD trusted Snape, Snape kills him. That's depresssing. It's like sending the message, yeah, accept people's apologies and regrets, and forgive their terrible past mistakes, but watch out! They just might kill you.

Also, DD never feared Death. After all, he considered it to be Voldy's greatest weakness: to fear death, and that death is "to the well organized mind, the next great adventure." It just wouldn't make sense after that, DD would beg for his life.

And yet, the question remains, if Snape's loyalty was truly towards DD, how will Harry and the Order ever trust Snape ever again? Forget the Order, Harry is bleeding with revenge. He wants Snape dead, even though I don't think Harry can be capable of murder.


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  #9  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:29 am
MadamRosmerta  Female.gif MadamRosmerta is offline
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Spoilers Ahead...

I agree wholeheartedly. It didn't cross my mind during the death scene that DD was pleading for his life - he has way too much dignity to do that. I believe that DD was pleading with Snape to fulfill the conditions of the unbreakable vow. How else could DD have ensured that Snape did not die. This fits in with Hagrid overhearing Snape saying to DD that he was being asked too much - in the end DD knew that to save Snape he would have to die. This also explains why Snape's expression conveyed so much pain when Harry reminded him that he had killed DD, and why he lost control of his emotions.

It sill makes me cry to think about it all


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  #10  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:30 am
callmekrazy8  Female.gif callmekrazy8 is offline
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I'm not really sure what to believe. I'd like to believe that he is good, but like Beren1hand said, it takes a lot of pure hatred to perform the curse. But then maybe he could perform it beacuse he was bound to by the vow... ahh im so confused wheres book 7?


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  #11  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:31 am
losingmymind  Female.gif losingmymind is offline
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Wow, that was everything I was thinking and more!

Spoiler!!!!:


OH! Don;t forget Flitwick! If Snape was a true death eater, why didn't he kill Flitwick, it would have been so easy! Plus, everyone remembers seeing Snape walk through the Castle, but they don't remeber what he did, right! Well we know one thing, he didn't kill any of the kids or anyone from the Order (other then Dumbledore) either on the way out to where Draco was or on the way back from killing Dumbledore. That just doesn't seem like the type of thing a Death Eater would do.


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  #12  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:38 am
slammerr  Undisclosed.gif slammerr is offline
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another thing i havent seen much people talk about is the fact snape did not know the plan.. proof? in chapter 2 when narcissa is about to tell the plan, bella says the dark lord said not to mention the plan.. snape then says, if the dark lord says not to mention the plan then we shouldnt speak of it.. but then soon after snape says i do know the plan.. really fishy that he brings it up that quickly.. and then later on in the book when harry over hears snape talking to malfoy we hear snape asking him the plan so he can help him.. the plan could be about the way to kill dumbledore or the actual plan about killing dumbledore.. (get it straight ppl.. the WAY to kill him OR the actual plan about killing him)


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  #13  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:39 am
Sopapillaz  Female.gif Sopapillaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren_1hand
I'm sorry, you have made some interesting points, but what it comes down to is the fact that Snape used Avada Kedavra, and as we all have been told (from Barty Crouch Jr.) is that AK takes a powerful amount of pure hatred to be effective. Bellatrix said as much to Harry in MoM, that rightous anger is not enough, you have to truly mean it. Snape could've killed Dumbledore in a hundred different ways while he was in that weakened state (like levitating him over the side of the castle and letting him drop), but he chose the Avada Kedavra curse.

And as to the fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape, he was simply wrong. Dumbledore has made mistakes before, and because he is more clever than most his mistakes tend to me bigger than most. Simply put he put his faith in the wrong man and died because of it. As to Snape not killing Harry when he had the chance I truly believe that Voldemort would've punished anyone for robbing him of the chance to personally kill "The Chosen One".

And in answer to the the question of why Snape didn't tell Voldy the whole prophecy, DD himself said that He and Harry were the only one's who knew the whole prophecy.
Well. Snape did have a lot of true anger. His childhood and past... all of his hate from James Potter. So I think he did "mean" it when he killed Dumbledore. Because of the Unbreakable Curse he knew he had to do it because Malfoy was unable to and that was the rules of it. So I believe his just forced all of his hate from his past to make to Avada Kadavra curse.


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  #14  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:44 am
muggle2005  Female.gif muggle2005 is offline
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I too believe that the begging was either to kill him, or to protect Harry. I really, really want to believe Snape to be good, but after Jo's interview....
Perhaps Jo is as good of an actress as Snape when she wants to be?
This editorial definatly brings up some very good points. Some points I'm not sure I've seen some posters say, like, everybody believes him to of been begging for death- but it could be Harry,or basically, you've had practice killing, don't let Draco become a killer- that's his only salvaition.


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  #15  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:45 am
Diabolus  Male.gif Diabolus is offline
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It's very good and all, but the general theory has been covered in an editorial on this site, as well as multiple other places, but alas, it was okay, yet I still believe Snape is evil for my own reasons.


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  #16  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:47 am
Elinor  Undisclosed.gif Elinor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren_1hand
I'm sorry, you have made some interesting points, but what it comes down to is the fact that Snape used Avada Kedavra, and as we all have been told (from Barty Crouch Jr.) is that AK takes a powerful amount of pure hatred to be effective. Bellatrix said as much to Harry in MoM, that rightous anger is not enough, you have to truly mean it. Snape could've killed Dumbledore in a hundred different ways while he was in that weakened state (like levitating him over the side of the castle and letting him drop), but he chose the Avada Kedavra curse.
I disagree (respectfully ). The part when you said that Snape couldn't have used the avada kedavra unless he hated dd doesnt make sense to me. Bellatrix said that righteous anger wouldn't hurt but if (for the sake of argument) snape was dd's man and he was being forced to kill a great wizard he respected and admired, when he REALLY would rather not, he may feel the necessary hatred, he may feel it in his hate for the task or himself or voldemort. The question we should be asking is wether or not the pure unadulterated hatred needed for the avada curse needs to be directed toward the recipiant of the curse. Plus, bellatrix was talking about the crutacius curse, saying u needed to want to cause pain to make it work. If snape was dd's man he actually DID want to cause his death, but for all the right reasons of course. So I think it could have worked...


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  #17  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:49 am
Diabolus  Male.gif Diabolus is offline
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For example, some say making the vow was to ensure he could spy for the order, but the vow would ultimatly, as he knew, force him to kill DUmbledore, which in turn makes the Order members not trust him, and want to kill him. So if he made the vow to continue to spy, it would be pointless.

No, you don't need hate for that person you are preforming it on, you need hate in general. A sadistic general hate for things. Other wise DE's would not be able to kill so many random people with it.


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  #18  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 7:59 am
Elinor  Undisclosed.gif Elinor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolus
For example, some say making the vow was to ensure he could spy for the order, but the vow would ultimatly, as he knew, force him to kill DUmbledore, which in turn makes the Order members not trust him, and want to kill him. So if he made the vow to continue to spy, it would be pointless.

No, you don't need hate for that person you are preforming it on, you need hate in general. A sadistic general hate for things. Other wise DE's would not be able to kill so many random people with it.
I agree with you, I wish that snape is good (because I cant bear to think of dd's last moments as a betrayal) but if he was wouldn't dd have warned someone from the order "hey snapes going to kill me but trust him anyway"? For me this is the one big hole in the snape is good theory and the only way i can see to fill it is if snape is not supposed to serve as a spy from now on. Perhaps he is going to do something big, something more shall we say active (metal image of snape betraying voldie) to aid harry as we near the end.


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  #19  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 8:08 am
BlaiseZabini  Undisclosed.gif BlaiseZabini is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's man through and through

I would like to think this argument is right. At first, I was really angry at Snape, but after rereading the book, I think that maybe what you say is true.


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  #20  
Old July 22nd, 2005, 8:10 am
elimy  Female.gif elimy is offline
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Good editorial. Honestly I have no idea where Snape's true loyalties are, but the author made a very strong argument that they are with the Order.

However, there is one thing that has been bothering me since I started hearing people's theories that Snape told Dumbledore about the prophecy. If Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow and that Snape or Malfoy was going to have to kill him, that one way or another he was going to have to die, who did he tell?

If Dumbledore told Snape that he would have to kill him (DD) so that he could continue as a spy for the Order, Dumbledore MUST have told someone in the Order that this would happen. Imagine that you are a member of the Order. Harry, a very honest person, has just told you that he witnessed Snape Avada Kedavra Dumbledore. Are you going to trust Snape anymore? Would you want him to continue as a spy? Probably not. UNLESS Dumbledore told you that this would happen ahead of time.

So my theory, to compliment this one, is that someone (maybe only one person) in the Order had to have known that Dumbledore was going to die before it happened. Either that or Snape's truly a Death Eater.


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