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  #81  
Old November 16th, 2003, 12:20 am
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I just thought it would be an intersting point to discuss. Maybe they do sense Harry as Voldemort or like him...

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  #82  
Old November 16th, 2003, 1:12 am
hesdead-dealwithit  Male.gif hesdead-dealwithit is offline
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I've got a small question, partly related to dementors.

If Sirius was less vulnerable to dementors as a dog, why did he change from a dog back into a human when the dementors arrived in PoA?


  #83  
Old November 16th, 2003, 1:16 am
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Heh, I never thought about that... I guess he panicked and transformed back. He was also saying "nooooo, please", so he possibly was trying to plead with them as a last resort. I can easily understand him not being able to think straight in that situation.

And, I haven't checked the book, but did it say exaclty that he was less vulnerable to them as a dog? He was kept sane by the knowledge that he was innocent. They thought he was loosing his mind when he was a dog, but I don't know if that exactly would help him by the lake.



Last edited by Tirwen Lupin; November 16th, 2003 at 1:29 am.
  #84  
Old November 16th, 2003, 1:45 am
hesdead-dealwithit  Male.gif hesdead-dealwithit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirwen Lupin
And, I haven't checked the book, but did it say exaclty that he was less vulnerable to them as a dog? He was kept sane by the knowledge that he was innocent. They thought he was loosing his mind when he was a dog, but I don't know if that exactly would help him by the lake.
Hmmm, not sure, that was always my impression. I always thought that changing to a dog helped keep his sanity as well as having the knowledge that he was innocent. I'll edit this soon when I find it (if no one finds it first )


  #85  
Old November 16th, 2003, 3:26 am
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Actually... Sirius does say that, since he stayed sane from the knowledge that he was innocent, that he could transform into a dog when it become "too much". And since when he was a dog his emotions were less human, he didn't "trouble" the dementors. So it sort of did make him less vulnerable... Though it seems to me that it would help in Azkaban, but not in the situation by the lake.


  #86  
Old November 16th, 2003, 3:26 am
cleansweep11  Female.gif cleansweep11 is offline
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Sirius' emotions were less complex when he was a dog. That helped him because the dementors thought he was breaking down just like everyone else was and they didn't check on him.....the only part that confuses me is why isn't the fact that your innocent a happy thought/feeling?


  #87  
Old November 16th, 2003, 5:01 am
hesdead-dealwithit  Male.gif hesdead-dealwithit is offline
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I've always wondered that too. I guess it would be because it doesn't do anything for him. Even though he was innocent, he was still stuck in a prison with absolutely no hope of getting out, at least until Voldemort returned. Him being innocent didn't help him in any way, so it wasn't a happy thought. It's still a little sketchy, though.


  #88  
Old November 16th, 2003, 4:16 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleansweep11
Sirius' emotions were less complex when he was a dog. That helped him because the dementors thought he was breaking down just like everyone else was and they didn't check on him.....the only part that confuses me is why isn't the fact that your innocent a happy thought/feeling?
I don't think that any of us would be particularly happy knowing we were innocent and stuck in prison yet alone anywhere as bad as azkaban. Surely it would be a sobering thought, not a happy one
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  #89  
Old November 16th, 2003, 4:48 pm
Jill  Female.gif Jill is offline
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It is interesting though that even though Sirius would have felt unhappy about being trapped in Azkaban while innocent, that the dementors did not pick up on the inocence at all. Unless they were already in colusion with Voldemort and Sirius Black true emotions where being masked.

Not sure whether to put this here but well, I have also wondered whether someone very powerful in Occlumancy and Ligamency might be able to reple a dementor by blocking out there minds to them. It might explain how Voldemort seems to be able to control them somewhat. It might also be another reason as to why Snape was not placed into Azkaban because he could get out too easily due to blocking the dementors attempts to access his thoughts.


  #90  
Old November 16th, 2003, 6:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill
It is interesting though that even though Sirius would have felt unhappy about being trapped in Azkaban while innocent, that the dementors did not pick up on the inocence at all.
Well, it seems to me that the dementors aren't very smart. I mean, they don't have a mind of their own. They feast on happy thoughts, but I doubt that they process the happy thoughts individually - they just suck them in. So they don't puck up on anything, much less innocence, IMO. And even if they did pick up on innocence, would they tell anyone? I doubt it - that would just lead to them losing another person to suck thoughts from.


  #91  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:00 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill

Not sure whether to put this here but well, I have also wondered whether someone very powerful in Occlumancy and Ligamency might be able to reple a dementor by blocking out there minds to them. It might explain how Voldemort seems to be able to control them somewhat. It might also be another reason as to why Snape was not placed into Azkaban because he could get out too easily due to blocking the dementors attempts to access his thoughts.
Interesting that you said that. Lupin mentioned in PoA that "there are defenses that one can use." Therefore there has to be more than the Patronus Charm to repel demementors. Both Lupin and Dumbledore shot silver stuff out of their wands to make the dementors go away.


  #92  
Old November 17th, 2003, 7:23 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill
It is interesting though that even though Sirius would have felt unhappy about being trapped in Azkaban while innocent, that the dementors did not pick up on the inocence at all. Unless they were already in colusion with Voldemort and Sirius Black true emotions where being masked.

Not sure whether to put this here but well, I have also wondered whether someone very powerful in Occlumancy and Ligamency might be able to reple a dementor by blocking out there minds to them. It might explain how Voldemort seems to be able to control them somewhat. It might also be another reason as to why Snape was not placed into Azkaban because he could get out too easily due to blocking the dementors attempts to access his thoughts.

Snape was never in Azkaban b/c he was cleared by the council b/c DD shared how he quite being a Death eater before Voldemort's fall and was actually a spy.


  #93  
Old November 17th, 2003, 8:16 am
Jill  Female.gif Jill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kismetgirl
Snape was never in Azkaban b/c he was cleared by the council b/c DD shared how he quite being a Death eater before Voldemort's fall and was actually a spy.
Yes I know Snape was never in Azkaban but I was suggesting that this was another reason as to why Snape was let off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaonashi
Interesting that you said that. Lupin mentioned in PoA that "there are defenses that one can use." Therefore there has to be more than the Patronus Charm to repel demementors. Both Lupin and Dumbledore shot silver stuff out of their wands to make the dementors go away.
Yes I think the dementors can easily be blocked using Occlumancy by a powerful wizard. Even more so I think that ligemency can be used perhaps to extract from the dementor what was taken away in the first place.

So perhaps this is how the wizards are going to over come any attack on them by dementors, or at least I think it may pay a small roll in that defence.


  #94  
Old November 17th, 2003, 11:44 am
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I'd forgotten about the "defences" that could be used, I suppose that there has to be more to repelling dementors than just a patrous.....Legimency falls into that category of defence methinks....

where would they put a legimens so if they could overcome a dememtor or overcome a wizard then? could their abilities/powers be capped? a bit like magneto in XMen and his plastic prison?
Liselle


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  #95  
Old November 17th, 2003, 11:57 am
Jill  Female.gif Jill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle
I'd forgotten about the "defences" that could be used, I suppose that there has to be more to repelling dementors than just a patrous.....Legimency falls into that category of defence methinks....

where would they put a legimens so if they could overcome a dememtor or overcome a wizard then? could their abilities/powers be capped? a bit like magneto in XMen and his plastic prison?
Liselle

I was thinking along the lines of wandless magic wizards being able to do a similar thing without legimens really. You see Snape understood what Harry was thinking in OotP while in umbridges room. Snape used no wand yet was still able to pick up on what Harry was thinking i.e. he did not need the legimens spell for that. So if you can pick up on what people think then surely a powerful wizard could block that person without having to use a wand or anything. So this would also work with a dementor.

Voldemort has control of the dementors somehow and I don't believe that the dementors are under his control willingly.


  #96  
Old November 17th, 2003, 5:18 pm
kismetgirl  Female.gif kismetgirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill
Yes I know Snape was never in Azkaban but I was suggesting that this was another reason as to why Snape was let off.



Yes I think the dementors can easily be blocked using Occlumancy by a powerful wizard. Even more so I think that ligemency can be used perhaps to extract from the dementor what was taken away in the first place.

So perhaps this is how the wizards are going to over come any attack on them by dementors, or at least I think it may pay a small roll in that defence.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but the Snape part does not make sense. Basically, this is what you are saying.

Part of the jury's decision to let an innocent man free was that they didn't feel it was an appropriate punishment.

The key word is innocent.

However, I do agree with you about how someone skilled in Occlumency could block the dementors attack b/c they would be able to theoretically close there mind to them.

I think a more convincing piece from the book for your theory is when Fudge tries to arrest DD and he states that he could of course break out of Azkaban, but has more important things to do.

I don't know about the Legilimency part though. My basic understanding about how the dementor's work is that they make one only see negative thoughts in their head. I don't think that they actually take anything from a person, but instead block one from thinking happy and hopeful thoughts. I hope you have never seen a severely clinically depressed person, but they can not function at all.


  #97  
Old November 17th, 2003, 8:16 pm
Jill  Female.gif Jill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kismetgirl
I don't mean this to sound harsh, but the Snape part does not make sense. Basically, this is what you are saying.

Part of the jury's decision to let an innocent man free was that they didn't feel it was an appropriate punishment.

The key word is innocent.

However, I do agree with you about how someone skilled in Occlumency could block the dementors attack b/c they would be able to theoretically close there mind to them.

I think a more convincing piece from the book for your theory is when Fudge tries to arrest DD and he states that he could of course break out of Azkaban, but has more important things to do.

I don't know about the Legilimency part though. My basic understanding about how the dementor's work is that they make one only see negative thoughts in their head. I don't think that they actually take anything from a person, but instead block one from thinking happy and hopeful thoughts. I hope you have never seen a severely clinically depressed person, but they can not function at all.
Well you have a point the Fudge and Dumbledore conversation, suggesting that it is possible for Dumbledore to break out of Azkaban because he could block them by using occlumancy.

The dementors making you think about what is the worst events of your life, well I am not sure that it is just thinking. I was under the impression that they took away the good points in your life so that you would only be able to see the darkness within yourself.

The kiss of death suggests that they even take the darkness away (your complete soul) leaving you void, empty and soulless and dead. With no escape for your inner self when they have taken that from you.


  #98  
Old November 17th, 2003, 8:36 pm
Lady deMimsy  Female.gif Lady deMimsy is offline
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Maybe this is a little off the point, but the dementors seem to borrow a lot from the Furies in classical mythology, who are also described as sucking away happiness and driving their victims mad:
Quote:
Strange sleeping creatures.
I would call them women but they are not women.
Gorgon-faced, yet not Gorgons.
Black, like the rags of soot that hang in a chimney,
Like bats, yet wingless,
The eyes, the mouth, ulcers.
Their bodies exhale
A stench like maggoty corpses.
Their cloaks are saturated and stained
With their own putrescence
That oozes from them, into the stones.
Who are they? What are they?
Some other kind -- inhuman.
Monsters from a different world,
To be cursed by God and men.
-- Aeschylus, 458 BC
I think it's really cool how JKR borrows so much from different mythological traditions.


  #99  
Old November 17th, 2003, 10:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill

Voldemort has control of the dementors somehow and I don't believe that the dementors are under his control willingly.
I think the voldemort/dementor relationship could be called a "co-operation" for the moment...We know Voldemort is a top class Legimens so he could be controlling them by that, the impervious curse or something we don't know about. Question though if Voldemort is good is Snape better if he hasn't been detected by him?
Liselle


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  #100  
Old November 17th, 2003, 11:28 pm
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It's definitely possible that Snape is better in this one area, of Legilimency and Occlumency. It's not possible for anyone to be the best at anything.

About the dementors, I don't think they were and will be under LV's control unwillingly. After all, the dementors and LV are "natural allies."


 
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