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Snape is Evil



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  #1  
Old July 25th, 2005, 1:32 am
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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Snape is Evil

Discussion of the editorial Snape is Evil by Tracie Rubeck.


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  #2  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:08 am
Remmie  Male.gif Remmie is offline
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I agree with this editorial mostly.

However, it didn't touch upon what is to me the most important part -- Dumbledore PLEADED with Snape. Why? Certainly he wasn't afraid of dying!

:-)


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  #3  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:11 am
EthanL90  Undisclosed.gif EthanL90 is offline
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Wow, great editorial! I'm torn between decisions, but currently I'm leaning towards the Snape-is-evil side. Didn't Snape choose to discuss the plan (in Spinner's End), when in the beginning he said that they shouldn't discuss such matters? He could've avoided the Vow by sticking with his original plan; that Voldemort's word is law and that if he has forbidden it, they shouldn't discuss it. If he wasn't evil, it would come down to who is more important in the war against LV...Dumbledore or Snape? How is Snape going to continue to provide information to the Order when they all mistrust him? DD would have to tell the Order somehow that Snape was still good; so I guess DD would leave it in his will. Anyway, I truly can't decide but I still think this editorial is excellent!


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  #4  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:13 am
RJLupin3_14  Male.gif RJLupin3_14 is offline
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Absolutely, but like I've said earlier, there are enough clues to allow Snape to be a warped good guy. Remember, not everyone is divided up into good guys and death eaters...


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  #5  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:17 am
Prissy  Female.gif Prissy is offline
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I also believe Snape killed for Self Preservation. But We do not know if Snape has killed before. Draco is the innocent lead a stray by raw power.


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  #6  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:24 am
kawood  Undisclosed.gif kawood is offline
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I find it curious that Dumbledore allowed Snape to be the defense against the dark arts teacher, because he tells Harry at one point that no one has held that teaching position for more than one school year since Dumbledore denied Voldemort the position. I feel that this action deserves consideration as to whether Snape is good or evil. Also, if killing makes one evil, Harry is also evil because he will most likely kill Voldemort in the next book, unless there is an O. Henry ending.


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  #7  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:27 am
Awiana  Female.gif Awiana is offline
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Overall, I think this is a good editorial. I'm one of those people who believe Snape is really on DD's side, now more than ever, but I think it was nice to read an editorial from this point of view too. After all, I think it was JKR's intention to make us believe that Snape is evil, and then surprise us in book 7 when it turns out Snape is really on the good side. It will be more of a shock if not everyone believes Snape is on DD's side now.


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  #8  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:30 am
NeuroComp  Undisclosed.gif NeuroComp is offline
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i didn't like the article at all...it left out the argument with AD&SS and dumbledore pleading and ADs kindest towards other people dying(he doesn't want them to unless they evil)...but most importantly it left out

WHERE IS HARRY GONNA GET KNOWLEDGE OF THE WHEREABOUTS OF THE REMAINING HORCRUX?! All this information is gonna come from snapes if he is a ble to remain as spy...it is more than likely that he will be able ot come across the locations of the horcrux as spy then it is for most of the members of the Order and harry himself. Harrys got a few memories yes...can he put them together, i doubt it. Unless there is another spy for the order snapes is their man. But will they be able to trust him...only time will tell. The only thing i see supporting the article is when snapes says "dont' call me a COWARD" thats the only thing that has disturbed me greatly.

if snapes is in it to self preserve...than as cunning as he is he could have left without ever being found. Look at AD was able to hide who knows where...snape coud have even did a fidelius charm and make AD the secret keeper.

perhaps AD quote about how he didn't care how many would die would refute my argument but that was before he told harry everything...it seems like AD would want ot save everyone.

sometimes sacrifices need to be made inorder to succeed.


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  #9  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:32 am
Czechmetz  Female.gif Czechmetz is offline
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This particular editorial left me speechless. I'm glad someone finally put out there how morally wrong it was for Snape to kill Dumbledore, despite the Unbreakable Vow. The Unbreakable Vow shouldn't matter in Snape's case. He should have died rather than make himself a killer.
I am not ashamed to admit that I feel quite like you do regarding Dumbledore's death. I, too, keep trying to remind myself that 'it's just a book.' But then I realized that after growing up with Dumbledore for 6 years, it's no longer 'just a book', it has become a passion, a hobby, something that has bettered me as a person.


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  #10  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:42 am
Robingirl  Female.gif Robingirl is offline
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I completely agree! One question keeps going through my mind: If dumbledoore really wanted snape to kill him, wouldn't they have told the order, How is he gonna spy for them if they think he a murderer. That's one of the huge reasons I believe he is evil.


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  #11  
Old July 25th, 2005, 2:55 am
Slytherine  Male.gif Slytherine is offline
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CAUTION: HBP SPOILER!!!









I have read many theories on this subject, including this one. My personal belief is that Snape is still good. Why would Dumbledore have suddenly become so weak as to just plead to Snape for his life? I don't think he could have. I think that since Dumbledore expected to die after drinking the potion at the Horcrux's location,( or expected to become very weak)he pleaded that Snape would kill him rather than Malfoy to keep Malfoy "pure," assuming Dumbledore already knew of the Unbreakable Vow. His choices protected Harry from danger, kept Malfoy somewhat "pure," kept Snape's connection to spy on Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and killed himself in the process, which he ultimately knew would happen.So, I think Snape is still on the OoTp side. Of course, all these views are from other theories, but I see it much more believeable than the editorial here.


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  #12  
Old July 25th, 2005, 3:06 am
MidlifeCrisis  Undisclosed.gif MidlifeCrisis is offline
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A fence-sitter's response

Good editorial, very good - I can't disagree with most of the points you made. I am really having a hard time making up my mind what I think about Snape, because JKR has deliberately written Snape to be so very ambiguous. Yes, even despite the murder. I can still think that.

So what point can I disagree with, just to play devil's (or Snape's) advocate? The idea that Snape likes secrecy, that he fears exposure, does not seem believable to me. (This of course, does absolutely nothing to shoot down your very well laid out theory that he's totally evil, but maybe I am just obstinate and so I have to write it out anyway).

I don't think Snape LIKES being secretive about his abilities much at all, nor fears exposure for any other reason than that he's spying on Voldy's orders (and one does not disobey or fail Voldy lightly). You can't really throw it in everyone's face that you're the guy who came up with Sectumsempra if you're trying to appear to be a good, law abiding Order member - you have to appear penintent. In fact, I think he absolutely HATES the fact that he can't really wear his nasty little soul on his sleeve and say "Look at me...I'm so brilliant...and yet so awful!" Much like Wormtail (and Voldy himself), I think Snape would like to be appreciated for his deeds - much more than he gets from being DD's trusted inside man.

Indeed, it seems to me, from Harry's reading of his potions book, that he was rather Voldy-esque as a young man. Consider his great fascination with the dark arts, and that he gave himself a new name which both plays on his mother's name (the non-muggle side) and implies he is important. Just like Tom Riddle started calling himself Lord Voldemort, Snape starts to call himself the HBP while at school. He can't come out to his friends about it because he doesn't have any. Who would take him seriously if he started announcing that he was now to be known as the Half-blood Prince? He'd get flipped upside down and we'd be seeing his underpants again quicker than you can say "pompous."

He just can't take credit for all of his dubious accomplishments until the end of book 6, when he is Voldy's favorite, has to pick a side in horribly spectacular fashion, and can reveal his moniker while really throwing his abilities in Harry's face as he's blocking his every spell. To me, all these are signs of a huge, unfulfilled desire to be recognized (and DD hints at this when he loses the Order of Merlin, First Class, after Sirius escapes). In that way, I think he's much, much more like Voldy, and more Voldy's equal than Harry in some ways.

Which, of course, would make it absolutely great if he did something in the end which redeemed him.

On a related note:
I know it's a shred of very tattered hope, but Tracie, don't be too hard on all of us for hanging on to it a bit. I can't tell you others' reasons for giving this Snape-is-really-good theory credence, but for myself, I hate it when good loses (I also hate it that DD could be so horribly, horribly wrong, though it shows us he's human after all). Even if it ultimately triumphs in the end (Go Harry!), when Snape's turning coat, good loses, big time. Perhaps, that, in your opinion, still insults the ethos of the books, but I disagree (bet you'd figured that out by now).

This is the first book in which Harry has not triumphed in some way in the end: DD's dead, he's had to break it off with Ginny, he didn't get a real Horcrux, and Snape turned out to be a bigger git than Percy or Wormtail. We know the worst is yet to come in book 7. (Recall, even if OotP was not a terribly happy book for Harry, at least Voldy didn't hear the prophecy and the Ministry had no choice but to admit he was back. Plus, Harry got some lovely words of comfort from DD. Oh, yeah, and DD got to kick Voldy's butt a little, which is always good for morale.) JKR is brilliantly setting us up for the big finish, and we all know we'll have to go through this pain to see Harry get to the end of the storyline, but nonetheless, it hurts. People want hope. That's not evil nor is it meant to insult JKR, Dumbledore, or any of the other characters that everyone here also loves. It's just human nature.



Last edited by MidlifeCrisis; July 25th, 2005 at 3:23 am.
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  #13  
Old July 25th, 2005, 3:07 am
meeeeegan  Undisclosed.gif meeeeegan is offline
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still torn

good editorial but i'm not completely convinced i still can't decide whether snape is evil or good (well i guess you can't relaly calll someone good if they kill dumbledore no matter what....but you know what i mean)

someone mentioned before the plleading and i agree that dumbledore would NEVER plead or beg with anyone not to kill him...he's just not like that and also he wasn't afraid of death (i hate writing about dumbledore in past tense )

but something about evil snape: i've been wondering what snape told voldemort and dumbledore since they both believed him to be a spy for them obviously he had to give both of them SOME information or they would've realized he's not really helping

and in "spinner's end" snape says that he gave information to voldemort that led to the murder of emmaline vance (one of the order, she was part of the advance gaurd that took harry from privet drive to grimmauld place in book 5)
hmm...

and if dumbeldore wanted snape to kill him, wouldn't he have let the order know so that they could keep using snape as a spy? because right now they all think snape is evil so he wont' be any help to the order even if dumbledore DID want snape to kill him.

...unles dumbledore didnt' know about the unbreakable vow and so he didnt' know that either he or snape would have to die so he couldn't tell the order.

...but woudn't snape have told him about the unbreakable vow???

so very confused...that snape is one crazy crazy character



Last edited by meeeeegan; July 25th, 2005 at 3:18 am.
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  #14  
Old July 25th, 2005, 3:30 am
Beren_1hand  Undisclosed.gif Beren_1hand is offline
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Great editorial, it really makes one think. However Tracie skipped over the one thing everyone else seems to as well. I seem to notice that everyone gets caught up with the fact that Snape flinched during the unbreakable vow. What nobody seems to remember is when Snape says "I believe the Dark Lord intends for me to do it in the end". Exqueese me, baking powder? I think that might be an important little tidbit as well. I believe it's possible that Snape took the vow on Voldemort's orders not Dumbledore's. I mean as good as legitimens (sorry I don't know how to spell it) as Voldy is, it seems unlikely that he wouldn't notice a little dissention in the ranks like Narcissa's doubts.


Snape is evil, plain and simple. Get over it.



Also it occurs to me that Dumbledore's greatness was also to fault in his death. Because he is so great everyone around him trust his judgement without question. Lupin said it himself that he trusts Dumbledore's judgement i.e. he trusts Snape, even though he may not do so otherwise. Harry believed in Dumbledore but still had the presence of mind to question him. Had more done so maybe DD's death could've been avoided.



Last edited by Beren_1hand; July 25th, 2005 at 3:41 am.
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  #15  
Old July 25th, 2005, 3:32 am
Sirius5317  Undisclosed.gif Sirius5317 is offline
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Thank you Beren. I think the editorial is a classic case of OVERANYLIZATION.


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  #16  
Old July 25th, 2005, 3:37 am
DarthDeztrei  Undisclosed.gif DarthDeztrei is offline
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I am torn between the two theories. Could Snape be good, or are the speculators saying this blindly ignoring the blatant truth that Snape has finally shown his true colors? This was a good editorial, the lack of support for Snape being evil after murdering the only person that ever saw good in him was becoming alarming. I have a few questions though.

One, Snape obviously could not have killed Dumbledore if he had not been immensely weakened, but this was not the first time that year that Professor Dumbledore had been at his mercy. When destroying the horcrux in the ring, Dumbledore said without Snape's care he would have died. It is a rare thing to have Dumbledore powerless, and I highly doubt that Voldemort would be angry Snape killed him without Tommy's direct orders. Why did he not kill him at the first opportunity he had?

Second, going back a few book's, why didn't Snape ever tell Dumbledore that Pettigrew was a death eater? He hated Sirius, and he alone new that he was innocent. A school boy grudge has taken a higher toll on lil' Snivelus than I think we can comprehend. Taunting Harry about Sirius' death? Then After killing the most powerful man in the world, betrayal worthy of Judas preportions....Snape takes time to once again allude to his schoolboy days and make a bitter remark about what Harry's dad did a few decades ago, 'he could never take me on without four or five friends...'
Wah wah wah! If highschool effects anyone this much, 'I just murdered my mentor, your daddy was a jerk!', then someone needs to suck there thumb, contemplate life, and LET. THINGS. GO.

I hope Snape is the evil git he's portraying, so Harry can finish off him and his half-blood hypocrite master. Maybe Harry and Draco can team up now, and finish them off together.


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  #17  
Old July 25th, 2005, 4:04 am
MidlifeCrisis  Undisclosed.gif MidlifeCrisis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthDeztrei
One, Snape obviously could not have killed Dumbledore if he had not been immensely weakened, but this was not the first time that year that Professor Dumbledore had been at his mercy. When destroying the horcrux in the ring, Dumbledore said without Snape's care he would have died. It is a rare thing to have Dumbledore powerless, and I highly doubt that Voldemort would be angry Snape killed him without Tommy's direct orders. Why did he not kill him at the first opportunity he had?

Second, going back a few book's, why didn't Snape ever tell Dumbledore that Pettigrew was a death eater? He hated Sirius, and he alone new that he was innocent. A school boy grudge has taken a higher toll on lil' Snivelus than I think we can comprehend. Taunting Harry about Sirius' death? Then After killing the most powerful man in the world, betrayal worthy of Judas preportions....Snape takes time to once again allude to his schoolboy days and make a bitter remark about what Harry's dad did a few decades ago, 'he could never take me on without four or five friends...'
Wah wah wah! If highschool effects anyone this much, 'I just murdered my mentor, your daddy was a jerk!', then someone needs to suck there thumb, contemplate life, and LET. THINGS. GO.

I hope Snape is the evil git he's portraying, so Harry can finish off him and his half-blood hypocrite master. Maybe Harry and Draco can team up now, and finish them off together.

Wow, I must be totally obstinate. I can't believe I am even doing this, but here I am, responding. I find Tracie quite believeable (despite large evidence to the contrary above), but I just can't seem to let this idea go. Perhaps its advancing age.

But DarthDetzrei, I think the reason Snape didn't kill DD when he had the chance after the ring-horcrux was destroyed is because of "The Plan". I mean, of course, the one where Draco is supposed to kill DD or die trying, and then Snape comes in and finishes him off when Draco proves less than equal to the task. If Voldy's quite keen to get his revenge on Lucious, then he would want Draco to take on Mission Impossible (kill Dumbledore) just to get back at Lucious (and perhaps he can sense Narcissa's doubt, too). If Snape deviated from The Plan, woe is him.

I thought your second point about Snape not telling DD that Pettigrew was a DE was excellent. That would, of course, be very convincing evidence that Snape is evil, provided that Snape new about Pettigrew in the first place (depends on who was in on that - it does seem that Voldy keeps secrets from his various DE pals when he's not happy with them). What I wonder is, persuant to my earlier post in response to this editorial, exactly what 'disappointment' Snape suffered when Sirius escaped? I'd assumed all along that it was lack of recognition (losing the Order of Merlin, First Class and on top of that, like you said, not getting to fulfill one of his teen fantasies of seeing Sirius finished, once and for all). But maybe it was to be the one to bring in Sirius...for Voldy? The only evidence I find against this is that Sirius was already discredited in the wizarding world and (until his escape) had safely locked in Azkaban, under the watchful eyes of the Dementors. He didn't seem to pose much of a threat to Voldy even after he got out, though undoubtedly Snape would've enjoyed turning him in to the Ministry anyway. Getting Pettigrew would've been a bigger prize for the DE's by far, since some of them seemed to think he'd double-crossed them and sent Voldy to his demise.



Last edited by MidlifeCrisis; July 25th, 2005 at 4:07 am.
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  #18  
Old July 25th, 2005, 4:12 am
dunidine  Male.gif dunidine is offline
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applause for the editorial, i agree fully, not only honor Dumbledore, but stay loyal to our hero, Harry. He was right all year in HBP about Draco. i, like the editor of this thread, can prove nothing, but Snape said in Spinners End that he planned on doing it in the end, premeditated


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  #19  
Old July 25th, 2005, 4:19 am
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Hm, I liked your editorial, but I don't agree with all of it though. Those of us who still think Snape is secretly on the side of Good aren't blindly looking for evidence. Dumbledore's pleading, the Unbreakable Oath, refusing to harm Harry when he has the perfect chance are just a few clues thrown our way, which if you're right after all will simply turn out ot be a few red herrings.

Do I completely disagree with you? No, You might be very well right and offer you to do Snoopy dances in front of us Snape-lovers when book 7 reveals you're correct. However, we 'Snape-lovers' simply believe that Snape is the counterpart fo Wormtail. Wormtail was on the side of evil, but he was so deep in the Order of the Phoenix that not even other Death Eaters knew he was part of thier cause.

There is no 'over analyzing' in the Potter books. Smallest details in one book turn out to be important clues in another. JKR has hinted that Grindelwald might actually be important after six books of silence. Who knew?


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  #20  
Old July 25th, 2005, 4:21 am
Cried4Sirius  Undisclosed.gif Cried4Sirius is offline
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I totally agree with the editorial, all the points make perfect sense. However, I think you left out a big point, in OOTP after Harry is so angry at Bellatrix Lestrange, so angry he wants to torture her he can't. She killed his godfather, he is furious but he can't cast an Unforgivable Curse because, to quote the heartless b***h herself "You need to mean them[Unforgivable Curses], Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - enjoy it -" Now Snape can't have faked this, to kill someone like that I think you truly have to have evil in you. Though I admit I thought Harry was wrong about Snape being evil all along, I was entirely convinced the moment I read "Snape killed Dumbledore." But I dont want to be dead wrong like Harry and Hermione shippers were (sorry had to throw that in there as a R/H shipper myself) so I'll leave myself open to possibilities. I do think that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, but not like that, I think that Snape is evil, and I loved this editorial after reading for days that "oh blah blah Dumbledore planned, dah dah dah" this was great!


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