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GT #25 - Of Responses and Relationships



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  #81  
Old August 19th, 2005, 4:54 am
jutm543  Undisclosed.gif jutm543 is offline
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I'm glad to hear another guy cried at the end. More power to you, and you write a wonderful editorial.


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  #82  
Old August 20th, 2005, 12:58 am
goofyment  Undisclosed.gif goofyment is offline
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Dumbledore Lives!

I sent Dan an email on this topic hoping he might discuss it in his next editorial, but no such luck. I can't believe every editorial I've read on Mugglenet indicates a belief that Dumbledore is really dead! Before HBP was released, I was sure that Dumbledore had to die for Harry to have a chance at defeating Voldemort, but after reading the book, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Dumbledore is still alive.

To see what really happened on top of the tower, we must first analyze the unbreakable vow Snape made to Narcissa. Snape makes three promises: (1) he promises to watch over Draco "as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes"; (2) he promises, to the best of his ability, to protect Draco from harm; and (3) he promises to "carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform" if (and only if) (a) it should "prove necessary" and (b) "it seems Draco will fail." On a first reading, it looks like the unbreakable vow forces Snape to kill Dumbledore or else die himself. But I disagree. I think we all agree that Snape fulfilled the first two parts of the vow. Where I disagree with the "Dumbledore is dead" camp is on the 3rd part of the vow. I believe that Snape did not have to kill Dumbledore because (1) it was not necessary and (2) Draco did not fail. Draco could not have “failed” because he did not even truly attempt to kill Dumbledore. Because Draco didn’t fail, Snape was not required to kill Dumbledore.

So, if Snape did not kill Dumbledore, what happened up there on the tower? What spell did Snape cast when he pointed his wand at Dumbledore? Based on what we know about how Avada Kedavra works, it is impossible that Snape actually cast AK. The only similarity between AK and the spell that Snape cast is that both produce a flash of green light.

So, what are the other characteristics of AK? When AK is cast, there is (1) a flash of green light, (2) a rushing sound and (3) the victim immediately falls dead with no traces of injury. We have several examples of AK being cast in the books, and it works the same way every time.

Example 1: Voldemort uses AK to kill Frank the muggle in GOF. "There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled." (U.S. p. 15).

Example 2: Moody/Crouch shows the 4th year DADA class how AK operates. "There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound . . . instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakably dead." (U.S. p. 216).

Example 3: Wormtail uses AK to kill Cedric. The is a flash of green light, and Cedric's body falls directly to the ground beside Harry. (U.S. p. 638).

Note that in every example in which AK is used, the victim is killed instantly and falls to the ground where he, she or it was standing. However, the spell Snape cast caused Dumbledore to fly up into the air and back over the rampart. This detail alone should prove conclusively that the spell cast was not Avada Kedavra. So, what spell did Snape cast? The answer should be obvious to anyone who paid attention to Chapter 12 of HBP: "Pointing his wand at nothing in particular, [Harry] gave it an upward flick and said Levicorpus! Inside his head. . . . There was a flash of light and . . . Ron was dangling upside down." (U.S. p. 239).

Now, JK is smart and tricky, so she doesn't want to make it too obvious that Snape cast Levicorpus; so, she declines to indicate that the flash of light accompanying Levicorpus is green. Still, the other characteristics of the spell make it obvious that it is the one Snape truly cast.

First, Levicorpus was explicitly designed to be a nonverbal spell (U.S. p. 238-39). Thus, Snape could cast Levicorpus while saying "Avada Kedavra," and the words he spoke would have been superfluous and completely inconsequential.

Second, the spell Snape cast acted like Levicorpus. Harry "was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight." (U.S. p. 596). Thus, Snape used Levicorpus to lift Dumbledore over the edge of the tower and set him down at the bottom next to his wand, which conveniently flew off the tower after Draco disarmed him (U.S. p. 584).

Once Dumbledore was safely back on the ground, he used his wand to perform the spell he had just offered to perform on Draco: "[Voldemort] cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely that you can possibly imagine." (U.S. p. 591-92). Thus, Dumbledore made it look as though he was dead in order to hide himself from Voldemort (and so that Harry will be forced to step up and accept the burden of his role as the chosen one).

The question we should be debating is not whether Snape (a.k.a. the-professor-who-must-not-be-named) is really a Death Eater. He obviously isn't. Rather, we should be debating why it was necessary for Dumbledore to make everyone believe that he is dead (aside from the obvious reason stated above).

-- Goofyment


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  #83  
Old August 20th, 2005, 1:46 am
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i never liked Snape

Personally I never liked Snape, still I didnt thought him too evil,cause Dumbledore trusted him, Why did he trust him so much, Ithink Jk has a story she hasnt told us and that we will learn in the next book, there must have been something big to make a clever man,and a great oclumenstrust Snape,any way what I think of him is not definete yat, I still have my doubts, if he was a real death eater, wouldnt he have helped Quirrel in the first book, instead of stopping him,then saving Harry life in that match in book one,and giving Umbridge a fake verasitaseum to prevent Harry from spilling allhe knew it all kind of make him look abit good, of course he never liked Harry and did all he could to get him into trouble and took as much points from him as he could but all this was irrelevant and was not harming him really,yet in the last book, when he makes the unbreakable vow, and agrees to do what V asked I got suspicious, though I never expected him to kill Dumbledore... or did he
After reading some editorials I remembered tht when Dumbledore sees him and says something like Severus Please...Is like he is asking not for his life but for something else... to stick to a plan forged earlier... or to really kill him as something necesary to remain onV side and be able to assist Harry later...
I dont think of Dumbledore as a man pleading for his life, even when feeling weak.
Im still confused and dont know yet what to believe.What I do know is that Harry really needs to get over this blocking he has over Snape cause if he really is a Death eater, he could give him more trouble than Voldemort himself.


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  #84  
Old August 21st, 2005, 8:26 am
rach_rach  Undisclosed.gif rach_rach is offline
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haha. nice editorial, dan. you took the words outta my mouth. i've been a hr/r shipper forever, and seeing that all the hr/h shippers just roll their eyes at you when you try to explain how OBVIOUS the clues are, i gave up. i'm not saying that harry and hermione makes a bad couple, i'll be glad if they hooks up, but the clues are just....ok what i said, obvious.
i hated snape for years. then i realized how a important character he is. a spy of voldemort. and dumbledore believes that snape is his man, and i believe in dumbledore. theres like so many editorials about "dumbledore is not dead, snape is not evil", and i'm not gonna re-explain everything since i totally agree.
and about harry being a horcrux...i had that thought stuck in my head forever. mostly i agree with you, dan, but if voldemort knows that after you destroy the "horcrux part" of a horcrux, it will still be there, then everything is messed up. if harry can still be alive without any harm after he destroy the "horcrux part" of himself, then why did voldemort turn harry into a horcrux?
what i thought is, yes, the ring and diary are still here after the "horcrux part" of them were destroyed, but ring and diary are not alive, so they can't die. but harry is alive, so maybe he will die after he destroy the "horcrux part" of himself?
ok that seemed stupid and pointless. i suck at these stuff. but it's just a thought


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Last edited by rach_rach; August 21st, 2005 at 8:28 am.
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  #85  
Old August 21st, 2005, 5:36 pm
Weaselette  Female.gif Weaselette is offline
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that was a good editorial, except for one thing. Snape is evil. There was a "look of hatred" in his face when he killed Dumbledore. Why would he do that? Perhaps he was faking the hatred to seem like he was really on Voldemort's side? I doubt it. the hatred was described to be in the very lines of his face, something which i think demonstrates genuine hatred. Dumbledore was not pleading with Snape to kill him but to spare him, not out of fear of death but out of a knowledge that his help is still much needed...it wasn't his "time to die" if you follow me.


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  #86  
Old August 21st, 2005, 9:06 pm
StarAStar  Undisclosed.gif StarAStar is offline
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I have mentioned in some thread, maybe this one?, that one very good reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape as long and loud as he has done is that DD had SS make an Unbreakable Vow. Something that is consistent with SS adding the triple vow to NM. SS possibly concerned about third part being in conflict with DD vow.
DD later acts as if he knew about SS /NM UV when Harry reports overheard conversation. Unknown is if SS told DD about all three parts.


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  #87  
Old August 24th, 2005, 9:44 pm
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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I think it is a bit far-fetched to assume that Snape said, "Avada Kevadra" and thought "levicorpus" in his head. *In response to 'goofyment'* And yes, there has been an instance where a man has arched backward in the air, and fallen slowly to the ground, dead. Sirius.


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  #88  
Old August 25th, 2005, 12:44 pm
goofyment  Undisclosed.gif goofyment is offline
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socks2 wrote: "yes, there has been an instance where a man has arched backward in the air, and fallen slowly to the ground, dead. Sirius."

I don't see how this is relevant to my theory. (1) Sirius was not killed by Avada Kedavra; he was killed by passing through the veil. (2) Even if he had been killed by AK, he was not lifted off the ground by the spell; he simple fell backward where he was standing. (3) My version of OOTP does not say Sirius fell slowly; he "sank backward through the ragged veil" and disappeared.


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  #89  
Old August 25th, 2005, 4:26 pm
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I thought that was a good editorial. And I personally agree very much with the part about Harry/Hermione shippers. I mean, it's pretty ridiculous to continually insist that Harry and Hermione are going to hook up before the end of their seventh year at the school when they really have no physical attraction for each other (no offence or anything).

Anyways, onto another topic. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Voldemort somehow made Harry a Horcrux, but can a person really survive if the Horcrux on them is destroyed? If Harry's scar is a Horcrux, and he or somebody else destroyed the Horcrux, I hope against hope that Harry survives because I don't think anybody would really know about Voldemort's past and his way of thinking like Harry and Dumbledore, and in that sense, nobody would know Voldemort's weaknesses.

Harry could tell whatever Dumbledore told him in their lessons to McGonagall, but how long would it take before she acted? McGonagall is a stern woman and sometimes, if she's really busy doing other things, she tends to kind of think twice about what Harry is telling her. But all in all, if Harry does return to Hogwarts in September, I do hope that he helps McGonagall and whatever members of the Order of the Phoenix that are at Hogwarts keeping guard. The Order and every Auror in the Ministry of Magic would need as much information as Harry could possibly give them, and I do hope he gets as much help searching for all the Horcruxes, not just from Ron and Hermione, but from other members of the wizarding community. What do you think?


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  #90  
Old August 25th, 2005, 10:48 pm
ardna  Female.gif ardna is offline
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soooooooo

Well I´m 24, out of college too, and I droped a few tears! Loved the Article I think you are right, forget the H/Hr thing and find something better to do like reading the books again so you can see how obvious the R/Hr thing was.


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  #91  
Old August 26th, 2005, 4:49 pm
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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goofyment,

hey you're right! it doesn't mention the color of the light that hits sirius. weird. so we could assume that he died either by avada kevadra, or by falling through the veil...as far as dying slowly, the text just says, "It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward throught the ragged veil hanging from the arch..." ch. 35, pg 806.

I just pictured the 'graceful arc' as him being slightly lifted off the ground.

As for the Dumbledore is alive theory...

Who is the white tomb created around if it is not Dumbledore? And why does JKR say in her interview, that she killed off Sirius and Dumbledore because it is more satisfying, in these kinds of novels, if the hero goes on alone? Is Dumbledore really going to fake his death so that Harry can go on alone to kill Voldy, and then come back afterwards and say, "surprise!! I wasn't really dead!"?


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  #92  
Old August 26th, 2005, 7:13 pm
goofyment  Undisclosed.gif goofyment is offline
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I think the tomb could be created around a fake body or no body at all (perhaps Dumbledore was there originally, but transformed into the phoenix to fly away as the tomb was about to encase him). As for Harry going alone, I think Dumbledore realizes that's the way it has to be. But I don't expect Dumbledore to be quietly doing nothing. By disappearing, I think he is free to continue the work of destroying horcruxes so that when the time comes, Harry will be able to defeat Voldemort.


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  #93  
Old August 26th, 2005, 8:00 pm
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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hmm...I suppose. That would be cool if dumbledore was still alive. But if it got out in the open that he was, do you think he'll die again (for real, this time), in book seven? And do you think that Snape will ever be trusted by the Order?


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  #94  
Old August 27th, 2005, 3:10 am
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Even though I would love DD to be alive, I dont think he is,he certainly wasnt afarid of death,and why would he fake it knowing Harry really needed him,unless this was all a plan, I kinda thought it myself but now I dont think so,The AK was really said and he did nothing to defend himself, and we Know the spell hit him,and besides all this we know he was feeling weak...
Then the poison he drank,supposing it was a poison,could it all be part of a plan,that he and Snape placed it there just to enable Snape to kill him fakely and gain LV trust In SS Snape did say something like...I can Teach you how to...Stopper death or something like this...I know is far fetched,just thought I share this craziness that came to my mind while reading opinions about DD being alive.
After All there is a saying in my country that goes Lo ultimo que se pierde es la esperanza...
In English it means that hope is the last thing you loose.


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  #95  
Old August 29th, 2005, 9:25 pm
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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yea, i don't think he's alive either, mainly because even though we, as readers, are attached to him as a character, the story would not be as satisfying if he somehow turned up alive. harry is the hero of the book, not dumbledore.

tenemos esperanza para la victoria de harry y el bien! Y por eso, en teoria, no hemos perdido la esperanza (Did I say that right?)



Last edited by socks2; August 30th, 2005 at 2:31 am.
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  #96  
Old August 31st, 2005, 1:25 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socks2
yea, i don't think he's alive either, mainly because even though we, as readers, are attached to him as a character, the story would not be as satisfying if he somehow turned up alive. harry is the hero of the book, not dumbledore.

tenemos esperanza para la victoria de harry y el bien! Y por eso, en teoria, no hemos perdido la esperanza (Did I say that right?)
Sure you did.and I totally agree with you, you sort of get attached to this characters eventhough yu know they are fictional,imagine if Harry does die...I dont know but I would surely cry, hes lke a close friend.


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  #97  
Old August 31st, 2005, 4:28 am
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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i know!!

But a part of me kind of thinks that the story wouldn't have as good of a finish if he (harry) didn't die. througout the last few books, it's been evident that his main purpose in life is to kill voldemort...

once he has done that, then what? can you really ever picture him leading a normal, quiet life?

yea, but it will still be sad. it's weird how we get attached to fictional characters. I remember being VERY angry after reading that DD had died!!

haha! YES! FINALLY i do something right in spanish!!!!


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  #98  
Old September 1st, 2005, 4:25 am
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Well ,congratulations then.
About Harry,I expect that too,even if I dont want it to become true,but I think that is what is most likely to happen.
Then again,I wont give up my hopes until she writes it and I read it after all JK is very creative,she could give us a great ending without killing him,How I dont know,shes kinda of a witch herself.


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  #99  
Old September 2nd, 2005, 12:58 pm
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Interesting editorial, gave me alot to think about.

Firstly, I must say that I disagree about Harry being a Horcrux. It seems to me that, throughout the book, DD is arming Harry with all the information he will need to potentially triumph over LV. Therefore, if he even suspected that Harry is a HX, why wouldn't he tell Harry. That being said, I have alot of trouble imagining that DD would not have already thought of it and ruled it out. (I say ruled it out because he did not mention it to Harry.) DD is so wise and smart that I'm sure he examined Harry very closely and probably determined that Harry was not a hx and that is why he did not mention anything to Harry.

Secondly, Snape. I agree with you (Dan). I think that when DD was "pleading", it was to encourage Snape to do what must be done. And, I think that, when Snape is described as showing "revulsion and hatred", it was because of what he had to do and that this was not aimed at DD.

As for DD being alive, I also thought so at first, but I no longer think so. I wish it were true, but I don't think that JK would give us 2 important deaths or possible deaths in one book (#7). I think the focus truly must be on Harry and his mission to find the last horcruxes and his impending battle with LV. I guess that, at this point, it's more a question of litterary formula: the mentor must eventually die to leave tha place to the hero.

Finally, a little theory and something to ponder. The theory, I think that Fawkes will return in the 7th book and become Harry's pet. He is afterall a pheonix and Harry is "Dumbledore's man through and through"

To ponder, I wonder how Peter Pettigrew will pay back his life debt to Harry. As for as I can remember, he hasn't yet. Maybe PP will surprise us and, at a culminating moment, save Harry from LV. It's something to think about.

Well, as you can tell, this is my first post and I've just joined the forum. I look forward to your other editorials and to reading the other members comments. I'm enjoying practicing my dissortation muscles (it's been years - I won't say how many).

Later!


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  #100  
Old September 2nd, 2005, 9:10 pm
socks2  Undisclosed.gif socks2 is offline
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Quote:
To ponder, I wonder how Peter Pettigrew will pay back his life debt to Harry.
I wonder further, how Snape will pay back his life debt to James...


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