Is Four the Magic Number?

plainlypotter--

I totally sidestepped DD's brother! I think you are 100% correct in your ideas and it will be interesting to see who we meet "properly" in book 7. The thing that most bothers me, however, is that JKR told us that in book 6, we would discover exactly why DD trusts Snape. As far as I could tell, nothing was revealed that explicitly conveyed the answer. I just feel that too much hinges on RAB, the locket, and the Snape connection (obviously, Snape is central to the series since he bears the name of the HBP book). I'm going to read OP again and attempt to pull some information from the Regulus/Sirius/Snape relationships, but at this point, I'm not sure there is enough information about Regulus to say whether or not he is actually dead (even though she told us he was). I have a feeling that Snape not eating at Number 12 GP has more to do with the plot than JKR has revealed......My what a tangled web she's weaved!

I have a theory that one of the curses is Harry's scar? Do we really know yet what the connection is between the scar and LV.

I really did enjoy the editorial.

[plainlypotter]

Originally Posted by NiceOrc

Nagini was also in the graveyard when Voldemort was resurrected. I don't know, but is there any chance that this is the graveyard where Harry's parents are buried? IF it is, could Harry meets Nagini there when he visits his parents graves in bk 7?

I rather doubt that this is where Harry 's parents were buried mostly because godrics hollow is the name of the town and the graveyard is in little hangleton. But that doesn't mean Harry wont' meet Nagini in godric's hollow, but I somehow doubt it mostly because LV keeps nagini close and Harry intends to go to godric's hollow right after he turns 17.

Originally Posted by GryffindorCor

plainlypotter--

I totally sidestepped DD's brother! I think you are 100% correct in your ideas and it will be interesting to see who we meet "properly" in book 7. The thing that most bothers me, however, is that JKR told us that in book 6, we would discover exactly why DD trusts Snape. As far as I could tell, nothing was revealed that explicitly conveyed the answer. I just feel that too much hinges on RAB, the locket, and the Snape connection (obviously, Snape is central to the series since he bears the name of the HBP book). I'm going to read OP again and attempt to pull some information from the Regulus/Sirius/Snape relationships, but at this point, I'm not sure there is enough information about Regulus to say whether or not he is actually dead (even though she told us he was). I have a feeling that Snape not eating at Number 12 GP has more to do with the plot than JKR has revealed......My what a tangled web she's weaved!

I think JK has actually told us why DD trust snape - check out when Harry meets Trelawney after she has been tossed from the RoR p545 HBP US ed.
Trelawney says that she saw snape and that afterward DD decides to hire her . For trelawney to have heard this she had to have completed the prophesy ( Harry wasn't able to wake trelawney in the middle of the prophesy about wormtail ) and that would suggest the snape heard the whole prophesy and not just the first part as DD has been telling Harry. If , as I suspect, snape heard the whole prophesy and only told LV the first part of the prophesy, DD's trust could be based on this. Snape would have known that LV had to mark the one who would be able to kill him, as DD points out, if he had not taken the prophesy and acted on it Harry would not have been marked and there would have been no way to stop LV. ( see DD's explaination of Lily's choice to stand in front of harry. ) Of course this is just my opinion, and book seven could just as easily prove me wrong as right

For more of my crazy theories check out the phoenix files page 14 #279.

[thewidowblack]

I've said this before, I truly don't believe the horcruxes are scattered around the school for Harry to find like a treasure hunt. First of all, how and when would Voldemort even get back to the school after he was denied the D.A.D.A. job? Second, it's just too easy. I really think the cup is in the orphanage where Tom Riddle grew up. It is significant because he loathed the place, but it is also where he found out he was a wizard. I think the building, now, is no longer used by Muggles and has enchantments all over it. I also think that instead of having to look for less horcruxes, Harry actually has to look for one more. Voldemort knows the diary was destroyed. So he will not have his magical 7 that he seems to think he needs. Perhaps he made another one when he killed Amelia Bones, and he might have made it with whatever artifact he was going to us as a horcrux when he went to kill baby Harry.

[BublGumPnkHar]

Originally Posted by plainlypotter

I think JK has actually told us why ** trust snape - check out when Harry meets Trelawney after she has been tossed from the RoR p545 HBP US ed.
Trelawney says that she saw snape and that afterward ** decides to hire her . For trelawney to have heard this she had to have completed the prophesy ( Harry wasn't able to wake trelawney in the middle of the prophesy about wormtail ) and that would suggest the snape heard the whole prophesy and not just the first part as ** has been telling Harry. If , as I suspect, snape heard the whole prophesy and only told LV the first part of the prophesy, **'s trust could be based on this. (cut)

The only problem with this theory, is that Dumbledoe told Harry (while talking in the Weasley's shed)

"there are only two people in the whole world know the full contents of the prophecy made about you and Lord Voldemort, and they are both standing in this smelly, spidery broom shed".

Page 78 US. -- Now in PS/SS, Dumbledore told Harry, he might not answer his question, but that he would never lie to him. Why should he start now? If Snape heard the whole prophecy, but only told part to Voldemort, and that is why Dumbledore trusts him, then he is now lying to Harry. I don't think this is going to happen.

[sayre]

OK, i understand your arguments, but there are a lot of presumptions that you make:

Just because Nagini was once at the Riddle House doesn't mean that is where she still is. That's like saying that, since we last see Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic Atrium, he must still be there... IF (and that is a monsterous 'if') Nagini is a Horcrux, wouldn't Voldemort want her with him so he could feed her and keep her alive? Or, at least have her around to occasionaly inhabit? I know he has no feelings of love, but I hardly think he would leave her behind since she has been such an asset to have in the first place.

But, then again, that assumes that Dumbledore is correct in his presumptions of what the Horcruxes actually are. He foreshadows that he is fallible and, when he makes mistakes, they are huge. This is a big, bright red flag that says 'OK readers, you can't take what Dumbledore says as fact anymore...' J.K. Rowling couldn't have been more obvious with that message.

But, i do agree with you that Voldemort's body was killed that night at Godric's Hollow. The Avada Kedarva curse rebounded and killed him, but he was not ultimately killed because he had a Horcrux (6 actually) that anchored his soul and prevented him from fully dying.

And, we also know that two of the other Horcruxes (the diary and the ring) were destroyed. Beyond that, we don't know for sure what else happened--so you can't assume that the locket Horcrux was destroyed or that we know what any of the remaining Horcruxes are.

I hope that the Horcruxes take us all by surprise, and that we, again, are totally awed by J.K.Rowling's genius.

Now, having gone through the comments, I have a few of my own:

BJTexan says:
And don't think I'm insulting your editorial as being outlandish, I wrote 2 articles for the Burrow this month and both are just as, if not more, unlikely as yours.

You skirted it, but only lightly. People in glass houses...

Additionally, people say that it is still a horcrux because it shows no damge like the diary and the cracked ring. However, what if the damage to the locket was that it melted together? Then that would take care of the damage part and explain why it could not be opened.

Or, it maybe couldn't be opened because it has a piece of soul inside it.

AnimagHedwig says:
Also, I believe that Lucius Malfoy had the Diary and Lucius placed it in Ginny's "stuff" at Flourish and Blott's.

Um, was there another way it was supposed to happen?

crevecoeur says:
What happened in Godric's Hollow was unusual in the extreme, because Harry did not die. Voldemort's soul, being anchored to this world by the other horcruxes, was torn from his body as his physical being was destroyed by the rebounding curse. His soul didn't tear when he tried to kill Harry, because he didn't succeed in committing the intended murder. The real question I have is whether Tom Riddle intended to create seven horcruxes or to have a soul in seven parts (with one part in his proper body). This would be a great one to ask JK.

Well said. Your whole comment was very interesting. Thanks

phoenix5 says:
Obviously we don’t know what happened that Halloween night, but the fact the house was blown apart is a big clue to the fact that it was not your average Avada Kedavra.

How do you know that the house was blown apart by the Avada Kedavra? That's the flimsiest 'fact' i've read thus far.

RachelMe says:
I think some of us are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be. Trust me, it's complicated enough.

Hahaha! I agree. Not with the rest of your post, but with this sentence

plainlypotter says:
I think what JK was trying to say was that you have the main piece of the original soul ( the piece that now resides in V's newly formed body). That piece is the only one that can not die completely until all the other pieces have died. The cup horcrux is part of the original as is the ring, the diary and so on, but because the pieces are not part of each other they can be estroyed. In other words the orignial horcrux ( presumably the diary ) lopped off 1/2 of the original sould that half only is part of the orignal, not part of any of the others because they didn't exist at the time the horcrux was made.

Wow that's convoluted. But, you missed the point. The Horcruxes are merely anchors. They are parts of the soul that are used only to ensure that the originator cannot be killed. One anchor is not more powerful than another, and you are getting yourself all mixed up in the math of halving half of souls... See above quote.

NiceOrc says:
Nagini was also in the graveyard when Voldemort was resurrected. I don't know, but is there any chance that this is the graveyard where Harry's parents are buried?

Why, in the name of J.K.Rowling, would the Potters be buried outside of Tom Riddle's house? No, there is no chance. Sorry.

thewodowblack says:
I've said this before, I truly don't believe the horcruxes are scattered around the school for Harry to find like a treasure hunt.

I agree. Actually, i tend to agree with most of your posts--even on the other forums. Nice

OK, that's all. Sorry if I bored some of you... This was by far my longest post ever.

[Vampirjaeger]

my first post, but i was attracted to the essay because in reading the HBP, my logic tells me that the piece of soul in voldy when he attacked the potters should have died when the avada kedavra curse backfired, and voldy didn't die, precisely because he had 6/7ths of his soul stashed away in other places. if this 1/7th of voldy's soul didn't die, then just what is the purpose of the horcruxes? it seems the other six pieces of soul are held in reserve, so to speak, in case the piece residing in the body gets done in. and if an avada kedavra curse can't kill the body's piece of soul, it seems the horcruxes are utterly superfluous.
well, until we get more information on how horcruxes are made and function and how they are destroyed we are all mostly making our best guesses at how many active horcruxes must be tracked down. but i really think the ridicule for the idea that voldy's body soul-piece died when the killing curse backfired is unwarranted and fails to account for the difficult matter of the curse not killing, and the purpose for making horcruxes in the first place.

[SusanBones]

Here is the way I envision the whole "horcruxes anchor a soul" theory. I picture Voldemort's soul as a tent and the horcruxes as the tent stakes, holding the tent to the earth. As each stake (horcrux) is destroyed, the tent still stays put. So when the AK that Voldemort hit Harry with rebounded and destroyed Voldemort's body, since his soul was bascially the tent, and not the stake, he did not lose a horcrux.

[Ginny_S]

Hi! Well, I can say that I have enjoyed all the discussions on my little essay. It was submitted July 24th (my first), so not that long after HBP publication, and I had given up hope that it would be posted in the Burrow. Imagine my surprise not only to see it there, but to see all of your discussion as well. I will try to clarify points where I am able...

Are the soul fragments equal?
At this point, we can only hypothesize. Really, the argument can be supported in either case, and only JKR's counts. It think it comes down to a basic idea of whether all the fragments of Voldemort's soul are equal. I would say yes, because as Tom Riddle continued down his path of dark magic, he became less and less human, presumably due to the fractionation of his soul. In addition, the diary fragment of his soul in CoS could function independently, and if we are to believe his rantings in the chamber, the death of Ginny Weasley would have restored Voldemort to a body as well as to power. Therefore, it must follow that the soul fragment in the horcrux is not simply an anchor, but a fully independent part of Voldemort, that has the capability of being restored to full life. To go further, the soul fragment in the diary had knowledge that obviously came after that fateful October 31st - the soul fragment in the diary knew of Harry Potter, and knew that somehow he had been vanquished by a rebounded killing curse. Yes, it is possible that this information was passed along by Ginny's writing in the Diary, but what if it wasn't? Is there a cosmic connection between the soul fragments allowing them to possess the memory of the "active fragment"? While this is again just crazy theory, I think there is support from CoS for a soul fragment in a horcrux to be capable of being restored to full life, making it more than an anchor. By extension, to destroy Voldemort, one must destroy all his soul fragments, to prevent any further resurrections.

What happens to a soul fragment when its receptacle is destroyed?
If all fractions are equal - then what happened when a horcrux is destroyed, and at least two (and I would argue three) have been. What happens to the soul once released from its receptacle? Are there in fact another 2-3 "Vapormorts" travelling around? There is no evidence for this, and Dumbledore tells us that they are gone permanently. If the horcrux soul fragments have gone, i.e. died, then what happens to a soul fragment when the body receptacle is destroyed? It too, must be released and die. Why would a body receptable be any different that a horcrux receptacle? I don't think it is, meaning that (original body, locket, diary, ring) four Voldemorts have left the building.

Why Voldemort has never known death.
If each soul fragment is lost/died, it leaves the others remaining, each of which that is left has not known death. So, technically, the idea that the current incarnation has never died is not incompatible with this theory.

Can a soul leave the horcrux unaided?
I don't think so, and again, we have to go back to the CoS. The diary Tom Riddle could only function through possession, and required Ginny's death to return presumably to a body. A live person is required.

Death Eaters and the Horcruxes
If a live person is required to mediate release of the soul from the horcrux, then minimally ONE follower of Voldemort must have been privy to the secret. This person would be entrusted with the knowledge of where they were hidden, how to retrieve them (lot of good it would do to have the one person with knowledge killed while retrieving it), and how to bring him back. The only person who claims to be closest to Voldemort is Bellatrix. He even (affectionately?) calls her Bella, so who knows? Bellatrix is shocked that Snape knew of Voldemort's plans for Draco - she must believe that she is privy to all knowledge - because she was entrusted with the horcrux knowledge? It then follows that upon Voldemort's death October 31st, that she then initiated a search for the horcrux to resurrect her master, only to discover that RAB has stolen at least one part. Perhaps Bella knew only of the one horcrux, or perhaps she knew the location of all, but she went off in search of it, with the trail leading right to the Longbottoms, leading to their torture for information in my opinion. Again, Neville was not a target of Bellatrix's attack that night, and torture is only to gain information. Her imprisonment stopped Voldemort from being resurrected sooner.

Why have Nagini, a simple short lived creature, as a horcrux?
Who says she is simply a snake. Yes, I would agree that putting your soul into something that can only live a short time when the quest is for immortality would be foolish. What if Nagini, is not simply a gifted snake, but a very young basilisk? It would fit - since they have a tremendously long life span, and would fit with the Slytherin heritage. Just an idea.

Why is the cup in the room of requirement and how would Harry access it?
I think he already has. No, it would not work to walk past three times and say "I need Voldemort's cup". Didn't work for finding out what Malfoy was up to. Rather, with the departure of Snape from Hogwarts, Harry will now be free to return to the Room and Requirement and find his HBP Potions Book. Trelawney used that room to hide her sherry bottles. It seems like when you need to hide something, that the RoR does not give you a private storage facility. Rather, a generic room with the stuff hidden of ages appears. While the list specifically given to us in HBP does not include a "cup", there is mention of various articles including valuables such as jewels. Couldn't Voldemort have gone by the room thinking, I need a hiding place, and it appeared? I think the idea will cross Harry (or Hermione's mind) that there may be something hidden in the RoR? Or, he might retrieve his book and stumble past it, now that he knows what he is looking for and its significance.

Is Harry a horcrux?
Can't be, if we are to believe the prophesy. One cannot live while the other survives? The curse was also meant to kill Harry. I just can't see it.

Dumbledore's calculations can't be wrong.
Oh, I think he's proven to us how wrong he can be, and admits that his mistakes are truly costly. As another argument, let me remind you of the tasks guarding the Sorceror's stone. What was Snape's? Magic? No, a logic puzzle. Hermione tells us that great wizards are often hopeless when it comes to logic. Who is the greatest wizard? Dumbledore. So who's logical reasoning may very well be flawed? His as well. Just a thought. Hermione will need to re-think this for Harry, and I believe, will come up with a number less than four for the number of horcruxes that need to be found.

The Locket in 12 Grimmauld Place
I had totally forgotten this point way back when I wrote the article. Yes, I agree that this is the locket, but disagree as to the reasoning that because Harry et al could not open it that it was harmless. Maybe not - to prove it - I would need to see one of two things happen:
1. That a wizard of age tried to open it. As with the boat, the magic guarding it did not recognize an underage wizard. Perhaps the locket was similarly dormant.
2. What if they tried to open it with their wands? They tried the muggle way, being underage and forbidden from using magic outside of Hogwarts. If the locket was attempted to be opened by magic, a very different result may occur unless it had been previously inactivated.
I think we have the locket, and its possession by Kreacher demonstrates that RAB took it and presumably inactivated it, but we'll find out for sure only in book 7.

Thank you again for all of your kind comments on the essay. I'm looking forward to reading more of your comments.

[plainlypotter]

Originally Posted by BublGumPnkHar

The only problem with this theory, is that DD told Harry (while talking in the Weasley's shed) Page 78 US. -- Now in PS/SS, DD told Harry, he might not answer his question, but that he would never lie to him. Why should he start now? If Snape heard the whole prophecy, but only told part to VM, and that is why DD trusts him, then he is now lying to Harry. I don't think this is going to happen.

I don;t think DD was lying exactly - he was just not telling him the whole truth - much like Jk Rowling. I think he thought about telling Harry everything when Harry comes to him and tells DD about what he overheard during slughorn's christmas party ( check out pg 358 HP US ed. toward the bottom). DD's hesitation before he tells Harry "thank you for telling me... " appears that he was having thought about revealing "the rest of the story" as paul harvey would say.

sayre

To answer your assessment - I was not trying to do a math lesson I was trying to explain why you could destroy the parts and not have it effect the piece that remains in LV.

JoeF wrote

Also, if the piece in his body can't be killed, how can the other's be killed? A piece of soul is a piece of soul regardless of where it is housed. Don't you think that the cup Horcrux could ahve prevented the piece of soul in the ring from being killed as well as it could have protected the piece in LV's body? Since we know the soul pieces in the Horcuxes can be killed, it stands to reason the piece in VD's body can as well.

True you could kill the current body Lv is using , but you couldn't kill the soul that resides there until all the other pieces that are housed in the horcruxes were dead as they anchor the last piece which is current housed in the LV corporale form. Maybe this is clearer than the math - thanks for pointing that out.

[JohnDL]

I'd like to backtrack a bit to the ES/MA interview, which says:

"MA: Here at the end you sort of get the feeling that we know what Harry’s setting out to do, but can this really be the entire throughline of the rest of the story?

JKR: It's not all of it. Obviously it's not all of it, but still, that is the way to kill Voldemort. That's not to say it won't be extremely an torturous and winding journey, but that's what he's got to do. Harry now knows — well he believe he knows – what he’s facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.

ES: It's a tall order.

JKR: It's a huge order. But Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say."

So: How do we take that?

1: "Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark." seems to be a statement by Jo that DD is in fact mistaken about at least one horcrux, but probably not more than one.

2: "I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do." The last sentence, taken at face value, seems to tell us that there are in fact specifically four more to be gotten rid of (though there is a bit of wiggle room here).

It seems that the horcrux that DD is most likely mistaken about would be Nagini, would it not? He, after all, states plainly that he is not sure about that one. There are plenty of hints in the first five books that Harry has a piece of Voldemort in him, and the conjunction of these two facts is what has led to the Harry-horcrux theories.

As to the "soul": Since JKR is using an alchemical symbol set throughout the books (see the CoSforums threads on Achemy for details and links to source materials), we should consider the possibility that "soul" in HP does not mean what we moderns are assuming it does. We tend to equate "soul" and "spirit" but the alchemists (and almost all of prescientific Europe) did not do that. Spirit was the essence, and was identified with air, for when you stopped breathing you died. Soul was more what we think of nowadays as "mind," and we know that the dementor's kiss will suck out your soul- your mind- leaving your body and presumably your spirit alive, but incapable of action or thought.

If this is JKR's usage of the term "soul," then it would seem to be necesary to take the horcrux discussion in a slightly different direction.

This line of thinking leads to the following horcrux possibilities:

1: Diary, destroyed by Harry who instinctively knew to stab it with the basilisk fang. Harry having a piece of Voldemort's mind (including vague traces of memory) in his head solves a lot of questions about how Harry knew how to do this.

2: Ring, destroyed by Dumbledore.

3: Locket, stolen by R.A.B. and presumably either destroyed by him, or possibly is/was the locket mentioned at 12 Grimmauld Place.

4: Hufflepuff's cup, whereabouts unknown, but see below.

5: Something of Ravenclaw's or Griffindor's, suggesting that Voldemort's visit to Hogwarts to apply to Dumbledore for a job was covertly a trip to either create or hide a horcrux in Hogwarts, using a posession of one of the founders as the receptacle; if it was to create one in the castle, the obvious suggestions are the Mirror of Erised (more likely, see TWM #21) or the Sorting Hat (harder to pull off, as it is in the direct posession of Dumbledore). Dumbledore seems convinced that the Sword is not a horcrux.

There are other possibilities, such as the introduction of an object we haven't seen yet, and the likely hiding place (if it is not the Mirror) would be in the Chamber of Secrets (my guess) or the Room of Requirement. There is also the possibility that the reason for Voldemort's visit was to hide Hufflepuff's cup in the castle.

6a: Harry. The creation of Harry as an accidental horcrux while attempting to use his death to make a planned one, unintentionally using Lily's death as the creation of the necessary tear in Voldemort's soul. This is where things get complicated.

If V was in fact planning to use Harry's murder as the creation of the sixth horcrux, then it is probable that he had the object ready at the time of the attempt. That object is likely to have been either the Hufflepuff cup, or a Ravenclaw/Griffindor object.

That the attempt did not succeed- Harry was not killed- probably indicates that that object is not now a horcrux. Dumbledore believes that Harry's murder was to have been the sixth and final horcrux. Question- which object is a dud? If not the cup, then there are probably two objects, one of Ravenclaw's and one of Griffindor's, and not just one from either; if, for example, the Mirror of Erised is Ravenclaw's and is a horcrux, then we are still looking for a Griffindor object that is the dud.

6b: Nagini. Or, has Voldemort actually given up on Harry being the source of the sixth horcrux? Isn't it possible, maybe probable, that Voldemort's anger at being "thwarted" by Harry led him to insist that the final horcrux come at Harry's successful murder? That seems in line with V's personality, and if so, V has only (deliberately) created five.

So Dumbledore, who by a reasonable parse of JKR's words, is likely to be off on one of the horcruxes, and by DD's own admission the least likely is Nagini. Therefore Voldemort would only know about five horcruxes he has created, and is still planning to make the sixth with a "final" murder of his nemesis, but there would actually be, as DD surmises and JKR hints, six already existing, with Harry being (unknown to Voldemort) #6. With this summation, we stay true to DD's words, to JKR's statement, to Harry's unique insights into Voldemort, and to V's own personality and raving desire for revenge on Harry.

Based on the above, let's re-chart:

1: Diary

2: Ring

3: Locket

4: Cup
a: hidden at Hogwarts
b: hidden elsewhere
c: not a horcrux as V was intending to use it for Harry's murder

5a: Ravenclaw's object
a: Mirror of Erised, at Hogwarts
b: unknown object, hidden at Hogwarts
c: unknown object, hidden elsewhere
d: unknown object which is not a horcrux as V was intending to use it for Harry's murder

5b: Griffindor's object
a: Sorting Hat, at Hogwarts
b: Sword, unsuspected by Dumbledore, also at Hogwarts
c: unknown object hidden at Hogwarts
d: unknown object hidden elsewhere
e: unknown object which is not a horcrux as V was intending to use it for Harry's murder (an interesting symmetry, given Harry's Griffindor associations)

6: Final horcrux
a: Nagini
b: Harry, unintentionally and unknown to Voldemort

[plainlypotter]

ginny s

am I understanding that you think that the piece of the soul that resided in Lv's body died the night the body was destroyed? Where then did the piece of soul come from that was used to resurrect LV current body?

You make it sound like two horcruxes were destroyed, the one in LV's body and the one needed to replenish Lv. I don't think that is what JK was saying.

I think Susanbones111 had the best analogy here - I think the soul is like a tent that is covered by a plastic bubble that is anchored by six stakes . The AK curse broken the case ( the body) but the soul ( tent) remained staked down to earth by the stakes holding down the plastic bubble. I think there is a difference to the soul that resides in LV's body , although damaged by being separated from the other soul pieces , it is the most important piece because it is the ONE anchored to earth by the other pieces. If you can imagine that plactis bubble or sheild staked down, when the stakes holding the sheild are removed the tent then becomes vulnerable to the elements - in this case Harry .

IJohnDl

This is an interesting take and taken in conjunction with something that some said on another thread really makes sense. She or he brought up that DD had a look of triumph in his eye when Harry showed DD where peter had taken the blood to be used for LV resurection hypothesizing that by taking the blood forciably and for the purpose of bring LV back to life LV inadvertently removed the accidental horcruix from Harry's body. This would fit as the piercing of Harry's skin would be like the crack in the ring and the piercing of the diary, it would leave a mark.

[Sheelba]

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

In addition, the diary fragment of his soul in CoS could function independently, and if we are to believe his rantings in the chamber, the death of Ginny Weasley would have restored Voldemort to a body as well as to power. Therefore, it must follow that the soul fragment in the horcrux is not simply an anchor, but a fully independent part of Voldemort, that has the capability of being restored to full life.

That adds another dimension to the Horcrux mystery. Tom Riddle claimed that he would be fully materialized at the moment Ginny died, because Ginny supposedly poured her soul into the diary by writing her inner thoughts. The diary had, in a way, an "interactive user interface" giving Tom Riddle a two-way communication with the diary's reader/writer. I wonder if it was the diary itself that played back the pensieve-like imagery for Harry and possessed Ginny, or if it was the Horcrux within.

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

Can a soul leave the horcrux unaided?
I don't think so, and again, we have to go back to the CoS. The diary Tom Riddle could only function through possession, and required Ginny's death to return presumably to a body. A live person is required.

The strange thing is that while LV/TR had a soul and needed a body, what Ginny seemed to provide was another (her) soul. How could that help materialize Tom Riddle's body?

An Avada Kedavra is supposed to kill a person, leaving the dead body behind while the soul leaves for better pastures. Voldemort's soul stays around thanks to the Horcrux anchors. His body should still be there, and yet he has to hover around for some years in search of a new body?

Why does none of the spare bodies enter LV equation for getting a new one? Instead a soul or a strange mixture of blood, a hand and an old skeleton in a grave does the trick. No wonder wizards can't handle logic when their spells and rituals works in such mysterious ways.

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

Is there a cosmic connection between the soul fragments allowing them to possess the memory of the "active fragment"?

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

Why Voldemort has never known death.
If each soul fragment is lost/died, it leaves the others remaining, each of which that is left has not known death. So, technically, the idea that the current incarnation has never died is not incompatible with this theory.

I guess at most one of these theories can be true. If there is a connection, a shared memory space, between the fragments, then they all must have experienced death if it happened to one of them. And LV must know that he is loosing Horcruxes. I'd like to believe LV is in the dark (!) about that.

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

What if Nagini, is not simply a gifted snake, but a very young basilisk? It would fit - since they have a tremendously long life span, and would fit with the Slytherin heritage.

Except that the stare of the basilisk would kill. That's not Nagini's way of killing, is it?

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

It seems like when you need to hide something, that the RoR does not give you a private storage facility. Rather, a generic room with the stuff hidden of ages appears.

Yes, looks like everyone looking for a place to hide things get the same room. And everyone looking for a place to train DADA in secret get the same room. Lucky for Harry and the rest of Dumbledore's Army...

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

Couldn't Voldemort have gone by the room thinking, I need a hiding place, and it appeared? I think the idea will cross Harry (or Hermione's mind) that there may be something hidden in the RoR? Or, he might retrieve his book and stumble past it, now that he knows what he is looking for and its significance.

A bit unlikely that VL got the chance to enter the RoR after he started making Hurcruxes. Sounds like an interesting place to search, though.

[plainlypotter]

sheelba -

why would you think it unlikely that the LV got a chance to enter the RoR after he started making horcruxes? He made the first one when he was seventteen or less (the ring made with the death of his father, and grandparents), and he came back to hogwarts to ask DD for a job, and before that he had come back to as Dippett for a job, the RoR is just on the other side of the floor , I think that is what Harry said when he met Tonks while he was tryng to get into the RoR. It would also make sense if LV knowing that DD wouldn't let him teach at Hogwarts either got a death eater (snape) to work there, so that the horcrux could be removed at LV's request, or he put it in the RoR when he asked Dippett for a job and thought maybe it wasn't such a good hiding place, and retrieved it when he came to see DD for the DADA job

[blacklvr16]

I was extremely impressed by this theory. I completely agree with you about part of Voldemort's soul dying in his body when the spell rebounded on him. I think the Longbottem thing is kind of far-fetched but very well thought out. I also agree that Kreacher has more of a part to play in the next book, however I do not think that he has the locket in his possession though i do think he does hold the key to finding out who does. One thing that does bother me is the idea that R.A.B is Regulus Black. The thing is, why would he want Voldemort dead? He was the favorite of the children and it was a pratice in the Black house to agree with Voldemort and since his mother did not shun him it is to be assumed that he also agreed with Voldemort. But anyway, good job.

[lily313]

Interesting editorial.

Besides DD stating that Voldemort still had his soul, the question to ask is why would Bella, et al go around torturing people into insanity to find voldemort if they had resurrected him already. He would have told them what to do to regain a body. The Longbottoms were tortured because the death eaters believed they knew of Voldemorts whereabouts. They were desperate to find their leader. It wouldn't make sense for the DE to do this if they had already hooked him up with one of the horcruxes and frankly I don't think Voldemort has shared his little secret with any of them because he wants to be the one with ultimate power - immortality. If he gave this little secret away to every DE they could become just as powerful as he and that would be way too big a threat. I think some may know parts, but not the whole. Remember R.A.B. said he discovered his secret, discovered not told. He or she may have accidentally seen this spell being put into action - you know wrong place, right time.

Also, I don't understand why everyone is so sure this was Lily's book and not Snapes. He says it is, he recognizes the spell, Lily hated the dark arts and the handwriting was all the same. The book was also dated back to Snapes, mothers time. For Lily to have gotten it would mean Snapes mother would have sold it back to the book shop or left it in the classroom and this seems unlikely. Snapes book being in the classroom makes sense as he was the Potions Master. I think it's a bit of a stretch and we should be believing what the characters are telling us. Harry may yet discover Lily's book(s) when he goes back to Godrics Hollow.

i dont agree with your editorial, exept snape nicking lily's book (he is a slytherin) but i dont think there is a fragment of soul at hogwarts because i think the last peice is in voldermorts wand, i mean its always with him to protect, a wizards wand is special to him, his wand is talked about a bit in the books and if fawlkes was once owned by gryffindor then technically dumbledore was right. well done on your editorial though its a good idea but theres only one person that knows and we'll have to wait.

[plainlypotter]

I was thinking about LV's wand do you think that LV kidnaped Olivander in order to have him make a new wand for LV - one that might work against Harry since the original one can't ?

[Keazlegirl]

Originally Posted by plainlypotter

BJ
I think we are shown the ring at this point for two reasons , 1 - to show a destroyed horcrux, and 2- to show horace slughorn that one of the horcruxes was discovered and distroyed, If you check the slughorn memory Tom was wearing the ring (undamaged) during the memory

I thought this was to show that Tom Riddle had already committed murder at least once before he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. Didn't he kill someone to get the ring?

[thewidowblack]

Originally Posted by plainlypotter

I was thinking about LV's wand do you think that LV kidnaped Olivander in order to have him make a new wand for LV - one that might work against Harry since the original one can't ?

That is truly frightening.

Originally Posted by Ginny_S

Death Eaters and the Horcruxes
If a live person is required to mediate release of the soul from the horcrux, then minimally ONE follower of Voldemort must have been privy to the secret. This person would be entrusted with the knowledge of where they were hidden, how to retrieve them (lot of good it would do to have the one person with knowledge killed while retrieving it), and how to bring him back. The only person who claims to be closest to Voldemort is Bellatrix. He even (affectionately?) calls her Bella, so who knows? Bellatrix is shocked that Snape knew of Voldemort's plans for Draco - she must believe that she is privy to all knowledge - because she was entrusted with the horcrux knowledge? It then follows that upon Voldemort's death October 31st, that she then initiated a search for the horcrux to resurrect her master, only to discover that RAB has stolen at least one part. Perhaps Bella knew only of the one horcrux, or perhaps she knew the location of all, but she went off in search of it, with the trail leading right to the Longbottoms, leading to their torture for information in my opinion. Again, Neville was not a target of Bellatrix's attack that night, and torture is only to gain information. Her imprisonment stopped Voldemort from being resurrected sooner.

I do not believe Voldemort would trust Bellatrix with such important information as she is quite mad and I believe her madness predates Azkaban. She is an excellent Death Eater because she enjoys killing and torturing, but trusting her with something so critical doesn't add up. She thinks she is his number one, but then he probably makes all his Death Eaters feel that way at somepoint or another. It's all part of using them to serve him. I agree with whoever said why would he tell the Death Eaters about the horcruxes when they can in turn make their own?