Final encounter - parallels to Eddings' Belgariad saga and other fantasy sagas?

[MagicianGirl]

Originally Posted by Madron

Interestingly, Garion, Silk and Belgarath are a trio, too. But in the final encounter there are more people present so that maybe the Order will join the battle?!

I've been thinking about the parallels in the Harry Potter character and the instruments of the Prophecy in the Belgariad.

Obviously,

Garion=Harry. Interestingly, Beltira and Belkira called Garion "The Chosen One" in The Magician's Gambit when the twins met the group. Harry is called "The Chosen One" as well in HBP

Ce'Nedra=Ginny. I think I posted my theory here some pages back about Ce'Nedra leading the Army of the West while Ginny will probably lead Dumbledore's Army

Durnik=perhaps Snape. Durnik was The Man With Two Lives whereas Snape was living a "double" life in the series.

Barak= Lupin probably. Since Barak was the Dreadful Bear and changes whenever Garion was in danger, Lupin by virtue of changing into a werewolf can fit the the bill.

Polgara=Hemione. Not because of their "power" but their mothering nature and sometimes a "nag". They are also uptight and no fun

Silk=Ron. They're both funny. Plus, I think that Silk is Garion's bestfriend in the series so even if Ron doesn't have Silk's ah, "guidance" he was there with Harry ready to lend a hand.

I don't know where to fit Mandorallen, Hettar and Llerdollin through Neville, Luna, Tonks, etc. though

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by rhhgrt

What interests me is te way Belgarath got revenge on the traitor at the final battle. Perhaps there will be some Lupin vs. Pettigrew/Snape-ness.

That's definitely interesting!
Zedar was Torak's right hand and had been a disciple of Aldur before. Snape had been a Death Eater before he became Dumbledore's man. Snape adds one betrayal and kills the wise wizard. He chooses the Death Eaters and Voldemort over Dumbledore. (Yes, I still support the Snape-is-bad theory. I am awaiting your protests, Hermione Snape! ) So I think that severe punishment is definitely in order!

Originally Posted by Hermione Snape

She loves Silk by the way!

Who doesn't? I really love this character because he is so complex and multidimensional. Deep down inside Silk is a good guy whose heart is broken every time he comes across his mother. Yes, Hermione Snape, the same could be said about Snape....except for Snape being a good guy and lovable.

MagicianGirl, back to this thread!

I can definitely see Ginny/Ce'Nedra parallels but I do not think that Durnik and Snape have much in common. Durnik is such a good, simple and down-to-earth man! Snape is....well, Snape. Even those who love him would never say that he is nice, generous and kind-hearted.

[MagicianGirl]

Originally Posted by Madron

I can definitely see Ginny/Ce'Nedra parallels but I do not think that Durnik and Snape have much in common. Durnik is such a good, simple and down-to-earth man! Snape is....well, Snape. Even those who love him would never say that he is nice, generous and kind-hearted.

I've been thinking about their "double" life more than their personalities. After all, before he played his part he was this sensible, practical Sendar but then he's got to live another life when Garion brought him back to life.

Snape was the same thing. He used to be a Death Eater but then he switched side and became a spy for the Order so he and Durnik can be perceived as The Men With Two Lives.

[rhhgrt]

I can definitely agree with the Ginny/Ce'Nedra parallels. They have similar character traits and physical appearanes. The only difference is that Ginny isn't a poisonous brat (don't take this the wrong way, I love Ce'Nedra).

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by MagicianGirl

I've been thinking about their "double" life more than their personalities. After all, before he played his part he was this sensible, practical Sendar but then he's got to live another life when Garion brought him back to life.

Snape was the same thing. He used to be a Death Eater but then he switched side and became a spy for the Order so he and Durnik can be perceived as The Men With Two Lives.

I still cannot agree. If you focus on this aspect I would rather compare Durnik and Voldemort since both of them have died and returned to life. Wormtail had two lives and Sirius as well: one in freedom and one in captivity. Snape has switched sides several times and would therefore be the man with many lives. Durnik, on the other hand, never turned his cloak and was always stubbornly loyal. I would not compare betrayal with heroic death.

[MagicianGirl]

Originally Posted by Madron

I still cannot agree. If you focus on this aspect I would rather compare Durnik and Voldemort since both of them have died and returned to life. Wormtail had two lives and Sirius as well: one in freedom and one in captivity. Snape has switched sides several times and would therefore be the man with many lives. Durnik, on the other hand, never turned his cloak and was always stubbornly loyal. I would not compare betrayal with heroic death.

I never thought about Voldemort and Durnik parallells when it comes to dying and being reborn, good call. Now that I think about it Zedar and Snape has more parallel than Durnik=Snape. Snape was with Voldemort, then he switched side, then he killed the Dumbledore for who knows what reason. Zedar, in some way, by virtue of killing Durnik had fulfilled one of the fatal steps that led to Polgara not bowing to Torak's will and therefore paving the way for the between Torak and Garion. Zedar may not switched side back to the light but his last action was very instrumental.

[Hermione Snape]

Originally Posted by Madron

That's definitely interesting!
Zedar was Torak's right hand and had been a disciple of Aldur before. Snape had been a Death Eater before he became Dumbledore's man. Snape adds one betrayal and kills the wise wizard. He chooses the Death Eaters and Voldemort over Dumbledore. (Yes, I still support the Snape-is-bad theory. I am awaiting your protests, Hermione Snape! ) So I think that severe punishment is definitely in order!

I am not saying (and have never said) Snape is an angel. I understand that he has some bad characteristics, but what I do say about Snape is that he is not ENTIRELY evil either, I believe the naming of the character is important in his personality much the same way Silk is aptly named. Severus could be broken down to Sever Us, To Sever, rip apart, or perhaps being Torn Apart! I believe that Snape is Torn, I think that he doesn't know himself which side he wants to be on, he's logical, and I think he's the sort to have a pro and con list to both sides. I still think, and hope, that he would do the Right thing in the end, I also don't think Harry will kill him.

Who doesn't? I really love this character because he is so complex and multidimensional. Deep down inside Silk is a good guy whose heart is broken every time he comes across his mother. Yes, Hermione Snape, the same could be said about Snape....except for Snape being a good guy and lovable.

[b]

Again I have never said that Snape is Lovable, just that I happen to love him (as does my mother, she and I both go crazy over men with dark hair, glittering eyes, quiet whispering voices, clever men and who wear long black flowing robes!)

I can definitely see Ginny/Ce'Nedra parallels but I do not think that Durnik and Snape have much in common. Durnik is such a good, simple and down-to-earth man! Snape is....well, Snape. Even those who love him would never say that he is nice, generous and kind-hearted.

I think that Ginny and Ce'Nedra have only one thing in common, they are both Red Heads. As for Durnik and Snape? What planet are you from! I think that Silk and Snape have more in common than those two!

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by Hermione Snape

I am not saying (and have never said) Snape is an angel.

I did not want to imply that you romanticize Snape to the point of delusion. I just thought that you would disagree with my post about Snape being on Voldemort's side. Don't get me wrong, I really love our arguments!

Again I have never said that Snape is Lovable, just that I happen to love him (as does my mother, she and I both go crazy over men with dark hair, glittering eyes, quiet whispering voices, clever men and who wear long black flowing robes!)

Well, if you happen to love him you must consider him lovable! I even try to understand why some people are attracted to him. Again, I know that my view on him is controversial and that is why I anticipated your comment.

As for Durnik and Snape? What planet are you from! I think that Silk and Snape have more in common than those two!

That wasn't my idea. I was just commenting a former post.

Originally Posted by MagicianGirl

Zedar, in some way, by virtue of killing Durnik had fulfilled one of the fatal steps that led to Polgara not bowing to Torak's will and therefore paving the way for the between Torak and Garion. Zedar may not switched side back to the light but his last action was very instrumental.

His action was instrumental because he was an instrument of the prophecy! He had to betray Aldur. He had to become Torak's disciple. Zedar did not have much of a choice. That's where HP is different because it is all about choices! Wormtail chose Voldemort's power and betrayed his friends. Snape also had many choices. As I said, he chose to kill Dumbledore. After finishing both sagas, the Belgariad and the Malloreon, I felt kind of sorry for Zedar because it was his fate to be buried alive as much as it was Garion's fate to save the world.

It is to be discussed how much of a choice Harry has right now. He could turn his back on Voldemort but of course, he wouldn't. It would be wrong in many ways not to face his nemesis so I doubt that he has really a choice. He was predestined to fight Voldemort the day his parents died for him.

It is also interesting which prophecy exploited Zedar. Maybe both had their hands in it.

[WeasleDiva]

I am re-reading the Pawn of Prophecy and I am noticing that Eddings constantly talks about Silk as weasel-faced and with a long nose. Come to think of it, Silk's brother ended up a King.

Ron does pull in a little Silk after all! I thought we were done with him comparing him to Durnik, Mandorallen, and Lelldorin.

Now that the Trio is going on quest, do you suppose they will just leave Molly Weasley a note? Comparing Molly and Ginny's reaction to a note seems quite satisfying and funny when you think about Polgara and Ce'Nedra's reaction!

LEFT YOUR BEDS EMPTY AND YOU LEFT JUST A NOTE! YOU COULD BE SEEN! YOU COULD BE KILLED! etc. etc.

[rhhgrt]

Now that the Trio is going on quest, do you suppose they will just leave Molly Weasley a note? Comparing Molly and Ginny's reaction to a note seems quite satisfying and funny when you think about Polgara and Ce'Nedra's reaction!

LEFT YOUR BEDS EMPTY AND YOU LEFT JUST A NOTE! YOU COULD BE SEEN! YOU COULD BE KILLED! etc. etc.

Oh my god, I am laughing sooo hard right now.
How did this turn into a Snape debate thread? (He's only working for himself and only does what's best for himself, he will, however, go back to the good side before he dies for the cause.)

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by rhhgrt

Oh my god, I am laughing sooo hard right now.
How did this turn into a Snape debate thread? (He's only working for himself and only does what's best for himself, he will, however, go back to the good side before he dies for the cause.)

It isn't really a debate about Snape's motivation. It is more about the Snape/Silk comparison and why I disagree and Hermione Snape agrees. Besides, Snape and Silk are very interesting characters since their past is only gradually revealed. But I thought the discussion moved on to prophecies and Zedar...

WeasleDiva, !
But I do not think they'll leave a note. It's possible that they start their quest only after the wedding though. It may rile Molly.

[MagicianGirl]

Originally Posted by Madron

His action was instrumental because he was an instrument of the prophecy! He had to betray Aldur. He had to become Torak's disciple. Zedar did not have much of a choice. That's where HP is different because it is all about choices! Wormtail chose Voldemort's power and betrayed his friends. Snape also had many choices.

That isn't true. The Belgariad and The Malloreon esp. the latter is as much about choice as well. The prophecies guide them and nudge the players certainly but more or less it's up to the players to make the final move. Remember in Queen of Sorcery when Garion unravelled Nachak's plan to assassinate King Korodullin? He perceived that it was like a chess because both players (the prophecies) made their crucial move again and it was up to him to decide and make a choice on what the final move will be. In the Malloreon wasn't the whole thing hinges on the Choice of Cyradis and the Child of Light and Dark?

As I said, he chose to kill Dumbledore. After finishing both sagas, the Belgariad and the Malloreon, I felt kind of sorry for Zedar because it was his fate to be buried alive as much as it was Garion's fate to save the world.

I'm not much of a Snape fan, but did he really have a choice? I mean, he made the Unbreakable Vow and he was probably bonded with deep magic that made him killed Dumbledore the way Zedar was compelled to betray Aldur?

It is to be discussed how much of a choice Harry has right now. He could turn his back on Voldemort but of course, he wouldn't. It would be wrong in many ways not to face his nemesis so I doubt that he has really a choice. He was predestined to fight Voldemort the day his parents died for him.

I am re-reading both The Belgariad and The Malloreon again and I was struck by how much Harry and Garion are so much alike. I agree that he could turn his back on fighting Voldemort, but like Garion, he has this charateristic and trait that made him separate from the others and always be the one to do the job where no normal "person" will do.

[WeasleDiva]

Dear Mum,

Hermione and I just left with Harry to mop up Voldy and the DE's. We are also going to disarm a few horcruxes (four or five, the Mugglenet forums aren't sure.)

I sure hope we don't get our souls sucked out, or get crucio'd, or get Avada Kedavrad or however you spell that.

Love,

Ronniekins

P.S. A bunch of muggles are wondering if you are going to go mental like Polgara after you get this note.

P.S.S. Erm...who the bloody hell is Polgara?

[rhhgrt]

Laughing so hard right now.

Yeah, Harry and Garion both have the raised by repressive aunt with facts about themselves and icky prophecies about themselves and the innocent have-you-all-gone-mad thing going. At least they did....

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by MagicianGirl

That isn't true. The Belgariad and The Malloreon esp. the latter is as much about choice as well. The prophecies guide them and nudge the players certainly but more or less it's up to the players to make the final move. Remember in Queen of Sorcery when Garion unravelled Nachak's plan to assassinate King Korodullin? He perceived that it was like a chess because both players (the prophecies) made their crucial move again and it was up to him to decide and make a choice on what the final move will be. In the Malloreon wasn't the whole thing hinges on the Choice of Cyradis and the Child of Light and Dark?

Cyradis was never an instrument of one of the prophecies but the referee. Before the game began both prophecies agreed to let her decide. Thus her role was different from Garion's or Torak's. All the characters thought that they were able to choose but did they ever make the wrong choice? They were raised and bred to be perfect for their role. Garion's ancestors married predestined women and so did Garion himself. Everything was planned. Cyradis had a choice? Yes, to a certain extent although she could not have chosen not to choose.

I'm not much of a Snape fan, but did he really have a choice? I mean, he made the Unbreakable Vow and he was probably bonded with deep magic that made him killed Dumbledore the way Zedar was compelled to betray Aldur?

Who suggested to make an Unbreakable Vow? Who decided to become a Death Eater? Who decided not to forgive James and Sirius but rather carry a lifelong grudge? Snape had a lot of choices. Life is about choices.

I am re-reading both The Belgariad and The Malloreon again and I was struck by how much Harry and Garion are so much alike. I agree that he could turn his back on fighting Voldemort, but like Garion, he has this charateristic and trait that made him separate from the others and always be the one to do the job where no normal "person" will do.

You're right. They are very much alike.

WeasleDiva, I really want to see him write that letter!

[Hermione Snape]

Originally Posted by WeasleDiva

Dear Mum,

Hermione and I just left with Harry to mop up Voldy and the DE's. We are also going to disarm a few horcruxes (four or five, the Mugglenet forums aren't sure.)

I sure hope we don't get our souls sucked out, or get crucio'd, or get Avada Kedavrad or however you spell that.

Love,

Ronniekins

P.S. A bunch of muggles are wondering if you are going to go mental like Polgara after you get this note.

P.S.S. Erm...who the bloody hell is Polgara?

Very funny that was brilliant, especially the last sentence.

Who suggested to make an Unbreakable Vow? Who decided to become a Death Eater? Who decided not to forgive James and Sirius but rather carry a lifelong grudge? Snape had a lot of choices. Life is about choices.

There's the thing about choice though Madron is that you can regret them, and yes he did suggest the Unbreakable Vow, (he might have regretted it straight away though remember that was the FIRST scene of Snape OUTSIDE Harry's pov. We might even get a few more in the next one, here's hoping!) He did decide to become a Death Eater, but, as a young man FULL of bitterness for the way Life had treated him, (bad dad, defenceless mother, poor, was neglected as a child, AND to top it all off, he wasn't treated much better at school, being ALMOST murdered by Sirius when he was sixteen, come on be reasonable, would you be willing to forgive someone so willing to murder YOU? I probably wouldn't not in that malicious premeditated personal way!) Oh and Harry also decided not to forgive Snape despite knowing this, no wonder Snape feels better off being on the dark side more people that side have shown him more respect than on the good side.

Remember Madron that it is also people that help make us who we are as well and life is also about that. Snape feels that if no one supposedly good is going to support him and respect him then he will go to the side that will show him that respect. Dumbledore I grant you did show him that respect but I wonder how much of it was true, yes Dumbledore trusted Snape, but did Dumbledore LIKE Snape, (whole new take isn't it, we know he liked Hagrid so much so he trusted Hagrid with his life, he never said that he trusted Snape with his life, just that he trusts Snape!)

But....

I feel that Snape will still Guide Harry to the end and perhaps even help him in destroying the Dark Lord, Sirius' Map covers only the KNOWN aspects of Hogwarts so he could hardly be called a Guide, Snape's map is the world OUTSIDE Hogwarts. He alone would know where the Dark Lord is hidden, and remember you have to be on a side to betray them in the first place, we only have Dumbledore's word that Snape was on the Orders side, not Snape's word, in my view Snape and Zedar are nothing alike, as Zedar was actually on Aldurs side and a disciple therefore his betrayal was more hurtful so much so one of the Sorcerors Belmakor I think unmade himself! In fact thinking about it Wormtail is more of a Zedar than Snape. I don't see anyone in the order committing suicide because Snape did what he did. Snape might never have actually been an Order member, only an acting order member.

Snape HAS a lot of choices, he ain't dead yet you know and there is still plenty of time for him to go back and change a few things!

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by Hermione Snape

Snape HAS a lot of choices, he ain't dead yet you know and there is still plenty of time for him to go back and change a few things!

Yes, he is still alive. The point is, he decided to kill Dumbledore and after he had gone through that door it closed forever. He cannot return to the life he had before the murder. Some decisions are final. He could regret it as much as he wants, the deed cannot be undone.

He alone would know where the Dark Lord is hidden, and remember you have to be on a side to betray them in the first place, we only have Dumbledore's word that Snape was on the Orders side, not Snape's word, in my view Snape and Zedar are nothing alike, as Zedar was actually on Aldurs side and a disciple therefore his betrayal was more hurtful so much so one of the Sorcerors Belmakor I think unmade himself! In fact thinking about it Wormtail is more of a Zedar than Snape. I don't see anyone in the order committing suicide because Snape did what he did. Snape might never have actually been an Order member, only an acting order member.

Well, Snape has been a spy for several years and if he was any good he should know some secrets about both sides. You do not see anyone in the Order committing suicide on account of Snape's betrayal because the Order members aren't as close to each other as Aldur's disciples. They call each other "brothers" and Polgara "sister". They are an immortal family. Despite the fact that the members of the Order are not like a big and happy family there can be betrayal. Snape made the other members believe he was one of them and thus he deceived them. You cannot act like a good guy and kill their leader without betraying them even if you were never entirely and wholeheartedly one of them. Zedar turned his back on his master and his brothers because of a magical stone. Belmakor understood the impact of this betrayal and was ashamed of and for his brother. He felt guilty not to have foreseen and prevented this.

Snape feels that if no one supposedly good is going to support him and respect him then he will go to the side that will show him that respect. Dumbledore I grant you did show him that respect but I wonder how much of it was true, yes Dumbledore trusted Snape, but did Dumbledore LIKE Snape, (whole new take isn't it, we know he liked Hagrid so much so he trusted Hagrid with his life, he never said that he trusted Snape with his life, just that he trusts Snape!)

He supports the people who will never completely accept him because he is a half-blood. He supports the racists of the wizarding world. He supports a mass-murderer. He cannot be excused due to his life not being a piece of cake. Remember the words soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy? Dumbledore never said that he trusted Snape with his life. Well, now he is dead by the hand of the self-same man. I would say he was right. Aldur seemed to have known that Zedar would become a turncloak but did not try to stop him because that was what Zedar was born to do.

So I think the decisive difference between Snape's and Zedar's situation is that Dumbledore wasn't as omniscient as Aldur and actually trusted Snape while Aldur expected a betrayal.

There is a lot more predestination and fate in the Belgariath than in HP.

[Anna233]

Hi. I was surfacing the net and I saw this forum....

I think that Dumbledore never actuallt trusted Snape, despite all that he protested he did. It seemed more that he hoped he was right about Snape and trusted him completely in the belief that through that trust he could force Snape to become a better man (force = mental pressure of hope). The way that Dumbledore actually regards Snape with real fear when he comes onto the tower top suggests that Dumbledore had considered this outcome - he knew that Snape was capable of killing him and probably would do so.

Anyway, that's my view. - Oh, and I hope Harry KILLS voldemort. I was always really disappointed with the ending of the Belgariad. I know that Garion's pity for Torak was wonderful and the RIGHT THING morally speaking, but I just wanted a plain good-versus-evil the baddie must die. The gods gathering the body at the end was good though. I don't think Harry should kill Voldemort out of a desire for him to die, but at the same time, I don't want Rowling to shy away from the finish. Sorry, to much rambling...(sheepish smile).

On a totally unrelated note to the first part of the post, I think the comparison between the two sagas works better if you ignore the Mallorean. The Belgariad works much better on its own - the Mallorean just ruins all the mystery and philosophy of the first series.

(By the wayI really enjoyed the forum's character comparison's between the two books. Especally Moody/Beldin)

Any one read any Robin Hobb? Steph Swainston?

[Moriath]

First of all to CoS and to this thread!

Originally Posted by Anna233

Hi. I was surfacing the net and I saw this forum....

I think that Dumbledore never actuallt trusted Snape, despite all that he protested he did. It seemed more that he hoped he was right about Snape and trusted him completely in the belief that through that trust he could force Snape to become a better man (force = mental pressure of hope). The way that Dumbledore actually regards Snape with real fear when he comes onto the tower top suggests that Dumbledore had considered this outcome - he knew that Snape was capable of killing him and probably would do so.

Anyway, that's my view. - Oh, and I hope Harry KILLS voldemort. I was always really disappointed with the ending of the Belgariad. I know that Garion's pity for Torak was wonderful and the RIGHT THING morally speaking, but I just wanted a plain good-versus-evil the baddie must die. The gods gathering the body at the end was good though. I don't think Harry should kill Voldemort out of a desire for him to die, but at the same time, I don't want Rowling to shy away from the finish. Sorry, to much rambling...(sheepish smile).

I know what you mean. The Dumbledore/Snape relationship is extremely complex and there is a lot of discussion going on. In the Belgariad everything seems rather easy and simple structure-wise: good side vs. bad side; Belgarion vs. Torak; prophecy vs. prophecy. In HP we have Harry vs. Voldemort but we are not so sure about their followers. I think that Snape is evil but I am not sure about his motives and whether he is playing his own little game or whether he is Voldemort's first henchman. Moreover, JKR has not told her readers yet who actually sent the prophecy. We know the medium but not the source and its intentions.

Anyway, Garion killed Torak so I am not really sure why you found it disappointing.

On a totally unrelated note to the first part of the post, I think the comparison between the two sagas works better if you ignore the Mallorean. The Belgariad works much better on its own - the Mallorean just ruins all the mystery and philosophy of the first series.

You're right. It's possible to include the Malloreon but it works way better without it. Although it is interesting to see how both, Eddings and Rowling play with their readers' expectations. Both like to write cyclic stories. In the Malloreon we have a "new" quest and Eddings mocks his own story by letting his characters discover the fact that everything repeats itself. In HP we have a certain pattern that is connected to Hogwarts rules and customs and which is deliberately and sponateously broken.

(By the wayI really enjoyed the forum's character comparison's between the two books. Especally Moody/Beldin)

Great that you like this thread! I really hope you continue posting here since Eddings fans are very welcome!

[Hermione Snape]

I personally disagree about Dumbledore not really trusting Snape mainly because of what Jo say's about him

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

ES: No, that was a good answer.

MA: It's interesting about Dumbledore being lonely.

JKR: I see him as isolated, and a few people have said to me rightly I think, that he is detached. My sister said to me in a moment of frustration, it was when Hagrid was shut up in his house after Rita Skeeter had published that he was a half-breed, and my sister said to me, “Why didn't Dumbledore go down earlier, why didn't Dumbledore go down earlier?” I said he really had to let Hagrid stew for a while and see if he was going to come out of this on his own because if he had come out on his own he really would have been better. "Well he's too detached, he's too cold, it's like you,” she said!" [Laughter] By which she meant that where she would immediately rush in and I would maybe stand back a little bit and say, “Let's wait and see if he can work this out.” I wouldn't leave him a week. I'd leave him maybe an afternoon. But she would chase him into the hut.

She herself say's that Dumbledore is far too trusting, and observation Snape makes himself in HBP that Dumbledore is too trusting for his own good. I don't believe Dumbledore would fight Snape's corner if he didn't have a good enough conviction.

I also find it interesting that she won't outrightly state whether Snape is good or evil. She is letting us debate that issue.

As for the spying thing...

My mother's cousin was married to a Russian and he was a spy.... for us (the Brits) I don't know too much about his exploits although it would be great to find out. Anyway I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had to do some nasty things to people he actually liked so as not to blow his cover... once though his cover was blown he was sent to a Gulag for going against the state and when he was let out he was starving so ate anything and then died of food poisoning.

It is a dirty, dishonest game to play and I think Dumbledore understood that when he took Snape under his wing. Although saying that I do not believe Snape killed Dumbledore because he was asked to by the Great man himself. But I do believe Snape will be facing his demons and will possibly repent but probably a little too late...

I suggest Madron that you read Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy by John Le Carre who was a real spy himself, although he was a british Spy, spying for the British much like Silk being a Drasnian spying for Drasnia, a singular spy therefore slightly more honest, (uh-oh I think I insulted Silk then by calling him honest!)

Snape was a Double Spy which is a much more dangerous game one in which you have to do nasty things to people you might actually like, and weren't Arthur Weasely and Kingsley Shacklebolt spying in the ministry as well? And didn't Kingsley Shacklebolt tamper with Marietta Edgecombes memory so that Harry couldn't get into trouble, the daughter of a fellow Ministry member and a child? Like I said spying is vicious and only someone of Snapes intellect and cunning is suited to it! Can you imagine Draco doing it? Give me a break!

Also Anna233.