A Message from Beyond the Grave

[navygreen]

Discussion for A Message from Beyond the Grave by Maya.

[hermyfanoo1]

Nice editorial.
You brought up some great points.
I as well love Dumbledore but there really isn't any hard core evidence declaring hes still alive.

[Alana]

thank you!!!!!!
Ppl seem to be convinced that Dumbeldore is still alive when ALL the evidence points to this not being the case! Im trying to keep an open mind on it all but its hard when, contrary to many obsessive dumbeldore-lovers posts, there is virtually NO evidence that dumbeldore is currently transfigured into a goat, while hiding in sirius's cave and searching for 20 extra horcruxes.
Im liking you patronus theory, ive bin wondering what exactly the maybe-pheonix at th funeral ment. Of course u could be completly wronge but i think th idea of Dumbeldores last message is very conforting!
Great editorial ; )

[AndromedaBlck]

THANK YOU!!!!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE'S STATED THE POINTS AND LOGIC OF THIS THEORY NOT WORKING!

I'm curious though, what the writer of this fine editorial thinks of the whole "Snape's innocent" theory.....it sounds like they are leaning in the direction of "guilty"....(which, may i add, i sooooo believe he is).

This editorial made a lot of excellent points, most of which i've been waiting for someone to bring up (the AK curse throwing Dumbledore off the tower & Godrics hollow 'blowing up' for reasons unknown being one of them). But I have to admit the 1st point made......the "Snape would be dead if Dumbledore wasn't" , that one i hadn't thought of....and as soon as i read it, i couldn't help myself from grinning.
Good thinking!

& i don't want to give the impression I want dumbledore to be dead, or I don't care he died. I cried for weeks---it was really pathetic---i would spontaneously start crying when serving a table at work......sad.... SO... I just wanted to make that clear...i love dumbledore....but it never even crossed my mind when i read the book that Dumbledore could still be alive (forget messing with Harry's head....that would mess with mine!).....and the first i heard of the "Albus D.'s still with us" theories...i was a little offended----i don't know why...but i was in "mourning" still, so who knows what my emotions were like....LOL

Anyway! Thanks to whoever wrote this editorial! I loved it.

[OpheliaSage]

Finally a justifiable theory as to the pheonix/cloud/smoke/sky whatever sentence!

I've been searching for one forever, and I have to say this is the BEST I've come across. I'm holding out for this one!

[saramikael]

Very well thought out and written, and I totally agree with you. I think the last part, the theory about the patronus, was very good. I had been wondering what the significants of it could be and I think your explanation could very well be true. Great editorial!

[julsie]

sigh
I wish you were wrong.
But your 212% right
thank you for taking the time to write all this out for those crazy people who say he's alive.

Originally Posted by AndromedaBlck

This editorial made a lot of excellent points, most of which i've been waiting for someone to bring up (the AK curse throwing Dumbledore off the tower & Godrics hollow 'blowing up' for reasons unknown being one of them). But I have to admit the 1st point made......the "Snape would be dead if Dumbledore wasn't" , that one i hadn't thought of....and as soon as i read it, i couldn't help myself from grinning.
Good thinking!

that says it all for me.

[Chrysalis]

Thank you for excellently refuting those crackpot theories that Dumbledore is still alive!

Now we need another one destroying the speculation that Snape in Spinner's End was actually a Polyjuiced Dumbledore...

Wonderful editorial! I wonder if the people who religiously visit dumbledoreisnotdead.com will ever read it. . . hmmm. Anyway, as Maya pointed out, many people have pointed to the fact that Dumbledore being lifted off his feet indicates a fake Avada Kedavra, since we have never seen a murder like that before.

However, that is entirely false.

Anyone else remember Chapter 14, "The Unforgivable Curses," from Goblet of Fire ? The Fake Moody, Barty Crouch Jr., showed the Gryffindors what all three of the Unforgivable Curses looked like. And if you'll remember with me, the Trio sat up front. When the last spider was Avada Kedavra-ed, the arachnid rolled over and over, finally skidding to a stop just in front of Ron, who pushes himself away from the hated animal. As J.K. herself says: "There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound. . . instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back . . . unmistakably dead . . . Ron had thrown himself backward and almost toppled off his seat as the spider skidded towards him." (GoF, p. 216, emphasis added)

So, we DO have a precedent for Avada Kedavra causing a body to move. For some reason, though, this has been entirely overlooked. Hopefully this will help to debunk the crazy people out there.

[jkay]

Great read, amusing and informative!
I loved the ending, thoughts of the protronus. I think it is very feasible that Dumbledore made magical provisions in case of his demise. It would make perfect sense. He knew how bad things were getting. He knew of his faults and mistakes. He wasn't getting any younger. And he was taking on some very dangerous missions. (Getting your hand shrivled is a good idication of that). So why wouldn't he invoke some spells just in case.
Then again he was powerful. All that magic had to go somewhere.
In any case thanks for a great read.

[lunatonks]

very good I never even noticed the phoenix the first time gr8 work and it brings up some excellent points

[Shewoman]

WONDERFUL editorial! I hadn't thought about the funeral-phoenis-as-Patronus idea. You could be right and I hope you are!

[shmexsay]

This editorial was a joy to read! Not only was it funny at some points, it was very insightful and well-supported. I agree that the chances of Dumbledore being alive are pretty much zero, and I'm glad someone has finally decided to go out and write an editorial on WHY he can't still be alive. I love your theory about the smoke-phoenix being Dumbledore's patronus too; I haven't heard that one yet but it seems pretty believable. Good job!

[kaydle50]

What a great editorial. I'm one of those that still clings to Dumbledore being alive, but what a great idea his patronus being a message. Especially since we saw Tonks use her patronus to send a message at the beginning of the book. Thanks for a well-thought editorial.

[Poet]

Bravo!

And for those that think Dumbledore could have unfrozen Harry with a non-verbal spell, take a look at the Book 6 train scene with Tonks. Harry has had experince with being non-verbally unfozen before. The spell had a red light.

[CrimsonWood]

"Zombledore"
Too funny, but entirely too creepy as well.
This is a good editorial. I really enjoyed reading it. I really wish there was a chance Dumbledore is alive. I hate it when people keep dying. Why do all the evil people get to fake their deaths while all the nice people really die? So not fair...well, maybe Slughorn is okay. I dunno. Anyway, I really like the patronus theory. If that is the case, I can't wait to see if we ever know what the message was.

[Emerald63]

Originally Posted by WillLupin

Wonderful editorial! I wonder if the people who religiously visit dumbledoreisnotdead.com will ever read it. . . hmmm.

Wow, I had no idea there were any that... dare I say it... "delusional"? Even if the .com bit is a joke (please, tell me it is), that there are enough people that... hopeful - - to make an associated joke about it is a surprise.

Originally Posted by WillLupin

When the last spider was Avada Kedavra-ed, the arachnid rolled over and over, finally skidding to a stop just in front of Ron, who pushes himself away from the hated animal.

Good catch, WillLupin. Totally forgot about that one. <insert non-existent smilie face casting with rod and reel here> I agree that's evidence for an AK throwing a person off their feet. (Anyone ever noticed that Expelliarmus seems to do that too, but only... sometimes? ) But I've been in a number of discussions about other possible reasons the house at Godric's Hollow was destroyed, all quite plausible. So even if the unprecedented rebound of an AK could have caused that damage, it's only one of several possibilities, I think.

I agree. I began as a Dumbledore-is-not-dead-and-Snape-isn't-evil supporter, but now, I'm just confused. I think I know that Dumbledore is dead and that Snape is just grey, but part of me won't admit to it and would rather fight a losing battle than switching sides without a word. But now I've come to terms with what I actually believe, and that is that Dumbledore is most certainly dead, Harry is alone, and Snape doesn't even know his true loyalty. Everyone is angry and confused and regretting many things. The wizarding world is at war, and as a Slytherin, Snape will defend himself at all costs.

Oh, and the patronus idea was brilliant.

Haha, WillLupin, I'm one of those people who religiously visit dumbledoreisnotdead.com every day. But I don't go there for Dumbledore-alive clues, I go for Snape-good clues. I still believe he is just a bit confused and is actually good.

[tovarbaker]

uh... sometimes i think that we go to great legnths to come up with theories about what has happened or what soemthing meant that we suck the juice out of the story. all that business about *** AK knocking AD off the tower being inconsistent with the curse seemed really out there, and the explination of how it was done to serve the story because it was necessiary for him to be on the ground and for Harry to chase Snape.

it was all just, really out there. not poorly writen, actually written quite well, just kind of uncecessary

[Emerald63]

Originally Posted by jkay

I think it is very feasible that Dumbledore made magical provisions in case of his demise. It would make perfect sense. He knew how bad things were getting. He knew of his faults and mistakes. He wasn't getting any younger. And he was taking on some very dangerous missions. (Getting your hand shrivled is a good idication of that). So why wouldn't he invoke some spells just in case.

Anyone familiar with Dungeons & Dragons (and probably other RPGs) is also familiar with Spell Triggers and Contingency Spells. So it is very possible that DD could have set up a Patronus Communication spell that would go off in the event of his death. I wondered there for a minute why it wouldn't have gone off at the moment of his death but... I think it could have been tied to whatever magic caused the flames and tomb transformation at the funeral. It's probably easier to combine a number of Contingency spells so that one great burst of magical energy could do them all together, rather than having a number of smaller ones trail on over time. I'm reminded of the fact (from HBP? JKR's website?) that the headmasters' portraits sleep for a while after the subject's death before they can communicate with the living. Perhaps the amount of magic needed to send off the flames and the Patronus would also have required a bit of time after death to come together.

Originally Posted by jkay

Then again he was powerful. All that magic had to go somewhere.

This is a very, very cool thought, jkay! I'd never considered what would happen to a wizard's magic when he dies. Does it just fade away like the life force does (even in Muggles)? Or does it have a separate existence and more intangible qualities than the life force? Even if it does go the way of the soul, there could well be observable phenomena associated with that. This is such an interesting line of thought......


And Maya, great job on the editorial! You mentioned you thought your ed was long, but it sure didn't feel that way while reading it. Your points all flowed so smoothly together and your conclusions were so logically simple that the read felt effortless - unlike the very convoluted conspiracy theories. That's usually a big sign an idea is highly plausible; it works without having to do backbends.

And the Patronus theory is great! I'll have to go back and inventory who was at the funeral and who all could know this method of communication, but I already have a cool idea of my own as to who the recipient was if your theory is correct. (You have my vote for it, btw.) Not gonna mention it here 'cause I want to speculate enough to see if there might be an ed of my own lurking in the idea. Thanks again for the cool ed and possible seed for one of my own!