Fanfiction at its Best

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Oceania

I'm all for creative expression.

Oddly though, I mostly agree with Jared and Desraelda. I just think fanfic is... *please don't throw vegetables at me* ...a kind of rip off. Now, I do agree that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", and that it can help hone a writer's skills---but I apply that idea more to very young kids, not older teens and adults. I would think it much more creative to write your own story...but then, that's what I do personally, (I'm an aspiring writer) so maybe I'm biased.

In essence, I don't think fanfic is wrong necessarily; I just don't agree personally with using someone else's characters, settings, plots, etc. To me, it's a copyright/copycat kind of deal.

BUT---J.K. Rowling does state that she has nothing against fanfic, and finds it rather odd and flattering. So in that vein, if you want to go for it, fine. My personal opinion shouldn't matter.

Ok, see, he/she said it better than I could. I am for creative expression. Really. I just think it should be original.

[Hinoema]

Original like Drew Barrymore rewriting Romeo and Juliet for the umpteenth time? Original like Shakespeare drawing inspiration from countless myths? Original like any series writer?

If a fanfic writer takes a known character but develops a storyline or event all of their own, that part is original. My only fic so far is a 'what happened when' about how seven year old FredNGeorge played their first prank. Were the characters original? No. Was the storyline? Yes. Was it easy to write them, and the other characters 'in character'? Not at all.

I know it's not my universe or my characters. The inspiration and plotline, however, came right out of my own head. It gave me practice, and a bit of confidence for when I'm ready to create my own worlds.

[MagicLantern]

It's true that when a writer takes a known story and characters and rewrites it that can be a great work of art. For example, the French playwrights of the 17th Century took well known myths or true stories and wrote their own versions of them. Example: Phedre. There are also 20th century versions of old myths. There is also a difference, of course, because of how old it is, and that these writers are really rewriting the same story, only altering it in places. But they are altering it, not always, but sometimes, to reveal their own reading of it, and that actually makes it more interesting. For example, Jean Anouilh's Antigone is very poetic and really sympathizes with Antigone a lot more it seems to me than Sophocles.

But there is something different about fanfic, although I haven't read enough of it!!! So I could be wrong. Therefore, I'll phrase this statement as a question. Has anyone in fanfic rewritten the first book, say, from beginning to end, but has taken different twists and turns here and there?

That story, by the way, didn't even belong to those ancient authors, or did it? It was already a myth that everyone was familiar with. In a sense it belonged to everyone. But someone must have made it up?

There is also the phenomenon of pastiche, which is a little different from what I am talking about above. This is when you imitate an author slightly poking fun maybe by really bringing out the style of the author in a very obvious way (not the most professional definition...). One can actually publish a pastiche/parody. Does anyone remember the huge racket that was made when Alice Randall wrote The Wind Done Gone, a parody of Gone with the Wind, and the descendents of Margaret Mitchell tried to block its publication? My memory is so horrible, I can't even remember with certainty if the courts allowed it to be published when it was proved it was a pastiche (I think they did. Anyone else who followed the story please enlighten me. In any case, it's for sale in so many places that it seems it's legal.)

Anyway, there are issues of copyright, and it has especially to do with the time that has elapsed since your work was written.

I think I'll take back my comment on the other thread about fanfic being the sugar without the medicine, although I do think a huge structural dimension present in Rowling's work is most likely absent in fanfic, and that's the part that interests me most for editorial purposes. Maybe it depends on the length of the fanfic too.

Thus, great artists have adapted to their own vision and style a story that was not of their own invention. Obviously art is not necessarily or only being able to dream up characters and a plot. Still, for some reason, I can't quite bring myself to get interested in fanfic or write it (but I already spend enough time on HP when I have so much work to do; maybe my resistance also has time reasons). Although I did start something like a fanfic but also different. Who knows? I'm not sure if I see a reason to be very very against it, unless it brings people to the point of not appreciating the original. That is sad. It's really sad, you know, because well, I am sure it is possible to surpass your mentor, but I'm not sure if I would then say that my mentor has failed. Like a writer (or painter?) wrote somewhere (I forgot where I read it): If I can see so far, it is because I am sitting on the shoulders of a giant. But can you imagine telling the giant on whose shoulders you are sitting, and rather haughtily, "I can see farther than you?" Of course, this isn't to say that I think fanfics can see farther than Rowling where her own books are concerned.

[Hinoema]

Great anaology!

And now for something completely different...

...a little treat I found for any taking these threads- or life- too seriously. A short little fanfic about the HP characters- writing a fanfic!

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mal...24.html#cutid1

[UNH_09]

Originally Posted by Hinoema

Great anaology!

And now for something completely different...

...a little treat I found for any taking these threads- or life- too seriously. A short little fanfic about the HP characters- writing a fanfic!

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mal...24.html#cutid1

Hehehee, that was awesome. I love humorous stories. The Filch thing creeped me out a bit, but it was really well written. :-)

Originally Posted by Hinoema

Original like Drew Barrymore rewriting Romeo and Juliet for the umpteenth time? Original like Shakespeare drawing inspiration from countless myths? Original like any series writer?

If a fanfic writer takes a known character but develops a storyline or event all of their own, that part is original. My only fic so far is a 'what happened when' about how seven year old FredNGeorge played their first prank. Were the characters original? No. Was the storyline? Yes. Was it easy to write them, and the other characters 'in character'? Not at all.

I know it's not my universe or my characters. The inspiration and plotline, however, came right out of my own head. It gave me practice, and a bit of confidence for when I'm ready to create my own worlds.

I completely agree that that's original. Most fanfic storylines are original, it's just the characters and places that aren't. And I'm glad you mentioned Shakspeare. He didn't create all those characters by himself. He too took many different stories (and myths, as you said) and made his own. Just like now, every story about two people who fall in love who aren't supposed to fall in love is seen as a remake of Shakspeare's Romeo and Juliet. But the idea of that sort of love has been in stories much longer.

[mlp36]

Originally Posted by Hinoem

Actually, identity theft is a person who takes on the identity of another and represents themselves as such. I have yet to see a fanfic writer who claims to be JK Rowling.

You will notice I never said it was identity theft, rather a FORM of identity theft. Also, I have seen several fanfics where the writer claims to be JKR. I have also seen people who claim to be god, but they had other issues.

Originally Posted by Hinoem

For another, most fanfics which may contain adult situations, or, as you put it "statutory rape, incest, drug abuse, terrorism etc, etc, etc..." are clearly marked as such (on good fic sites) and easy to avoid.

And cigarettes have a surgeon general warning on them, yet people still smoke them, even teenagers who aren't supposed to buy them.

Originally Posted by Hinoem

One thing people tend to avoid in discussions like these is fanfic as a cathartic. Sometimes a victim of abuse or assault will be unable to communicate this and will use fiction to 'act out' the things they cannot share otherwise. Sometimes people use fiction to understand things they may not be able to talk about by roleplaying it, like questions about their own sexuality or that of others.

Yes, all the terrorists are coming to grips with their hate by writing HP fanfiction, that is very logical. I'd bet my first born that more than 90% of explicit fanfiction is not written by people who are victims of abuse or assault. Those that are would recover even better if they wrote about their experiences in terms that better describe them, not in a made up world where such things as rape (or even making love for that matter) have yet to even be mentioned. For all we know wizards could conceive babies by some spell.

Originally Posted by Hinoem

If a person does not want to read these things and the author has thoughfully flagged them, then an agreement can be easily reached. They marked it, you avoid it. However, the idea of policing the web against your list of offending fictions is both unrealistic and disturbing. Who does the policing, and who decides what will and will not be allowed? And if it isn't, what do you do?

I think self policing is a far better alternative. Have age restricted areas for certain themed fics. Encourage constructive betas and reviews. I have, several times, discouraged authors from using rape as a plot device for romance becuase it is both unrealistic and potentially offensive. However, some people who are new to both sexual feelings and writing do not automatically know this. I never discouraged the writer, just offfered a more workable alternative to creating dramatic tension.

I thought my previous comments on the subject were quite obviously sarcastic and showed that there is no way such bad fanfiction could be policed, but sometimes captain obvious doesn't do his job. Self policing does not work at all. Do you think self policing would keep people from speeding? Real police don't even keep people from speeding.

Originally Posted by Hinoem

The bottom line, though, is that if you don't like fanfic, you don't have to be involved with it in any way. However, the only person who has the right to say if it can or cannot be shared for the HP world is Jo.

There are many writers who do not allow anything to be done to their work. Bill Waterson, the writer of Calvin and Hobbes, doesn't even allow his characters to be in greeting cards, toys or calenders. Let me quote from his comments:

Believable characters are hard to develop and easy to destroy. My strip is about private realities, the magic of imagination, and the specialness of certain friendships {that sounds just like the Potterverse}. When I didn't licence my creation, bootleg Calvin and Hobbes merchandise sprung up to feed the demand. Mall stores openly sold T-shirts with drawing illegally lifted from my books, and obscene or drug-related shirts were rife on college campuses. Only thieves and vandals have made money on Calvin and Hobbes merchandise.

JKR has obviously licensed her creation, but demands that the products remain true to the spirit of the books. For instance, she demands that the actors in the movies be from the country their character is from, and must approve the script to make sure they did not leave anything important out. If she cares about her creation that much, we should have the respect to let her tell the story, not make up our own. I know there is some fanfiction that does remain true to the books, but as has been stated by many before, those are the exeption, not the rule.

[Musiclily88]

Not to get caught up in the heat of the argument, but I think ANY sort of writing helps improve one's skills at writing. Grammar, sentence structure, relating an idea to an audience-- all that can be honed by writing. Writing ANYTHING, including fan fiction. I'm not saying that writing fanfic is an automatic road to getting published-- obviously, that's a silly statement-- but I know that getting positive feedback (true criticism and opinions, here) can give a person confidence to continue any of their writing. Just because someone writes fanfic does not mean they do not have personal endeavors in the writing field. On the other hand, writing fanfic could just be a nice hobby, a way to have fun. Learning how to structure a plausible one-shot, with characters already established, can help a struggling writer learn how to structure and complete their own original short stories. It works both ways: writing fic can be a hindrane or a help. Personally, I think any form of creative expression is worthwhile, even if it involves another person's universe.

[Nackledirk]

Originally Posted by Jared

Ok, see, he/she said it better than I could. I am for creative expression. Really. I just think it should be original.

I think I understand what you're saying much better now, and to some extent agree with you (and the other editorial writer). There is only so far fanfic can take you, I'm sure. *cough*mainlyduetocopyrights*cough* And, yes, I absolutely agree that a true author wannabe will have to eventually move away from fanfics. But to the hobby author, it's nice to have characters, precedents, a whole world already waiting for you.

Interestingly, I have heard it said that there are only a certain amount of plots out there, and every story ever written employs one of those plots. Now, the numbers vary anywhere from 1-37 (I have never heard more than 37, has anyone else?), but there is only so far originality can go. Am I saying that this means fanfic is necessarily more or as creative as 'original' work? Certainly not. Nor is it necessarily less creative.

I think you'll find that if you've ever been around young writers or beginning authors, many of their characters are suspiciously like people they know or favorite storybook characters. Why, where do you think the dreaded flood of Mary Sues arose from?

Personally, I think the 20 plot list would look rather familiar to fanfic writers and readers. Or any writers or (hopefully) readers, for that matter.

#1 Quest
#2 Adventure
#3 Pursuit
#4 Rescue
#5 Escape
#6 Revenge
#7 The Riddle
#8 Rivalry
#9 Underdog
#10 Temptation
#11 Metamorphosis
#12 Transformation
#13 Maturation
#14 Love
#15 Forbidden Love
#16 Sacrifice
#17 Discovery
#18 Wretched Excess
#19 Ascension
#20 Descension

Never seen any of those before, have you? ;-)

The bottomline, which person after person seems to be coming back to:

Fanfiction can be very high quality. Fanfiction can be painful, embarrassing crud. Fanfiction can be what its author makes it, just as books can be what an author makes them. Jo Rowling could have taken her idea (which uses most, if not all of those plots up there [*gasp* she stole them ;-)]) and written an absolutely abhorent book with it, or she could put in some serious, hard work and turn it into something fantastic. Bless her heart, she chose the latter. As do some fanfic writers.

Fanfic is certainly not the be-all end-all of writing. I would call it a starting point. But it can have its place, just as cake mixes and karaoke can be the meager beginnings of future greats.

As to the person who said all writing helps, I agree. Even keeping a daily journal, trying to organize your thoughts on paper, jotting down barebones story ideas or basic poetry can help. And fanfiction. Fanfic is good way to help with grammar, spelling, learning to write dialogue, learning to write descriptions, etc. If, and only if the author puts in some work. If the author doesn't, it's a good way to fall into or continue bad habits, such as thinking you'll get through life wrt1n leik tis. But there is nothing inherently bad about fanfiction, particularly when given the original author's approval.

Personally, I would say that the best way to respect JKR is to stay within her outlined boundaries. Namely, the canon characters and stories, and her wishes to keep adult type material out of the hands of kids. Which is rather hard to do, so I would almost say not to write extremely graphic stories. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. ;-)

(If anyone is interested in reading the other plot lists--1, 3, 7, and 36 (or 37)--here is a good basic source.)

[IrishPhoenix711]

Originally Posted by mlp36

And cigarettes have a surgeon general warning on them, yet people still smoke them, even teenagers who aren't supposed to buy them.

The point is that it's there. It's not like people read the warning, decided they're not interested, that it's not worth it, and smoke anyway...

I'd bet my first born that more than 90% of explicit fanfiction is not written by people who are victims of abuse or assault.

And the same goes for original fiction. People have as much chance wandering onto such topics written in bad taste in original work, too.

And, be careful with what you say. Because, if you're defending something you don't know, you might be an unwanted advocate. I know writers who are not victims, but who write it with great care and understanding. And I know authors who are victims, too. One of those authors happens to be me.

And I know from experience, it benefits to write something you've been through. It doesn't matter if it's about Jane Doe or Hermione Granger - the feeling is the same thing.

Those that are would recover even better if they wrote about their experiences in terms that better describe them, not in a made up world where such things as rape (or even making love for that matter) have yet to even be mentioned.

People are people. Harry Potter would have as much emotional trauma being abused as any other child.

My apologies if that sounded a little snippety, but you're treading on thin ice there, because you're getting into areas that have to do with people's emotions and healing processes and abilities to deal with it through writing, and it's about a lot more than fan-fiction. It just happens to be a hot issue with me.

Moving on, the main point of the editorial is the world of fan-fiction people aren't seeing. If you haven't read the material I've been talking about, how can you judge it. I'm not talking about incest as a kink, here.

Glance at a story or two, then come back and have this discussion

And as for the question of creativity. Yes, the characters are already there, so you don't have to be original with that. But, they come with the challenge of writing them the way they're meant to be written, and exploring the levels of who they are. A new challenge altogether that doesn't come with writing your own character.

And the writing style, plots, dialogue, literary devices - all still require creativity. There are plenty of modern authors who aren't very creative. But because they labeled a decent character with a name they thought of themselves, it's completely different and original, right? Whatever.

[mlp36]

Originally Posted by IrishPhoenix711

The point is that it's there. It's not like people read the warning, decided they're not interested, that it's not worth it, and smoke anyway...

my poorly written point in mentioning cigarettes was to say that just because something has a warning doesn't mean it is automatically ok in its existence. If I told a police man I was going to be speeding, he wouldn't just say, ok, thank you for the warning, go ahead. I had originally said several posts ago that JKR could not approve of the way some fanfiction uses her world to support rape, incest, drug abuse, terrorism, etc. This was written off as nothing by someone just because there were warning labels on them, but I don't feel that their actual existence is justified.

Originally Posted by IrishPhoenix711

And the same goes for original fiction. People have as much chance wandering onto such topics written in bad taste in original work, too.

I have no problem with that, the problem is when characters created by someone else are taken out of context and used in such a way. For example, if someone made a movie showing Jesus to be a porn actor or a pro wrestler it would offend a great number of people. I feel the same way about fanfiction that shows the HP characters outside what JKR has made them.

Originally Posted by IrishPhoenix711

And, be careful with what you say. Because, if you're defending something you don't know, you might be an unwanted advocate.

How do you know what I do and don't know? Be careful in your accusations.

Originally Posted by IrishPhoenix711

I know writers who are not victims, but who write it with great care and understanding. And I know authors who are victims, too. One of those authors happens to be me.

And I know from experience, it benefits to write something you've been through. It doesn't matter if it's about Jane Doe or Hermione Granger - the feeling is the same thing.

People are people. Harry Potter would have as much emotional trauma being abused as any other child.

Harry Potter is not a person. He is a fictional character bound by the ink on the pages of the books we love. The psychiatric ward I've done rotations at is full of people who could not distinguish between fiction and reality.

Originally Posted by IrishPhoenix711

My apologies if that sounded a little snippety, but you're treading on thin ice there, because you're getting into areas that have to do with people's emotions and healing processes and abilities to deal with it through writing, and it's about a lot more than fan-fiction. It just happens to be a hot issue with me.

I have no problem with people writing down their emotions. Most psychiatrists will tell you to keep a journal of your thoughts. The problem is not in the writing itself, but in the way some people abuse the Potterverse by bringing into it obscene and degrading things that JKR has yet to introduce at all. The Potterverse is full of emotions and healing processes, so writing about that is not what I am talking about.

[sirpsycho85]

@sayre - i agree with some of what you are saying, i think calling fanfiction identity theft is ridiculous, i understand that the characters are copyrighted, but copyright and patent laws are riddiculous enough not to make a fuss out of fanfiction, something that has been around a lot longer than Harry Potter. they're all just stories, that should be told and read and enjoyed and retold, not confined. however, most of what you said could have been said without horribly misinterpreting what the other person said. saying untrue stuff that has nothing to do with the topic (like the gay-bashing accusation) only hurts your actual argument.

[IrishPhoenix711]

'Obscene and degrading' - which is, in many cases, a point of view, unless you're talking about rape, incest, etc' - has got nothing to do with what I'm supporting.

'Fan-fiction at it's best' is what I'm defending here. Yes, there is a negative aspect to the world of fan-fiction. But, don't people use music, science and religion to spread immoral messages or do terrifying things? Yes, but it's no reason to condemn those practices. Music, science and religion have done wonderful things for billions of people throughout the ages. The light shines through the darkness - it is not swallowed by it.

And no, I don't think fan-fiction is of that magnitude, but it's still unfair to judge the entire idea on the fact that it is used in a negative manner by some people.

Again, the article was about 'fan fiction at it's best'. Are you really going to argue against the good it can do, by focusing on fan fiction at it's worst?

That's exactly what radical Christians feel about Harry Potter. Who cares about the moral messages, the inspiration, the essence of human goodness, the desire to read it has instilled in a TV-Generation - because, oooh, they practice magic and that's bad.

Those people are wrong. Is there a possibility you are, too?

[casselandra]

It depends on your point of view. I once wrote an incestuous story, but it was an exeriment, and it certainly was tastefully done(a lot of morals, no HG in the end anyway). Some of you might have read it(i have a lot of reviews) it's called The Weasley Boys. You can write about rape if you want, as long as you don't encourage it. Even then... write about it if HP blends with core encourages you with your... eh... whatever.
It's wrong, but if you credit her, then there is no infraction.

[siriuslyinlove1]

There is a huge, huge range in the quality of fanfiction. Some of it is thought-provoking and meaningful, some of it is just for laughs, some of it is utter rubbish, and some of it is offensive and obscene. As for the overall issue of whether or not it should be allowed, I stand by JKR on this. She has given fanfiction her blessing, with the exception of the aforementioned offensive stories. I would love to be able to filter fanfiction so that (for lack of a better adjective) sensitive subjects (rape, incest, abuse, violence, etc.) handled innappropriately or graphically were not allowed, but that is not the way the internet works. This is true not only for fanfiction but for the online community in general, and is one of the major issues with the freedom that comes from the internet. However, this is not on topic. As for the rest, the majority, of fanfiction, I see it as a positive thing. I think that writing anything, from poetry to diaries, editorials to plays, fanfiction to original stories, can only benefit the author. Not just with grammar and syntax, but with learning about their weaknesses, their strengths, and what type of story (romance, angst, mystery, etc.) they tend to gravitate towards. I do not deny that writing an original story is possibly, quite probably, more beneficial to the author, but it is also much harder and not something that everyone is inclined or capable of doing. It is, in my opinion, fine to like to write but not want to write your own story.

I do not advocate stories which contain offensive or inappropriate subjects (which is an obviously personal judgement as to what constites offensive or inappropriate), but otherwise I have no problem with fanfiction overall.

[sirpsycho85]

Originally Posted by mlp36

You will notice I never said it was identity theft, rather a FORM of identity theft.

this makes no sense. a form of identity theft fits into the category of...identity theft.

but to summarize my opinion, i don't think the main issue is that fanfiction is stealing from JK Rowling. I think that things that are inappropriate are so whether they use harry and hermione or hansel and gretel. JK's attitude towards fanfiction is a good one. She understands that some people write things that are offensive and wrong, but that's what comes with any type of writing, and she's mature enough to understand that these are not reflections of her actual characters. Bad writing is bad writing in any form, but there's plenty of good fanfiction and there's nothing wrong with that.

[hellzfire]

Well said!

People seriously need to get over themselves. If they don't like fan fiction, then don't read it, but there's no need to go on these stupid tyrades of claiming its plagiarism and all this **. It's called FAN fiction for a reason. Otherwise, it would only be called fiction. Besides, JK has said repeatedly that she encourages fan fiction, so I really don't get how it's plagiarism if she said, "Go ahead."

And of course there are bad writers and good writers. There's a bad and good for everything, not just fan fiction. Stop focusing on the bad and look at the good.

You will notice I never said it was identity theft, rather a FORM of identity theft.

Do you even know what identity theft is? That was the dumbest statement I've ever read.

[Lady Alchymia]

Interviewer: Why do you want to write?

Jo Rowling: Why don't you want to write? I don't understand why everyone doesn't want to write.

From a TV doco on Rowling, 'Harry Potter and Me' (or something like that).

Now, my apologies to Rowling, since I imagine I might have misquoted her slightly, but you get the gist of what she was saying.

I started writing a HP story without even knowing that fan fiction existed (I’m not young, and hardly ever went onto the Internet). I was simply writing a story to give to a 15 year old girl who had recently lost her father. Post OOTP, Harry was in a similar position, of course, and so he proved a great foil for expressing my notions about grief, hope, love, and just plain fun.

Writing that story gave me enormous pleasure, and a great passion for the writing process. The story posts now on the Internet and has a small group of readers which is nice.

Now, call it identity theft, call it homage, call it what you like, but let’s bring a little understanding into the discussion.

People have been creating stories based on other people’s characters since the dawn of time. The problem is not that fan fiction exists. It is that fan fiction can now be shared on a global scale at the click of a button. And this is something that is very new … something that has only really become feasible within the last ten years.

I haven’t really read other fanfics, so I don’t know what the quality is like, but I have become aware (belatedly) of just how many hundreds of thousands of them now exist.

If we assume that there are, say, 500,000 HP stories on the Internet … then further assume that, worst case, 99% of them range from Troll to Dreadful, then that still leaves 5000 that may be of a better quality (either because they are clever, or funny, or thought provoking, or emotionally moving in some way).

5000 people – very young people, perhaps – who have developed an interest and a talent for writing. 5000 people who were inspired to become writers because of the rich fictional universe of Harry Potter.

Whether or not these writers ever go on to some kind or full or part-time writing career does not diminish the fact that at some point in their life they wrote something that was worth reading.

Personally, I'd like to believe that that would make Jo Rowling smile.

[freewomble]

fanfiction is just a idle pursuit which people enjoy that's all yes its used extensively but it's not meant to be serious. just as one can idly dream about what happens to the characters of a favourite TV show once it ends or takes a break (i've thought about Monica, Chandler and the twins) one can sit down and write about hp characters. the freedom to think what we believe is important even if some will abuse this. It's all fiction and therefore is by definition not real so whether people write things very close to canon or miles away from it it's not going to be real. And fanfiction corrupting anyone well the internet (and possibly the world) is a sink of depravity the potterverse encompasses most ideas and won't be immune to human failings.

In the end it's just fiction people!

[Diabolus]

There is some well written fan fiction, I will give you that, however in my own opinion is hurts the experience of the, oh I don't know, ACTUAL SERIES. Reading fan fiction can be fun but it can distort the lines of Rowling's masterpeice, and a teens 15-minute story written out of boredom. The latter sucks.

[lunatonks]

awesome job!