Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[Olwen]

Originally posted by fallingrock
Wow!! I don't want Snape to be the martyr either. Almost everyone seems to be of the opinion that Snape has to die to be redeemed, and that his death will be an act of sacrifice to save Harry. However, I think he has already redeemed himself when he rejoined Dumbledore so many years ago. I can still see Snape sacrificing himself, but I think it would be say more for Snape and Harry to be able to overcome their prejudices of one another and work together to defeat Voldemort. It would be a better lesson about acceptance and appreciation than letting Snape die. Wishful thinking, I'm sure.

It's always disturbed me that Harry and Snape have built a common wall of prejudice and misplaced blame throughout the series that caused them to be apart rather than fighting on the same side. They do have one thing in common: Dumbledore, who trusts them both and whom they both trust. I have this deep down wish that Snape's loyalties will finally be revealed in Book 7 to Harry's satifaction either through a Phoenix patronus or through summoning Fawkes to heal someone mortally injured, maybe himself. I really hope that this build-up of hatred and suspicion is going to lead to a cathartic moment when their eyes are finaly opened to each other. I think Snape and Harry had a small moment like that during the Occlumency lessons and in SWM. I agree, fallingrock, after this poor guy has been abused so much that it would be too sad if he were to die.

[mdeligan]

I think that the Flight of the Prince chapter is one of the hardest to read and the ending of HBP in general is emotionally taxing. There are so many heart-wrenching moments, but there is something about that confrontation between Harry and Severus that really sends chills down my spine and re-reading subtle science's post brought all of those feelings back to me unexpectedly. Part of it is the setting - Dumbledore's death, the darkness and confusion, the flames, the screaming and flying curses - but it is just so painful to watch these two finally face-off, outside of the classroom and with the gloves off. And what is worse is that it isn't a confrontation where everything comes out and truths are told, which is the typical scene at the end of the book. There is no emotional release for either of them through the truth, no opportunity to finally say what each has wanted to say to the other for the longest time. Instead it is just more anger and confusion. The sight of two of Dumbledore's most loyal supporters at each other's throats would be hard even for the Headmaster to witness, especially since he knows them both so well. Yet I get the sense that while this confrontation is not cathartic (like Draco's emotional onslaught at DD), something fundamental has been revealed about one to the other (and to the reader?) but maybe not at the conscious level. At the funeral, Harry still seems to be under the impression that a meeting with Severus is possible, but not critical to his task, as if Severus is once again a sideline annoyance. But I think Severus will get under his skin the way Draco did and he will start to focus on what happened and why at the school. I can't even begin to imagine what Severus was thinking during and after that scene, but to have Harry on the ground, raw with emotion - as Severus was towards the end - and defenseless before your wand, it has to be a moment when the world stops, if just for a second. This isn't Harry-the-student trying to lie his way out of a situation or duck punishment, or whatever. It is Harry the person in his purest form and yet the scene is so pathetic with him trying so hard to throw spells and they are just useless. Absolutely useless. I guess Severus didn't see anything from Harry he hasn't seen before, he knows of both Harry's reckless bravery and weak dueling skills (compared to someone like Severus), but I would like to think that in the aftermath of all this, Severus learns something about Harry that maybe gets him away from the shadow of James. Or maybe not. Perhaps Harry acted like the little fireball that James was. I just would like to think that this scene unsettled some pre-conceptions at a subconscious level for both of them. Rowling said it is now personal between them, but I think it has been personal for a long time. I can't even think of the word that describes what happened between them outside of Hagrid's hut. "Personal" is a bit of an understatement.

Edit: Looks like Olwen and I are on the same page about many things - we even use the word "cathartic" almost simultaneously. =)

On whether Severus will die in book 7, I don't want to even think about it. I personally don't think it is necessary but I'm biased and not an author. I think some want his blood as atonement, but that seems like an overly simplistic solution to a complex character. I think those two need to live to be a constant thorn in each other's sides.

[Potency]

Originally Posted by mdeligan

I think that the Flight of the Prince chapter is one of the hardest to read and the ending of HBP in general is emotionally taxing. There are so many heart-wrenching moments, but there is something about that confrontation between Harry and Severus that really sends chills down my spine and re-reading subtle science's post brought all of those feelings back to me unexpectedly. Part of it is the setting - Dumbledore's death, the darkness and confusion, the flames, the screaming and flying curses - but it is just so painful to watch these two finally face-off, outside of the classroom and with the gloves off. And what is worse is that it isn't a confrontation where everything comes out and truths are told, which is the typical scene at the end of the book. There is no emotional release for either of them through the truth, no opportunity to finally say what each has wanted to say to the other for the longest time. Instead it is just more anger and confusion. The sight of two of Dumbledore's most loyal supporters at each other's throats would be hard even for the Headmaster to witness, especially since he knows them both so well. Yet I get the sense that while this confrontation is not cathartic (like Draco's emotional onslaught at DD), something fundamental has been revealed about one to the other (and to the reader?) but maybe not at the conscious level. At the funeral, Harry still seems to be under the impression that a meeting with Severus is possible, but not critical to his task, as if Severus is once again a sideline annoyance. But I think Severus will get under his skin the way Draco did and he will start to focus on what happened and why at the school. I can't even begin to imagine what Severus was thinking during and after that scene, but to have Harry on the ground, raw with emotion - as Severus was towards the end, and defenseless before your wand - it has to be a moment when the world stops, if just for a second. This isn't Harry-the-student trying to lie his way out of a situation or duck punishment, or whatever. It is Harry the person in his purest form and yet the scene is so pathetic with him trying so hard to throw spells and they are just useless. Absolutely useless. I guess Severus didn't see anything from Harry he hasn't expected before, he knows of both Harry's reckless bravery and weak dueling skills (compared to someone like Severus), but I would like to think that in the aftermath of all this, Severus learns something about Harry that maybe gets him away from the shadow of James. Or maybe not. Perhaps Harry acted like the little fireball that James was. I just would like to think that this scene unsettled some pre-conceptions at a subconscious level for both of them. Rowling said it is now personal between them but I think it has personal for a long time. I can't even think of the word that describes what happened between them outside of Hagrid's hut.

Wow, this post nearly brought tears to my eyes! Brilliant post!! Very heartfelt...you put into words what I had been feeling about the ending of HBP. And of course, now I have go and read the final chapter and play some really sad music. (Am I the only one who does that?)

[mdeligan]

Originally Posted by Potency

Wow, this post nearly brought tears to my eyes! Brilliant post!! Very heartfelt...you put into words what I had been feeling about the ending of HBP. And of course, now I have go and read the final chapter and play some really sad music. (Am I the only one who does that?)

You are not the only one. This scene wasn't even on my mind until I read the subtle's detailed post on non-verbal skills in the darkness. Something about it really set off a wave of emotions and now I'm depressed. It was like I was seeing the whole scene again right before my eyes. I haven't looked at HBP in a while. Unlike the other books, I walk around it like it is plutonium on my bookshelf. In a sense I am dreading the final book.

[Sly_Lady]

It's always disturbed me that Harry and Snape have built a common wall of prejudice and misplaced blame throughout the series that caused them to be apart rather than fighting on the same side.

Prejudice? Goodness, I have Jane Austen on the brain now! "Pride and Prejudice" is all about the importance of learning to look beyond appearances and seeing the real character of a person, and the process of learning to do this effectively is what Dumbledore has been teaching Harry, and indeed, the secret of Dumbledore's success.

Harry is full of prejudices, and through the series he has gradually learned that truths he took for granted are often mistaken. His initial belief that Sirius wants to kill him, his belief in his perfect, idealized father, his repeated beliefs that Snape wants to kill him, all need to be modified in the face of better understanding. But as one misunderstanding is cleared up, it seems that Harry takes on another. I think 16 year old Harry is often that impulsive, "feeling" person that Sirius was, although he has the potential to move beyond that, if he chooses to do so.

At the end of HBP, I think Harry's great challenge will be to learn to see below the surface without Dumbledore's help. Harry will be an adult in the wizarding world soon, and I think that adulthood carries the responsibility to judge wisely before he acts. If he can lose the "pride" and unload his "prejudice" I think Harry can learn to see who Snape really is, and at that point they can work together. I think Snape is pretty obviously impressive, flaws and all, and if Harry can see him clearly he will trust Snape as Dumbledore did, and as Harry trusted Dumbledore.

mdeligan,

Holy cow! I haven't read that chapter for a while, because it's very painful for me to read it. You really evoked my feelings in your post, and helped me understand it better. Awesome!

[Lil_Lily_Evans]

I think Olwen. Snapes character is very complex. On one hand here is this man who was abused and tortered in front of on lookers for years and years later he is put in the position where he is suppost to teach all he knows and protect the son (who looks exactly like his father) of the man who did those horrible things to him when he was a kid, and then there is this man who is full of so much hatred that he kills the one man who trusted him, protected him even though he was the one who gave Voldemort what he need to go on to try an kill Harry. Personally, I think snape did that on purpose and gave him a little push towards Lily and James. I mean how many time in the books does it say that Snap was Voldemort's adviser an of course Snape would want James dead over the Longbottoms. Anyway, what I am trying to say that just killing Snape of would not be saticfing enough. That's liking the seris ending and Voldemort is killed by Percy and Harry is killed is by Bill during a full moon. It just dosen't fit or feel right.

[subtle science]

On a more mundane note, I found a comment from Hermione that I'd been trying to recall all day. In reference to wizards' being able to change their appearance, the answer would apparently be yes:

"Well...when I went up to Madame Pomfrey to get them shrunk, she held up a mirror and told me to stop her when they were back to how they normally were," she said. "And I just...let her carry on a bit." She smiled even more widely. "Mum and Dad won't be too pleased. I've been trying to persuade them to let me shrink them for ages, but they wanted me to carry on with my braces" (p. 405, GoF, US paper).

This seems further to indicate that Snape looks as he does primarily because he chooses to remain so. It is who he is--Hermione changes her look happily because she doesn't really want to have big teeth...Snape seems to be operating on a whole other set of reasons....

As for more angsty issues...

I think that one of the aspects that makes the ending of the novel so emotionally draining (mirroring, by the way, what the characters must be feeling--great job, JKR) is that the two people who most loved Dumbledore attack each other. Each has been through a similar experience: Harry and the potion, Snape and the Avada Kedavara--they each had to destroy the man they loved. Yet, because of the tremendous wall between them, they can't see this reality--the reader can (well, most can--a few still have trouble with it!).

Instead of bringing them together, Dumbledore's death drives them further apart, even at the moment when they are probably most alike in their grief. That ratchets up the dramatic tension for the audience, because we can see what they cannot...It's the frustration of the Occlumency failure multiplied by 1,000.

I hope JKR does not elect to kill off Snape--whether it's an act of sacrifice or whatever...it's not a very inetresting end to the character...or to the relationship between Snape and Harry. Far more interesting and challenging would be trying to resolve the animosity between the two, allowing both to live so that they must deal with each other alive....There's been enough in the books of people fighting ghosts and memories of ghosts--let's not end the series with another generation of bitter memories....

I think my favorite ending would include Headmaster Severus Snape. : )

[Lady_Rebel]

Originally Posted by Potency

Wow, this post nearly brought tears to my eyes! Brilliant post!! Very heartfelt...you put into words what I had been feeling about the ending of HBP. And of course, now I have go and read the final chapter and play some really sad music. (Am I the only one who does that?)

*sniff* I, too, am guilty.

[alxlan11]

Hi everyone just thought i would give my opinion on Snape because he stuck out to me in HBP. I also think that the scene between Harry and Snape is an extremely important one because of the way Snape is acting. Throughout the entire series he has been a controlled man never being too emotional, and his skills in occlumens reflect that as lack of emotion is needed. However we see a Snape who seems sensitive and emotional after something terrible happens to him. When he finds Harry in his memory he loses it because he is reminded of when he was weak and being bullied and he also has to see his high school tormentors again. In the Flight of the Prince chapter we again see Snape overcome with emotion. He just had to kill the one wizard who meant everything to him. Dumbledore was the only person who ever trusted him possibly ever and to have to kill him was a terrible thing. (I am a supporter of snape is good btw) He had to perform the ultimate act of bravery, putting aside his strong feelings for Dumbledore to perform an act for the ultimate greater good. We as readers can see how disturbed Snape is by the way he is so greatly affected by Harry calling him a coward. All his life he has been seen a a kniving and self important person and he has just committed the ultimate act of selflessness that no one may ever know about. Snape does not react to the first time Harry calls him a coward but when he calls him a coward for killing Dumbledore he loses it completely. This shows us just how strongly Snape felt about Dumbledore in my opinon.

Anyway it might be a little confusing cuz i just wrote as i thought it but try to make whatever sense you can out of that.

[Jaguarundi]

Quote from silver ink pot:
I'm coming into this discussion rather late, but the main thing I think you're overlooking is whether Snape knows "HOW" to kill a werewolf. We have no canon that a werewolf can be killed by ordinary means, and JKR hasn't told us any ways that werewolves can be "destroyed." So there is really no canon that would tell us that a 15-year-old wizard could kill a werewolf.
Quote from silver ink pot:
As I said, there is no canon in these books about ways that Werewolves can be "controlled," not to mention "killed." The fact that Fenrir Greyback is able to kill a child and then bite someone with no apparent consequences shows that werewolves must be very difficult to kill or lock up - just as in the Norse Myth of the Fenris Wolf.

So I really can't understand why you would think Lupin would be in danger from Snape. Lupin would have the element of surprise, since Snape didn't know the "werewolf" was going to be there, and that tunnel is really low and twisty.

Actually there are canon ways for a werewolf to be controlled...the Marauders used physical force. Sirius is able to defeat Wolf!Lupin and drive him away from Harry and co. In the PoA movie Buckbeak does the same thing (not that the movie is canon).

We are given no inclination that a werewolf has the same abilities of a dragon to resist magic.

Quote from mdeligan:
I think that the Flight of the Prince chapter is one of the hardest to read and the ending of HBP in general is emotionally taxing. There are so many heart-wrenching moments, but there is something about that confrontation between Harry and Severus that really sends chills down my spine and re-reading subtle science's post brought all of those feelings back to me unexpectedly. Part of it is the setting - Dumbledore's death, the darkness and confusion, the flames, the screaming and flying curses - but it is just so painful to watch these two finally face-off, outside of the classroom and with the gloves off. And what is worse is that it isn't a confrontation where everything comes out and truths are told, which is the typical scene at the end of the book. There is no emotional release for either of them through the truth, no opportunity to finally say what each has wanted to say to the other for the longest time. Instead it is just more anger and confusion. The sight of two of Dumbledore's most loyal supporters at each other's throats would be hard even for the Headmaster to witness, especially since he knows them both so well. Yet I get the sense that while this confrontation is not cathartic (like Draco's emotional onslaught at DD), something fundamental has been revealed about one to the other (and to the reader?) but maybe not at the conscious level. At the funeral, Harry still seems to be under the impression that a meeting with Severus is possible, but not critical to his task, as if Severus is once again a sideline annoyance. But I think Severus will get under his skin the way Draco did and he will start to focus on what happened and why at the school. I can't even begin to imagine what Severus was thinking during and after that scene, but to have Harry on the ground, raw with emotion - as Severus was towards the end - and defenseless before your wand, it has to be a moment when the world stops, if just for a second. This isn't Harry-the-student trying to lie his way out of a situation or duck punishment, or whatever. It is Harry the person in his purest form and yet the scene is so pathetic with him trying so hard to throw spells and they are just useless. Absolutely useless. I guess Severus didn't see anything from Harry he hasn't seen before, he knows of both Harry's reckless bravery and weak dueling skills (compared to someone like Severus), but I would like to think that in the aftermath of all this, Severus learns something about Harry that maybe gets him away from the shadow of James. Or maybe not. Perhaps Harry acted like the little fireball that James was. I just would like to think that this scene unsettled some pre-conceptions at a subconscious level for both of them. Rowling said it is now personal between them, but I think it has been personal for a long time. I can't even think of the word that describes what happened between them outside of Hagrid's hut. "Personal" is a bit of an understatement.

I almost feel bad saying that I loved the ending of HBP. I finally got the feeling that things were going to be resolved next book.

[Potency]

Originally Posted by Jaguarundi

I almost feel bad saying that I loved the ending of HBP. I finally got the feeling that things were going to be resolved next book.

I think we all love it...its mentally and emotionally gripping.

[Olwen]

Originally posted by mdeligan
I think that the Flight of the Prince chapter is one of the hardest to read and the ending of HBP in general is emotionally taxing. There are so many heart-wrenching moments, but there is something about that confrontation between Harry and Severus that really sends chills down my spine

Beautiful post, mdeligan. Those last moments are intensely painful for me read too. I think my emotional response has become so intense after this book, and particularly this chapter that I want to shake Harry, make him grow up and see beyond the exterior for once. I want to shout at him that Severus always told him the truth, that he always protected him and that even now while Harry certainly wishes he could kill Severus, Severus is keeping the gloves on and still trying to teach him. I wish this were the moment when Severus could say "For God's sake, Harry, don't you understand I am on your side?", but I think all events are leading up to that moment when all seems to be lost and help comes from an unexpected source. And it will be cathartic.

Originally posted by Sly Lady
Prejudice? Goodness, I have Jane Austen on the brain now! "Pride and Prejudice" is all about the importance of learning to look beyond appearances and seeing the real character of a person, and the process of learning to do this effectively is what Dumbledore has been teaching Harry, and indeed, the secret of Dumbledore's success.

I think it is exactly like Pride and Prejucice, too. Dumbledore has been teaching everyone to look beyond the exterior with varying success. That is why after reading HPB and going back to the series I believe there is an honorable, "true" element to Severus Snape's character. Because Dumbledore trusted him, and that's good enough for me.

[Awiana]

I agree with everyone that Snape dying would be a too easy solution. I've got this awful feeling that he will die, but I'm hoping that JKR agrees with us and writes something more interesting. I would be disappointed if he has to dive in front of Harry when Voldemort tries to AK him for Harry/some readers to understand that he is one of the good guys.

Snape's and Harry's mutual hate seems so irrational somehow - I understand that they won't necessarily like each other, but it seems so weird that they hate each other so much. They only see the worst in each other, it seems like they hate each other just because they've decided to do so. It's so frustrating that Harry sees the Prince as his guide and friend and actually likes the Prince, but he has decided to hate Snape and can't see any good qualities in him! It would be very disappointing if they can never let go of their stupid prejudices and hate and finally accept each other.

And I agree, the ending of the novel is heartbreaking.

[subtle science]

Lupin, in HBP, seems to think that werewolves are fairly difficult to control:

"I bear the unmistakable signs of having tried to live among wizards, you see, whereas they have shunned normal society and live on the margins, stealing--and sometimes killing--to eat"

....

"And it is hard to argue with Greyback out there...."
"Who's Greyback?"
"You haven't heard of him?" Lupin's hands closed convulsively in his lap. "Fenrir Greyback is, perhaps, the most savage werewolf alive today. He regards it as his mission in life to bite and to contaminate as many people as possible; he wants to create enough werewolves to overcome the wizards....Voldemort has threatened to unleash him upon people's sons and daughters; it is a threat that usually produces good results....I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's inistence that we werewolves deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people" (pp. 334-335, US hardcover)

As large animals, James and Sirius could keep Lupin under control--especially as they were in no danger, anyway, being animals and not humans. Lupin's comments in HBP seem to indicate that, in fact, werewolves are quite difficult to control; the humans he speaks of don't seem to be very effective against werewolf attacks, even though the people are wizards.

So--I'm afraid I'll still say that it's highly unlikely that 15-year-old Snape--who doesn't even know he's meeting a werewolf--would suddenly be able to do what no other adult wizard seems particularly adept at. It seems implied that there must be some reason a werewolf as completely well known as Greyback isn't dead yet--he's got a whole career of mayhem outside of his alliance with Voldemort...and yet the Ministry and Aurors haven't taken him out yet. In fact, Lupin's own father didn't take revenge against Greyback.

Sirius sent Snape to be killed--maybe, at most, if the werewolf decided to be nice--mauled badly. Snape had no shot against a werewolf.

Olwen, Sly Lady--I agree about Dumbledore's trying to teach seeing below the surface...I think, perhaps, that was also his goal with Snape, as well as Harry. Had Occlumency succeeded--Snape could have seen below the surface he perceived of Harry. However--Dumbledore succeeded with neither Harry nor Snape: he set the stage, but they didn't make the leap...Dumbledore was always the mitigating figure between the two of them. One repercussion of his death is that buffer is removed, and Harry and Snape are going to have to deal with each other on their own terms, without that mediator.

[Potency]

This might be off-topic, but my understanding is that JKR really liked Sirius Black...just that thought alone makes me curious on how she viewed the whole werewolf incident. Has she commented on it at all?

Its amazing how her characters are so complex!

[Severus]

By Chrysalis
Snape's never described as smelly, though. Not that I can remember at least. Even the Marauders don't refer to his odour.

I also noticed he doesn’t have bad breath...

By DancingMaenid
I wouldn't be surprised if his quarters at Hogwarts are a bit nicer.

I picture his quarters at Hogwarts to be rather Spartan and gloomy.

By DancingMaenid
Or, random idea here, maybe Slytherin was stuck with some passive-agressive house elves who resented the work, and they mixed their laundry.

Passive-aggressive house elves…excellent!

By mdeligan
Regarding Snape's looks.....I always wondered if Rowling went overboard with it.

I get the impression that since these started as children’s books that it was fitting to make the supposed ‘villain’ villainous.

By DancingMaenid
our Snape!

That’s right.



Whizbang121, regarding your picture of Johnnie Damon…YUM.

By DancingMaenid
Random Snape-related note: I've decided that I like the idea of Snape becoming Hogwarts headmaster (even though I kind of doubt it'll happen), because then he can converse with Phineas Nigellus' portrait. Can't you just see those two talking?

My dream is Lupin as headmaster and Snape as protector. Kind of splitting up DD’s job between them.

[subtle science]

I took Snape's looks, after Book One, as quite misleading--he was the epitome of the Dark wizard, someone who seemed to have walked out of the pages of a fairy tale as an evil wizard--just as the descriptions of hags rely upon fairy tale versions of evil witches...He looks the part....

Snape's being stuck as a staff member under Headmaster Lupin...He might just start dipping into that Draught of Living Death............................

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by subtle science

Olwen, Sly Lady--I agree about Dumbledore's trying to teach seeing below the surface...I think, perhaps, that was also his goal with Snape, as well as Harry. Had Occlumency succeeded--Snape could have seen below the surface he perceived of Harry. However--Dumbledore succeeded with neither Harry nor Snape: he set the stage, but they didn't make the leap...Dumbledore was always the mitigating figure between the two of them. One repercussion of his death is that buffer is removed, and Harry and Snape are going to have to deal with each other on their own terms, without that mediator.

I wonder if Dumbledore didn't succeed better at helping Snape understand Harry. Snape says to many people that Harry is mediocre, a breaker of rules, and a nasty boy who is just like his father, but I don't think he completely believes it. Even through his own bitterness, Snape can see that Harry isn't a pampered prince, that he is in fact magically powerful, and intelligent, when he chooses to apply himself. A complication for Snape is that I think Harry & Snape are both jealous of Dumbledore's affection for the other, and for Snape, who is only loved by one person, Dumbledore, that's an especially miserable thing to accept.

Snape understands Harry's magical shortcomings, and is frustrated by the fact that he can't keep his mouth shut and his mind closed, but I think he's ready to "make the leap" when the chance presents itself. Especially since he has killed Dumbledore, and doesn't have a whole lot of other options. I think Dumbledore went to his death believing Snape and Harry will make that leap, it is the next part of the plan. The whole point of Dumbledore's death is to set the stage for Snape and Harry to recognize each other, and being an optimist I think they will do so successfully, and the resulting relationship will be authentic, surprising and fascinating to read.

Originally Posted by subtle science
I think my favorite ending would include Headmaster Severus Snape. : )

Absolutely! I've felt that for some time, (I think his Patronus will change & be the phoenix too) but my friends have overwhelmed me with predictions of gloom & doom. I'm happy to see that you like it too. Having read your writings over the past couple of days, subtle science, I think you are channelling Severus Snape. Your insights and your writing are uncanny and amazing!

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Fig_Leaf

In the muggle world, tetracycline can stain teeth & is commonly prescribed to treat teenage acne...Just a possibility.

My daughter has a stain on one of her front teeth, and no dentist has ever been able to tell me exactly what caused it. She did have some antibiotics as a baby, but nothing near the amounts some kids have, so I really don't know. She uses those whitestrips and it clears up perfectly!

Here is something interesting:

Teeth naturally come in a variety of colors. Though the primary, or baby, teeth are usually rather white, adult teeth tend to form with a slightly darker color. This color is determined by heredity with the gene for yellow teeth being more dominant than the gene for white teeth.

http://utut.essortment.com/teethwhitening_rmfo.htm

Originally Posted by mdeligan

I remember coming across this link between willow and sallow some time ago when I was trying to figure out what sallow skin is and looks like. At first I thought of the Whomping Willow but then I thought of the Weeping Willow, which is a hybrid of the Chinese willow and the white willow, salix alba. When I see the shape of the Weeping Willow and the long, low-hanging branches covered with leaves, it just reminds me of Snape's profile: long hair curtaining his face which is looking downward from a hunched over body.

I love that willow picture!

I've see willows depicted on old tombstones, as well as on cross-stitch samplers, as a symbol of death and mourning. But at the same time, willows are one of the easiest trees to grow, and you can make a fertilizer just by soaking willow branches in water because they have so much growth hormone in them! It really works!

Aspirin (Salicylic Acid) was created from the bark of willow trees (Salix).

Here is the Celtic Ogham Information about willows. We know that Lily had a willow wand, so perhaps her birthday falls within this designation:

Ogham Willow Tree WILLOW (Saille) from April 15 - May 12 The Sea Serpent Cat or Hare Intuition The Moon (Llun) The Fire Festival of Beltane The Willow tree since ancient times has always been associated with death. In Northern Europe, the word witch and wicked is derived from the name of the Willow. It is considered to be a tree of enchantment. In Celtic mythology it is associated with the creation myth of two scarlet sea serpent eggs which contained the Sun and the Earth. These eggs were hidden in the boughs of the Willow tree until they hatched, thus bringing forth earthly life. The Willow is also associated with death as it is the obvious conclusion to birth and life.

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

see Snape as too much Dumbledore's heir, and too valuable to simply be knocked off in the name of atoning for "his sins", which after you get past first appearances are really not so terrible. None of the adults left standing at the end of HBP seem to have the qualities necessary to be "the next Dumbledore" to the extent that Snape does, in my opinion. He has great personal courage, he has integrity and he has the intelligence. Also, as the one I think is closest in Dumbledore's confidence, I think he understands what the good guys are all up against, and what's at stake. This is not to say no one else in the Order "gets it", but Snape is uniquely positioned and qualified to carry on for Dumbledore, and my reading of Dumbledore is that he had that hope for Snape.

I believe he had hope for Snape because Snape was still willing to help people, such as Draco or Narcissa.

Originally Posted by Sly Lady

Reading this, I think I've absorbed too much of Jane Austen's world view-I think Snape is essential to the future of his wizard society, but I think he has an obligation to learn to behave with civility and participate respectfully in his community. (I'm thinking of Dumbledore's comments to Uncle Vernon about manners in Ch. 3) Maybe Heathcliff has to transform into Mr. Darcy? Snape would likely decide that this scenario is truly a fate worse than death, and I think if we want atonement or sacrifice from Snape in Book 7, this is far more difficult than merely dying, and from my perspective, more interesting too!

Excellent Post!

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady

As I try to organize my profound thoughts, I'm giggling so hard at the idea of Snape doing the "happy dance" that I must quit here.

No, I just can't see the "happy dance" in any form.

Originally Posted by sly lady

Harry is full of prejudices, and through the series he has gradually learned that truths he took for granted are often mistaken. His initial belief that Sirius wants to kill him, his belief in his perfect, idealized father, his repeated beliefs that Snape wants to kill him, all need to be modified in the face of better understanding. But as one misunderstanding is cleared up, it seems that Harry takes on another. I think 16 year old Harry is often that impulsive, "feeling" person that Sirius was, although he has the potential to move beyond that, if he chooses to do so.

The trouble with Harry is that when he has time to "think" - for instance over the summer at the Dursleys - it just makes him hate Snape even more.

Originally Posted by subtle science

I think that one of the aspects that makes the ending of the novel so emotionally draining (mirroring, by the way, what the characters must be feeling--great job, JKR) is that the two people who most loved Dumbledore attack each other. Each has been through a similar experience: Harry and the potion, Snape and the Avada Kedavara--they each had to destroy the man they loved. Yet, because of the tremendous wall between them, they can't see this reality--the reader can (well, most can--a few still have trouble with it!).

I can see it! It's one of the most intense parts of the book, and I really have trouble re-reading it. Maybe in time . . .

Originally Posted by subtle science

I hope JKR does not elect to kill off Snape--whether it's an act of sacrifice or whatever...it's not a very inetresting end to the character...or to the relationship between Snape and Harry. Far more interesting and challenging would be trying to resolve the animosity between the two, allowing both to live so that they must deal with each other alive....There's been enough in the books of people fighting ghosts and memories of ghosts--let's not end the series with another generation of bitter memories....

I think my favorite ending would include Headmaster Severus Snape. : )

Yes, I also want a happy ending for Snape. What point does his life have if he is this super genius/healer/spy/teacher/soldier/etc. if he just falls off a cliff at the end and becomes another sacrifice to Voldemort. I just can't believe JKR would do it. But she's surprised me before.

Originally Posted by alxlan11

Dumbledore was the only person who ever trusted him possibly ever and to have to kill him was a terrible thing. (I am a supporter of snape is good btw) He had to perform the ultimate act of bravery, putting aside his strong feelings for Dumbledore to perform an act for the ultimate greater good. We as readers can see how disturbed Snape is by the way he is so greatly affected by Harry calling him a coward. All his life he has been seen a a kniving and self important person and he has just committed the ultimate act of selflessness that no one may ever know about. Snape does not react to the first time Harry calls him a coward but when he calls him a coward for killing Dumbledore he loses it completely. This shows us just how strongly Snape felt about Dumbledore in my opinon.

Great post! Welcome!

Originally Posted by Potency

I think we all love it...its mentally and emotionally gripping.

I would never say that I "love" the ending of HBP. I actually still have alot of problems with it! Major problems, but after the initial shock that last about a month, I've come to grips with it.

JKR just likes to keeps us "wondering" about Snape. But for all that she tells us in HBP, there are 20 more questions. I think that's rather abusive towards her readers. Few great characters in literature have been kept so mysterious through so many pages, to the chagrin of so many readers!

[Potency]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I would never say that I "love" the ending of HBP. I actually still have alot of problems with it! Major problems, but after the initial shock that last about a month, I've come to grips with it.

That ending got me hook, line, and sinker. And I was completely obsessed with the books BEFORE that. I think even if some of her wording could have been changed ("i, the half-blood prince!" as a little much and un-Snape-like), the fact that she has so much in there that every time you re-read it, you see something new...I think its brilliant.

Okay, the Buckbeak part was cheesy, but she had to get Snape outta there before he said anything that would clue Harry in.