Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[subtle science]

Chievrefueil--I wonder if removing a memory and placing it in a bottle means there's a mental gap? If the memory is really removed, then it is no longer in the mind--and then there would be a piece missing, revealed by other memories that refer to the missing ones.....

That rather makes Occlumency and the creation of false memories to be the simplest way, after all! : )

Good point, too, about Snape's motives for keeping Sirius at 12GP...he says it's to inform Dumbledore--but wouldn't it be ironic if he really wanted to keep Sirius safe?

As for what Snape may have thought of the mission at which Voldemort hasn't succeeded--the first thought JKR seems to want the readers to have is the capture and subsequent death of Harry.

By the way--Welcome to all the new posters! I am abysmal at remembering that little courtesy...blame it on living in my own little world............ : )

[cinnamonluvr]

Originally Posted by subtle science

Everything Snape does must rely on subtlety and nuance--two concepts foreign to Sirius' nature. Snape, the spy at the center is the only one who has to be allowed to improvise--because only he knows precisely what's going on, on both sides. He has to make the right call, and he has to be able to do it on his own--he has to be trusted to make the appropriate--or the best under the circumstances--decisions, whether on the spur of the moment or after long consideration.

I agree! I just have to comment on how amazed I am that you can write so much and explain your ideas so well. I have no patience and tend to fumble through my replies. Anyway, I think that at the top of the tower, Snape was put into one of those 'tight situations' and had to make the most advantageous choice. DD didn't necessarily have to expect to die like that in order for Snape to be good.

On another note, I find it strange how some ppl think that the Slytherin traits equal evil. I didn't think that at all until I read other ppl's comments. Take ambition- it isn't a bad thing or mean that you want power. It's just the will to succeed or a strong desire. I would use it to say something like "it's my ambition to be a doctor, or I have an ambition to own a store one day." Taken this way, I can see Snape belonging in Slytherin. With his miserable background, he wanted to make something of himself- and trying to make something of yourself doesn't make you bad.

[Severus]

Good point, too, about Snape's motives for keeping Sirius at 12GP...he says it's to inform Dumbledore--but wouldn't it be ironic if he really wanted to keep Sirius safe?

Swearing under his breath at having to play baby-sitter!

As for what Snape may have thought of the mission at which Voldemort hasn't succeeded--the first thought JKR seems to want the readers to have is the capture and subsequent death of Harry.

*puts on dunce's cap*

By the way--Welcome to all the new posters!

Thanks, it's great to be here.

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

And if this is a source, then it is clear that Snape is a master spy, just like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

I liked The Scarlet Pimpernel, but I can't see Snape putting up acting like him at all! Snape's "acting" is of an entirely different sort.

Originally Posted by PotionStudent

When do they take place?

I've never heard of a sequel until today. It takes places during the French Revolution. Just because I'm putting off real work (again) and have a paperback copy of this book, I thought I'd provide the information from the back cover:

Terror has descended upon the city of Paris. Every day, innocent men, women, and children are being sent to their deaths on the guillotine. Their only crime is their ancestry. And no one is forgiven.

Yet somehow, some way, a few people do escape. The mob is furious. Who dares to lead these people to safety? The secretive figure is known only by the calling card he leaves behind -- a small red flower called the scarlet pimpernel.

Set against the perilous background of the French Revolution, The Scarlet Pimpernel, is the story of a brave Englishman -- and of a beautiful young woman he cannot permit himself to love.

--Copyright 1985 by Watermill Press, Mahwah, New Jersey (USA)

I'm not sure when the original was published (1905?) --long enough ago to no longer be under copyright. You can read it here. SIP, I don't know if this is the page that you were looking at or not, but all of the books by Baroness Orczy in the "pimpernel series" are available to read here. (I had no idea there were so many stories!)

Originally Posted by eeny

About the pictures from American eddition: people got the in their books in some places around Europe, too. It is a disaster to open the books!

Why is it a disaster to open the books? Because Snape doesn't look like he's supposed to look?

Originally Posted by subtle science

Chievrefueil--I wonder if removing a memory and placing it in a bottle means there's a mental gap? If the memory is really removed, then it is no longer in the mind--and then there would be a piece missing, revealed by other memories that refer to the missing ones.....

What an interesting idea! It seems that Snape would always have to create a new memory or alter his memory a bit, so that no gap is noticed. The Pensieve can't be fooled, but a Legilimens can. . .

Originally Posted by subtle science

Good point, too, about Snape's motives for keeping Sirius at 12GP...he says it's to inform Dumbledore--but wouldn't it be ironic if he really wanted to keep Sirius safe?

Yes, although I would think he'd be more concerned about keeping Harry safe.

Originally Posted by subtle science

As for what Snape may have thought of the mission at which Voldemort hasn't succeeded--the first thought JKR seems to want the readers to have is the capture and subsequent death of Harry.

I agree. A friend of mine thought that was the case, until I pointed out that Voldemort would want to kill Harry himself. Also, I don't think that Snape would have promised to kill Harry any more than he would have promised to kill Dumbledore. Draco's mission could really be any number of things, though, including stealing a founder's object with which to create a Horcrux.

Originally Posted by cinnamonluvr

On another note, I find it strange how some ppl think that the Slytherin traits equal evil. I didn't think that at all until I read other ppl's comments. Take ambition- it isn't a bad thing or mean that you want power. It's just the will to succeed or a strong desire. I would use it to say something like "it's my ambition to be a doctor, or I have an ambition to own a store one day." Taken this way, I can see Snape belonging in Slytherin. With his miserable background, he wanted to make something of himself- and trying to make something of yourself doesn't make you bad.

I completely agree. I've said this many times before, but the traits of the houses are neutral, it's the students within the houses who are not.

[april]

Chievrefueil--I wonder if removing a memory and placing it in a bottle means there's a mental gap? If the memory is really removed, then it is no longer in the mind--and then there would be a piece missing, revealed by other memories that refer to the missing ones.....

I don't think this is the case because Dumbledore always seems to be able to explain things so well, and Severus gets so mad about the "Snape's Worst Memory" thing. He must've known what the memory was or exactly how humiliated he was in order to et so upset over it.

[Jaguarundi]

Quote from Chievrefueil
What an interesting idea! It seems that Snape would always have to create a new memory or alter his memory a bit, so that no gap is noticed. The Pensieve can't be fooled, but a Legilimens can. . .

I thought that a Legilimens could detect false memories...doesn't Dumbledore say he used Legilimency on Morfin?

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by Jaguarundi

I thought that a Legilimens could detect false memories...doesn't Dumbledore say he used Legilimency on Morfin?

Here is the quote:

Originally Posted by HBP, A Sluggish Memory

'But he had this real memory in him all the time!'

'Yes, but it took a great deal of skilled Legilimency to coax it out of him. . .I was able to secure a visit to Morfin in the last weeks of his life, by which time I was attempting to discover as much as I could about Voldemort's past. I extracted this memory with difficulty. . .

I don't think that Dumbledore would have been able to "coax" this memory out of Morfin, if he hadn't already known what to look for--he must have already suspected that Voldemort commited the crime for which Morfin was imprisoned. Also, Morfin must be in a very weakened state--a few weeks from death after Dementors have been wreaking havoc with his mind--and it was still difficult for Dumbledore to extract the memory. How much harder would it be against a skilled Occlumens like Snape*--would it even be possible?

*I got Snape in there!

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Awiana

SIP, I really like your new avatar and sig too, and I love autumn! It’s my favorite season! Hmm… it seems that many people who love Snape love autumn too!

Thank you! Fall is definitely my favorite season, and I'm just waiting for the leaves to turn - they're just starting to fall here.

Originally Posted by Severus

Yes, SIP, your autumnal pictures are beautiful. I wonder what percentage of HP fans favorite season is autumn?

Probably alot! Thank you and welcome!

I really like your name, of course!

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I liked The Scarlet Pimpernel, but I can't see Snape putting up acting like him at all! Snape's "acting" is of an entirely different sort.

You're absolutely right - Snape is quite different because he never plays the fool the way Blakeney does. However, Snape plays the "big bad Slytherin" perfectly.

What I liked in the scene I quoted was the idea that Blakeney has no romantic or otherwise connection to the woman in distress, yet he vows to help her find her son. It's very chivalrous.

There is another book called "El Dorado" in which Blakeney wants to find the lost Prince of France, who has been kidnapped and mistreated. Rescuing children seems to be a theme, and in one of the books I was looking at today, there seems to be a vow that all the "League of the Pimpernel" members take to "protect the innocent."

It's interesting to me that we all think of the Order of the Phoenix as a group that "fights" against Voldemort. But after reading HBP, I'm wondering more and more if the members have to vow to protect each other and especially the children. The "League of the Scarlet Pimpernel" is a secred society, too, that seeks to rescue people from the guillotine. Blakeney uses lots of disguises and trickery to make it happen - I find it really fun to read. He is sort of an early "Bruce Wayne/Batman" type character who isn't what he appears.

But again, you are right that he doesn't look like Snape or act like Snape, except that he is sometimes a gentleman, and he's very brave. I think he was more an inspiration to JKR than anything else.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I'm not sure when the original was published (1905?) --long enough ago to no longer be under copyright. You can read it here. SIP, I don't know if this is the page that you were looking at or not, but all of the books by Baroness Orczy in the "pimpernel series" are available to read here. (I had no idea there were so many stories!)

Thanks for the links! Here is another link to all the books online of Baroness Orczy:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu...y%2c%20Emmuska

She also wrote a series called "Molly of Scotland Yard," which has the first female detective.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Why is it a disaster to open the books? Because Snape doesn't look like he's supposed to look?

I never even look at those drawings of Snape in the books. They are so far from what I pictured, that I've always despised them. My favorites are the ones of Luna and Dobby, and those are really the only ones I've ever looked at closely.

[eVaNeScEnCe]

Originally Posted by cinnamonluvr

On another note, I find it strange how some ppl think that the Slytherin traits equal evil. I didn't think that at all until I read other ppl's comments. Take ambition- it isn't a bad thing or mean that you want power. It's just the will to succeed or a strong desire. I would use it to say something like "it's my ambition to be a doctor, or I have an ambition to own a store one day." Taken this way, I can see Snape belonging in Slytherin. With his miserable background, he wanted to make something of himself- and trying to make something of yourself doesn't make you bad.

It's not just ambition, but the stigma attached to Slytherin students through their willingness to "step over" others in order to attain those ambitions. And because they're perceived as selfish and self-interested, it's believed that they aren't likely to put their life on the line for others--ala Gryffindors, which is ridiculous. In its most basic form, what Draco did in HBP was put his life on the line for his family. Snape has already proven more than once that he's willing to put his life on the line, without there being a significant reward at the end.

Conversely, those who are thought to come from a brave and noble house are sometimes the ones who perform the most dastardly and cowardly acts (Pettigrew). In truth, I'm hoping that by the end of the series, JK will have negated and eradicated the idea of house classification and their subjective "labels". They're just inaccurate, inconsistent, and only serve in generating more prejudices.

[cinnamonluvr]

Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe

It's not just ambition, but the stigma attached to Slytherin students through their willingness to "step over" others in order to attain those ambitions.

Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe

Conversely, those who are thought to come from a brave and noble house are sometimes the ones who perform the most dastardly and cowardly acts (Pettigrew). In truth, I'm hoping that by the end of the series, JK will have negated and eradicated the idea of house classification and their subjective "labels". They're just inaccurate, inconsistent, and only serve in generating more prejudices.

I agree. I just find it annoying how some people imply that 'Slytherin is evil since the hat said that they're ambitious and cunning- and therefore, by having those traits, means they're bad...etc' Actually, I find Hermione very ambitious, and, as you said, Snape has done brave things and Peter has been a coward.

About SWM, I'm thinking that the pensieve either leaves an 'imprint', like a shadow of the memory, or either copies it. Actually, I thought of an idea while reading about this memory thing- and anyone can tell me if it has any merit. DD said that he uses the pensieve to help him think (and in the interview JK said that the pensieve shows reality) and uses it to show Harry events of the past. So- I'm thinking- what if Snape wasn't just using the pensieve to hide the memories, but to look over the events- like DD did. If so, why did he want to take another look at this memory? Was he thinking of Lily? (and I'm not necessarily saying he loved her or anything) Was he looking for something? Or maybe it's nothing and it was just a plot device to show Snape's past and what the Marauder's were like.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by cinnamonluvr

About SWM, I'm thinking that the pensieve either leaves an 'imprint', like a shadow of the memory, or either copies it. Actually, I thought of an idea while reading about this memory thing- and anyone can tell me if it has any merit. DD said that he uses the pensieve to help him think (and in the interview JK said that the pensieve shows reality) and uses it to show Harry events of the past. So- I'm thinking- what if Snape wasn't just using the pensieve to hide the memories, but to look over the events- like DD did. If so, why did he want to take another look at this memory? Was he thinking of Lily? (and I'm not necessarily saying he loved her or anything) Was he looking for something? Or maybe it's nothing and it was just a plot device to show Snape's past and what the Marauder's were like.

Well, Snape doesn't take the memory out of his mind until Harry is already with him, so I don't think he meant to look over it in depth at that time. I think there are a few reasons for removing the memory, and all of them could be true.

1. Snape doesn't want to think about the Marauders/Lily episode while he is in mind contact with Harry.

2. Snape doesn't want Harry to see something so humiliating.

3. Snape didn't want Harry to see the memory and ask him questions about Lily, especially if he still has feelings for her of one kind or another.

4. Snape didn't want Harry to see it and mention it to Sirius, Lupin, or Dumbledore - assuming Dumbledore never knew about the incident before then.

5. Snape doesn't want his hatred for the Marauders to interfere with his ability to teach Harry.

6. Something else might have happened in the memory that Harry didn't see - either the way the memory ended (pants or no pants), or even some little thing Harry didn't notice.

7. It is indeed a plot device that shows an objective view of the past, but also shows that Harry's curiousity leads him astray.

Perhaps "All of the above."

[random_musing]

I've stopped by v. 2 every once in a while but I'd like to really get in depth with this new version out (this thread is so fast its hard to catch up!)

Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe

It's not just ambition, but the stigma attached to Slytherin students through their willingness to "step over" others in order to attain those ambitions. And because they're perceived as selfish and self-interested, it's believed that they aren't likely to put their life on the line for others--ala Gryffindors, which is ridiculous.

I've had that thought in the back of my mind for a while now and finally someone has put it into words for me! The times we've seen Slytherins doing this have been is such urgent, life threatning situations that it's impossible for me to think that self-interest is all they care about especially after HBP, where we truley see our favorite Slytherins put to the test.

[Norbertha]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

It's interesting that Slughorn should be the most shaken. Is it because he's trying to redirect any suspicion that he might ever have taught Snape anything in the past that helped Snape to do something evil? Or is it a red flag? Should we trust Slughorn? Dumbledore seems to. . .

Or is it just because Slughorn is a drama queen?

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Originally Posted by Norbertha
Just a random idea: Could the someone he regarded as being cool or smart be Lucius?

That seems very plausible!

Thanks, but that implies that they had met before Severus started school. Originally, I thought they had. But after the HBP, I’m not so sure anymore. I thought, if the Malfoys and the Princes were friends, which could well be, I still don’t think the Malfoys would have had anything with Eileen and her son, since she went and married a Muggle. Hm. But perhaps Severus’s grandparents (Eileen’s parents) knew Lucius’s parents or grandparents, and that Severus met Lucius through them, without getting Tobias involved?

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

It's a question that is driving me crazy! I walk around thinking about Eileen Prince and why she liked Gobstones ~ as if that is a question of utmost importance!

And why did Snape refer to himself as the "Half-Blood Prince"? That implies a close connection with his mother's family, I think. Yet he kept his muggle father's name and still lives in his house.

Harry is dead wrong about there being a big similarity between Tom Riddle and Snape. All the clues we have imply family ties that Voldemort just never had.

I think you have a very good point about Snape referring to his family, as opposed to Voldemort trying to eradicate his!

Originally Posted by eeny

About the pictures from American eddition: people got the in their books in some places around Europe, too. It is a disaster to open the books!

I learned at a Harry Potter conference this summer (Accio 2005) that the reason why a lot of translations use the American cover design and chapter illustrations, is that somebody – was it Warner Brothers? - bought all the artwork, and they are now sending it out to all the publishers with the message: You can either use this artwork, for free, or if you use any other artwork, we will stop you... Well, that’s the impression I got from the talk, anyway. I think alternative artwork is allowed, but not any alternative Harry Potter logos – or something. I’m not an expert on copyright law.

Originally Posted by mdeligan

Since I also agree with you about Snape using spin over outright lies, I am still wondering by what he meant in Chapter 2 about Vance and Black. Particularly Vance. I know he is trying to create a certain image for the sisters but I have to wonder what really happened.

Subtle and others have already made very good points about this, but I would like to add my two knuts anyway, since I didn’t have time to post anything yesterday.

It does disturb me too that Snape takes credit for Emmeline Vance’s murder. However, he also takes credit for Sirius’s death, and we know he wasn’t really responsible for that. It was Kreacher who told the Malfoys, who told Voldemort about how Harry felt about Sirius and vice versa, wasn’t it? Snape didn’t do anything. In fact, he tried to stop Sirius from going to the Department of Mysteries. Still, he claims credit for it in the scene with Bellatrix and Narcissa. So he needn’t have been any more involved with Emmeline vance’s death than he was with Sirius’s.

Wait! I just realised something! Narcissa! She must know it was Kreacher who gave them information about Sirius! Why does she not contradict Snape when he claims credit for Sirius’s death?

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Here is the quote from HBP:
Quote:
". . .The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

Hm. He says he “certainly helped”. It’s perhaps vague enough to lead Narcissa to believe that Voldemort got additional information from Snape?

No! Wait! Now I know! Snape wants Bellatrix to think that it was he who contacted Sirius and told him that Harry thought that he was in danger at the DoM. Bellatrix and Narcissa don’t know that Snape asked Sirius to stay behind. What he’s actually taking credit for, here, is making Sirius come to the DoM by telling him that Harry was there. Which is not an outright lie, but just “spinning” the truth.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Well, as you can see, I've redecorated my siggy and avatar for the Autumnal Equinox!

I don’t like autumn, but your signature and avatar are beautiful.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

The crux of this statement seems to be the assumption that Snape would be able to figure out that what Voldemort failed to do was to kill Dumbledore. I'm just not sure that's the case . . .

The first thing I thought of, too, when you asked this question, Chiev, is that the thing Voldemort has failed to do, is to kill Harry. Voldemort has never planned to kill Dumbledore, has he? The only time in the books where Voldemort has tried to kill Dumbledore, is during their duel in the Atrium. And it wasn’t planned, I think, it only happened because Dumbledore was between Voldemort and Harry, who he thought had the prophecy. Of course, this episode could be what Narcissa is thinking of.

Originally Posted by subtle science

Chievrefueil--I wonder if removing a memory and placing it in a bottle means there's a mental gap? If the memory is really removed, then it is no longer in the mind--and then there would be a piece missing, revealed by other memories that refer to the missing ones.....

Yes, that’s a clever idea!

I have as much trouble comprehending the removal of memories as others have comprehending the time turner! Because, when you pick a memory out of your brain, using your wand (whether it ends up in a pensieve or in a bottle), what happens?:

1) Either the memory is removed from the brain, and the only copy exists in the container. Which would make sense if Snape wanted to hide his memory about SWM from Harry. But this doesn’t explain how he can know which memory Harry is viewing, and be angry about it. His anger suggests that there is at least an imprint of the memory still left in his brain, but then, what does he gain by hiding it in the pensieve?
2) What is in the container, is only a copy of the memory. This option explains why Occlumency is needed at all. Otherwise, people who wished to lie could just store their memories in a bottle. But it doesn’t explain what Snape was doing with the pensieve ...

??????

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I think there are a few reasons for removing the memory, and all of them could be true.

1. Snape doesn't want to think about the Marauders/Lily episode while he is in mind contact with Harry.

2. Snape doesn't want Harry to see something so humiliating.

3. Snape didn't want Harry to see the memory and ask him questions about Lily, especially if he still has feelings for her of one kind or another.

4. Snape didn't want Harry to see it and mention it to Sirius, Lupin, or Dumbledore - assuming Dumbledore never knew about the incident before then.

5. Snape doesn't want his hatred for the Marauders to interfere with his ability to teach Harry.

6. Something else might have happened in the memory that Harry didn't see - either the way the memory ended (pants or no pants), or even some little thing Harry didn't notice.

7. It is indeed a plot device that shows an objective view of the past, but also shows that Harry's curiousity leads him astray.

Perhaps "All of the above."

Great list, Silver!

[subtle science]

I have nothing to back it up--but it just seems as if a removed memory would still be in one's mind, through other memories connected to it. For instance, SWM is removed, but Snape still remembers what happened that afternoon in the DADA practical exam, which probably reminds him of and connects to the written exam....But it would become secondary to the main memory of the practical exam.

Harry would not have been able to see SWM directly, therefore, but, if he were able to probe deeply into Snape's memories, he could find references to it.

Slow reaction time--silver ink pot--I agree with your point that Snape emphasizes his family, rather than deny them as Voldemort does. Voldemort, of course, disposes with his entire name, symbolically cutting himself off from his family. Snape uses both names and never attempts to 'erase' his Muggle father.

As for Slughorn's reaction to Dumbleodre's death and Snape's role in it...Hagrid told him about it before he comes to the office: what Slughorn says comes out of him as soon as he walks into the Heads of Houses meeting--it's not his instant reaction upon first hearing the news. I don't know if or how important that could be--but it is a detail that I noticed.

What really odd--amidst what he says and the description of him as "shaken" and "pale" is the additional description of him as "sweating"...huh? That's not typical of grief as are the other two adjectives. That's fear. He came to Hogwarts for Dumbledore's protection...Shortly after his first comment, he says that they are probably as safe at Hogwarts as anywhere else, as he predicts that mothers will probably keep their children home and not send them to school the next year....

I'm still not sure what to make of it all. I definitely don't trust Slughorn, as he is completely consumed by self interest...Is he afraid of Snape, now? Is he so shaken because he didn't know Snape was a DE and he had no idea that his former student was capable of such an act? Is that why he decides Hogwarts is as safe as anywhere else, even though DUmbledore is gone--because Snape is gone, too?

The detail of "sweating" red flags, to me, that once again self interest is at the core of Slughorn's reaction...whatever's going on, it sure isn't grief.

[Chrysalis]

No no...I think Slughorn was genuinely shaken by Dumbledore's death and the fact that Snape killed him. Come on people, we're the ones who appreciate Snape for being a truly complex character...then surely Slughorn isn't one-dimensional? He's not a bad person, yes he does have major flaws and he's a bit of a jerk but he's not evil. I think that Slughorn knows something important about Snape. He's done some stupid things in the past - we saw where Tom Riddle got just by massaging his ego a bit - but Dumbledore evidently trusted him, and that should be enough. I think Slughorn's a red herring rather than a red flag - he's pretty harmless. The traitor will come from some other, unexpected place.

[Awiana]

Subtle Science, great observation about Slughorn’s description… I didn’t notice it at first, but now that I think about it, it seems possible that Slughorn could be frightened because there was a DE in Hogwarts, where he thought he could be safe, and is concerned mostly about his own safety. Maybe this is a too negative view of Slughorn, I don’t know, but I definitely don’t like or trust him...

Originally Posted by subtle science

I'm still not sure what to make of it all. I definitely don't trust Slughorn, as he is completely consumed by self interest...Is he afraid of Snape, now? Is he so shaken because he didn't know Snape was a DE and he had no idea that his former student was capable of such an act? Is that why he decides Hogwarts is as safe as anywhere else, even though Dumbledore is gone--because Snape is gone, too?

I think Slughorn’s comment “Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!” implies that he didn’t know Snape was a DE. I don’t know why, but that’s just the feeling I got from that comment. And he also doesn’t seem to want to be associated with DEs, but he seems friendly towards Snape in the christmas party. Of course, it could be that he does know that Snape was a DE, but believes that now Snape is completely loyal to Dumbledore, but somehow I don’t see Slughorn as a person who would trust people as completely as Dumbledore does.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Or is it just because Slughorn is a drama queen?

ETA: Just to clarify, I don't think Slughorn is evil, or that he will be a traitor... I just don't like him.

[clkginny]

Well, I‘m still not caught up. I thought I‘d respond to a few things that were said in the last version, though.

Originally Posted by subtle science

Hmmm....I can't quite see how it would protect Flitwick to leave him unconscious and vulnerable down in the dungeons. That means the two students are left to look after Flitwick, instead of having him with them to help protect them--as well his being a distraction and concern should any DEs arrive. And--why not knock out the girls, too, then?

Given the assumption that Snape knows who got the FF potion, he might not be willing to try. If Dumbledore mentioned that Harry was suspicious of Draco, he might expect Harry to give it to his friends. All speculation, of course, but it does fit the known facts.

Originally Posted by thestralgrin

But someone who is under the Imperio curse wont nescessarily act like a robot all the time - on the way back from the cave Harry & DD met Madam Rosmerta and she was behaving quite "normally" to casual observation - yet it turned out she was actually under Imperio, and therefore could not be trusted until the curse was removed. She would have behaved "normally" most of the time, until something came up that triggered/intefered with the spell-caster's instructions - at which time the curse would then kick in.

I think someone else mentioned this, but I was reading too fast to catch it all. If Flitwick was under the Imperious Curse and trying to fight it, he might very well act wooden. It is hard to be sure.

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Hmmm...I think Hermione is a pretty effective liar. She's better than Harry, anyway. I mean, she was able to (apparently) fool McGonagall in her first year, when she lied about going after the troll.

Yes, but McGonagall didn’t know Hermione very well then. She would have no reason to assume Hermione is lying. Now she knows Hermione well enough to have a good chance of noticing if Hermione is acting differently. After all, McGonagall is Hermione’s head of house.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Wait! I just realised something! Narcissa! She must know it was Kreacher who gave them information about Sirius! Why does she not contradict Snape when he claims credit for Sirius’s death?

I think Narcissa is overwrought, but also she is out of the loop and doesn't really know what goes on between Snape and Voldemort.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

No! Wait! Now I know! Snape wants Bellatrix to think that it was he who contacted Sirius and told him that Harry thought that he was in danger at the DoM. Bellatrix and Narcissa don’t know that Snape asked Sirius to stay behind. What he’s actually taking credit for, here, is making Sirius come to the DoM by telling him that Harry was there. Which is not an outright lie, but just “spinning” the truth.

I think that's right.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

No no...I think Slughorn was genuinely shaken by Dumbledore's death and the fact that Snape killed him. Come on people, we're the ones who appreciate Snape for being a truly complex character...then surely Slughorn isn't one-dimensional? He's not a bad person, yes he does have major flaws and he's a bit of a jerk but he's not evil. I think that Slughorn knows something important about Snape. He's done some stupid things in the past - we saw where Tom Riddle got just by massaging his ego a bit - but Dumbledore evidently trusted him, and that should be enough. I think Slughorn's a red herring rather than a red flag - he's pretty harmless. The traitor will come from some other, unexpected place.

No, I don't think of Slughorn as one-dimensional at all. But I was re-reading the scene between Sluggy and young Tom Riddle and he sounds exactly like Scrimgeour. He tells Tom that if he "keeps sending pineapple," then he would help him get "in" at the Ministry in a few years. It's just like Scrimgeour tempting Harry with pulling strings to help him become an Auror. Slughorn is so self-important and shallow that it makes me squirm when I read someof the things he says.

The only good thing about Slughorn is that he feels some guilt about Tom Riddle's knowledge of horcruxes. Everything else about him is pretty gross.

I don't think Dumbledore necessarily trusted him, but he wanted to keep an eye on him and he wanted the memory. Those are two good reasons to have him back. Plus, if we speculate that Dumbledore had foreseen that Snape only had a year left due to the DADA curse, and perhaps Dumbledore either planned or foresaw his own death, then it would make sense to have Slughorn at Hogwarts to be the Head of Slytherin.

[subtle science]

I don't view Slughorn as one-dimensional--in fact, that is exactly my point: I don't find him to be what he appears superficially. On the other hand, I've never said he's a traitor. What he is is untrustworthy and self absorbed.

Grief over Dumbledore should not manifest itself as "sweating." That has more to do with Snape, Snape's actions, and the invasion of Hogwarts.

[Potency]

Originally Posted by subtle science

I don't view Slughorn as one-dimensional--in fact, that is exactly my point: I don't find him to be what he appears superficially. On the other hand, I've never said he's a traitor. What he is is untrustworthy and self absorbed.

Grief over Dumbledore should not manifest itself as "sweating." That has more to do with Snape, Snape's actions, and the invasion of Hogwarts.

Not to be a nerd here, but since Slughorn is very obese, its actually pretty realistic he'd be sweating even under slight exertion, even if he just hurried to the office. Having said that, I thought Slughorn was suspicious as well.