Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[Potency]

Originally Posted by BookWhizzbee

That said, I don't know about you, but I enjoyed that discussion. As I have said before (to someone on another thread), it's pointless to have a discussion if everybody agrees.

I agree.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[subtle science]

I don't know--up to this point, we seem to have been able to agree or disagree without having it pointed out that we overlook the obvious....

It seemed to work, but I haven't the clearest view of it.

At any rate, offering again my apologies for anyone who found my ideas too biased................

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by NinaSmith 90

Does anyone else think its odd that the two students who snape is cruel to just happens to be the two boys who the prophecy could have referred to.

From Snape’s perspective, I think it’s completely unrelated. He hates Harry because of James (and possibly because he’s a reminder of Lily). He treats Neville as he does because Neville is so inept.

From the perspective of the story, I’m sure it’s related though. If the prophecy could have referred to either Harry or Neville, it makes sense to have them as opposites with Neville less talented—to show what Harry might be, if not for Voldemort’s choice. (And, if Neville was more talented, Snape would probably not treat his as he does.)

Originally Posted by hwyla

About Snape's parents' name & his muggle heritage:
My favorite mugglism he dropped was in CoS when matching kids to duel, Snape cautioned about whomever Neville would be dueling needing to be carried out in a MATCHbox (when you have lumos and fire spells at the tip of your wand)

That’s brilliant! I don’t know why that never stood out to me before.

I in no way mean for the following to be seen as argumentative:

Originally Posted by BookWhizbee

I brought up the whole thing because I was a little surprised at how many people felt that the fact that Lupin allows the Boggart-Snape scene to happen can be compared to SWM. I was wondering if people might just maybe be a little biased in favour of Snape. So I brought up the question of whether or not they would then also say that Snape bullies Neville. (Not to excuse anything, but to make sure we are not applying different measures to different people.)

I note with interest that so far not a single person has agreed that Snape is a bully at times where his students are concerned, but some were very eager to explain how Snape only means good and only has his students' best interests in mind.

I really have no idea why you came away with this impression. I don’t think that Snape is a bully and I suppose I’m rather vocal about it, but I also realize that mine is the minority opinion. I also stated that I thought Lupin was acting for Neville’s benefit in the boggart scene.

Just to summarize, here are the posts on the subject from those who commented about Snape and Lupin for comparative purposes. (I didn’t include any posters who commented only on one or the other.)

Originally Posted by Morgan LeFay (#903)

What a subtle hint on bullying. Harry says Snape bullies Neville - well, he does. But Lupin bullies Snape also - note the "great shout of laughter", just as in SWM. But Harry and the rest of the class finds it amusing, hilarious. No one had seen it as bad thing. One teacher making fun of the other - nothing odd? No wonder why Snape was so nasty after the incident.

Originally Posted by subtle (#936)

ANd then there's the Neville/Boggart/Lupin thing. While there is the whole issue of how Snape treats Neville (generously given to us through the Harry Filter on many an occasion--Harry doesn't notice that Neville absolutely never learns from any mistake he makes, whatsoever, for instance, nor that Neville's 'mistakes' in Potions are actually quite harmful....but that's a whole other issue that's vastly expanding this parenthetical remark)--it was not Lupin's place to make a public display of his fellow faculty member.

Originally Posted by Potency

Snape--#959
Snape is definately a bully to Harry...and its a terrible cycle. James and co. bully Snape, Snape bullies Harry, Harry, so far, hasn't bullied anyone, but becomes insolent to Snape...I hope it ends in book 7, because that really is a terrible cycle. And when I say "end", I don't mean one of the bullies or bull-ees (I guess the proper term is "bullied"??) dies, but that they can actually make a breakthrough of sorts.

Lupin--#955

I think this is a very good point...I'm trying to think of different ways Neville could have imagined Snape that would turn his fear into laughter, and there's nothing that wouldn't be offensive. Maybe by Lupin suggesting Neville dress up Snape as his grandmother, he was actually coming up with a milder amusing image than what could have been...hey, its possible.

Originally Posted by hwyla

Snape--#963
Oh I agree that Snape is inappropriate, too. Especially for teaching younger kids. The best they should have done was have someone else start basics and let him teach NEWT level potions (with only the Outstandings). In fact the perfect job for him would have been NEWT-level Potions & DADA (if he wasn't teaching the lower grades he could teach both classes).

I think we ALL agree that Snape has 'issues'. No one thinks he's a 'nice guy'. But part of what makes him so interesting is that we're being given the chance to see how Snape was 'made' and just what damage otherwise seemingly 'nice' people can do. Not that I want to lay all Snape's problems at MWPPs feet, but they would appear to have greatly excaberated the problems Snape came to school with.

Lupin--#946
I still have problems with the Boggart scene mainly because what the children's fear might have revealed about them. It would have been unconsciencable to have accidently revealed a case of child abuse. I'm especially appalled because he expected one kid (Harry) to see VM, but never considered what the others might fear. The boggart was in the staff lounge - it would have been simple to have everyone line-up outside the door (maybe with Filch watching them if need be) and let everyone do it one-by-one.

Originally Posted by Chiev (#976)

I also think that Lupin genuinely intends to help Neville—that helping Neville is his primary (and possibly only) motivation for having Boggart!Snape end up in drag.

As for Snape, I would agree that he isn’t nice to Neville and that his style may actually hinder Neville’s learning, but I don’t feel that he is inappropriate toward Neville or bullying of him. I believe his demeanor toward Neville is still within the range of normal for a difficult teacher. As subtle pointed out, there is Harry’s interpretation of Snape to contend with, as well.

Originally Posted by fallingrock

Snape--#999
It seems that Severus has become less "nasty" to the students through the last three books. Probably due to the fact that he has bigger fish to fry. I do tend to forget how terrible he was in the first three books, it's been awhile since I've read them. However, I always felt that Severus taught this way because this is the way he was taught, even in the home. We see in the books that the older generation, through Gran Longbottom and Professor McGonagall, have the same type of methods only not quite to that extreme. We are also witnessing Severus in this scenes through Harry's perception which adds to Severus' as being seen as over the line. We don't hate Gran and McGonagall as much as Severus, even though they are portrayed in much the same light. I don't know if either one of them has ever called Neville an idiot boy, but they aren't using positive reinforcement either. Their criticisms are phrased just as negatively as Severus' are.

*snip*

While I may not agree with Severus' methods, I think he was trying to make the point that Neville's ineptitude with potions could endanger someone he cares about in a real sense. There might be an occasion where Neville would have to brew a potion for a friend or family member and it would have to be made correctly. Threatening Neville's pet does seem cruel but it does convey the message pretty vividly.

Lupin--#938
I also felt that Lupin was just trying to help Neville, until reading these posts. I never realized how unprofessional his actions were until reading these posts. I still feel that part of Lupin's intention was to help Neville and I think the true lesson regarding the Boggart is to teach people how to laugh at their fears, it diminishes their power, but I also feel that Lupin's behavior reflected his need to be liked and his old feud with Severus. What better way to gain your students favor than to ridicule their most hated professor? And Lupin had to be aware that Severus was against his teaching at Hogwart's. As it is I'm still thinking on this one, as I haven't quite decided whether Lupin's actions were just thoughtless or maliciously intentional. As usual Subtle makes some very good arguments in her post #936.

Originally Posted by atschpe

Snape—#1033
From my own experience I must say that there are certain types of characters who don't softened up when they sense someone on the verge of tears, but to the contrary get even worse. I doubt this is intentional, yet I believe they want to drive the message home and the "victim" is to busy to react and show that he/she are trying to improve or wanting to alter their mistake; being humiliated of knowing that any minute now the tears will spill (especially if there are onlookers as a class full of students) you are using all your might to keep a straight face.

Snape points out the mistake, but doesn't get a reaction from Neville to show that he understands what has gone wrong – Snape might even be at point where he thinks that this boy just can't do anything with a cauldron. To dirve home the message he takes the steps of threatening him with poisoning his pet – ture not very tactful, but it seems to be the only way he can see to reach the boy.
Neville on the other hand is struck dump by the affront. He himself knows he's doing his best, but just having received another blow from this dreaded teacher will duck down and remain silent.

We have seen that Snape doesn't not react to emotions (even dislikes them being shown – heart on a sleeve – and he might not even know a Neville different from the one cowering infront of him. Above all he seems to be angry and anger isn't the best trait when trying to dicpher what another person is feeling. Would he recognise that this boy, who is always shaking in his presence would this time be on the verge of tears?

Lupin--#934
on the boggart scene

I agree that Lupin didn't act as he should have. But it's interesting the way how he teaches Neville to confront the boggart. You've got the feeling of Lupin thinking to himself:
"Now, if Severus would be stadning in front of me and I could do anything I wanted to him, what would I do?"
He could have told Neville to imagine Snape turning into some fictive clown figure or something else which is hilarious that doesn't resemble Snape at all. It says nowhere that you are to keep the prior shape to a certain degree when attacking the boggart.
Yet, he falls back into his Marauder behaviour:
"Severus, in woman clothes; that'd be a laugh!"

Why doesn't he let Neville decide for himself? The other pupils are left alone with the task. Perhaps he apprehends that Snape's jib might have caused Neville's imagination to block. If so he could have started with someone else; yet I believe he wanted to prove to Neville that he is not worth less than everyone else in the room. It's quite a vicious circle.

I think it seems like there are a range of opinions on all the particulars and that no one has a “Snape is good, but Lupin is bad” attitude.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Have you seen him in “Help, I’m a fish?” I thought not.

I haven’t even heard of that film, but I looked it up and it’s animated.

I’m confused. . .

Wait! I get it! *slaps forehead* I've only gotten about 10 hours sleep in the last few days, so you'll have to excuse me for being a bit slow.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Snape reminds me of a university teacher that I had during my first year at university. He was my literature teacher. Half way through the term, I had written an essay analyzing some novel, and I went to his office for advice. He read it and totally ridiculed what I’d written, and ended up telling me that I’d fail if I didn’t read more. Luckily we also had another literature teacher, and I showed the essay to her for a second opinion. She was much more fair, and pointed out the strong and weak points so that I could improve it. At the next class, the first literature teacher (“Snape”) further humiliated me by saying to the whole class in a voice dripping with sarcasm (very Snape-esque) that some students (looking at me) seem to think that it’s not necessary to study. (I had actually studied.) I was very close to quitting the whole class, and it caused me to hate literary analysis for years – until I found Harry Potter and this forum. The exam time came, and the teacher did his worst thing yet: He actually bet with another member of staff that I would fail the exam! Thank Merlin for anonymous evaluation: For the exam, I got the best mark of the whole class. (1.7 on a scale from 1.0 to 6.0). I met the teacher by the notice board where the exam results were. I said to him: You didn’t expect this, did you? And he said: No, I did not expect this.
Anyway, I still hate this teacher, and his humiliation did not cause me to learn his subject better, on the contrary, it almost caused me to quit, and it made me hate his subject. Though I did not think of it as “bullying” as such, only as unfair treatment.

Your description does make him sound very like Snape, except I would guess you’re more competent at literature than Neville is at Potions.

So, I’m curious. . .if you viewed him only as unfair, but not a bully, what is the difference that makes you view Snape as a bully?

[thestralgrin]

Originally Posted by subtle science

At any rate, offering again my apologies for anyone who found my ideas too biased................

Absolutely, no need to apologise Subtle - I think it's probably good for all of us to get reminded of things like that every now & then - keeps things in perspective.

Originally Posted by Potency

Which is a good thing, I think, he couldn't do what he has to do if he was Mr. Goody-two-shoes.

He'd be nauseating if he was like that - more irritating than Lockhart

[silver ink pot]

I've been offline almost all day ~ we are on Fall Break and the weather is lovely - so I don't know what everyone is apologizing for, but I'm not going to.

It's always fine to play Devil's Advocate and throw out the opposite view. I do it myself quite often. I just don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to change their views because they usually won't.

As far as Lupin goes: JKR has said that Lupin was finally a teacher she liked, and she also said her children wouldn't have been allowed to have any of the teachers at Hogwarts! That includes McGonagall, Sprout, and Hagrid, and everyone else, except Lupin.

But I'm pretty sure she realizes that "likable" characters are not always the most dramatic, and thus, Snape is the Half-Blood Prince with a book named after him. I'll admit I like him as a character, but I realize that some people on the forum despise him and some people adore him in a different way.

As a character, Snape is difficult to defend sometimes, but I definitely don't see him as a "bully" exactly, but a tough teacher who is hard to please. I've had teachers and professors like him, and I've had teachers like Umbridge who really were "sadistic."

My father-in-law was a science teacher for 33 years, and he was definitely tough and never minced words, for which he sometimes got into trouble. Lots of students were frightened of him, but I often meet ex-students who remember him fondly. Some were even inspired by him to choose science as a career.

I think once Umbridge came to the school, it cast Snape in a totally different light. She is a character of intense cruelty, yet she actually seems more familiar as a bureaucrat than Snape down in his dungeon.

Yet, Snape never gives cruel punishments, but really muggle-like punishments such as copying cards or cleaning tables and bedpans. He's like someone who has been in the military (a good "Roman" analogy). He's stoical, and he expects the students to respect him and get on with things.

One thing I admire about Snape's teaching is that he is "involved" in the classroom. He mingles with the students even though he doesn't say anything, and he notices what is going on most of the time.

It's true he treats Harry and Neville ~ and Hermione ~ differently than the other students, or at least he seems to single them out in Harry's view. However, we are shown over and over that they deserve some of what he says. Harry really does throw a firework into Crabbe's cauldron. Hermione really does steal from the ingredients cabinet. Neville really is dreadful at potions. Ron really is cheeky and rude.

It's true that Snape tries to get Harry and Ron expelled in CoS. But now that we know he has a "spy connection" to the Malfoy family, should we be surprised? Like Dobby, he knew something bad might happen that year because Malfoy or Draco may have told him something. Yes, he threatens the boys with expulsion for arriving in a stolen car that crashed into a tree, but is that so hard to believe? In the real world, they probably would have been expelled right away.

And I truly believe Snape's motives might have been just as "good" as Dobby's. Dobby tries to hit Harry with a rogue blodger so he'll go home before the basilisk can get him. That isn't very nice, but Dobby means well.

Snape tries to expell him at the beginning of the year, and when Dumbledore says no, he "looks as if Christmas had been cancelled." Like all things Snapean, you can take that to mean he was sorry Harry was going to be in danger, and not the other way around. And . . . Mrs. Weasley says the exact same thing to Ron - she threatens to bring him home if he doesn't stop doing things.

[IrishFaerie]

[quote=silver ink pot]I think once Umbridge came to the school, it cast Snape in a totally different light. QUOTE]

Exactly! Umbridge is a portrait of a truly evil teacher. In comparison to her, Snape is nearly as nurturing as Professor Sprout!

Snape gives mostly Gryffindors a hard time. Honestly, do we think that McGonagall is much more kind to Slytherins in her classes? I don't think so. They're both examples of tough love, and as hwyla was saying earlier, this attitude seems to be common in English boarding schools. They're both pretty bada$s. They can be unfair in some cases but, when necessary, they always have their students' backs.

[eVaNeScEnCe]

[quote=IrishFaerie]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Snape gives mostly Gryffindors a hard time. Honestly, do we think that McGonagall is much more kind to Slytherins in her classes? I don't think so. They're both examples of tough love, and as hwyla was saying earlier, this attitude seems to be common in English boarding schools. They're both pretty bada$s. They can be unfair in some cases but, when necessary, they always have their students' backs.

And even then, his animosity is mostly geared to the trio and Neville. We've never seen him be outwardly cruel to any other Gryffindor. And even in that case, the hostility is generally instigated by the student --at least in Harry's case. Most of the times Snape is cruel to him is when Harry is caught doing something wrong-at least in Snape's eyes.

Heck, he didn't even dock points or scold Parvati when she asked a question about the inferi without raising her hand.

Honestly, besides the Harry filter, I have yet to read Snape truly be depicted as the professor from h*ll. Is he really? Sure he commands respect, but I don't think half so many students are as fearful of him, otherwise we'd have heard the complaints by now. When he was first introduced in PS, students commented on his obsession with the DADA post, but I don't think any other negative adjectives were ascribed to him. (Or I could be wrong, I haven't read the book in years).

[silver ink pot]

Evanescence: Ron tells Harry in Book One after the first class that Snape gives Fred and George a hard time, too. So what does that tell us? That is really has nothing to do with the "Famous Harry Potter Trio" and everything to do with people who might not be living up to their potential or goofing off too much.

Also, just as Harry reminds Snape of James, Fred and George may also remind him of his tormentors, James and Sirius. That makes sense in light of Hagrid's comment that James and Sirius were like the Weasley twins.

IrishFaerie: While I wouldn't call Snape "nurturing," I would say that he actually teaches his subject well enough to get his students through OWLs and NEWTs. Also, he never flunks Harry or Ron, which a truly vindictive teacher would do in his place.

[IrishFaerie]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

While I wouldn't call Snape "nurturing," I would say that he actually teaches his subject well enough to get his students through OWLs and NEWTs.

Oh, I wouldn't really call Snape nurturing either! I was making a joke-y exaggeration. Maybe I should have added a few goofy smilies to my post to get the point across better?

Evanescence: I agree, I definitely do not think of Snape as the teacher from h*ll. I have not read PS in quite awhile either, so I have forgotten a lot of the initial reaction to Snape. I just thought that he was notorious for being less favorable to Gryffindors in general, but the readers see mostly his unfairness toward the trio & Neville because that is what is relevant. It is quite possible that I am wrong though!

[Potency]

Doesn't Bill also dislike Snape? I remember Ginny commenting on it as if that settled everything, which is such an adoring little sister thing to do, but anyway. I'm so bad at dates, but I'm assuming both Bill, as a student, and Snape, as a professor, started Hogwarts around the same time. And Bill obviously had Snape as a professor up until the highest level of potions that he took, whatever that may be, and also knows Snape from the Order. I wonder if Bill is harboring any negative feelings for Snape from when he had him as a professor, or if he just doesnt' like Snape as an adult.

Ron also makes the comment about the way Snape looks at them when he sees them at Grimmuald Place. I wonder HOW Snape is looking at them. I can't imagine him sneering at them in front of their parents...heck with the Harry filter, now I'm wondering about the Weasley filter!!

[grrliz]

Originally Posted by IrishFaerie

Snape gives mostly Gryffindors a hard time. Honestly, do we think that McGonagall is much more kind to Slytherins in her classes? I don't think so. They're both examples of tough love, and as hwyla was saying earlier, this attitude seems to be common in English boarding schools. They're both pretty bada$s. They can be unfair in some cases but, when necessary, they always have their students' backs.

The Gryffindors in Harry's year don't take Transfiguration with the Slytherins, so we don't know how McGonagall reacts to them in comparison. [Actually, who are the Slytherins in her NEWT class and how does she treat them?] She certainly rescues Malfoy from Mad-Eye Moody in GoF, though. [I think the only time that we see Transfiguration doubled up with another house is when Ginny's class takes it with the Ravenclaws in HBP.] Other than that, the only real distaste McGonagall displays for Slytherins is in terms of the Quidditch Cup, and I think that has a lot more to do with her intense love of the sport and her ongoing friendly rivalry with Snape than it does with actually being unfair to the Slytherins.


Er, just a reminder to the thread at large: this is a Snape discussion thread, not the Alan Rickman appreciation thread*, i.e. while random links to amusing pictures of Rickman as Snape are fun (similing, even!), they should not be the only thing you post in a given response, nor should the Rickman discussion take over the actual topic at hand. This sort of thing (posting of random links, fan art, and images) got the Lupin threads closed down a while back, and I imagine you'll want to avoid that same fate.

*There are two related threads: Alan Rickman as Severus Snape and the Alan Rickman / Severus Snape Appreciation Thread.

[The Black Adder]

Originally Posted by SIP

It's true that Snape tries to get Harry and Ron expelled in CoS. But now that we know he has a "spy connection" to the Malfoy family, should we be surprised? Like Dobby, he knew something bad might happen that year because Malfoy or Draco may have told him something. Yes, he threatens the boys with expulsion for arriving in a stolen car that crashed into a tree, but is that so hard to believe? In the real world, they probably would have been expelled right away.

And I truly believe Snape's motives might have been just as "good" as Dobby's. Dobby tries to hit Harry with a rogue blodger so he'll go home before the basilisk can get him. That isn't very nice, but Dobby means well.

Snape tries to expell him at the beginning of the year, and when Dumbledore says no, he "looks as if Christmas had been cancelled." Like all things Snapean, you can take that to mean he was sorry Harry was going to be in danger, and not the other way around. And . . . Mrs. Weasley says the exact same thing to Ron - she threatens to bring him home if he doesn't stop doing things.

You know, I never saw the connection between Snape trying to get Harry expelled and the Dobby thing before. Good catch! Was it really only CoS where Snape says Harry should be expelled? I had the impression that he threatens it in other books also, but I could be wrong about that... Hmmmm

Originally Posted by Evanescence

And even then, his animosity is mostly geared to the trio and Neville. We've never seen him be outwardly cruel to any other Gryffindor. And even in that case, the hostility is generally instigated by the student --at least in Harry's case. Most of the times Snape is cruel to him is when Harry is caught doing something wrong-at least in Snape's eyes.

I think it is in PS/SS where we get the most accurate general picture of Snape. PS/SS US paperback, 138-141:

"He swept around in his long black cloak...criticizing almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like."

Ron kicked him behind their cauldron. "Don't push it," he muttered, "I've heard Snape can turn very nasty."

Also as SIP already mentioned, Ron tells Harry, "Cheer up, Snape's always taking points off Fred and George."

And then when Ron and Harry are talking to Hagrid about Snape: "Hagrid, like Ron, told Harry not to worry about it, that Snape liked hardly any of the students."

What this tells me is that Snape is more of an equal opportunity "bully" or "tough teacher", depending on how one defines what he does. His snarky, hostile reactions didn't originate with Harry, Neville, or the Trio. And we learn that it is possible to get on his good side. His dislike is not absolute or unavoidable.

I think in the later books, we get more of a Harry-centered focus, though I don't believe that Snape's own focus, personality, or practises have changed any. If Harry and Neville seem to receive more of Snape's attention, it's true that they are struggling in the subject and require more attention! They both tend to do disruptive things (Harry more deliberately than Neville) which draws Snape's attention to them.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by The Black Adder

I think it is in PS/SS where we get the most accurate general picture of Snape. PS/SS US paperback, 138-141:

"He swept around in his long black cloak...criticizing almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like."

Ron kicked him behind their cauldron. "Don't push it," he muttered, "I've heard Snape can turn very nasty."

Also as SIP already mentioned, Ron tells Harry, "Cheer up, Snape's always taking points off Fred and George."

And then when Ron and Harry are talking to Hagrid about Snape: "Hagrid, like Ron, told Harry not to worry about it, that Snape liked hardly any of the students."

Thanks for posting these Black Adder! It does sound more even-handed or equal. Especially the 'everyone except Malfoy' - that would probably mean the Slytherins, too. I wonder if we don't need to look at how much Snape really favored Slyths or if that's more Harry-filter, too.

Maybe he only favors Draco? That would put a different spin on things. We should take a look at the times Harry complains about Snape's Slytherin bias - I bet Draco is often in the middle. And as has been observed I think Draco is the only child he calls by his first name (not even the other Slyths) I'm not yet sure of what to make of his relationship with Draco.

I'm not sure I'm ready to think Snape knew Draco when he was growing up. Narcissa's comments in Spinner's End, about Snape as Draco's favorite 'teacher', sound wrong for an old family friend. And yet Snape's protective of Draco and seems to have a more personal relationship with him than with his other students (or at least is trying to make it seem that way to Draco.)

That favorite 'teacher' comment is just so strange. Especially in the midst of Spinner's End, when we begin to feel that there's more than just a teacher-parent relationship between Snape and the Malfoys. I can't decide if they're friends from Snape's first year at Hogwarts (Lapdog) til now or whether there were breaks in their association and it's really more of a 'scratch my back and I your's' situation.

Narcissa seems to know Snape very well - but he's still defined as a teacher, albeit one VERY involved in his student's life and family. Did Snape and Lucius not see each other much after VMs fall (different social circle after all) and only become reacquainted when Draco started Hogwarts?

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by The Black Adder

You know, I never saw the connection between Snape trying to get Harry expelled and the Dobby thing before. Good catch! Was it really only CoS where Snape says Harry should be expelled? I had the impression that he threatens it in other books also, but I could be wrong about that... Hmmmm

I'll check tomorrow!

Originally Posted by The Black Adder

I think it is in PS/SS where we get the most accurate general picture of Snape. PS/SS US paperback, 138-141:

"He swept around in his long black cloak...criticizing almost everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like."

Ron kicked him behind their cauldron. "Don't push it," he muttered, "I've heard Snape can turn very nasty."

Also as SIP already mentioned, Ron tells Harry, "Cheer up, Snape's always taking points off Fred and George."

And then when Ron and Harry are talking to Hagrid about Snape: "Hagrid, like Ron, told Harry not to worry about it, that Snape liked hardly any of the students."

What this tells me is that Snape is more of an equal opportunity "bully" or "tough teacher", depending on how one defines what he does. His snarky, hostile reactions didn't originate with Harry, Neville, or the Trio. And we learn that it is possible to get on his good side. His dislike is not absolute or unavoidable.

I think in the later books, we get more of a Harry-centered focus, though I don't believe that Snape's own focus, personality, or practises have changed any. If Harry and Neville seem to receive more of Snape's attention, it's true that they are struggling in the subject and require more attention! They both tend to do disruptive things (Harry more deliberately than Neville) which draws Snape's attention to them.

Thanks for the quotes!

In PoA, before the Time Turner episode when Snape is talking to Fudge, Snape tells Fudge he tries to treat Harry like everyone else, and I believe that. It's only through the filter that Harry thinks he is singled out.

[mdeligan]

Originally Posted by thestralgrin

- I'm wondering if he may have overheard or seen something when out in the forest, if Snape has gone there more than once before to get some privacy, it's possible Hagrid could have caught him out at a personally revealing moment.

For me, there is something appealing about Severus going to the forest to engage in confidential discussions. I think we have only read of two scenes where he does this - book 1 and book 6 - goes to the forest for private and heated discussions, but if this is his modus operandi, then how does this particular setting add to his character? Here are a few of my thoughts.

First, the Forbidden Forest is strongly connected to Hagrid throughout the series. I think the neutral, if not cordial, relations that Severus has with Hagrid implies his ease with all things associated with nature. And to me, Hagrid represents Nature and the positive side of animals - openness, loyalty, takes pleasure in the simple things, etc. Hagrid is always supportive of Severus, never lets the trio speak ill of him. I've mentioned before that Severus probably appreciates Hagrid for his honesty - in what he says and about who he is. This openness doesn't necessarily make Hagrid (or the animals in the forest) less dangerous, but they don't engage in deception and cruelty like humans do. Only the centaurs, who are half-beast and half-human, deviate from this natural straightforwardness, probably due to their human side - they have just enough to engage in the bewildering human psychology of ostracization, discrimination, and vague communication. I sometimes laugh at the scenes with Harry and Buckbeak - it is like Buckbeak is a surrogate for Severus: look him in the eye, be polite, follow his lead...do all of this and you will be fine. Disobey the rules and pay the consequences!

Of course the forest is not a romantic, idealistic setting - it is very dangerous and you can easily be killed. I think this quality also helps to bring out the darker shades of Severus' character. The discussions he has in the forest are of dangerous topics and they hint at his exposure to this danger, which stems from his past as a Death Eater and his efforts to spy for the Order. But the danger of humans is not the same as that which comes from the forest. It is in the forest that Severus goes to have private conversations which touch upon matters that others cannot hear about because they would expose some sort of truth about the participants. In the forest (Nature), you can talk about things openly in a way that you cannot at Hogwarts or Hogsmeade (society). In nature, you can be open.

Another point of interest to me about the Forbidden Forest and Severus, is that it seems to be a home for the homeless, for the unwanted, for the bizarre: the Weasley's enchanted car, Grawp, Aragog, etc. They make a place of their own in the Forbidden Forest. And we see that Hagrid, Dumbledore and Severus are the characters who are most comfortable with the Forbidden Forest. Aside for Hogwarts, they really are not able to fit into the magical community - Dumbledore and his phenomenal intelligence, Severus and his _______?, and Hagrid with his jovial enthusiasm for all things wild and dangerous. Under Dumbledore, Hogwarts has become an extension of this aspect of the Forbidden Forest. I once joked about it being more of a witness protection program than a school.

I think the thestrals of the forest can also enter this discussion of Severus and the forest - the ties to death and its effect on a person. Rowling answered a question about Severus being able to see these creatures and she specifically noted that he has seen some horrible things as a DE (she didn't say whether he did anything). The thestrals are scary, kind of ghoulish, but they are helpful and not dangerous (despite the myths about them). Their appearance reminds me of death - scary to look at and be near, but it is a part of life. Those who've seen death can manage the thestrals - can use them for travelling - as long as they are willing to accept them.

Ok, so that is my Snape-centric view of the Forbidden Forest. Obviously Severus goes there for privacy, but I think some interesting insights can be made by looking at it from another angle.

Originally Posted by subtle science

(Hey--maybe that's really what they were arguing about in the Forest! "Call me Albus" "You expect too much" "You said you would, and that's all there is to it")

It is so funny because there is a lot truth in this - I doubt anything short of the Imperius Curse could make Severus say "Albus" and even that he could block. He would probably find it easier to say "Voldemort" or even "Tom" than to say Albus.

Originally Posted by Potency

I was also surprised by "Eileen Prince" because I thought if Snape's name was Severus, than she might have a fancy, unusual name as well.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Yeah, but if Snape learned his Dark curses from his grandparents, and his grandparents were interested in the Dark Arts, don't you think they'd have given Eileen a more fancy name? I mean, Eileen.

I see nothing wrong with the name Eileen. It is not that uncommon. And I'm sure that in retrospect, their names were chosen for a reason that ties in with Severus' character. That their names have positive meanings can't be accident. Either it is some sort of joke - for Severus to have miserable parents with "good" names - or they foreshadow more to come about their characters.

Originally Posted by BookWhizzbee

And besides, Snape would know all about people who try to be funny and engage in planned disrespect, he is teaching the Weasley twins.

My imagination cannot do this scene justice. What a nightmare! They are intentionally dangerous and the "fun" of baiting their Potions teacher would never grow old.

[Potency]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

In PoA, before the Time Turner episode when Snape is talking to Fudge, Snape tells Fudge he tries to treat Harry like everyone else, and I believe that. It's only through the filter that Harry thinks he is singled out.

I think Snape inadvertantly set up Harry to think this way from day one though...he singled Harry out, so from then on, Harry was super sensitive to what Snape did to him. I think there are times when Snape doesn't treat Harry any different, yet Harry feels like he is. But I also think there are times when Harry IS being treated differently. Maybe not by action alone, but by all that eye contact. I think as much Snape wants everyone else to treat Harry like he's just one of the crowd, this becomes harder and harder for Snape to do, because of who Harry is...not just James and Lily's son, but the boy who lived and subsequently became linked to Voldemort, just like Snape is.

[IrishFaerie]

Great quotes, The Black Adder!

Originally Posted by mdeligan

I sometimes laugh at the scenes with Harry and Buckbeak - it is like Buckbeak is a surrogate for Severus: look him in the eye, be polite, follow his lead...do all of this and you will be fine. Disobey the rules and pay the consequences!

So true! And wonderfully ironic considering Buckbeak loves Sirius and Harry, and gives Malfoy a much deserved beat down-- obviously the complete opposite of Snape!

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

In PoA, before the Time Turner episode when Snape is talking to Fudge, Snape tells Fudge he tries to treat Harry like everyone else, and I believe that. It's only through the filter that Harry thinks he is singled out.

Originally Posted by Potency

I think Snape inadvertantly set up Harry to think this way from day one though...he singled Harry out, so from then on, Harry was super sensitive to what Snape did to him.

Both of you guys have good points. In general, Snape does try to treat Harry just like every other student. I think JKR made Snape single Harry out on that first day so that the reader would buy into the Harry filter. That is where it becomes not only the Harry filter, but the reader filter as well-- because Snape appeared to have it in for Harry in that first lesson, he will subsequently always have it in for Harry.

[silver ink pot]

Mdeligan! I love your analysis of Snape and the Forest!

Originally Posted by mdeligan

First, the Forbidden Forest is strongly connected to Hagrid throughout the series. I think the neutral, if not cordial, relations that Severus has with Hagrid implies his ease with all things associated with nature. And to me, Hagrid represents Nature and the positive side of animals - openness, loyalty, takes pleasure in the simple things, etc. Hagrid is always supportive of Severus, never lets the trio speak ill of him. I've mentioned before that Severus probably appreciates Hagrid for his honesty - in what he says and about who he is. This openness doesn't necessarily make Hagrid (or the animals in the forest) less dangerous, but they don't engage in deception and cruelty like humans do. Only the centaurs, who are half-beast and half-human, deviate from this natural straightforwardness, probably due to their human side - they have just enough to engage in the bewildering human psychology of ostracization, discrimination, and vague communication.

Fantastic! Bravo!!!

Originally Posted by mdeligan

Of course the forest is not a romantic, idealistic setting - it is very dangerous and you can easily be killed. I think this quality also helps to bring out the darker shades of Severus' character. The discussions he has in the forest are of dangerous topics and they hint at his exposure to this danger, which stems from his past as a Death Eater and his efforts to spy for the Order. But the danger of humans is not the same as that which comes from the forest. It is in the forest that Severus goes to have private conversations which touch upon matters that others cannot hear about because they would expose some sort of truth about the participants. In the forest (Nature), you can talk about things openly in a way that you cannot at Hogwarts or Hogsmeade (society). In nature, you can be open.

I've always thought Snape was really brave to go into the forest! But Harry does it too - another parallel.

Originally Posted by mdeligan

Another point of interest to me about the Forbidden Forest and Severus, is that it seems to be a home for the homeless, for the unwanted, for the bizarre: the Weasley's enchanted car, Grawp, Aragog, etc. They make a place of their own in the Forbidden Forest. And we see that Hagrid, Dumbledore and Severus are the characters who are most comfortable with the Forbidden Forest. Aside for Hogwarts, they really are not able to fit into the magical community - Dumbledore and his phenomenal intelligence, Severus and his _______?, and Hagrid with his jovial enthusiasm for all things wild and dangerous. Under Dumbledore, Hogwarts has become an extension of this aspect of the Forbidden Forest. I once joked about it being more of a witness protection program than a school.

I love it!

Originally Posted by mdeligan

I think the thestrals of the forest can also enter this discussion of Severus and the forest - the ties to death and its effect on a person. Rowling answered a question about Severus being able to see these creatures and she specifically noted that he has seen some horrible things as a DE (she didn't say whether he did anything). The thestrals are scary, kind of ghoulish, but they are helpful and not dangerous (despite the myths about them). Their appearance reminds me of death - scary to look at and be near, but it is a part of life. Those who've seen death can manage the thestrals - can use them for travelling - as long as they are willing to accept them.

I love the thestrals! A "perception" of death is one of those archetypal and universal experiences that tie people together. I love the scene in which Hermione says she wishes she could see them, and Harry says, "Do you really?" (A very Snape-worthy comment that brings her to her senses.)

Originally Posted by mdeligan

I see nothing wrong with the name Eileen. It is not that uncommon. And I'm sure that in retrospect, their names were chosen for a reason that ties in with Severus' character. That their names have positive meanings can't be accident. Either it is some sort of joke - for Severus to have miserable parents with "good" names - or they foreshadow more to come about their characters.

As I wrote before, I love the name Eileen! I just remembered the song "Come on Eileen" by Dexy's Midnight Runners from the Big 80's!
http://www.songfacts.com/lyrics.php?findsong=2401

I found another "Toby" reference, harking back to last night's conversation about Tobias Snape. In Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night" there is a character named "Sir Toby Belch" who is good humored in contrast with another character named "Malvolio." I'm no Shakespearean authority, but that sounds too close to be a coincidence.

Also, it is very interesting to me that the whole thing takes place during the Christmas season, and Sir Toby makes a joke about Taurus and Capricorn - he says that legs are ruled by Taurus, so they should "caper" (meaning dance). He was wrong about the Taurus connection, but Capricorn is supposed to rule the knees.

One other thing - The play's setting is "Illyria," which is an ancient name for Albania. Ah, Albania: Slytherin vacationland.

Twelfth Night . . . Sir Toby is actually a sharp, witty person who, even when he is drunk, is capable of making a good pun or of creating an ingenious and humorous plot complication. For example, he appreciates Maria not for her looks or for romantic matters, but because she is capable of contriving such a good joke against Malvolio. We are not surprised, at the end of the play, when he marries her. Sir Toby's character is similar to an earlier comic character of Shakespeare's, Sir John Falstaff. Both characters share many of the same qualities. For example, both of them are given to excessive drinking and eating, both love a good prank, and both enjoy harassing serious-minded people like Malvolio. Thus, while Sir Toby is a knight, he is still a rather corrupt individual. After all, the only reason he keeps Sir Andrew Aguecheek around is to gull him out of his money. The fact that he can tease and play jokes on Sir Andrew is secondary to his primary purpose of using Sir Andrew's money to continue drinking. He is indeed guilty of misusing his niece's house and of abusing her servants; yet in spite of all of his faults, Sir Toby is, perhaps, Shakespeare's most delightful comic creation, after Sir John Falstaff.

Originally Posted by Potency

I think Snape inadvertantly set up Harry to think this way from day one though...he singled Harry out, so from then on, Harry was super sensitive to what Snape did to him. I think there are times when Snape doesn't treat Harry any different, yet Harry feels like he is. But I also think there are times when Harry IS being treated differently. Maybe not by action alone, but by all that eye contact. I think as much Snape wants everyone else to treat Harry like he's just one of the crowd, this becomes harder and harder for Snape to do, because of who Harry is...not just James and Lily's son, but the boy who lived and subsequently became linked to Voldemort, just like Snape is.

I really liked the fact that Snape made eye contact with Harry on the first day of DADA class! It just seemed significant, though it was hard to know what Snape was thinking.

[mdeligan]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I love your analysis of Snape and the Forest!

Thank you! Do you have any suggestions for this blank: "Severus and his _______?" because I'm at a loss. I've seen the word "snarkiness" used a lot but I'm not sure if this captures it. Hmmmm....what word captures that "shove a bezoar down their throats" aura?

I guess I should add Luna to the list of characters who show no fear of the forest. She certainly shows no fear of the thestrals (or death). And she fits in as well as Severus or Hagrid, which means not a lot. I really want a scene with Luna and Severus. It makes me think of TBA's essay and to imagine a scene between superego and intuition. Severus could criticize the packaging, but not the content. For all of Luna's quirks, she is accurate in her reading of characters. What wonderfully blunt statement would she blurt out to Severus? I suppose she wouldn't, though. She is respectful towards teachers, so unless he directly challenged the Rotfang conspiracy, she would probably keep to herself.

[thestralgrin]

Originally Posted by mdeligan

Thank you! Do you have any suggestions for this blank: "Severus and his _______?" because I'm at a loss. I've seen the word "snarkiness" used a lot but I'm not sure if this captures it. Hmmmm....what word captures that "shove a bezoar down their throats" aura? .

Hmm... 'bluntness', 'matter-of-factness', 'plain-talk'?

Originally Posted by mdeligan

it is like Buckbeak is a surrogate for Severus: look him in the eye, be polite, follow his lead...do all of this and you will be fine. Disobey the rules and pay the consequences!

Wasnt there a line somewhere (in PoA?) stating that trying to out-stare Snape was like trying to stare down a hippogriff?

Originally Posted by mdeligan

What wonderfully blunt statement would she blurt out to Severus? I suppose she wouldn't, though. She is respectful towards teachers,

- or she might matter-of-factly say something so heart-rending in it's implications, that Snape will be mortally embarrassed - and wish he could just crawl off to a nice quiet cobweb in a corner somewhere for a week or two.

Originally Posted by mdeligan

so unless he directly challenged the Rotfang conspiracy, she would probably keep to herself.

... probably one of the reasons that he doesnt challenge her statements more often, is to avoid the risk of her replying by matter-of-factly saying something about him so heart-rending in it's implications, that Snape will be mortally embarrassed and ... (you get the picture )