Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[atschpe]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I don't quite see it like this. I think it has more to do with respect than knowledge. Hagrid is repectful of creatures, which is how he survives. He appreciates the danger, but circumvents it with respect. He was protected from Aragog's children because he had a mutual respect with Aragog. He is respectful toward the centaurs and toward hippogriffs. This is what Hagrid teaches Harry. Harry learns to be respectful toward these creatures as well, so Harry doesn't have as much fear of the Forest. Ron seems to have less natural respect for the nature of things--I think this is shown in his reaction to finding out Lupin is a werewolf, even though Lupin has never tried to hurt him. Umbridge and Draco both try to use other creatures for their benefit (Umbridge ordering the centaurs and Draco threatening the B&B shopkeeper with Greyback). They fear the Forest because they can't control the creatures within. Regarding Snape, we only have him entering the Forest on a few occasions, but it's not described that he seems to fear it. I rather liked the idea that he took Quirrell there for their discussion to unnerve him.

I see what you mean. Perhaps my choice of "knowledge" isn't that approriate. To me the actual knowing how to behave around those creatures is crucial, hence my using the noun knowledge, but you're right respect encompasses this as well so it is a combination of the two (Harry could be as respectful as he likes, but if he doesn't know how to approach a Hippogriff it won't help him much). Thanks for point that out.

Originally Posted by cathrakka

Why is it that Hermione walks out of Trelawney's class when Sybil insults her. Yet snape insults her over and over and she never picks him up on it. I guess the obvious answer would be that she doesn't care much about Devination, where as she can't very well drop out of potions. But she has shown time and time again that she does indeed have the ability to stand up for herself.

There is indeed a huge difference. She sees Trelawney as a definte fraud, but she has nothing to put against Snape's knowledge. In potions she can check her progress by what is stated in the book, yet divination can only be checked against if the outcome is right (or the teacher stating the correctness), I don't think she has the patience or the belief to work like this.
All the more, Divination isn't a basic subject, but a chosen one, which means that you can drop it, whilst Potions belongs to the basic curriculum.

Originally Posted by mdgelian

I think the interpretations of the white stag in Harry's dream in PoA are quite interesting, but it seems to have more to do with the Marauders and specifically his father than Severus. I'm not sure that the moderators will think that the discussion of this dream relates directly to Severus and the development of his character. But if you can tie the symbolism of the white stag to Severus, then go for it! The idea of the Marauders as animals in the forest is a plausible topic, but again I'm doubtful that this is the place to discuss it since Severus only encountered the werewolf at Hogwarts and that was not in the forest. It should probably be pursued on another thread.

You might be right. Perhaps it's time for a thread on the forest? You've sure got many ideas on that subject and I'd also be willing to join in…

[thestralgrin]

Originally Posted by Silver ink pot

I still see Snape as a "parental" figure in that scene. It's just that he is suddenly dealing with an angry young juvenile delinquent, instead of the "smarmy" prefect of a year before. It's shocking, but I don't think Draco sees Snape as a brother-figure, as much as just another adult telling him what to do. He's overloaded with parent-figures.

It would been interesting to think of how Draco's view of Snape may change after the Sectumsempra incident - or after the events on the Astronomy tower ...

[The Black Adder]

I tried to write out some comments last night, but my brain was too sluggish, so I'll see if it works any better now…

Just one more thought on Trelawney. I originally ventured that she might be okay in the forest because I think she represents Synchronicity, having a connection with the Beyond or Collective Unconscious, or with wherever one would like to imagine she receives her prophecies from. She isn't really a fraud, but she doesn't realize it. So she masks her own insecurities with the Persona and trappings of someone who is constantly "Seeing", which only makes herself look ridiculous. I'm not sure what this tells us, but perhaps if she were told the truth, and she could see both what she is and what she isn't, she might have more confidence and put on less "show". And maybe some of her colleagues might treat her with more respect. I don't know…

Milton was indeed a deeply profound-thinking fellow. The problem with the character of Satan in Paradise Lost is that he comes across to many readers as a tragic hero. He is depicted as an underdog who fights a more powerful enemy (God) against overwhelming odds, a "hopeless cause" indeed! Even in defeat he refuses to submit. His line as quoted in Star Trek is--"'Tis better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven." This kind of unconquerable spirit is very appealing to the rebel and free spirit in all of us. (One of the reasons that the marauders are so appealing, I daresay) As Subtle indicated, what we don't see, or what doesn't fully come across is the effect of Satan's evil, as well as God's goodness, in the lives of individuals.

I have to agree with Billywiggy that it isn't necessary to actually succumb to every temptation in order to become virtuous, but it is necessary to realize that one has the potential to fall. I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm not sure I agree with Milton. I appreciate his point that something isn't a true virtue that hasn't been tested, the difference between someone who is an innocent and someone who is actually virtuous because they choose to be. But I don't think that there is anyone on earth that is not been tested in some way or another. (offhand, I don't recall who Milton's target audience was, which might make a difference)

For example, I don't think it is necessary to lay in bed with someone of the opposite sex (as did Ghandi) in order to test one's morality. Purposely seeking out temptation is rather foolish, I think. The truth is that we all fall, even the best among us, in diverse ways, because we are all imperfect. But not all are tempted by the same thing. What's important is to come to recognize one's own personal weaknesses honestly, that one may guard against them or strive to overcome them. The "self-awareness" Subtle spoke of.

James, for example, did not have to be tempted by the Dark Arts or by Voldemort to have fallen to temptation. He fell every time he hexed or bullied someone, or humiliated Snape "because he could" or because it made him feel better and more powerful. I have my doubts from the so far scant evidence that James profoundly changed, although he may have come to some self-realization and made some initial improvements in his character. That is yet to see.

The failing of The Good Son in the Prodigal Son story was his lack of compassion for his brother. He had not been tempted to go off to the city and party, and his reward was to be his father's heir. And yet he was tempted by jealousy of his father's love for his wayward brother. Such a weakness could potentially lead to just as horrible a fall as his brother's, should the "good son" remain so hard-hearted, angry, and bitter.

Some of us have previously noticed similarities between young Severus Snape and "the good son". The idea of Snape following the Marauders around trying to catch them breaking the rules and get them into trouble, and a sort of continued "sibling rivalry" in the Snape-Sirius relationship, suggests that jealousy (that DD trusted or liked the marauders), anger and bitterness may have been factors in Snape's "fall". So it's interesting to see a kind of flip flop between Snape and Sirius in OotP, where Snape has become the Prodigal, come to his senses and come home, yet it is Sirius who is now jealous and unforgiving. Of course, Sirius has very little self-awareness, or compassion for others.

I wonder if this dynamic is what resonates about Draco for Snape. I keep going back to Harry and Draco's first meeting. What if Harry had handled their first meeting differently? Now yes, I realize there are few eleven year old boys who might have this kind of foresight. But hypothetically or theoretically, what if Harry's reply had not been quite so hostile? Draco said that he would help Harry associate with "the right sort." Harry's reply both dismissed his help and implied that, in Harry's opinion, Draco was not "the right sort". Harry was "just as bad", just as judgmental, as was Draco in that moment. What if instead, Harry could have replied something to the effect that Ron was his friend and if Draco could accept that, he could be his friend as well? Left the door open, or put the ball back in Draco's court, so to speak. Certainly people can be taught or shown better attitudes by friends rather than by enemies. I have a feeling that there was something of the Harry-Draco kind of beginning in the James-Snape rivalry.

The werewolf is a "Jekyll and Hyde" archetype that represents man's dual civilized and underlying bestial natures. Lupin is a character who recognizes what his weaknesses are and who has regret for the past. I agree with Chiev that he is also on a redemptive arc. I think he is a character meant to give Harry an example of someone who is consciously and realistically struggling with his problems. He doesn't always succeed, but he continues the struggle with his own nature. That in itself is success.

Sometimes it is succumbing to a major temptation that brings certain individuals to a place of humility where they can begin to have more understanding and compassion for others who have fallen and struggled back. I think it will take a major "Fall" for Harry to begin to have empathy and understanding for Snape. I think the more self-aware and honest we become, the less judgmental, because we realize that we all are in this struggle together.

I'm not sure I made my points very clear in this rambling piece, but I hope it is of some interest after the other good posts that were already made.

[subtle science]

Happy Birthday, The Black Adder!

Perhaps the biggest surprise about Milton's "Aeropagitica" is that it is an anti-censorship essay...not quite what one might expect from a hard-core Puritan. (Maybe a further lesson in judgments!) Milton's view is that "assuredly we bring not innocence into the world"--there are not many who are virtuous by means of not having been tested. One focus of his essay was to argue against those who would censor certain books as being too corrupting: Milton argues that not reading those books does not make one virtuous--one has to have one's ideas/beliefs challenged.

His Satan is fascinating--not for being the icon of a rebel, but for the misreading that classifies him as such. Milton's Satan is the great deceiver accurately portrayed: readers who fall for his charisma (for lack of a better word) fail to see the truth of his actions. Sounds rather Voldemort-esque...and rather suits the Marauders as well....

I also wonder about Harry--he came close to a realization of his own foibles in OotP, but he seemed to have passed by a real self-awareness...his insistence upon blaming Snape for Sirius' death was one of the main indications that he really didn't absorb any lessons about his own faulty reasoning and culpability. So--will he have such a revelation? I hope he does, because Harry is a bit annoying in his judgments in the novels--I really don't want to see him maintain that quality throughout the series. And a strong lesson in humility via a Fall would certainly provide even enough Drama for Chievrefueil!

Sirius and Lupin are interesting foils for each other. Sirius makes a tremendous error in judgment and reasoning, in his plan to use Pettigrew as the Secret Keeper. I've said before, long ago and elsewhere, that it seems to me that Sirius is the type of person who never failed at anything--even when he hit a rough patch (such as running away from his family), everything worked out to his advantage: he had the Potters, he had the money from his uncle. However, his one failure was a whopper: it leads to the death of his best friend...Yet--Sirius learns nothing from this error. He comes out on the other side of the epsiode the same as he went in. Lupin, although he does not make anything like a mistake of the same magnitude, nevertheless learns from his errors--it takes him a long time, until the end of PoA, but he absorbs the lessons and accepts his responsibility. Therefore, his character grows and changes in subtle ways.

Another 'therefore' is that Lupin can acknowledge Snape's abilities. He may overdo it a bit in PoA, coming very close to fawning when Snape delivers the Wolfsbane Potion...but I think JKR's point is that he goes overboard, in his attempt to make up for the past. It isn't realistic to think that that one encounter can compensate for years of hostilities--and, lo and behold, Lupin himself says just that in HBP, at Christmas. The idea is furthered in OotP, when he takes Harry aside and tells him that Snape is a 'superb Occlumens,' yet also very honestly gives a nod to the hostilities between Snape and Harry, urging Harry to put his feelings aside (hey, Lupin: do you realize what a Snape-like thing that was to say?!).

In contrast, Sirius can never get past age 16, at best. He denigrates Snape: he made his judgment of Snape long ago and he will never change it. Sirius, throughout the books, makes snap judgments...and shows no ability to change his mind. He continues to behave as the One Who Never Failed. His arc goes in the opposite direction from Lupin's--in GoF, Sirius does give some benefit of the doubt to Snape: he doesn't beleive that Snape himself ever became a DE, although Snape was well acquainted, according to Sirius (aside: Sirius is one of the few characters that I always feel have to use that disclaimer with), with classmates who all became DEs. Once he finds out that Snape was a DE--well, Sirius alters the facts to 'Snape is a DE' and treats him with complete disrespect and loathing. Nobody can change Sirius' mind, and the idea that Snape actually might have any abilities doesn't even cross Sirius' radar, as Sirius demonstrates in the kitchen scene at 12GP.

Snape's character is fascinating in all of this, as JKR shrouds his reactions in mystery. He clearly suspects Lupin of being just as he was years ago, when they meet again in PoA--and he finds his suspicions confirmed--yet: he makes the Potion for Lupin, and there's no specific evidence stating that it's under orders. It certainly wasn't under orders that he deliver it to Lupin personally....As for Sirius: same initial reaction. Yet Snape acquieces to Dumbledore in GoF and makes the gesture of shaking Sirius' hand. By OotP, the two have obviously been face-to-face, and Snape knows exactly what Sirius thinks of him--it's no different than 20 years ago. Never mind shaking hands--Snape won't even linger in the house to eat...and it's no-holds-barred in the kitchen scene....But--since the books are from Harry's point of view, and Harry never talks to Snape as he does to Lupin and Sirius, there's no knowing what Snape's actual train of thought is....

A hint of Snape's self-awareness does come with his attempt to save Draco--the fact that Snape bothers to argue with the boy says obviously what he thinks of the path to being a DE and following Voldemort. And I agree with silver ink pot: I see Snape as being more like a parent in his confrontation with Draco...although, even moreso, like someone who believes he is Draco's favorite teacher and therefore who has an influence others lack. What he finds is a rebellious, obnoxious, self-willed teenager.......

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by atschpe

You might be right. Perhaps it's time for a thread on the forest? You've sure got many ideas on that subject and I'd also be willing to join in…

Serpentine wants to start the Celtic Mythology thread again. We just discovered that the original has been archived during the Spoiler period. We were thinking that the forest imagery would fit really well on that thread, given the worship of trees and forest animals by the Celts. So if you and mdeligan want to, you can post your thoughts there.

Originally Posted by thestralgrin

It would been interesting to think of how Draco's view of Snape may change after the Sectumsempra incident - or after the events on the Astronomy tower ...

I would love to know what Draco will think now, as well as Harry after he thinks about it more. For all of Harry's dreams, he never seems to have a strong "message" dream the way some of us do when we are uncertain. I wish he would have a dream over the summer in which he deals with Dumbledore, the Tower, Snape, and Draco - surely his unconscious could give him a clue.

Originally Posted by The Black Adder

Some of us have previously noticed similarities between young Severus Snape and "the good son". The idea of Snape following the Marauders around trying to catch them breaking the rules and get them into trouble, and a sort of continued "sibling rivalry" in the Snape-Sirius relationship, suggests that jealousy (that DD trusted or liked the marauders), anger and bitterness may have been factors in Snape's "fall". So it's interesting to see a kind of flip flop between Snape and Sirius in OotP, where Snape has become the Prodigal, come to his senses and come home, yet it is Sirius who is now jealous and unforgiving. Of course, Sirius has very little self-awareness, or compassion for others.

Great post!

And Happy Birthday, Black Adder!

[Serpentine]

Just on a quick note: I've just started the 2nd version of the Celtic Mythology thread - with pictures this time, and additional suggestions for HBP (the Vow, the cave, Inferi, significance of the Astronomy tower as location for the killing vs. the usual underground duels...). Also interesting: antlered "god of the animals" Cernunnos and the ram-headed serpent at his side (James/Snape, or snakey leanings?), Bran's reviving cauldron and cauldrons in general. Our Potions Master is bound to be important! (And TBA!)

EDIT: Oops, and already been told that my thread is a duplicate of the freshly created thread by SIP. That's what I get when my computer commits suicide in the wrong moment...

[eVaNeScEnCe]

Oh dear, I sense a collective dislike toward poor Sirius.
True, the man has a lot of faults but I think we should give him some credit. He did say one of the wisest quotes in the books: [paraphrase]
"If you want to see what a man is like, take a look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."

True, he didn't follow up on that philosophy himself, but all in all, I don't think he's more faulty than our dear Severus. I think they both share their bouts of irrational prejudices, biases, and judgements.

[Tatiana]

Of course, Sirius has very little self-awareness, or compassion for others.

And of course Snape had a TONE of them.
Oh never mind willing to die for James, Lily and Harry, becoming an Animagus for Lupin, starving for Harry in the cave, comforting him after Cedric' death, risking his life/or soul for him again and again understanding his helplessness at the beginning of OOTP, comforting Molly after the boggart scene (after her infamous Azkaban jab)-really never mind. Sirius has very little self-awareness or compassion for others. Oh- and I would LOVE to see Snape' reaction if Wealeys twins had adressed to him the way they adressed to Sirius after their father' accident. For sure he would have offered them Butterbeer.

Yet Snape acquieces to Dumbledore in GoF and makes the gesture of shaking Sirius' hand.

If I remember correctly the gesture was mutual.

Sirius makes a tremendous error in judgment and reasoning, in his plan to use Pettigrew as the Secret Keeper.

And did not stop feeling guilty about James and Lily deaths till the end of his life.

By OotP, the two have obviously been face-to-face, and Snape knows exactly what Sirius thinks of him--it's no different than 20 years ago.

And of course Snape' perception of Sirius has changed in spades.

One more thing- besides of all theories about Snape being "Dumbledore man through and through", and only fulfilling his wishes by killing him- till the book 7 those are only theories and there are many of them. And now all we have is Snape who murdered Dumbledore when he was completly helpless and run with DE's. How exactly Sirius was wrong about him? It appeared in the end that Order' trust was based only on Dumbledore' word- and only on that, not because they believe that Snape indeed reformed. Probably Sirius was the only one honest/sincere/rude/whatever enough to say aloud things they all have in mind.

where Snape has become the Prodigal, come to his senses and come home

Again people may believe that Snape "saw the light" or whatever but now we have nothing to back it up. Even before he killed Dumbledore he was the man as stunted in the past as Sirius- or worse- and he did not have an excuse of spending his whole adult life in hell of the prison- the man in his mid-thirties who enjoyed his "power" in the class and humiliating kids in the public or driving them to the state they were not able to form a coherent sentence. A man who started hate 11 years old kid because he looks just like his father and the man who refused to teach him Occlumency even though the existence of the entire Order depended on that and though Dumbledore trusted him to do so.
Where is "the man who come to his senses" in that?

The fact that Snape is oh so sexy cold, calm and calculating while Sirius is hot-head does not make Snape more mature than him. In the kitchen scene they both acted like two 15 years old brats and the only one mature person there was Harry. Sad but true.

True, he didn't follow up on that philosophy himself, but all in all, I don't think he's more faulty than our dear Severus. I think they both share their bouts of prejudices, biases, and judgements.

Thank you.

BTW- sometimes I wonder why this thread is titled "Development of Snape character in HBP" and not "Bashing Sirius (sometimes Remus) with all the passion" Oh well...sometimes I wonder what Snape' fans would have done without Mr. Black and his horribly flawed, awfully stunted, terribly immature character. Where all the "while Sirius...", "yet Sirius...", "Sirius in the opposite..." would be if it was not for him

[Chrysalis]

Eh guys, Sirius isn't better or worse than Snape. I mean, who are we to argue such? Snape is clearly cruel, vindictive, bitter, emotionally stunted, petty and also a bully. Sirius had the right ideas but he had trouble living up to them. However I don't doubt he was a good person at heart - and he loved Harry, even though he encouraged him to recklessness.

Let's just say they're as good/bad as each other.

Tatiana, nice points.

[vampy321]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Eh guys, Sirius isn't better or worse than Snape. I mean, who are we to argue such? Snape is clearly cruel, vindictive, bitter, emotionally stunted, petty and also a bully. Sirius had the right ideas but he had trouble living up to them. However I don't doubt he was a good person at heart - and he loved Harry, even though he encouraged him to recklessness.

Let's just say they're as good/bad as each other.

Tatiana, nice points.

I agree Chrysalis. Both characters are flawed and thats why I love discussing them. We have to remember the reason Sirius is stuck thinking as he did when he was younger is because he was in Azkaban for 12 years for a crime he didnt commit, and Azkaban isnt your regular jail - dementors make you crazy. We can never doubt that he loved his friend James or that he loved Harry.
As for Snape (my all time favourite character) - he does have the nasty streak - and by the end of HBP many are questioning his loyalty. He is such a mystery (still after 6 books) and many of his scenes can be read so many different ways.

[Morgan LeFay]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Eh guys, Sirius isn't better or worse than Snape. I mean, who are we to argue such? Snape is clearly cruel, vindictive, bitter, emotionally stunted, petty and also a bully. Sirius had the right ideas but he had trouble living up to them. However I don't doubt he was a good person at heart - and he loved Harry, even though he encouraged him to recklessness.

Let's just say they're as good/bad as each other.

Tatiana, nice points.

You know, before this thread was started (and I think now still) most of other parts of this forums was "bashing Snape". This one gave us an opportunity to look at things from other pov.

I believe it only shows that we can't really judge these people to be good or bad, because no one is so one-dimensional. And this is what I love.

Being cruel and mean, Snape have some points in his behaviour which we can't ignore. I don't say it gives him justice to act how he's acting, but still, there is a lot to discuss.

I actually like that through Snape-filter we see that always perfect Marauders have some cracks on shiny surface. It makes them more human. They're still my favourite characters, along with Snape, Lily and Black sisters. It's because we know some things about them , yet they are still a mystery.

[Chrysalis]

I know that. But to say that Sirius was a deeply horrible and reckless person with no sense of responsibility doesn't sit very well with me either.

[atschpe]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Serpentine wants to start the Celtic Mythology thread again. We just discovered that the original has been archived during the Spoiler period. We were thinking that the forest imagery would fit really well on that thread, given the worship of trees and forest animals by the Celts. So if you and mdeligan want to, you can post your thoughts there.

I've already bookmarked it and will start my brains on the subject… Interesting ideas

Originally Posted by eVaNeScEnCe

Oh dear, I sense a collective dislike toward poor Sirius.
True, the man has a lot of faults but I think we should give him some credit. He did say one of the wisest quotes in the books: [paraphrase]
"If you want to see what a man is like, take a look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."

True, he didn't follow up on that philosophy himself, but all in all, I don't think he's more faulty than our dear Severus. I think they both share their bouts of prejudices, biases, and judgements.

At least he knows what is important and right. I also find this a very important quote: for once JKR is speaking through him, I doubt she'd want to do that often. Yet he was brought up to think that the purebloods were the best (that maybe a extra reason to loath ahalf-blood Snape?). He his clearly fighting with himself between what he was taught and what he has learnt from his surroundings.

[Morgan LeFay]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I know that. But to say that Sirius was a deeply horrible and reckless person with no sense of responsibility doesn't sit very well with me either.

And I believe I haven't said anything like this at all. Or have I? Sometimes I don't remember what I posted here.

[Chrysalis]

No, I didn't say you did. I just said that sometimes the discussions here veer that way.

[Morgan LeFay]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

No, I didn't say you did. I just said that sometimes the discussions here veer that way.

Yeah, I noticed this just yesterday. I must say sometimes I also went with the flow, but honestly, I don't think Sirius is horrible. Neither is Lupin, who also got some hits here (from me also , but it was fun to try to figure out "what if Lupin also had dark side" ).

Let's just keep some balance and everything will be ok.

[subtle science]

I think you all need to calm down....Deep breaths, now......

While you may believe that the purpose of the discussion was to "bash Sirius" or "pick on Lupin," it wasn't. It's a character analysis.

The primary focus is on Snape--for those who are confused, do check the title of the thread. The analyses often consider Snape's point of view, as well as his actions and words in the books.

Many ideas are considered here: if you are going to focus on, say, three pages, I'll venture the guess that you will manage to be insulted by something taken out of context. This thread covers a lot of territory, but the contributors tend to focus tightly on specific ideas before moving on. You might find the specific idea personally insulting, but please realize that that it is not the intent of anyone on the thread...If you find our analyses objectionable, the most helpful approach you could take, rather than criticize the topic of choice or reduce pages of thoughtful discussion to a sweeping generalization, is to redirect the course of the discussion with an interesting, thoughtful, analytical topic.

Deep breath.

Going back to an actual point....more or less....And returning to an on-topic discussion....

I've been mulling the ideas mentioned about Snape's trying to keep Draco from following in his father's and Snape's footsteps...I haven't really got a grasp on what it is I'm thinking (maybe it's lack of a full dose of coffee; maybe it's the falling barometric pressure), but I'm considering how that active interference contrasts with Dumbledore's approach. Snape doesn't succeed with Draco--part of it may be that Draco simply isn't receptive at that time to the idea; he's still convinced he's got the right idea. However, Dumbledore's approach at the end of HBP works--it's much less direct; Dumbledore even knocks Draco off balance with his apparent non-sequitars, such as the reference to his mercy and the objection to the use of "Mudblood."

I have no particular point to all this--I'm trying to figure out if there's anything there....It does make me wonder about Snape's going to Dumbledore to turn from Voldemort, and some previous discussion we've had about how close/distant they were as Headmaster and student and about the degree of Snape's anger, jealousy, and whatnot.

Snape realizes the extent of his fall and turns; he goes to Dumbledore as the one to help him on the path of redemption...is it a mirror of Draco, with the twist that Snape seeks help, whereas Draco does not. Snape repents when he is ready to repent; Draco is, in a way, pressured into repentence, just as, in another way, he was pressured into becoming a DE. That's not to say that he didn't make a choice, but just a nod to the fact that there was pressure exerted on him at both ends of the situation.

Snape descended further than Draco, but his turn back was voluntary; it has proven sincere. Does the lack of pure, unpressured choice imply that Draco may not hold to the right choice?

Early morning, pre-hurricane ramblings.

(By the way--I meant to say this a good way back--you ought to develop your forest ideas into a Mugglenet editorial, mdeligan.)

[Chrysalis]

Calm down? I am perfectly calm.

I'm afraid most of the discussion on the last few pages was quite lost on me - having never read the Bible or Milton.

[atschpe]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I'm afraid most of the discussion on the last few pages was quite lost on me - having never read the Bible or Milton.

Well, you can always bring up something else. There is no rule stating that we can only discuss one thing at a time…

[Potency]

Speaking of Snape and Draco, my gosh, if Snape is really on Dumbledore's side (and he is), yet Draco thought him differently, on Voldermort's side, all the time, how is he going to react??? He's going to feel so betrayed. I just have this image in my head of the confontation (not that we'll likely see it), and Draco saying "You were lying to me all this time!" and Snape responding "It was an act crucial to success, Draco!" ...and I wonder HOW Draco is going to handle it all...I think he's a goner in book 7 either way, so I guess it begs the question if Draco ever finds out. But what a horrible, horrible situation this is, that even if Snape was on the "good" side all along, he had to play DE, and I see Draco as a child, a victim in this. Now if he had known Snape had completely turned from Voldemort, he probably wouldn't have respected Snape so much, but still...Draco may have been too heavily influenced by his family, but Snape must have felt absolutely horrible to play this game in front of Draco. Then again, he may have pushed those feelings down, like he does so many other times, in order to get the job done.