Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[Jaguarundi]

Quote from subtle science:
I'm still not sure what to make of it all. I definitely don't trust Slughorn, as he is completely consumed by self interest...Is he afraid of Snape, now? Is he so shaken because he didn't know Snape was a DE and he had no idea that his former student was capable of such an act? Is that why he decides Hogwarts is as safe as anywhere else, even though DUmbledore is gone--because Snape is gone, too?

The detail of "sweating" red flags, to me, that once again self interest is at the core of Slughorn's reaction...whatever's going on, it sure isn't grief.

I would say that it's Slughorn's right to be afraid of Snape...Snape just killed one of the greastest wizards ever. And a Hogwarts without Dumbledore is a very scary place...especially when Harry Potter is in that school (Slughorn doesn't know that Harry's not coming back).

[subtle science]

Hmm..and Slughorn immediately says that "we're" as safe at Hogwarts as anywhere.

silver ink pot--I think you're right: Narcissa doesn't question Snape's assertations about what Voldemort does and doesn't know because she isn't necessarily in the loop at all. And, Norbertha--I think you're right that Snape is trying to get Bellatrix to assume that Snape told Sirius to go to the DoM, or lured him, or whatever--where she could 'finish him off.' The thing is, Snape is able to make it all sound so plausible--it's hard to think of objections when it sounds right. I like that, when Bellatrix does question, Snape keeps falling back on the old 'well, Voldemort believes me; are you questioning him? why don't you ask him?' defense--putting her on the offense. Especially since it seems she's not in Voldemort's particular good graces at the moment...

[Billywiggy]

SIP – I’ll add my name to those who think your new siggy and avatar are great! Autumn is also my favorite time of year . . . the change in the air, the colors on the trees, the rain . . .

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

That's a really interesting idea. . .he wouldn't need a Pensieve, as it seems that the Pensieve is only required to examine the memory, but any memory could be stored in a bottle. If there was anything really incriminating, Snape could remove it? That seems kind of like cheating, though. . .

Originally Posted by april

I don't think this is the case because Dumbledore always seems to be able to explain things so well, and Severus gets so mad about the "Snape's Worst Memory" thing. He must've known what the memory was or exactly how humiliated he was in order to get so upset over it.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

1) Either the memory is removed from the brain, and the only copy exists in the container. Which would make sense if Snape wanted to hide his memory about SWM from Harry. But this doesn’t explain how he can know which memory Harry is viewing, and be angry about it. His anger suggests that there is at least an imprint of the memory still left in his brain, but then, what does he gain by hiding it in the pensieve?
2) What is in the container, is only a copy of the memory. This option explains why Occlumency is needed at all. Otherwise, people who wished to lie could just store their memories in a bottle. But it doesn’t explain what Snape was doing with the pensieve ...

Glad to see I’m not the only one who still has questions about memory removal . . .
How does memory removal work? Is it completely removed when placed in a pensieve or a bottle, or is it a copy? If it’s a copy, then why does Snape bother placing his memories in the pensieve before the Occlumency lessons with Harry? If it removes the memory entirely – why does Snape say to Harry “Amusing man, your father, wasn’t he?” (P. 649, OOTP, US Paperback) Doesn’t this imply that Snape can recall what happens in the memory? How can he if it’s been removed? Are we supposed to think he remembers there is a memory, just not what the memory contains? He knows the memory is about James, but not the specifics?

Originally Posted by subtle science

I have nothing to back it up--but it just seems as if a removed memory would still be in one's mind, through other memories connected to it. For instance, SWM is removed, but Snape still remembers what happened that afternoon in the DADA practical exam, which probably reminds him of and connects to the written exam....But it would become secondary to the main memory of the practical exam.

Interesting, so you think that since that memory is connected to other memories, Snape would still retain his emotional response to that removed memory? This would be another reason why memory removal wouldn’t work as well as Occlumency . . . since you would still need Occlumency to cover the memory gaps and residual emotional responses anyway . . .

Originally Posted by Awiana

I think their relationship could have been somewhat different. I think the main reason Snape hates Harry is that he thinks Harry is just like James. Maybe if Harry had been in Slytherin, he would have realised that Harry isn’t exactly like James.

I think you have a good point. Harry being sorted into Griffindor is yet another similarity with James. Harry wouldn’t be a mini-James so much if he were wearing green and silver!
If Harry had gone into Slytherin, it might have made Snape pause and consider why Harry, son of Griffindors James and Lily, was sorted into Slytherin. But again, perhaps it would have been just like Harry’s Parseltongue ability that Snape discovers in COS . . . another interesting fact to store away and figure out – but nothing to change his view of Harry. After all, Harry would still be Harry.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I think Narcissa is overwrought, but also she is out of the loop and doesn't really know what goes on between Snape and Voldemort.

Do we know if Narcissa is even a Death Eater? Her husband, son and sister are, but is she?

[cinnamonluvr]

Originally Posted by Billywiggy

Do we know if Narcissa is even a Death Eater? Her husband, son and sister are, but is she?

I don't see her as being a death eater. We've never seen her do anything or be part of any DE activities- though that doesn't mean she isn't one. We only get to see the inner circle, so who knows how many others there are.

Originally Posted by subtle science
I have nothing to back it up--but it just seems as if a removed memory would still be in one's mind, through other memories connected to it. For instance, SWM is removed, but Snape still remembers what happened that afternoon in the DADA practical exam, which probably reminds him of and connects to the written exam....But it would become secondary to the main memory of the practical exam.

Great idea! Either that, or it leaves an imprint or makes a copy.

I'm still leaning towards that Snape wanted to look at the memories, though. Where in the books does it say that the pensieve is used to hide memories? It's just assumed that that is what Snape is doing. DD used it to store them and help him think- in OoTP, he's looking at the swirling mixture in deep thought. The times we have seen it being used (with DD), it's to look at the memories- in HBP Harry gets to see the 'past'. What's the point of Occlumency if you can just hide your memories- or might be given away by the surrounding memories? If it's just to hold thoughts, then there would be no point for the pensieve to show reality (which JK said it did)- it would just be like a diary. The interesting thing about it is not that it holds your memories, but that it takes that memory and creates that moment in time as it actually happened- you can see things that you missed the first time. As we saw in HBP, memories can be put into bottles. Why not just hide your memories there or in some other container? (just wanted to point out that maybe the memory goes 'bad' if in another container)

[ViperaDarcke]

Originally Posted by Jaguarundi

I would say that it's Slughorn's right to be afraid of Snape...Snape just killed one of the greastest wizards ever. And a Hogwarts without Dumbledore is a very scary place...especially when Harry Potter is in that school <snip>.

That is how I personally saw the scene with Slughorn in McGonnagal's (new Headmistress) office. One of the reasons that Slughorn came to Hogwarts was for protection. He was already in hiding. (For what reason we really do not know... Why would he be on the DE's list to be murdered??? )

That is one of the reasons that I believe JKR wrote that he was sweating... scared poo-less probably!

And after we saw the amazing 'escape' of DD in OOTP I can only come to the conclusion that he wanted Snape to kill him.
DD sacrificed himself for whatever reason weakened or not. I love Snape to death, and he is a powerful wizard, but he would not have a chance against Dumbledore if he had truly gone up against him based on what we have seen of DD's powers!

If I were Slughorn I would be shaking in my boots as well! But how well did he know Snape? Was he very close to him during Snape's school years??? He was his potions teacher... Was he his mentor? I am curious to find out what secrets he may hold about Snape's past. And I believe that he may be instrumental in book seven for Harry to find out some of Snape's history.

[april]

Originally Posted by ViperaDarcke

For what reason we really do not know... Why would he be on the DE's list to be murdered??? )

Memories in relation to Riddle's decision to make horcruxes. Do we really know how Dumbledore found out he had that memory? Maybe Severus told him that Sluggy was on the crawl and Dumbledore put 2 and 2 together?

[potmonst]

I think Snape was part of the Slug Club. We know he was outstanding at both Potions and DADA, so it would be easy for Slughorn to think Snape would go far in later life.
BTW, I don't think Slughorn was on the DEs hit list. I think he was avoiding them so that he would not have to refuse to do what they asked and get targeted. This makes far more sense from a Slytherin point of view.

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Thanks, but that implies that they had met before Severus started school. Originally, I thought they had. But after the HBP, I’m not so sure anymore.

They could have simply met on the train--like Harry meets Ron. . .

Originally Posted by Norbertha

I learned at a Harry Potter conference this summer (Accio 2005) that the reason why a lot of translations use the American cover design and chapter illustrations, is that somebody – was it Warner Brothers? - bought all the artwork, and they are now sending it out to all the publishers with the message: You can either use this artwork, for free, or if you use any other artwork, we will stop you... Well, that’s the impression I got from the talk, anyway. I think alternative artwork is allowed, but not any alternative Harry Potter logos – or something. I’m not an expert on copyright law.

Warner Brothers owns the name "Harry Potter;" therefore any merchandise containing the "Harry Potter" name is required to use the Warner Brother's lettering (and probably pay Warner Brothers for use of the name), except when permission is specifically given (Bloomsbury). "Harry Potter" is a brand-name just like "Coca-Cola." A soda-pop distributor in another country can't use the "Coca-Cola" name or use a different logo without the company's permission. (Apparently, JKR sold her rights to the name "Harry Potter" when Warner Brothers bought the film rights.)

As for the artwork, the woman giving the talk said that, since Warner Brothers (?) has already paid Grandpre a set price for the artwork she does for the series, they offer it to the publishers around the world free of charge. Publishers in other countries could commission their own artists, but it's cheaper (and, therfore, improves profit) to use the free artwork done by Grandpre.

At least, that was my understanding of the issues.

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Still, he claims credit for it in the scene with Bellatrix and Narcissa. So he needn’t have been any more involved with Emmeline vance’s death than he was with Sirius’s.

Good point!

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Hm. He says he “certainly helped”. It’s perhaps vague enough to lead Narcissa to believe that Voldemort got additional information from Snape?

No! Wait! Now I know! Snape wants Bellatrix to think that it was he who contacted Sirius and told him that Harry thought that he was in danger at the DoM. Bellatrix and Narcissa don’t know that Snape asked Sirius to stay behind. What he’s actually taking credit for, here, is making Sirius come to the DoM by telling him that Harry was there. Which is not an outright lie, but just “spinning” the truth.

I like the explanation that it's so vague it could really mean anything. It's a good guess that Snape meant to imply he sent Sirius to the DoM--the only thing about this theory that doesn't sit right with me is that it opens up questions about how Snape sent Sirius there. Even if he only told Sirius about Harry going to the DoM, it would still be as good as alerting the Order. Since Bellatrix had already mentioned how "half the Order" showed up at the DoM, I think leading the women down this train of thought leaves Snape too vulnerable. Of course, he could always deny this later, if necessary. . .

Originally Posted by Norbertha

I don’t like autumn,

I'm torn. I love that autumn is football season! But, I hate to see summer end because I love warm days best. . .

Originally Posted by Potency

Not to be a nerd here, but since Slughorn is very obese, its actually pretty realistic he'd be sweating even under slight exertion, even if he just hurried to the office. Having said that, I thought Slughorn was suspicious as well.

I had a similar thought! He's diaphoretic--he must be having a heart attack!

Originally Posted by potmonst

BTW, I don't think Slughorn was on the DEs hit list. I think he was avoiding them so that he would not have to refuse to do what they asked and get targeted. This makes far more sense from a Slytherin point of view.

I thought the same thing. (I think Slughorn says this in Chapter 4, but I'm too lazy to look right now.)

On the Pensieve and removing memories:
It was a good question, cinnamonluvr, about why Snape would need to remove his memory before the Occlumency lesson only to hide it, since he could easily have used a bottle. I don't have a good explanation, except that, perhaps, JKR hadn't yet solved the problem of how she was going to make memories portable and hadn't thought of storing them in bottles. For a better rationalization, perhaps the Pensieve is more secure--bottles might be broken, etc. Perhaps a memory can't be returned once it's been in a bottle. . .there are many possibilities.

I'm going to approach the rest of this with the idea that Snape was trying to hide his memories from Harry--it doesn't make sense that Snape would remove his memories just prior to the lesson, if he'd only planned to examine them. I also don't believe that Snape intended for Harry to snoop and see the memory--both due to his anger at finding Harry in the Pensieve and because the scenario that allowed Harry time to look into the Pensieve (Snape having to look after Montague after he was found in a toilet, having been stuffed into the vanishing cabinet some time before by Fred and George) cannot have been planned by Snape. I'll also assume that there is no "copy" or "imprint" of a memory that's been removed because, otherwise, there would be no reason for Snape to remove the memory prior to Occlumency lessons.

I like subtle's idea that there would be a noticable gap in memory and Billywiggy's addition that emotion associated with the memory felt later wouldn't be gone. Snape removed SWM and put it in the Pensieve. He would have no recollection of that specific event, but he might remember other things, such as being angry or ashamed about something James did during his DADA practical OWL exam. He might remember feeling a sense of discomfort when looking at the beech tree near the lake. He might remember taking revenge on James for something. He might have an aversion to gray underpants and obsessively insist on "tidy-whiteys." All of these things would point toward SWM and suggest its existence without actually knowing the details of the memory.

It's almost like interpreting literature--I've drawn the conclusion that Snape loved Lily based on "circumstantial evidence," even though nothing like that is ever explicitly stated. A skilled Legilimens might be able to draw a conclusion about what happened in SWM based on similar circumstantial evidence. This would be why Occlumency is still needed to prevent a skilled Legilimens from discovering a secret. Since Harry wasn't a skilled Legilemens, him stumbling across enough "circumstantial evidence" to draw a conclusion about what was missing was extremely unlikely and hiding the specific memory in the Pensieve was good enough.

As for Snape's fury when he found Harry in the Pensieve, even though he wouldn't have remembered the details of SWM, he would have remembered hiding a humiliating memory in the Pensieve. In addition, he was standing in the Pensieve with Harry and was able to see his teenage-self hanging upside down and hear James asking who wanted to see his underpants removed. Snape might not have been able to say how it turned out, but he would have suspected James removed his underpants, given his general opinion of James based on everything else.

[subtle science]

Chievrefueil--I like your fuller explanation of how the removal of a memory would work. Snape doesn't appear to be removing his memories for examination: he's doing it in front of Harry, and therefore that leads to the conclusion that he is removing the specific memory of SWM (and others) so that Harry can't access it--Harry isn't skilled enough to do the detective work necessary to find the associated memories or emotions and read them properly (heck--he can't read Snape face to face!).

And, naturally, I dove into the book for the quote:

"So, all these precautions against intruders, Horace...are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" asked Dumbledore.
"What would the Death Eaters want with a poor broken-down old buffer like me?" demanded Slughorn.
"I imagine that they would want you to turn your considerable talents to coercion, torture, and murder," said Dumbledore. "Are you really telling me that they haven't come recruiting yet?" (p. 68, US hardcover).

Interesting conversation. Dumbledore is pretty upfront that Slughorn would want him warded off as completely as the DEs. Then there is Dumbledore's characterization of Slughorn: he is powerful, and apparently rather Dark--or knowledge thereof...rather like Snape. Except Slughorn doesn't want a side. Slughorn characterizes himself as useless...I'll take Dumbledore's comments as the truth, pleaseandthankyou.

This is hte conversation that makes me think that Slughorn might actually have gone with Regulus to the cave...............I suppose that is a comment that belongs elsewhere...........

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by subtle science

Chievrefueil--I like your fuller explanation of how the removal of a memory would work.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by subtle

Harry isn't skilled enough to do the detective work necessary to find the associated memories or emotions and read them properly (heck--he can't read Snape face to face!).

Good point!

Originally Posted by subtle

And, naturally, I dove into the book for the quote:

"So, all these precautions against intruders, Horace...are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" asked Dumbledore.
"What would the Death Eaters want with a poor broken-down old buffer like me?" demanded Slughorn.
"I imagine that they would want you to turn your considerable talents to coercion, torture, and murder," said Dumbledore. "Are you really telling me that they haven't come recruiting yet?" (p. 68, US hardcover).

Interesting conversation. Dumbledore is pretty upfront that Slughorn would want him warded off as completely as the DEs. Then there is Dumbledore's characterization of Slughorn: he is powerful, and apparently rather Dark--or knowledge thereof...rather like Snape. Except Slughorn doesn't want a side. Slughorn characterizes himself as useless...I'll take Dumbledore's comments as the truth, pleaseandthankyou.

Thanks for the quote. I think Slughorn's next response to Dumbledore was that they hadn't tried to recruit him yet because he'd been hiding. To me, that sounds more like he's hiding from the Death Eaters than from Dumbledore--at least Dumbledore found him.

Dumbledore's choice of words is interesting. Is it a recruiting tactic when he suggests that the Death Eaters might want him for "coercion, torture, and murder?" He must know of Slughorn's shame over speaking with Riddle about the Horcruxes, so he suggests that Slughorn might be useful to the Death Eaters in that way again. . .

I think Slughorn's behavior is a good example of that quote by Edmund Burke: All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. Even though it's not normally thought of in this way, I think it's a quote about selfishness. Slughorn would allow Voldemort to succeed because of his own selfishness. Meanwhile Snape is selfless in his actions for Dumbledore and against Voldemort. I think that's an interesting demonstration from Slytherin House. The ambition and cunning of Slytherins can be selfish or selfless.*

*I had to get Snape in there.

Originally Posted by subtle

This is hte conversation that makes me think that Slughorn might actually have gone with Regulus to the cave...............I suppose that is a comment that belongs elsewhere...........

Interesting idea!

[silver ink pot]

Great stuff everyone about the memories, in jars, bottles, the Pensieve or otherwise! Maybe JKR will explain how it works ~ gap or no gap in the memory.

Originally Posted by subtle science

And, naturally, I dove into the book for the quote:

"So, all these precautions against intruders, Horace...are they for the Death Eaters' benefit, or mine?" asked Dumbledore.
"What would the Death Eaters want with a poor broken-down old buffer like me?" demanded Slughorn.
"I imagine that they would want you to turn your considerable talents to coercion, torture, and murder," said Dumbledore. "Are you really telling me that they haven't come recruiting yet?" (p. 68, US hardcover).

Wow, Subtle! That really makes me think: what "gifts" does a torturer and murderer have? Immediately, I'm thinking poison. Now he has all that Acromantula venom he got from Aragog, too.

And I just realized that I am slow-witted. Slughorn's name is "Horace." As in the philosopher, "Horace." Last week when I was reading Socrates and Plato, it never even occurred to me! (Slaps forehead softly so as not to disturb what's left of my brains.) I'll have to look into this!

According to the Gutenberg Text of the works of Horace, he wrote a poem to someone named "Albius":

Poem of Horace TO ALBIUS TIBULLUS ALBI, NOSTRORUM. Albius, kind critic of my satires, say, What do you down at Pedum far away? . . . sauntering, calm and healthful, through the wood, Bent on such thoughts as suit the wise and good? No brainless trunk is yours: a form to please, Wealth, wit to use it, Heaven vouchsafes you these. What could fond nurse wish more for her sweet pet Than friends, good looks, and health without a let, A shrewd clear head, a tongue to speak his mind, A seemly household, and a purse well-lined? Let hopes and sorrows, fears and angers be, And think each day that dawns the last you'll see; For so the hour that greets you unforeseen Will bring with it enjoyment twice as keen. Ask you of me? you'll laugh to find me grown A hog of Epicurus, full twelve stone.

:rofl:

That leads me to Chiev's comment:

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I had a similar thought! He's diaphoretic--he must be having a heart attack!

Yes, but the wine cleans out his arteries! Your post begs the question, though, "How long can an obese wizard live?" Or should I say, a "hog of Epicurus."

Vipera Darke: Love your Snape signature! Very nice!

Originally Posted by Norbertha

I don’t like autumn

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I'm torn. I love that autumn is football season! But, I hate to see summer end because I love warm days best. . .

I guess I started something with my "I love fall" statement. I love the summer, too, because I'm a gardener, and I really miss fresh tomatoes when winter comes. It's just so hot and humid here in the summer, and fall is so pleasantly cool! With the fall colors it is absolutely the prettiest time to live in the Appalachian Mountains, too. And, ok, I admit I love football too!!! And then there is Halloween. It's all good for me!

[vampy321]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

On the Pensieve and removing memories:

Thankyou for the explanation. I originally took the description in the book on face-value, on further examination I became extremely confused because I kept thinking to myself 'How could Snape remember the memory if its not in his mind?' and it just does not seem plausible that he would want Harry to see the memory - something as humilating as the SWM. I imagine Snape would think that Harry would gloat knowing that his father had one over Snape in school, Snape wouldnt see past himself to think that Harry actually felt remorse and sadness (although it was fleeting) .

Originally Posted by potmonst

I think Snape was part of the Slug Club. We know he was outstanding at both Potions and DADA, so it would be easy for Slughorn to think Snape would go far in later lifeBTW, I don't think Slughorn was on the DEs hit list. I think he was avoiding them so that he would not have to refuse to do what they asked and get targeted. This makes far more sense from a Slytherin point of view..

I am having a hard time seeing Snape in the SlugClub. Although he is outstanding in Potions I think his 'nerdy, unpopular' image just isnt what Sluggy is looking for in his club. He wants talented, bright, popular people in his club, people with connections or who are extrordinary. Although Snape is very gifted/extrordinary I think he may have been socially inept, an introvert at school. I cant see Slughorn as the type of teacher to take these type of students under his wings to allow them to blossom.
Good point about Slughorn avoiding the DEs

[clkginny]

Originally Posted by Billywiggy

How does memory removal work? Is it completely removed when placed in a pensieve or a bottle, or is it a copy? If it’s a copy, then why does Snape bother placing his memories in the pensieve before the Occlumency lessons with Harry? If it removes the memory entirely – why does Snape say to Harry “Amusing man, your father, wasn’t he?” (P. 649, OOTP, US Paperback) Doesn’t this imply that Snape can recall what happens in the memory? How can he if it’s been removed? Are we supposed to think he remembers there is a memory, just not what the memory contains? He knows the memory is about James, but not the specifics?

My personal theory (and my favorite, but I'm biased, too) is that a memory can only be accessed by one spell/magical object at a time. So, if it is in the pensieve, than ligilimency won't access it. *shrug* I have no proof, but I like it.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Snape removed SWM and put it in the Pensieve. He would have no recollection of that specific event, but he might remember other things, such as being angry or ashamed about something James did during his DADA practical OWL exam.

Or he might remember remembering it?

[Severus]

Thank you and welcome!

SIP,
It's great to be here!

As for Slughorn's reaction to Dumbleodre's death and Snape's role in it...Hagrid told him about it before he comes to the office: what Slughorn says comes out of him as soon as he walks into the Heads of Houses meeting--it's not his instant reaction upon first hearing the news. I don't know if or how important that could be--but it is a detail that I noticed.

subtle science,
I noticed, though, that he said it upon 'traipsing in' McGonagall's office with Flitwick and Sprout. As if he'd been holding it in until they were inside.

No no...I think Slughorn was genuinely shaken by Dumbledore's death and the fact that Snape killed him. Come on people, we're the ones who appreciate Snape for being a truly complex character...then surely Slughorn isn't one-dimensional? He's not a bad person, yes he does have major flaws and he's a bit of a jerk but he's not evil. I think that Slughorn knows something important about Snape. He's done some stupid things in the past - we saw where Tom Riddle got just by massaging his ego a bit - but Dumbledore evidently trusted him, and that should be enough. I think Slughorn's a red herring rather than a red flag - he's pretty harmless. The traitor will come from some other, unexpected place.

Chrysalis,
I think he was genuinely shaken because he did think so highly of him and I think he may have been in the Slug Club (hand-picked favorites). Remember him putting his arm around Snape at the party?

Grief over Dumbledore should not manifest itself as "sweating." That has more to do with Snape, Snape's actions, and the invasion of Hogwarts.

subtle science,
Agreed. If one of the benefits of Hogwarts is protection from the DEs, he's shaken to discover he's been under the nose of one for months. What if he's been saying some things to Snape that V ought not hear?

Not to be a nerd here, but since Slughorn is very obese, its actually pretty realistic he'd be sweating even under slight exertion, even if he just hurried to the office. Having said that, I thought Slughorn was suspicious as well.

-Potency,
Good pick-up. He'd be sweating all the more, if frightened.

This is hte conversation that makes me think that Slughorn might actually have gone with Regulus to the cave...............I suppose that is a comment that belongs elsewhere...........

subtle science,
Not sure what you mean. Would you please expound?


I'll agree with subtle science and say that if DD thinks he's harmless, he probably is. In re-reading passages, I became a little fond of the old duffer. I especially like this, page 319, US:

"Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all."
"Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson..."

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Severus

"Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all."
"Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson..."

Severus: That's a strange statement, isn't it? "You should have seen what he gave me . . . "

What he "gave" Slughorn was a cauldronful of the Draught of the Living Death - in perfect form, unlike the rest of the class! I wonder what old Slughorn did with it?

I doubt Slughorn "Evanesco'd" it, the way Snape might have done, you know? If it was indeed made the proper way, then Slughorn might have kept it! That statement "gave me" sounds so possessive!

I was reading Chapter 2 again tonight, and I came across a weird line:

"At last, Narcissa hurried up a street named Spinner's End, over which the towering mill chimney seemed to hover like a giant admonitory finger."

That is a strange image, and originally I thought it meant a "rude" sort of gesture! Tonight, though,the word "admonitory" jumped out at me for the first time:

SYLLABICATION: ad·mo·ni·tion
PRONUNCIATION: dm-nshn
NOUN: 1. Mild, kind, yet earnest reproof. 2. Cautionary advice or warning.

admonish
c.1325, from O.Fr. amonester, from L. admonere "advise, remind," from ad- "to" + monere "advise, warn" (see monitor). The -d- was restored on L. model. Admonition is c.1374, from L. admonitionem, noun of action from admonere.

monitor
1546, "senior pupil at a school charged with keeping order, etc.," from L. monitor "one who reminds, admonishes, or checks," from monere "to admonish, warn, advise," related to memini "I remember, I am mindful of," and to mens "mind," from PIE base *men- "to think" (see mind (n.)).

So, in the story, what do you think the word "admonish" foreshadows? Is it there to warn the reader that Snape is about to make a mistake with the Vow? Is JKR admonishing us to "think"? Or is she just saying that Snape is being warned that Draco is up to something dangerous?

Here's something interesting. On a tomb, a hand with an admonitory finger symbolizes:
http://freespace.virgin.net/john.bro.../newfile21.htm

HAND/S
As an admonitory finger a pointer to Heaven, with a heart as an emblem of Charity, when clasped as a symbol of brotherly love, farewell or reunity.

But also this (omg):

"I have long realized that actors and artistes often have such fantastic ideas that one is compelled from time to time to shake an admonitory finger at them and bring them back to earth."

--- Adolf Hitler

[random_musing]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

So, in the story, what do you think the word "admonish" foreshadows? Is it there to warn the reader that Snape is about to make a mistake with the Vow? Is JKR admonishing us to "think"? Or is she just saying that Snape is being warned that Draco is up to something dangerous?

I thought the same as you before, that it was some sort of crude gesture! I never caught that so good catch! And interesting symbolism. The thing is that I've grown a bit weary on the strong symbolism in the HP books because so many have become simple coincidences (which end up being quite dissapointing)...but this really pops out at me.

[DancingMaenid]

Originally Posted by Awiana

The “deeply horrible person” comment disturbs me a bit too. Not that it makes me doubt Snape’s loyalties, but I just think it’s weird that she would say that he’s deeply horrible. Yes, he’s horrible to Harry, and he definitely isn’t nice, warm and sweet, but he does have good qualities too. I think he’s very loyal, brave, he is able to do what is good instead of what’s easy, and I don’t really see him as selfish. Is that kind of person really deeply horrible?? Oh well, maybe she just likes to confuse her fans.

I agree with you. From what we've seen, I don't think that he seems 'deeply horrible'. It just seems to suggest that he spends every waking moment thinking up mean things to say and do, and dreams about it at night, and I really don't think he's that one-dimensional.

Originally Posted by cinnamonluvr

About SWM, I'm thinking that the pensieve either leaves an 'imprint', like a shadow of the memory, or either copies it.

That's a strong possibility, I think. I'll go into it more in a moment....

Originally Posted by Norbertha

Thanks, but that implies that they had met before Severus started school. Originally, I thought they had. But after the HBP, I’m not so sure anymore.

Well, technically, it's possible that Snape met Lucius on the train to Hogwarts. I mean, Harry formed opinions on the people he met almost immediately (Draco was stuck up and mean, Hermione was a know-it-all, Ron was cool, Hagrid was cool....). So, I think that Snape could've met Lucius on the train, or in Diagon Alley, and if Lucius seemed like a cool guy to Snape, that would've been enough, I think.

Originally Posted by subtle science

I have nothing to back it up--but it just seems as if a removed memory would still be in one's mind, through other memories connected to it. For instance, SWM is removed, but Snape still remembers what happened that afternoon in the DADA practical exam, which probably reminds him of and connects to the written exam....But it would become secondary to the main memory of the practical exam.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I like subtle's idea that there would be a noticable gap in memory and Billywiggy's addition that emotion associated with the memory felt later wouldn't be gone. Snape removed SWM and put it in the Pensieve. He would have no recollection of that specific event, but he might remember other things, such as being angry or ashamed about something James did during his DADA practical OWL exam. He might remember feeling a sense of discomfort when looking at the beech tree near the lake. He might remember taking revenge on James for something. He might have an aversion to gray underpants and obsessively insist on "tidy-whiteys." All of these things would point toward SWM and suggest its existence without actually knowing the details of the memory

I think you guys have a good point. I remember it was vaguely mentioned by someone in version 1, I think, that Snape might not have remembered SWM after removing it, but would remember the emotions and events that followed. Personally, I think it's possible for Snape to not really 'remember' SWM when it's removed, but still know about what happened. For example, if we read a scene in a book, we have a memory of what happened in that scene, and may be able to visualize it, but it's not really one of our memories, because it didn't actually happen. I think maybe that may be what happens when you remove a memory; you know it happened, but more in a distant way, so it really wouldn't show up when Legilimency is performed. And of course, as you guys have mentioned, Snape would still remember things related to SWM.

Originally Posted by subtle science

Interesting conversation. Dumbledore is pretty upfront that Slughorn would want him warded off as completely as the DEs. Then there is Dumbledore's characterization of Slughorn: he is powerful, and apparently rather Dark--or knowledge thereof...rather like Snape. Except Slughorn doesn't want a side. Slughorn characterizes himself as useless...I'll take Dumbledore's comments as the truth, pleaseandthankyou.

Hmmm...that's very interesting. I hadn't really noticed that! Between that, and Sluggy's knowledge of Horcruxes (which aren't even written about!) it would certainly seem that he's knowledgable about the Dark Arts.

[Chrysalis]

That's strange, I had the same thought about the admonitory finger! Even though I knew it was actually intended as a 'warning' - I interpreted that as directed to Narcissa and Bellatrix, because they were doing something that defied the Dark Lord's orders.

More on Slughorn: of course he was frightened, one of his best former students had just turned out to be a DE, right under his nose, and he had killed Dumbledore. I wonder, how much does he know about Snape? Did he know something about Snape/Lily? The man is quite shrewd that way.

Slughorn must be a Taurus: his waistlines is evidence, plus he loves the finer things in life!

[subtle science]

silver ink pot--Great find on the Albinus poem. I mentioned Horace a while back--he used connections to rise socially, as well as being the "carpe diem" poet...which certainly is Slughorn's philosophy. Which is also, in its negative aspect, another bit of selfishness: Chievrefueil--I like your distinction between Snape and Slughorn: selfless versus selfish.

It's just very, very difficult to imagine weird, nerdy, poor Snape in the SlugClub...maybe an initial invitation...but after that? Of the two talented people in Potions, Slughorn is completely enamored of Lily; he doesn't appear to have valued Snape for his potential. Slughorn, I doubt, would view awkward, twitchy Snape as the one who was going to achieve something great in order to benefit Slughorn--Lily's the more palatable figure, who has the talent, the looks, and the personality to get somewhere, even if she is Muggle-born....

[Pythia]

I've missed lots of good discussion these past few days while I have been ill. One bad thing about autumn SIP, it heralds the start of the sniffles season!

Originally Posted by Billywiggy

Glad to see I’m not the only one who still has questions about memory removal . . .

Yeah, me too. I went back to the first introduction of the pensieve in GOF and thought that what Dumbledore said was interesting

GOF 'The Pensieve' p518-19 English Edition
'This? It is called a Pensieve,' said Dumbledore. 'I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.'
'Er,' said Harry, who couldn't truthfully say that he had ever felt anything of the sort.
'At these times,' said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, 'I use the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's leisure. I t becomes easier to spot patterns and links, you understand, when they are in this form.'
'You mean... that stuff's your thoughts?' Harry said, staring at the swirling white substance in the basin.

I noticed that JKR referred to what you put in the pensieve as thoughts and not memories, and that Dumbledore used it to store his thoughts because he felt his own brain was too crowded. This makes me think that it is like an extra memory device you can buy for your computer because the memory capacity is full. Dumbledore seems to use it to organize his thoughts, to spot patterns and connections. This suggests to me that he can remember what he has put in there as he uses it to help him work out what is going on. If he didn't know what was in there, because the pensieve was just a repository for thoughts that you had no further use for and didn't need to have a recall of them, then he wouldn't be able to use it that way. (hope that made sense)
So, does Snape use it in the same way? Does he use to help him make sense of what he seen in his capacity as a spy, to make connections and then decide what the best course of action is? Or does the pensieve have many functions, as an organizer, extra thought space and as a storage for thoughts/memories you wish to hide?

originally posted by chrysalis
Slughorn must be a Taurus: his waistlines is evidence, plus he loves the finer things in life!

I think you may be on to something here. It's a well known trait of ours, though not all of us have Slughorn like waists . Taureans are also very stubborn which would tie in well with his stubborness in giving up the memory