Development of Snape's character through HBP v. 3

[marcko90000]

Originally Posted by Pythia

I noticed that JKR referred to what you put in the pensieve as thoughts and not memories, and that Dumbledore used it to store his thoughts because he felt his own brain was too crowded. This makes me think that it is like an extra memory device you can buy for your computer because the memory capacity is full. Dumbledore seems to use it to organize his thoughts, to spot patterns and connections. This suggests to me that he can remember what he has put in there as he uses it to help him work out what is going on. If he didn't know what was in there, because the pensieve was just a repository for thoughts that you had no further use for and didn't need to have a recall of them, then he wouldn't be able to use it that way. (hope that made sense)

JKR has pretty much answered Pensieve questions - and you seem to have it correct.

Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005 “Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?” JKR: It’s reality. It’s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve. ES: I was dead wrong about that. JKR: Really? ES: I thought for sure that it was your interpretation of it. It didn’t make sense to me to be able to examine your own thoughts from a third-person perspective. It almost feels like you'd be cheating because you'd always be able to look at things from someone else's point of view. MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive. ES: I want one of those! JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn’t it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It’s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere.

Originally Posted by Pythia

So, does Snape use it in the same way? Does he use to help him make sense of what he seen in his capacity as a spy, to make connections and then decide what the best course of action is? Or does the pensieve have many functions, as an organizer, extra thought space and as a storage for thoughts/memories you wish to hide?

I do not recall, and we the reader does not know, if Snape used the Pensieve in the same way. We only have evidence of him using it for the latter - to keep memories away from Harry.

[Chievrefueil]

Originally Posted by clkginny

Or he might remember remembering it?

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Personally, I think it's possible for Snape to not really 'remember' SWM when it's removed, but still know about what happened.

I think you both have the same idea here. If, before the first Occlumency lesson, Snape was concerned about Harry's potential Legilimency/Occlumency skills (afterall, he'd heard how Harry was a natural at throwing off the Imperius Curse), he might feel concerned that Harry would be able to see some of his memories and ask Dumbledore for use of the Pensieve. He likely thought about the contents of various memories before placing them into the Pensieve. He would remember the events of SWM and probably (since he hasn't really moved on) remember the feelings associated with that memory. In that way, he would have knowledge of what the memory contained, but it would be more nebulous. A Legilimens breaking into his mind would see him thinking about what memories to place into a Pensieve, but it would likely take much more skill to interpret the feelings and thoughts associated with his thinking about what memories to place into the Pensieve in order to figure out the details of SWM.

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be emotion associated with the memories that flash through Harry's mind when Snape is performing Legilimency (both in OotP and HBP). Harry would certainly have felt something when being chased by Ripper, for example, but it doesn't seem to be conveyed. In contrast, when Voldemort accused Wormtail of lying at the beginning of GoF, he must have sensed Wormtail's emotions to know, since it didn't seem to involve a particular memory of an action. Perhaps, they're different levels of Legilimency? Perhaps Snape isn't a very good Legilimens--Draco is able to successfully block him--and it would take much more skill to interpret emotion than it would to interpret pure image from the memory. Again, that, along with the points made by clkginny and DancingMaenid, would explain why one couldn't simply remove a memory and store it when facing a Legilimens.

Originally Posted by subtle science

It's just very, very difficult to imagine weird, nerdy, poor Snape in the SlugClub...maybe an initial invitation...but after that? Of the two talented people in Potions, Slughorn is completely enamored of Lily; he doesn't appear to have valued Snape for his potential.

That seems like it might be a mistake made by someone young, but not someone older like Slughorn. Rightly or wrongly, I always think of Bill Gates as the epitome of geekiness. Here he is in 1984:



Having been a teenager in 1984, I can say that he doesn't look anything like the cool kids. And, I doubt he looked any better in high school.

I can see his peers not thinking that he'd make anything of himself (Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor. . .), but surely his teachers would have seen how brilliant he was and expected him to go far, despite his geeky exterior. I have no idea if the was ever as awkward as Snape, but by the time Slughorn was teaching Snape he must have had an idea of how far Snape's intelligence would get him, despite a geeky and awkward exterior. By the time he taught Snape, there must have been plenty of other geeky former students who turned out to have good careers with whom Slughorn would have wanted to keep in touch.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I was reading Chapter 2 again tonight, and I came across a weird line:

"At last, Narcissa hurried up a street named Spinner's End, over which the towering mill chimney seemed to hover like a giant admonitory finger."

*snip*

So in the story what do you think the word "admonish" foreshadows? Is it there to warn the reader that Snape is about to make a mistake with the Vow? Is JKR admonishing us to "think"? Or is she just saying that Snape is being warned that Draco is up to something dangerous?

I agree with Chrysalis. It's an image to suggest that Narcissa is doing the wrong thing by going to Snape and defying Voldemort. If it's meant to be foreshadowing at all, I would say that it foreshadow's Narcissa's mistake in going to Snape and trusting him. Snape is not ultimately on her side.

I hope this post is coherent--there are many long, run-on sentences.

[subtle science]

I guess I just don't see Slughorn as all that perceptive; he seems to prefer floating along on the surface of life. After all, what in the world does Blaise Zabini have to offer, except terminal snobbiness? There's Snape--brilliant...and greasy, uncoordinated, foul-mouthed, poor, socially isolated.....In contrast, Neville, who only made it to meeting #1 and failed the tryout, looks like a winner--at least people like him......

I'll chime in the admonitory finger of the chimney--it struck me as another element of harshness in the description of the area--the boarded and broken windows, the dirty river, the rubbish, the nonfunctional streetlamps: everything is run down, ugly and harsh....hmm: rather a bit like Snape himself! As well as a 'you should not be here' sense for Narcissa, it's an overall idea: the area could not be more unwelcoming to anyone. Although, if one then wants to push the literary analysis further--what an interesting contrast, then, to Snape's cordial welcome of Narcissa (albeit not Bellatrix; she'd do well to heed the admonition), the wine, and the coziness of the book-lined walls..................

[eeny]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Having been a teenager in 1984, I can say that he doesn't look anything like the cool kids. And, I doubt he looked any better in high school.

One more great comparison for Snape...

Originally Posted by subtle science

In contrast, Neville, who only made it to meeting #1 and failed the tryout, looks like a winner--at least people like him......

Is Neville so much loved by the people? Or is the difference there that Snape compared to Neville was trying to protect himself and allow demonstration of self-concern in his teen-ages?
What I would like to aggree passionately with is the belief that you do not need to be a show-off and loved-by-all person to make something out in your adult life. There are deifferent people, and various destinies, and various pace. Snape and Nevill are both examples, and hope Jame's profession will tell a bit about him, too. Has Sanpe used all the opprtunitioe he had? That is the question!

[Fig_Leaf]

first post, so i just hope i get this right.

My thoughts on the pensieve were slightly different. I never assumed that snape was trying to hide the memories from harry, since it probably would have taken more skill than he possessed in the first lesson. I beleived (most likely mistaken) that DD lent the device to snape so that he could get rid of some of the worse memories dealing with james enabling him to better deal with harry.

when DD was later discussing the occlumecy failure w/ harry (sorry, don't have the book) in OoTP, he suggested that he thought snape would be able to get over the past (possibly due to the use of the pensieve?) but was not capable.

just a thought...

[ViperaDarcke]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Vipera Darke: Love your Snape signature! Very nice!

Thank you! I finally made a screencap that I liked. Still one of my favorite scenes with Snape!

Originally Posted by fig leaf

My thoughts on the pensieve were slightly different. I never assumed that snape was trying to hide the memories from harry, since it probably would have taken more skill than he possessed in the first lesson. I beleived (most likely mistaken) that DD lent the device to snape so that he could get rid of some of the worse memories dealing with james enabling him to better deal with harry.

I am still a newbie too but Welcome!

Good thoughts on that!

That is a possibility. I also think that he used it not so much to hide things from Harry but to keep the level of Teacher/Student respect between them.

Perhaps Snape thought that if Harry knew about the torture that James put him through he would spread it around the school and make fun of him the way James did.

And the last thing that he would want is for people to begin to tease him again. It would strip away a lot of the fear that he has instilled in the student population if they knew about his troubles as a teenager.

And how could he be considered a repectable teacher if students walked through the halls yelling

"Have you washed your underpants yet Snivelley???"

What a nightmare that would be!

[Severus]

"Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all."
"Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson..."

by Silver Ink Pot
Severus: That's a strange statement, isn't it? "You should have seen what he gave me . . . "
What he "gave" Slughorn was a cauldronful of the Draught of the Living Death - in perfect form, unlike the rest of the class! I wonder what old Slughorn did with it?

I doubt Slughorn "Evanesco'd" it, the way Snape might have done, you know? If it was indeed made the proper way, then Slughorn might have kept it! That statement "gave me" sounds so possessive!

I tend to think that 'gave me' is teacher speak…subtle science? But, now you mention it, it would be handy to keep on hand (whatever it is).

What does Evanesco’d mean?

by Silver Ink Pot
"At last, Narcissa hurried up a street named Spinner's End, over which the towering mill chimney seemed to hover like a giant admonitory finger."

I tend to see this as mood setting, like in a murder mystery or spy novel, but if I were to guess a symbolism, it would be a mirroring of Narcissa’s apprehension.

by subtle science
It's just very, very difficult to imagine weird, nerdy, poor Snape in the SlugClub...maybe an initial invitation...but after that? Of the two talented people in Potions, Slughorn is completely enamored of Lily; he doesn't appear to have valued Snape for his potential. Slughorn, I doubt, would view awkward, twitchy Snape as the one who was going to achieve something great in order to benefit Slughorn--Lily's the more palatable figure, who has the talent, the looks, and the personality to get somewhere, even if she is Muggle-born...

Yes, I catch your meaning, although I think it’s naughty of JK not to say one way or another. But as I read page 319, US, Slughorn has affection for Snape.

by Chrysalis
More on Slughorn: of course he was frightened, one of his best former students had just turned out to be a DE, right under his nose, and he had killed Dumbledore. I wonder, how much does he know about Snape? Did he know something about Snape/Lily? The man is quite shrewd that way.

Wow, great catch. Shrewd Sluggie would have noticed something like that.



More about Slughorn: I just saw on another thread mention made that he wasn't at DD's funeral. That's big. Any ideas?

[mdeligan]

So all of this talk of autumn colors, Halloween, signatures, espionage and Snape inspired me to add the picture and quote to my signature area. By the way, is it just my computer or is page 7 of this thread formatted differently? It is too wide for my monitor.

I've never read anything by Sun Tzu but that won't stop me from using and abusing quotations. It seems to fall in the same general category of Machiavelli's The Prince - realism with attention to strategy and tactics - although I am aware that the culture, context and focus (military versus governing) are very different.

I'm looking at the quotes below from the POV of Snape and Dumbledore.

Here are two versions of the same remark about espionage and war that remind me of Snape's introduction to Potions class in book 1 (potions as subtle science) and his comments to Harry in OOTP on his lack of subtlety.

O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible and hence we can hold the enemy's fate in our hands. - Sun Tzu

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.
Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Emptiness and Fullness

The full version of the quote in my signature is

All warfare is based on deception. There is no place where espionage is not used. Offer the enemy bait to lure him.

Other interesting quotations:

The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
Sun Tzu

This makes me think of Dumbledore up in his office (temple) pacing around and contemplating the next ten moves or so. How much does he foresee is a constant question in the books and most so at the end of HBP.

Of all those in the army close to the commander none is more intimate than the secret agent; of all rewards none more liberal than those given to secret agents; of all matters none is more confidential than those relating to secret operations.
Sun Tzu

This reminds me of the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore. As for rewards, I suppose this could be interpreted as the amount of trust that Dumbledore gives to Snape. Material rewards are usually not given to spies unless they can be easily hidden and don't draw attention to the spy. I see rewards in this context to be intangible ones like trust and respect.

Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge.
Sun Tzu

I couldn't resist the prince reference! Again, the half-blood prince and Dumbledore the general.

Both leaders (Dumbledore and Voldemort) rely heavily on espionage, covert tactics and the actions of a few rather than many to deflect the enemy and put their plans into motion. Every book so far has been touched by agents operating under cover of darkness and deception, so I think that there are probably a few more spies left to be revealed (for both sides). I wonder if Rowling perused Art of War while planning out the series, especially Snape's role and relationship with both Voldemort and Dumbledore. I think if we were to look back over the books from this perspective, we might see some quiet references that have previously gone unnoticed.

[Darth_Raven]

It's funny you should mention that, mdeligan!

I was just thinking about the Trojan War and how it was won. Not with the bravery and valour of the numorous dunderheads who were after Helen and glory. But with the subversive measure of the Trojan Horse which came from the mind of Odysseus.

On a side note I prefer The Odyssey over The Iliad.

Anyway, great post and nice sig!

[eVaNeScEnCe]

Originally Posted by mdeligan

Both leaders (Dumbledore and Voldemort) rely heavily on espionage, covert tactics and the actions of a few rather than many to deflect the enemy and put their plans into motion.

I was just thinking about the Trojan War and how it was won. Not with the bravery and valour of the numorous dunderheads who were after Helen and glory. But with the subversive measure of the Trojan Horse which came from the mind of Odysseus.

Which makes Dumbledore's reason for wanting Snape to fully immerse himself into Voldemort's inner circle all the more plausible. Subversion from within: the ideal tactic for winning the war. I can see DD very much rooting for this notion, given his own cunning approaches in HBP (delving into Riddle's past to unmask his weaknesses). In fact, I can see this being the ultimate motive for allowing Snape to kill him.

[DancingMaenid]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

I can see his peers not thinking that he'd make anything of himself (Mr. Padfoot would like to register his astonishment that an idiot like that ever became a professor. . .), but surely his teachers would have seen how brilliant he was and expected him to go far, despite his geeky exterior.

Personally, I don't think it's so much that Sluggy wouldn't see Snape as being capable of great things, but more that he'd think Snape wasn't sociable enough. It seems like a lot of the Slug Club members are very popular, well-liked people. Lily was popular in school, Harry is extremely popular and Ginny is popular. Since the Slug Club is mostly about networking, I could see Sluggy seeing that Snape is talented, but unable to make friends, and maybe Snape in hopes that he'd manage to make some friends or contacts, but may have stopped inviting him if it didn't work out that way. Someone who makes enemies and avoids socializing is going to have a lot of trouble moving up in any career, whether they're nerdy or not.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be emotion associated with the memories that flash through Harry's mind when Snape is performing Legilimency (both in OotP and HBP). Harry would certainly have felt something when being chased by Ripper, for example, but it doesn't seem to be conveyed. In contrast, when Voldemort accused Wormtail of lying at the beginning of GoF, he must have sensed Wormtail's emotions to know, since it didn't seem to involve a particular memory of an action. Perhaps, they're different levels of Legilimency?

You know, that's an interesting point, there. I've often wondered about that. It would seem that being able to pick up on emotions would be important in telling if someone was lying or not. But it seems Snape brings forth images when he does legilimency, which also works (such seeing the HBP book when legilimensing (is that a word? If not, I guess it is now) Harry after the fight with Draco in the bathroom).

Originally Posted by Fig_Leaf

My thoughts on the pensieve were slightly different. I never assumed that snape was trying to hide the memories from harry, since it probably would have taken more skill than he possessed in the first lesson. I beleived (most likely mistaken) that DD lent the device to snape so that he could get rid of some of the worse memories dealing with james enabling him to better deal with harry.

Hmmm...that's an interesting thought. I hadn't really thought of it in that way, before. So, what you're saying is, maybe Dumbledore was hoping that if Snape spent time with Harry without the worst of his Marauder memories weighing him down, he'd start viewing Harry differently? I think I still believe my theory, that he removed the memories that would cause the most damage if Harry viewed them, but you have an interesting idea!

And welcome, by the way!

Originally Posted by ViperaDarcke

Perhaps Snape thought that if Harry knew about the torture that James put him through he would spread it around the school and make fun of him the way James did.

Yeah, I think that's likely. I wouldn't be surprised if, after Harry's pensieve dive, Snape expected him to at least tell Ron and Hermione about it. You're right; it would definitely blast a hole in the tough exterior of fear he wears around the students; it would be a lot harder for him to get their respect if they knew about his past.

Originally Posted by Severus

What does Evanesco’d mean?

Evanesco is a spell (heh, I originally typed that as 'smell') that removes things. The students (and at least once, Snape) use Evanesco to remove unneeded or worthless potions from their cauldrons.

Originally Posted by mdeligan

By the way, is it just my computer or is page 7 of this thread formatted differently? It is too wide for my monitor.

It's not just you; it's like that for me, too.

Something random about Snape that's been confusing me.... I was wondering; does anyone have any theories on why Snape listened when Sirius told him how to get into the Whomping Willow passage? I mean, on the one hand, I can't see Snape ignoring the information, especially if he really wanted to know what the Marauders were up to. But I can't really believe that Snape would be stupid enough not to assume that there was some sort of trap waiting for him. Maybe he thought he could handle it?

Also, do you think there was a change in Snape's relationship with the Marauders in between SWM and the WW incident? Because it just seems like the two situations are very different.

[april]

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Something random about Snape that's been confusing me.... I was wondering; does anyone have any theories on why Snape listened when Sirius told him how to get into the Whomping Willow passage? I mean, on the one hand, I can't see Snape ignoring the information, especially if he really wanted to know what the Marauders were up to. But I can't really believe that Snape would be stupid enough not to assume that there was some sort of trap waiting for him. Maybe he thought he could handle it?

Also, do you think there was a change in Snape's relationship with the Marauders in between SWM and the WW incident? Because it just seems like the two situations are very different.

I guess I could imagine it being like "meet us at the Whomping Willow and we'll settle this," or Sirius indirectly telling him by talking loudly and ensuring that he was heard.
I think there was a change. Severus went from seeing them as annoying, immature idiots to people capable f putting him really severely at risk. He probably "warned" less (ie the mild sectumsempra) in his attacks, maybe got more harsh. I could see Remus apologizing, though, causing their relationship to be as it is now.

[subtle science]

I don't think that there's a lack of emotion associated with Harry's memories during Occlumency--although perhaps a lack of emphasis on them...which might reflect Snape's overall attitude. Just as he ignores Harry's physical pain, he ignores most of what Harry feels emotionally.

He does tell Harry that "those skilled in Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie" (p. 531, US hardcover). Harry does feel "his heart was bursting with jealousy" when he recalls Dudley's new bicycle (p. 534) and Snape warns him, "to empty yourself of all emotion" (p. 536). I think the emotions are there--but disregarded by Snape, for the most part. It emphasizes, again, that he is not a voyeur, but simply doing a job and he's being as impersonal as a highly personal exercise will allow, giving Harry what very little dignity this lesson can allow.

"what he gave me"...Hmmm...I've used that phrasing interms of a student's essay, but not for a cauldronful of the Draught of Living Death....Slughorn, I think, means it literally: I can't see his 'wasting' all of that potion--that's not in the nature of a user like him............

I also wonder about Snape's following Sirius' instruction to get through the Whomping Willow. Of course, part of my problem is trying to imagien why anyone would take Sirius' advice about anything...*cough*

But I can't see Lupin's apologizing...he's fairly spineless in the flashback and backstory of OotP: it's hard to imagine him so going against what his friends
did. Or Snape's accepting it--but the biggest argument against it is Snape's attitude toward Lupin throughout PoA: he considers Lupin to have been part of Sirius' plan; he certainly does not act like somneone who has ever received an apology for anything--never mind attempted murder. If Lupin apologized, it would've have to have been after the events of PoA--the novel in which Lupin grows up. At the time, at school--very hard to picture that character facing up to what was done....confronting Sirius, probably. But Snape...Mmm. Can't see it, in terms of character or plot.

[DancingMaenid]

Originally Posted by subtle science

He does tell Harry that "those skilled in Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie" (p. 531, US hardcover). Harry does feel "his heart was bursting with jealousy" when he recalls Dudley's new bicycle (p. 534) and Snape warns him, "to empty yourself of all emotion" (p. 536). I think the emotions are there--but disregarded by Snape, for the most part. It emphasizes, again, that he is not a voyeur, but simply doing a job and he's being as impersonal as a highly personal exercise will allow, giving Harry what very little dignity this lesson can allow.

I like your interpretation! I think you may have the right idea, there.

Originally Posted by april

I guess I could imagine it being like "meet us at the Whomping Willow and we'll settle this," or Sirius indirectly telling him by talking loudly and ensuring that he was heard.

I like the possibility that maybe Snape was going to a supposed meeting with the Marauders. That would make some sense. I get the impression, though, that Sirius did tell Snape directly. The way Lupin says it in POA is this:

"Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transforum. Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trun with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me."
POA, American paperback, p 357.

Now, I don't think Lupin actually heard Sirius tell Lupin this, but since Sirius is right there and doesn't correct the telling at all, I think we can assume that that's how it happened. But it doesn't make much sense. I mean, I just can't see the following exchange taking place:

Sirius: Hey, you want to where Lupin goes every month?
Snape: Yeah, I do!
Sirius: Well, just prod the knot under the Whomping Willow with a long stick on full moon. A really neat tunnel will appear, and you can follow it to find Lupin!"
Snape: Cool! Thanks!

I mean, the very idea that Sirius would be willing to betray his friend's secret to their enemy should have been a major red flag to Snape....

Originally Posted by subtle science

But I can't see Lupin's apologizing...he's fairly spineless in the flashback and backstory of OotP: it's hard to imagine him so going against what his friends did.

Yeah, I think I agree with you there. Lupin might have felt bad about what happened, but I don't really see him having the guts to apologize to Snape. Also, I'm not sure that apologizing would necessarily cross his mind, even.

Originally Posted by april

I think there was a change. Severus went from seeing them as annoying, immature idiots to people capable f putting him really severely at risk. He probably "warned" less (ie the mild sectumsempra) in his attacks, maybe got more harsh. I could see Remus apologizing, though, causing their relationship to be as it is now.

My theory is that the Marauder-Snape rivalry became gradually became worse until the WW incident. What I'm thinking is that after SWM, things became especially agressive on both sides, and maybe took a more violent turn away from publicly humiliating Snape to more both sides aiming to hurt each other. What I'm thinking is that after the WW incident, everyone got a bit shaken, and things calmed down somewhat.

[Chievrefueil]

Interesting quotes mdeligan and I like your new signature. Is the black cat a spy?

Originally Posted by subtle science

I don't think that there's a lack of emotion associated with Harry's memories during Occlumency--although perhaps a lack of emphasis on them...which might reflect Snape's overall attitude. Just as he ignores Harry's physical pain, he ignores most of what Harry feels emotionally.

He does tell Harry that "those skilled in Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie" (p. 531, US hardcover). Harry does feel "his heart was bursting with jealousy" when he recalls Dudley's new bicycle (p. 534) and Snape warns him, "to empty yourself of all emotion" (p. 536). I think the emotions are there--but disregarded by Snape, for the most part. It emphasizes, again, that he is not a voyeur, but simply doing a job and he's being as impersonal as a highly personal exercise will allow, giving Harry what very little dignity this lesson can allow.

I didn't mean to suggest that Snape should have acknowledged Harry's emotions--I agree with you that it would be out of character for him in this situation. I didn't even think that Harry was described with emotions about the memories, though; but, I see I was wrong about that because he is described as jealous about the new bike. I suppose that we're supposed to infer Harry's emotions regarding the other memories, since it would be a waste of space in the book to describe them all in detail. . .

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

I get the impression, though, that Sirius did tell Snape directly. The way Lupin says it in POA is this:

"Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transforum. Sirius thought it would be--er--amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trun with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me."
POA, American paperback, p 357.

Now, I don't think Lupin actually heard Sirius tell Lupin this, but since Sirius is right there and doesn't correct the telling at all, I think we can assume that that's how it happened. But it doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't really make sense to me that Snape would have trusted Black's word either, but there was no reason to think it dangerous--no reason to think Black's intention might be to seriously harm him. Snape had no idea that Lupin was a werewolf and there was no reason to think that the tunnel under the Whomping Willow was dangerous itself, since that's where Lupin went. As far as Snape would know, the only thing he was risking was looking stupid (for following Black's advice) and being whacked by the Whomping Willow. Perhaps he just thought it was worth a try on the off-chance that Black was telling him the truth. . .

[random_musing]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

*Channels Paris Hilton* Thats hot.

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Something random about Snape that's been confusing me.... I was wondering; does anyone have any theories on why Snape listened when Sirius told him how to get into the Whomping Willow passage? I mean, on the one hand, I can't see Snape ignoring the information, especially if he really wanted to know what the Marauders were up to. But I can't really believe that Snape would be stupid enough not to assume that there was some sort of trap waiting for him. Maybe he thought he could handle it?

The thing I've been trying to figure out for months now! I truely have no idea. The only way that I ever could see Snape falling for that is if Sirius faked a conversation with one of the marauders and brought up how to get into the whomping willow so that Snape would overhear it...but this is not the case because it says that Sirius actually told Snape which I assumed to mean told Snape directly so I'm really not sure.

Also, do you think there was a change in Snape's relationship with the Marauders in between SWM and the WW incident? Because it just seems like the two situations are very different.

By change what do you mean? A positive change or an even more negative one? I don't think that they got along between that time or anything if thats what you're proposing.

[DancingMaenid]

Originally Posted by random_musing

By change what do you mean? A positive change or an even more negative one? I don't think that they got along between that time or anything if thats what you're proposing.

I don't really know if it would be negative or positive, though my bet is negative. It's just that it seems in SWM they don't really do anything that could kill him, and it's more geared towards humiliating him in public. But then you have the WW incident, which at the very least would frighten Snape, and at the very worst, kill him. And it's not really something they'd could play up for entertainment value, either, since so much relies on keeping the WW passage a secret.

[random_musing]

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

I don't really know if it would be negative or positive, though my bet is negative. It's just that it seems in SWM they don't really do anything that could kill him, and it's more geared towards humiliating him in public. But then you have the WW incident, which at the very least would frighten Snape, and at the very worst, kill him. And it's not really something they'd could play up for entertainment value, either, since so much relies on keeping the WW passage a secret.

Their hatred for each other probably escalated to horrible proportions between SWM and the WW incident IMO. I dont' think Sirius' intention was to kill him though...but if you really think about it is Sirius one to really think through something like this as a teenager? He was probably quite impulsive I think.

[mdeligan]

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil

Interesting quotes mdeligan and I like your new signature. Is the black cat a spy?

- Could be. Mrs. Norris is quite the spy, isn't she? I have this picture on my wall and just love the facial expression and posture of the cat. There is a constant appearance of cats in HP and Rowling has said the following about them in the October 16, 2000, interview through scholastic.com. This was right after GOF.

Question: Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.)
J.K. Rowling responds: Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry.

Have we learned anything new about cats since GOF?

I believe the title is "Turn of the Black Cat." On the theme of cats and spying I'll use my rather annoyed looking black cat - chat noir - to represent the often annoyed and black-wearing Severus Snape. Severus noir. Or, "Turn of Severus Snape" - to the Order, of course. Maybe this is the look Snape gave Dumbledore when asked to give Occlumency lessons to Harry. To me, this cat looks like he is ready to spring into action, but not exactly pleased about it. Sounds like Snape!

Here is a short summary about the picture:

La tournée du Chat Noir avec Rodolphe Salis is painter and illustrator Théophile Steinlen's most famous poster. His decorous black cat became the symbol of Le Chat Noir, the Paris café-cabaret where concerts and recitals by chansonniers were held, as well as shadow plays. Steinlen's poster announces a tour by this 'théâtre d'ombres' in 1896.

http://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/1015-new...d=328&cat_id=4

Originally Posted by Darth_Raven

It's funny you should mention that, mdeligan!

I was just thinking about the Trojan War and how it was won. Not with the bravery and valour of the numorous dunderheads who were after Helen and glory. But with the subversive measure of the Trojan Horse which came from the mind of Odysseus. On a side note I prefer The Odyssey over The Iliad.

I've vaguely familiar with the Trojan War but any further comment will be an ostentatious display of my ignorance on the matter. As usual I will have to rely on The Mythic Tarot which uses Greek myth to explain the cards. In this version, the authors use Helen for the Queen of Cups. I think it is possible to connect Lily with the Queen of Cups, much as I have done with Snape as the King of Cups. In the book there is no connection between the Queen and King of Cups, especially the latter who is avoidant of emotional entanglement out of fear of the pain of loss, but the description of the Queen of Cups allows room for seeing connections between Lily and Severus. I think this excerpt from The Mythic Tarot reminds me of Lily because it portrays a woman who is ultimately a mystery, as Lily is still to us. Another thing I like about this description is that it introduces a simple but elegant explanation of what would make Lily so attractive to men: they see in her what they want to see, what they most want to see. It reminds me of the Mirror of Erised, not just in the parallels of why there is an attraction, but also that water can function like a mirror in that they both reflect what comes before them. And the Queen of Cups is associated with the element of water and emotions. There is the often debated question of whether a person becomes attracted to someone who is just like him (a regular mirror), or if he is drawn to someone who has what he wants (the Mirror of Erised). Opposites attract would be another form of this theme. But since some of us have become attached to Snape as the Gothic hero, the one who takes a chivalrous vow, etc., I'll guess that he would be attracted (but not necessarily act on it) to someone who represents what he wants but does not have, rather than someone who is just like him. Perhaps this is the same for Remus Lupin who was fond of Lily and is seen with Tonks at the end of HBP.

What intrigues me about this *possible* description of Lily (as Helen) - my opinion about the similarities - is that the authors are not saying in their interpretation of Helen that she is actually all of these things that men see in her. Like the Mirror of Erised, she only reflects what is desired; she doesn't necessarily have those qualities in real life. And to some degree I think Dumbledore has this quality as well, but in a platonic, masculine way. I think that is why so many, including Snape, are willing to go along with Dumbledore because his personality (and intelligence) helps them see what they are capable of, that they can be more than what they are because he sees their potential when they do not.

Queen of Cups: Helen of Troy

Here, in the card of the Queen of Cups, we meet, the stable, containing, introverted depths of the element of water - the private inner world of feeling which is bottomless and ultimately unfathomable.

Helen, the Queen of Cups, is more than an image of alluring feminine beauty. She embodies the hypnotic power of the feminine world of the feelings, a power which is magical and magnetic and defies a mere physical perfection. Throughout Helen's story, countless men pursue her; yet we never really know from the tales what Helen herself wanted, or what sort of woman she really was. It is as though she herself is water, and all men see in her the reflection of the depths of their own souls. She is a cypher, a mystery, motivated by her own secret purposes and feelings. <snip> [W]e are left with the feeling that, passionate though she might be, Helen does nothing that she does not wish to do.

Whomever she loves, Helen gives herself to wholeheartedly. She conquers men without trying, because she is the embodiment of all the secret unconscious fantasies of the perfect women that men have attempted to articulate over the ages. The figure of Helen is both virginal and a charlot, a calculator and a victim. In short, she is a mass of paradoxes.

The Queen of Cups is elusive as a charcter, yet she stirs up trouble wherever she goes, activating the depths in others and inaugurating action and conflict without doing anything at all. Thus she may be seen as an image of the unconscious, pursuing its secret purposes unbeknownst to the conscious mind, yet luring the individual into crisis and conflict and intense passion and fate through its mysterious seductive power.

For the man who is unaware of the depths of his own soul, and bases his reality on rational thought and concrete facts, the Queen of Cups heralds a deepening and development of the inner life.

Originally Posted by Darth_Raven

Anyway, great post and nice sig!

Thank you!

[subtle science]

I've always found it very difficult to believe that Sirius didn't know exactly what he was doing in sending Snape to the Willow. He's sending Snape, alone, down a tunnel, ignorant of what lies in front of him, so that he will be caught completely unaware...Sirius is quite impulsive and has about zero judgment, but he's not dim.

Nor does he deny, excuse, or attempt to explain further when Lupin refers to the "trick on him which nearly killed him." In fact, Sirius' response is the exceptionally chilling, "It served him right" (p. 356, US paper).

At best, Sirius wanted Snape badly injured. His intentions were far beyond mere impulse--especially since he told Snape how to get past the Willow. He seemed to be operating quite deliberately, in hopes of eliminating Snape.

Why Snape would give a half minute's notice to Sirius is beyond me...But I think at the core of it has to be Snape's assumption that even a Marauder, even Sirius, could not possibly have intended such malice--an assumption that Snape, obviously, finds was quite wrong. And he even phrases it tellingly years later: "your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet" (p. 285) and "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen....You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" (p. 391). Clearly, he knew what the intended result was, and his word choice is very revealing when he describes Sirius as 'showing' he was "capable" of that result. It indicates to me that Snape did not think this of Sirius before the Willow--as much as he loathed him, it didn't go that far. After the Willow--Snape's got the idea: Sirius would have let him die; he had arranged it as a distinct possibility.