The Latter-day Saint Thread v. 8.0

[Lash Dresden]

Thread Rules 1. Please treat other members with respect. There will be no bashing of other members or their ideas. If you disagree with somone please do so without condescension or bickering. 2. Staff reserves the right to ban members from this thread either permanently or temporarily if we feel they are not following these rules. You will be given a warning via owl or via official warning points before you are asked to leave the thread.

The Official Staff Monitor for this thread is Lash Dresden. If you have any questions about the thread or would like to discuss a specific problem please owl them directly. Please be aware that other staff members will also be monitoring this thread. If you are warned by another staff member, as always contact them directly or contact an Admin.

Welcome to the new version of the LDS thread. The previous version is here.

This thread is for discussion relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (also known as "Mormons" - but we don't call ourselves that).

The rules:
1. This is not a debate thread.
2. This is not a chat thread.
3. Discussion of topics with the potential to offend others should take place in LJ rather than here - this is first and formost a Harry Potter forum and we appreciate having an area here to discuss our faith.
4. If anyone has questions about the beliefs of the LDS church, feel free to ask them here or to owl myself or Pegasus (or probably any of the other regulars, but I didn't ask them for permission to volunteer them. If anybody else wants to be available to answer questions, please shout out and make it known.)
5. Last, but certainly not least, please read the story on page 68 of the new Ensign and follow that very good example.

These rules are subject to being added upon, edited, etc. as needed.

Let the discussion begin.

Am I the only one who just barely realized that General Conference is next week? I knew it was on the 1st and 2nd, and I knew the 1st is next Saturday, but somehow those two thoughts just now congealed in my brain. I can't wait.

[Pegasus]

I would just like to add one thing:
Be respectful. Of the staff, of fellow forum members, of other threads. I think we would all like to focus on the Gospel of Peace and keep a good spirit in here.
And a big thank you to Morgoth.

General Conference didn't sneak up on me because I have to work around it with my ward choir. I'm really excited, too. I love the feelings of hope and encouragement and love for everyone that emanate from our prophet and leaders.
Ladies, if you missed Women's Conference, catch it. The General Relief Society President is on the cover of the last Church News, immunizing children in Africa and comforting a frightened little boy. Going from that article to her talk in Women's Conference was very touching.
The whole thing seemed to focus on forgiving ourselves and others, and letting your best be enough. I can't wait for it to come out in print.

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

The rules:
1. This is not a debate thread.
2. This is not a chat thread.
3. Discussion of topics with the potential to offend others should take place in LJ rather than here - this is first and formost a Harry Potter forum and we appreciate having an area here to discuss our faith.
4. If anyone has questions about the beliefs of the LDS church, feel free to ask them here or to owl myself or Pegasus (or probably any of the other regulars, but I didn't ask them for permission to volunteer them. If anybody else wants to be available to answer questions, please shout out and make it known.)
5. Last, but certainly not least, please read the story on page 68 of the new Ensign and follow that very good example.

These rules are subject to being added upon, edited, etc. as needed.

/signed

[crookshanks1177]

Originally Posted by Rapunzel

This thread is for discussion relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (also known as "Mormons" - but we don't call ourselves that).

Just curiosity, but why do you not call yourselves Mormans? Is that this thread in particular, or in general? Anyone I have met personally refers to themselves as Mormans, so that just confused me a bit.

Also thank you for the kind invite Rapunzel, I'm sure I'll pop in from time to time with oddball questions.

[Lash Dresden]

We don't use the name "Mormon" or "Mormons" because it doesn't identify who we are and what we believe. Plenty of people (in and out of the church) still use it. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" isn't as easy to say (or type) but that's who we are. Probably 5 or 6 years ago the Church leaders asked us to start using the correct name when discussing the Church. It creates less confusion. We're not the church of Mormon, we don't worship anyone named Mormon (Mormon was a prophet and historian who lived about 400 A.D. and compiled about 1,000 years of records into what we now have as the Book of Mormon - which is where the name came from).

Feel free to pop in any time you want.

[agpotter]

I think the reason most people refer to us and themselves as Mormons is because when you tell someone you're LDS, they give you this look. Then, you indicate that we've also in the past been known as Mormons, and they understand.

I also was quite surprised when I realized the General Conference is approaching so rapidly. I always hope that something really important and serious will be announced or discussed, and there usually is. I like how they reiterate a lot of the important and prevalent issues in the church, but sometimes it seems like they could get a little more into some issues that are big in today's society, almost like they don't want to take sides or something (which is probably a good idea, in many cases, like they've done with politics). Anywho, here's hoping for a great conference.

And yes, thanks, Morgoth, for letting our thread go back up. It's much appreciated, and I do apologize if my misunderstood comments had anything to do with its closing.

[Pegasus]

In general, the Church remains politically neutral. I don't remember whether it was Joseph Smith or Brigham Young (?), but someone early on made the statement, when asked how they governed the people, "We teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."
I realize everyone gets what they need out of Conference, depending on what the Spirit teaches them, but ever since I have become discouraged about the world I am raising my children in, Conference seems to be all about encouragement, and assuring us that this generation is stronger than ever before.

[agpotter]

That's true. And you're right about being politically neutral, it allows agency. The trouble lies, I think, in when moral issues become political because of society, so the church is tentative to discuss it in great detail.

[Potters Goblet]

Here's my question. And it IS an honest question, not meant to start a debate or an argument. it is meant for my own understanding as a person of faith that is not LDS.

Okay LDS/Mormons (whichever you prefer) have The Book of Mormon. So here's really a flurry of questions I need to ask to understand who you are and where you come from religiously speaking.

1) do you also read and/or worship from The Bible? By that I mean are the BOOK OF MORMON and Bible "companion books"? (for lack of a better definition) Perhaps maybe describe the book of mormon's role in the church so that I'll understand it. The reason why I ask this question is the scripture in The Bible that talks about not adding to or taking away from the text of The Bible. While not a direct addition, it strikes a lot of Christians as BEING an addition to The Bible and flies in the face of that scripture. So I'd like to give an opportunity for an explanation so that people can stop hating on this issue. It's not exactly clear to me but maybe if somebody can EXPLAIN it, it will be more clear. Essentially this question can be boiled down as "How important is The Bible to you?"

2) As with most religions, there are LDS offshoots that still hold to a lot of early beliefs, such as poligamy. However, As I understand it the RECOGNIZED LDS stance on Poligamy is that it's no longer accepted. Is this true or false?

3) When I was in school, I had a close friend that was Mormon/LDS. She could not each chocolate or drink caffienated beverages. When I asked her why she said she didn't know. Just said that the church did not allow it. Why is this?

4) In the view of Mormonism, as I understand it Joseph Smith was/is recognized as quite the great prophet. Where does that put Jesus Christ in the scheme of things?

Are there any basic beliefs as they relate to Christ that are different in LDS than say baptistism or some other "Christ-centric" religion? (for example, would a LDS person believe Jesus had a mohawk whereas others believe he had a bowl cut or something.... (just as a wild example))

Okay I think that's all for now. Like I said I don't want to offend anyone. My questions aren't designed to put anyone on the defensive or to feel attacked. I'm just fishing for understanding....

[agpotter]

VERY good questions, and there are definitely very good answers. I hope I'm able to fill you in, and that the others will fill in the gaps where I've missed something that needs to be said or specified. "You can also find out a great deal more, and probably more at lds.org, the Church's official website and mormon.org, another church-sponsored website with answers to common questions, and basic beliefs outlined.

1) Yes, we definitely believe and read The Bible. One of our 13 articles of faith states that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God, as far as it is translated correctly, and that we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God. You were right, we think of them as companion books of sorts, the Book of Mormon being Another Testament of Jesus Christ (the Bible being the first). The Book of Mormon reiterates everything the Bible says, and clarifies and reinforces it. We don't take away or add to the Bible, it is a book of scripture in itself, but the Book of Mormon is an additional, separate book. They work quite well together, as a set of scriptures, and many things can be cross-referenced. As for the Book of Mormon's role in the church, it's basically another set of scriptures, but written down by other prophets, and talks about Christ's visit to the Americas after his Resurrection. I hope this clarifies your confusion, but if it doesn't, you're definitely welcome to ask more questions so this is clear. You're right, a lot of people take issue with the Book of Mormon being the Word of God, but it really does make sense, and doesn't contradict any Biblical passages, when you understand it. Essentially, to answer your question, the Bible is VERY important to us. The Book of Mormon is also very important, but it doesn't diminish how valuable the Bible and its teachings are.

2) Yes, there are many LDS sects that have practice radical or outdated beliefs, and it's important that they not be clumped with the general LDS church. It is definitely true that polygamy is no longer a practice approved by the LDS church, and those who practice it are doing so without the approval of church leadership and against church doctrine. Click here for more information, including President Hinckley's official statement on the subject.

3) In the church we have what is called the Word of Wisdom, a set of instructions on healthy living habits, which include not drinking, smoking, taking drugs, and having "hot drinks" and excessive amounts of caffeine. It is suggested (but not required) that we avoid caffeinated drinks, mostly because of the stimulating effect that too much caffeine can have. This is not a commandment, but it is strongly recommended, and a few go so far as to say that we shouldn't eat chocolate because it often has caffeine in it. It's funny, because most of my friends and family love chocolate and many of them also drink Coke, Dr. Pepper, etc. It's too bad your friend was blindly following, not really even knowing why she was doing what she was doing. There are definitely reasons behind these things, the leaders don't just make them up.

4) Joseph Smith is the boy that received a vision of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, instructing him to restore Christ's church on the earth. He is the first prophet of the Latter Days, and translated the Book of Mormon, as well as receiving many revelations for the saints in his day and for the saints of the days thereafter (which would be even now). While Joseph Smith was an incredible part of the restoration, the entire process was to bring people to Christ. Joseph Smith is not a god, and not a Savior, but was used as an instrument in the Lord's hands to bring the truth to the world and the people to their Savior. To answer your question, Jesus Christ is the center and the peak of the scheme of things, the real reason for our faith and, ideally, the real focus of our hearts.

I'm probably not familiar enough with the other religions to make statements about them, but as far as I know the main difference is the beliefs about the Trinity, the nature and characteristics of God and Jesus Christ, and who we can become, and details about the afterlife. Not sure about the haircut and all that.

*whew!* That's pretty long-winded of me, but I hope I answered some of your questions. Let us know if I haven't, and of course, the other LDS on here, feel free to fill in anything I've missed.

Also, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your coming forward with questions like this. Understanding is key.

[The Pirate King]

I don't really have much to add to agpotter's comments, but I did want to talk a bit about adding to or taking away from Biblical books.

First, the Bible is absolutely vital to our religion and our worship. There are religious narratives and doctrines which appear only in the books of the Bible, and it is difficult to understand the social context of the people in the Book of Mormon unless one has read and is familiar with the Bible. It is sacred scripture, and is precious to us.

I have read the Bible verses to which you refer, about not adding to or removing from the text; the primary one appears in Revelation 22:18-19:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

That's a pretty serious charge--that if you add to the book, you will have plagues added upon your head; if you remove things from the book, you will lose your salvation. Here's another such verse:
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

This verse appears in the book of Deuteronomy, the fifth book of the Old Testament. If read and interpreted literally, it would mean everything in the Bible from the book of Joshua onward was blasphemous--but that wouldn't make logical sense, so that can't be what the writer meant.

Both these scriptures make more sense if one remembers that the word "Bible" comes from the Greek biblion or "books." The Bible is a collection of holy books, composed at different times and in different places by different authors, brought together as a sacred history. When these separate books were originally written, the book of scripture which we call the Bible had not yet been compiled. When Moses composed the book of Deuteronomy, he warned the people not to add to or take away from the words God had commanded him to write there. Likewise, when John wrote the book now called Revelation, he warned others against making additions or deletions to this vision of the last days. These scriptures do not seem to contain injunctions against other books of scripture as much as they are injunctions against tampering with the original writings in which they appear.

The Book of Mormon is not meant to supplant the Bible. It is a record of a different people in another land. We believe that it affirms and supports Biblical truths, and brings to light other truths which were once known but have subsequently been lost.

This ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would be! Thanks for your patience with my extreme long-windedness.

[Ginny1976]

First, YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!! we're back on!!
And then to also add a tiny bit to those great questions.... TPK, you said all that I wanted to say but couldn't find the right words or scripture to back it up.
And then about Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ...
Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone of our religion. We would not have a church otherwise. Joseph Smith is like any other prophet that lived in biblical times. Just like Moses, Abraham, Israel, Peter and Paul, Joseph Smith was the mouthpiece for God. He was just the one chosen to bring back the full restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Christ had it upon the earth in His time. And then after Jospeh was killed, the prophetic calling continued with Brigham Young, by recieving the necessary 'keys' to fulfill the calling, by the general assent of the quroum of the twelve apostles, but most importantly, by the assent of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. And then when Brigham Young died, another Prophet was chosen and on and on until today. So yes, Joseph Smith was a great Prophet for us, whom we say did more for the salvation of men save Jesus Chirst only, but he is not Christ. No one can replace Him.

And you can go here to know about him!

Oh and Thank you Morgoth!

[Pegasus]

Regarding the next prophet being chosen: There is no election. We believe that our prophet is called by God.
Edit: And now I'm going to answer the inevitable question. I'll make it as easy to follow as possible, but I know some newer members who still don't get it.
We believe that Heavenly Father's house is a house of order. As such, our church is highly organized.
We have the First Presidency--the President and his 1st and 2nd Counselors--then we have the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. All hold the Priesthood keys to run our church, but only the President has the authority to act as President. When the President dies, those keys are already held by all the apostles, and the entire Quorum functions as a whole as the head of our Church until the next apostle in the order they were called is officially set apart to be the next President. So the next prophet is, in a way, called way ahead of time. Because presidency only ends in death, and other apostles die in the meantime, the next prophet is completly in Heavenly Father's hands.
The apostles aren't however, little prophets-in-waiting. They have essential jobs and are extremely busy. They travel all around the world and around the country.
Sorry for the extremely long-winded addition. These are all questions that came up last time, so I thought I'd try to explain it all in one blow.

[Potters Goblet]

Originally Posted by agpotter

Also, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your coming forward with questions like this. Understanding is key.

Like Creflo Dollar is so fond of saying (and it does come from The Bible) "In all your getting, get Understanding...." :-D

And I Just wanted to say to everybody, thanks for taking my questions seriously. Thanks for not just running me off or thinking that I'm trying to be a pest. I get curious about things and I naturally want to know. So I hope that my ignorance didn't offend anyone and I am endlessly grateful for your willingness to share in such an intimate personal relationship.....

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by The Pirate King

The Book of Mormon is not meant to supplant the Bible. It is a record of a different people in another land. We believe that it affirms and supports Biblical truths, and brings to light other truths which were once known but have subsequently been lost.

Who are these other people, PK? Where do they come from and how do they relate to the Biblical characters we are all familiar with? I've always had the impression the Book of Mormon was an alternate version of Biblical history, but that would be incorrect from what I'm reading here.

Why do you think Joseph Smith is rejected as a prophet by most of the older Christian denominations?

[Ginny1976]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Why do you think Joseph Smith is rejected as a prophet by most of the older Christian denominations?

Because he was a 14 year old boy who claimed to have seen the Father and the Son. To the world, the heavens were closed. Revelation and visitations didn't come anymore. End of subject. Who did he think he was, at 14, to say that he recieved revelation when all the 'great' religious minds of that time knew it all? They couldn't be wrong. So Joseph was wrong. And who would the people believe. A 14 year old boy with out an education or an educated Clergy?
"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed thier heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." Isaiah 29:13-14.

Thank you Purp for giving me the opportunity to bear you my testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I can go to bed very happy and feeling fulfilled now!

Oh and thank you, Peg! We all make up for what another lacks! So between all of us regulars here, we'll come to a thorough answer!

[Pegasus]

I'm going to do my best with these questions. I'm not sure who else is around, but please feel free to elaborate.
The best explanation of the Book of Mormon comes from the Introduction of the book itself, found here. I was going to type out a paragraph or two, but realized the actual link would be much more beneficial.
Joseph Smith was 14 years old when he was so confused by all the ministers around him and the differences in all their respective religions that he decided to go to the Lord for help. He found the scripture in the Bible that says "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5) So he did it. He went to a grove near his home and prayed. He didn't expect a vision, but he got one. He was 14 years old. The ministers he told didn't believe him. Some thought it was the work of the devil. He was heaped with persecutions all his life until he was martyred in Carthage Jail. Those who hated him thought that was the end of "the Mormons." That was almost 200 years ago (this year is the 200th birthday of Joseph Smith). The Church has grown to almost all nations, over 100 temples, and...someone will have to help with the current numbers of Church membership. It was over 11 million 3 years ago.
To learn more about him, you can follow the link given earlier.
Edit: Okay, so Ginny beat me to it!

[purplehawk]

Thanks, Ginny and Peg. The Pirate King said the Book of Mormon depicts a "different people in another land." Who are these people? Do they tie in in any way with the well-known people in the Bible?

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

The best explanation of the Book of Mormon comes from the Introduction of the book itself, found here. I was going to type out a paragraph or two, but realized the actual link would be much more beneficial.

This link will tell you who the people are.

[missypotter]

Originally Posted by Potters Goblet

So I hope that my ignorance didn't offend anyone and I am endlessly grateful for your willingness to share in such an intimate personal relationship.....

Thanks for realizing these are personal and sacred topics to us. It makes it easy to explain our beliefs when there is such respect.

Thanks Morgoth for a new beginning.