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Underground Lake #28: Part 3 - Harry and the Horcruxes



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  #1  
Old October 16th, 2005, 8:22 am
navygreen  Female.gif navygreen is offline
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Underground Lake #28: Part 3 - Harry and the Horcruxes

Discussion for The Underground Lake #28: Part 3 - Harry and the Horcruxes by Brandon Ford.


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  #2  
Old October 16th, 2005, 9:07 am
RvnclwRules  Female.gif RvnclwRules is offline
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Great editorial!

Okay, I replied with this on here for the recent Two Way Mirror editorial too, but I think it merits mentioning in any "Is Harry a Horcrux?" debate.

One thing you didn't mention was a conversation in CoS that, to me, clinched the entire thing. When Harry notices all the similarities between Riddle and himself, Dumbledore tells him that something strange happened when the killing curse rebounded.

"He put a bit of himself in me?" -Harry
"It certainly seems so." -Dumbledore (pg 333 American PB)


After reading HBP and then rereading CoS, this short exchange takes on a whole new meaning.

I think that Harry is a Horcrux, but until we know how they are destroyed, we can’t know for sure what this implies. Dumbledore's “gleam of triumph” could be that Voldemort took Harry’s blood to sustain him and thus poured more of that portion of his soul back into his body (JKR did say in Emerson's interview that the "gleam" is still very important). Therefore the Horcrux in Harry will be weaker and be able to be destroyed more easily. Perhaps without killing Harry himself, like may have to be done with Nagini. Then again, if Harry's Horcrux is weaker, then Voldemort's bodily Horcrux is stronger.

So why didn't Dumbledore tell Harry that he could be one? Maybe he doesn't think it is possible. But until Baby Harry survived the AK Curse, no one knew that it was possible to survive. That particular event is a mystery to even the greatest magical minds. I don't think Dumbledore knows that Harry is a Horcrux.

I do, however, think that Lord Voldemort knows that Harry is one. Who else can be possessed from a long distance and has a peculiar connection with the villian? Only Nagini, it seems. But the bizarre "connection" of the two main characters and LV's knowledge of it makes me think that he will be more "in the know" than Harry in the final battle. Perhaps this will be the only thing that will give Harry a snowball's chance in hell to defeat him. Because why would Voldemort kill Harry if it will destroy his last Horcrux?


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Old October 16th, 2005, 9:37 am
SnuffleShanks  Female.gif SnuffleShanks is offline
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I think you made a very good point about the different levels of magical skills between Harry and LV...I never thought of Harry using the veil as a means to destroy them all, but it seems like a very likely possibility. I'm still undecided about the Is Harry a Horcrux? theory, but you've definately got me thinking about it being true now...I can't wait until Book 7! Good Editorial!!!


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Old October 16th, 2005, 9:45 am
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[quote=RvnclwRules]

One thing you didn't mention was a conversation in CoS that, to me, clinched the entire thing. When Harry notices all the similarities between Riddle and himself, Dumbledore tells him that something strange happened when the killing curse rebounded.

"He put a bit of himself in me?" -Harry
"It certainly seems so." -Dumbledore (pg 333 American PB)

QUOTE]
I have to agree with with RvnclwRules that the bit of himself that Voldemort put into Harry is part of his soul thus making Harry a Horcrux. After carefully reading the prophesy I came to the conclusion that Harry would need to die to finally destroy Voldemort and the introduction of Horcruxes in HBP confirmed it for me.

I also have a theory that Regulus Blacks' accomplice may have been Kreacher. I remember reading an article on this possibility several weeks ago but cannot remember where or who wrote it. My apologies to the author of this article.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 11:52 am
hermionefan01  Female.gif hermionefan01 is offline
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I was thinking that maybe Regulus' accomplice was Slughorn. Consider: he knows all about horcruxes, dodges Dumblesdore's questions about the death eaters - see the editorial Horace Slughorn, Death eater by Harry Seeker on mugglenet for details. His mysterious past and copious knowledge are great factors e.g. Dumbledore recognises Slughorn's 'considerable talents' as attractions for the death-eater-recruitment-squad and frankly, there's just something mysterious about him we don't know about.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 12:49 pm
Alana  Female.gif Alana is offline
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why is everyone assuming RAB is regulus black?????? no one knows for sure so we everyone pls stop assuming!!!

if harry is a horcrux then how do u know that harry dying will destroy the horcrux. i agree that if he went through th veil then th horcrux wud b destroyed but there are prob other ways of destroying it that dont equal a dead harry

good article though!


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Old October 16th, 2005, 1:02 pm
andie000  Female.gif andie000 is offline
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Nice editorial. I've been thinking along very similar lines ever since re-reading HBP. I am hoping however, that Harry may not need to die, even if he is a Horcrux. I am going by the assumption also that DD may have had an inkling that Harry could be one. Why he didn't tell him...the main reason is that he wasn't absolutely sure and the fact that this knowledge could maybe hinder Harry's progress with the other Horcruxes (after all - it will be a pretty scary realisation). DD was very specific that he wanted to know Harry's opinion on whether Nagini might be the last Horcrux. In fact, during the whole conversation he emphasised that he was interested in what Harry thought, almost as if urging him to think independently and maybe one day come to the realisation himself.

Why do I believe that Harry may survive, nevertheless? When he asks DD whether their journeys into LV's background will help him to survive, DD tells him that he certainly hopes so. Maybe the piece of soul can be forced out by a living, thinking wizard and maybe the way to do so has something to to with love and pity. After all, LV couldn't possess Harry for long in the MoM because of his pure soul. Maybe thus Harry will be able to finally rid himself of the piece he's been harbouring since he was one year old. We'll see.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 1:52 pm
alithegeek  Undisclosed.gif alithegeek is offline
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one thing i don't quite understand...

how does v-m's soul split when his AK rebounds from harry to him? he hasn't murdered harry as he planned, and i thought that is what was necessary to split the soul.

i really do believe that harry is a horcrux, but that v-m doesn't know that, because so many things in the books would make sense... but every time i ponder this theory i come up with so many 'buts' and unexplainable exceptions, it makes me want to pull my hair out!

e.g... if harry is horcrux #6, then why hasn't v-m made another horcrux up until now, especially if he's unaware that harry is one? he wants to have 7 bits of his soul floating around b/c he thinks it is a magically powerful number. if harry is one but v-m doesn't know it, then he is only aware of 5 horcruxes, and i can't see v-m just leaving it at that...

unless he is still planning on using harry's murder to make his 7th????

gah!! see, i can't stop going in circles!

also, if there really are 7 bits of his soul out there does that make v-m superpowerful like he thought it would? i wonder if that's just his superstition or if having 7 soul fragments would make him extra-magical or something...


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Old October 16th, 2005, 2:01 pm
Henrietta_B  Female.gif Henrietta_B is offline
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Before I read this editorial, I thought the 'Harry is a Horcrux' theory was indeed ludicrous...but, now...


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Old October 16th, 2005, 2:28 pm
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I love all your editorials, but I think you contradicted yourself on this one. You pointed out the reasons Harry could not be a horcrux and then went on to call him one. I think the "maniacally evil" Jo has been leading us down the garden path, and will soon be pulling the rug out from underneath us, leaving us all with egg on our face.

I think that, that theory is much too simple and unbelievable for our storyteller. She has spread the seeds out there and planted all the ideas, but I think not all the "seeds" are readily identified. Remember the trouble Hermione had with Ancient Runes, and she is very smart. We are just poor peasants looking for a handout from Jo and jumping on "every little crumb" she throws us. Now watch me be completely wrong, but somehow I don't think so. Remember the discussions on the covers of HBP and how off they were, and we even had pictures for help!!


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Old October 16th, 2005, 2:39 pm
Illythia  Female.gif Illythia is offline
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Arrgh, I hate this theory so much. Why did you have to make it so feasible? Up 'til now all I've read is totally illogical. Well, now I have no idea. I guess it's a real possibility.

I just find it strange that Dumbledore didn't know...because I really believe he would tell Harry. He promised to tell Harry the truth about the Voldemort situation (if not some other things, like Malfoy). Then again, perhaps he didn't want to believe it, like me.

Also, in order to create a Horcrux you have to commit murder. The murder failed. Voldemort didn't even murder himself, because to rip your soul you have to kill a person and WANT to kill a person. He most certainly did not want to kill himself. This could just be semantics, though. The fact that he wanted to kill and did kill, despite it not being the intended target, might be good enough for JKR.

The number one problem I've always had with this is why is Voldemort trying to kill Harry, then? And YES, he IS. If DD hadn't shown up in the MoM, he would have.

Basically, we're asked to assume that neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort knows Harry's scar is a Horcrux. Other than that, it makes quite a bit of sense.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 2:41 pm
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Quote:
Posted by alithegeek:
how does v-m's soul split when his AK rebounds from harry to him? he hasn't murdered harry as he planned, and i thought that is what was necessary to split the soul.
But Voldemort had already killed James and Lilly before then, so murder had been committed. Plus, although Harry didn't die, Voldemort's body did. Perhaps suicide can split your soul just as well as taking the life of someone else.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 3:06 pm
Maia_Black  Female.gif Maia_Black is offline
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I love all of your awsome editorials, but there were some inconsistancies in this one.

I don't see how Voldie could have "marked" all of his victims when he was planning on making Horcruxes. Remember, he didn't even know how to make Horcruxes when he killed his family. When he was asking Slughorn about them, he had on Marvolo's ring. Plus, I think that the police would have noticed if all of the Riddles had lightning-bolt marks on them; their bodies were said to be unmarked. The same goes for all of Voldemort's other victims. So, I think that your point and click theory must be wrong, at least in this instance, because ol' Tom couldn't have made any Horcruxes until after his conversation with Slughorn.

Anyway, if Harry *were* a Horcrux, he would be replacing Nagini, not the something of Ravenclaw's. According to Dumbledore, Voldemort didn't have Nagini until after he came back from "the dead." Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldie makes his sixth Horcrux after he failed to make one with Harry. So, either Dumbledore was entirely wrong about Nagini, and she isn't a Horcrux, or Voldie didn't realize that Harry was a Horcrux and made Nagini one, meaning that he now has seven Horcruxes instead of the six that he originally intended.

As far as the crack on Marvolo's ring being the mark of the Horcrux, the theory is interesting, but I don't think it can be right. The ring didn't have the crack when it was still a Horcrux. When Harry sees Dumbledore with it for the first time, there is no mention of the crack, but after Dumbledore "destroys" the Horcrux (i.e. ridding the object of Voldemort's soul) then the crack appears. So this marks was probably of Dumbledore's making, not Voldemort's.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 3:33 pm
DanielRadclif  Female.gif DanielRadclif is offline
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Hmm. Lots to ponder.

I agree that Harry is a horcrux - I have since you talked about it in the November editorial last year. I do not, however, believe that Harry will do a Terminator (though a great reference) and throw everything in like he's making stone soup.

Instead, I think, because JKR herself said something to the effect of "Harry has amassed more knowledge than you think," Harry will have a slow and painful one-by-one horcrux battle. He'll get rid of most of them; Nagini will have to be toward the end, mostly because Voldie will be ticked.

Then, I think, Harry will, somehow, remove his own scar in, as you say, a magical battle royale, then as he's dying, watching Voldie laugh that maniacal laugh, he'll push Voldemort through the veil. A bit strange, but I'm strangely addicted to this theory.

I also find fault with the "point-and-click" method. The way I pictured it was that when a person kills another person, the killer's soul is automatically split. After this, the killer could walk around, soul split, forever, unless they felt it necesary to do a little spring cleaning. Voldemort, knowing there was an alternative to keeping a fractured soul and wanting very much to stay alive, killed people, then went back to his dark lair, riffled through his yearbooks and keepsake boxes, pulled out a diary, some old jewelry, and did a Pensieve-esque removal of pieces of his soul, via the Horcrux spell.

I think Voldemort - having killed tens, hundreds of people - has the potential of making tons of Horcruxes. He doesn't want to, in the classic evil villian way of thinking, 'hey, it's cooler this way. So what if it means less protection?'

I agree half-way with Brandon on how Harry became a Horcrux, as well. Voldemort went to the Potters, fully intent on killing that pesky baby. He gets there, kills James, then moves on the nursery. Lily, standing in front of her barely one year-old son, and begs for Voldie to spare him. Voldie says no. Next, he kills Lily, but not before she says/thinks something like, "I love you, Harry." Rubbing his hands together, Voldemort points his wand at Harry, mutters our favorite green spell, and whoosh! But, not the whoosh he was expecting. The screwy prophecy magic - again, in agreement with Brandon - floating overhead, says, "Oh no you di-n't!" And takes Voldemort's spell back on "its originator," and (only because of the previous Horcuxes) Voldemort is left with a single slice. A fresh piece of Voldemort's soul is then "ripped from [his] body," placing it smack dab on the intended recepient - Harry. Harry gets this pretty scar, the last piece of Voldemort's soul besides the one he needs to not die, and the rest is history.

Thoughts?


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Old October 16th, 2005, 3:40 pm
a_single_rose  Female.gif a_single_rose is offline
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Interesting editorial. You made the 'Harry is a horcrux' theory more plausible, but I'm still not really buying it.

Sure, the statement that the horcruxes have to be destroyed before Voldemort himself is a simple rebuttal for the 'Harry Horcrux Hypothesis'. Maybe it's even too simple. But what's wrong with a little simplicity? Maybe, just for once, things aren't as complicated as we make them out to be.

Besides, I don't think Voldemort would be able to be destroyed before his Horcruxes, even if he was pushed into the veil.

I, personally, have little faith in Harry. How, in one book, will he be able to find and destroy four horcruxes, find a way to kill Voldemort (because I am of the belief that it won't be AK), kill him, and get back together with Ginny?

One thing's for sure: Book 7 is going to be a good one


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Old October 16th, 2005, 3:43 pm
DanielRadclif  Female.gif DanielRadclif is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alana
why is everyone assuming RAB is regulus black?????? no one knows for sure so we everyone pls stop assuming!!!
Umm, Alana? There are no other people with matching intials. Regulus had this weird disappearance that was never fully explained. His name appeared in OotP, when all hell broke loose. His name was mentioned thrice in HBP. Sirius died, leaving Grimmauld Place - including Krecher and everything in it - to Harry. There are no coincedences.

Who do you think it is?

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Originally Posted by a_single_rose
Ron/Hermione--Getting closer...
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To the Dark Lord,
PSYCH!!!
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I love this. Just wanted to comment.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 4:16 pm
ydnam96  Female.gif ydnam96 is offline
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Loved the editorial. Again, full of great thought.

I think you are very close to what must be the truth. I do agree that there are some inconsistencies, well not inconsistencies as much as areas of grayness.

My big thing is that I don't think Nagini is a Horcrux. I don't remember from my readings (and I might be wrong) that DD said conclusively that Nagini was one, just that it was a possibility. I am NOT a fan of the living Horcrux thing. I don't think VM would be so stupid as to do that. I mean, he is a pretty smart guy. What if the snake got hit by a car or something (only slightly kidding here)?

But I guess that's not really important at the moment.

About "marking" each intended murder victim...hmmm...well I agree with the poster above who mentioned that Tom didn't know how to make a horcux (presumably) when he killed his dad and grandparents (there is the possibility that he did and that he was just asking Slughorn about the number of them he should make). So those bits of soul would be hangin out for a while...
Also I had not thought of it, but again, a poster above mentioned that none of his family members had marks on them. Now, that could be explained by stating that once the "point and click" procedure was finished the mark dissapeared and that the reason Harry has it still is that VM didn't actually finish the process on his own, it happened by default, thus leaving the scar in place. But it is an interesting observation.

I too believe that Harry will more than likely have to sacrifice himself to finally get rid of VM. I don't know if that is because he is a Horcrux or just because it will be necessary...guess we'll see.

Great editorial!!!


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Old October 16th, 2005, 4:24 pm
ReachfulHP88  Undisclosed.gif ReachfulHP88 is offline
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Oooer!

Thats a good idea with the veil. I am a believer in Harry as a Horcrux too. Good points, and I love the "it'll be sad and we'll all cry" line. I'm excited for part 4...

-KP


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Old October 16th, 2005, 4:37 pm
kneazlegirl  Female.gif kneazlegirl is offline
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First: did you just say that Regulus' middle name is Augustus? That's a new one.

Am I the only one that heard the Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory (ages ago) and thought, "That makes sense... that makes way TOO much sense. It's too obvious, and too predictable." Once you assume that Harry is a horcrux, it's easy to predict how the book will have to end: either, 1, with Harry sacrificing himself, or 2, with him somehow destroying the scar. It's simply too predictable to be the Big Ending of the series. And, how could anyone not find the theory plausable, considering Harry is told about a thousand times that "You're connected to Voldemort through the scar!" and "No one has ever had a curse scar like that before, so we have no idea how it happened!"

You explained the theory quite well, but I still don't like it, for the same reason I don't like the theory that Nagini, the hufflepuff cup, and some random, previously-unknown object of Ravenclaw's are the last horcruxes. There's no surprises. Maybe JKR will manage to pull either of these theories off in a suprising way, but I'd rather it be something none of us suspect.


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Old October 16th, 2005, 4:41 pm
mlp36  Undisclosed.gif mlp36 is offline
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I don't see how it is possible for Tom Riddle to have made the Ring and Diary in to Horcruxes right when he killed his father, and to have left the ring there then. That is impossible. Tom had not yet learned what Horcruxes were from Slughorn when he killed his father, and he had the ring on him when he did learn from Slughorn, so he couldn't have left it in the Gaunt house just after killing his father.


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