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Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 17th, 2005, 11:45 pm
loopdeedoo123  Female.gif loopdeedoo123 is offline
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Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side?

So, will he? Do you think he will come back and fight for the Order in the final battle, or is he on the Dark side through and through? Or is he still on the good side, just never left it?


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  #2  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:04 am
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I don't think that Snape ever left.
Dumbledore trusted Snape but he wasn't a fool, it won't have been one self recrimatory sentence that convinced Dumbledore that Snape was sincere, there will have been many acts over the years that will have confirmed his belief.

Also, there was a meeting between Snape and Dumbledore with an argument. Was this Dumbledore telling Snape that if, in the end, it was the only recourse then Snape was to A.K. Dumbledore.

I think that up till Snape arriving when Dumbledore was talking to Malfoy, DD was in charge of himself and then after Snape arrived his demeanor changed. He was pleading with Snape to get on with it.

There is also the bit where Snape was countering all the spells of Harry's, when Harry had run after Snape and Malfoy after Dumbledores death, and throwing out information whilst he did it. Not something that you would tell your enemy.


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  #3  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:05 am
impedimenta impedimenta is offline
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I think, that snape is on his own side. Neither really involved with voldemort nor with the order of the phoenix.

This "I'm the halfblood-prince" stuff is so similar to "I'm lord voldemort" that I just can't see snape really being one of voldemorts obedient followers.

There are similarities:

tom riddle - lord voldemort - chosen by himself to be unique and gain power - to fill the lack of love in sake of himself
severus snape - the half blood prince - chosen by himself to what? be accepted - overcome a low selfesteem? - to fill the lack of love in sake of himself
harry potter - the chosen one - not chosen by himself but accepted his role - to make the world better for all/others- to be able to love again (?) - NOT in the sake of himself


harry and voldemort clearly take opposite sides - but snape, doesn't matter if good or not good, could be bringing the decision for one side.

It perhaps could be a bit like smeagol in lord of the rings. He wasn't good, he wasn't totally bad - he fulfilled the mission...


  #4  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:10 am
ginasmads  Female.gif ginasmads is offline
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i kept thinking that (even though i so knew he was evil!!) he could have pretended to A.K him and actually said a different spell in his head, but then i realised he had not. i was so angry when harry said why dumbledore trusted snape, it cant just be for that, it must be something else.

i agree (reluctantly) with bunny it must be for the "greater good" that snape killed dumbledore. but thats only because i can see dumbledore being hoodwinked by such a silly stupid lie such as him being sorry about james.

it must be part of a deeper plan. (fingers crossed)


  #5  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:21 am
owen  Male.gif owen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunny
I don't think that Snape ever left.
I agree. He had formed the unbreakable vow with Narcissa to fulfill Draco's task which undoubtedly was not only to fix the mirror but also to kill Dumbledore as Voldemort wouldnt allow anyone else to do it but Draco. Snape had not alternative at this point.

I believe that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about this. Snape was saying that he wouldnt fulfil the task and Dumbledore was telling him he had to. Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him because he wanted to save Draco from killing someone and knew that Snape would do so having performed the unbreakable vow.

This is why Snape was furious at being called a coward. In order to remain a spy in Voldemorts inner circle he killed someone who obviously meant a lot to him and therefore lost a lot. He seems to have been brave rather than cowardly.

All in all, Snape had to kill Dumbledore as he has vowed to do so and Dumbledore told him to keep this vow. He is still on the right side and killed Dumbledore to remove any doubt from the death eaters (particularly Bellatrix) that he is fully behind Voldemort, when he is not.


  #6  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:33 am
Diamondring35  Female.gif Diamondring35 is offline
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I think Snape is on his own side. I believe he killed Dumbledore to prevent himself from being killed. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, he vowed to help Draco fulfill whatever order he was given by the "Dark Lord" and if Draco would fail, then Snape had to carry out the deed the Dark Lord had given Draco to perform. We learned from Ron that there is no way to break an unbreakable vow, if you break the vow you die. Snape did seem hesitant to make that promise , but he did. I think since Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore, he did since he made the unbreakable vow and didn't want to die himself.


  #7  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:39 am
Pharazon  Male.gif Pharazon is offline
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This "Good Guy Snape" Theory is driving me mad. He killed Dumbledore, and it doesn't matter if he wants to be good, Harry is going to kill him somewhere in Book 7. I just really don't know how people can think Snape's still good, he killed Dumbledore. The remaining members of the Order are going to despise him and "jinx him into oblivion" (Tonks, OotP :P) if he ever comes near. Obviously, they were unaware of Dumbledore/Snape's pact if there was one, and no one will believe Snape now. He's probably most wanted by the MoM only behind Voldemort himself, because he killed such an icon of the strength/perseverence in the wizarding world. I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great.


  #8  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:43 am
owen  Male.gif owen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharazon
This "Good Guy Snape" Theory is driving me mad. He killed Dumbledore, and it doesn't matter if he wants to be good, Harry is going to kill him somewhere in Book 7. I just really don't know how people can think Snape's still good, he killed Dumbledore. The remaining members of the Order are going to despise him and "jinx him into oblivion" (Tonks, OotP :P) if he ever comes near. Obviously, they were unaware of Dumbledore/Snape's pact if there was one, and no one will believe Snape now. He's probably most wanted by the MoM only behind Voldemort himself, because he killed such an icon of the strength/perseverence in the wizarding world. I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great.
As you said he was under an unbreakable vow which doesnt excuse it but he obviously didnt intend to fulfil it and Dumbledore ordered him to do so in their little argument.
Similarly I cannot stand Snape but I feel he will be both useful and helpful in the next book


  #9  
Old July 18th, 2005, 12:45 am
blahblah  Undisclosed.gif blahblah is offline
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I dunno... I mean even though Dumbledore is weak and old, he still seems more of an asset to the Order than Snape could be, so wouldn't Dumbledore realise this and make Snape forfit himself... then again Dumbledore know his time to die is near anyway, but doesn't he also know how much Harry depends on him to defeat Voldemort's Horcruxes. If I had chosen I would prefer that Snape die... unless, of coures, the Half-Blood Prince is much more powerful than potion making and jinx inventing. If Dumbledore did let Snape kill him there must be MUCH more that the HBP is capapble of... oh I hope Snape's a good guy. AHHHHHH!!!!!! this is sooooo confusing.


  #10  
Old July 18th, 2005, 1:09 am
Cho_Chang1  Undisclosed.gif Cho_Chang1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharazon
I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great.
I have one thing to say to that:

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  #11  
Old July 18th, 2005, 1:09 am
Mugglefoot  Undisclosed.gif Mugglefoot is offline
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I'm sorry I just don't believe that Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted to die. Nor do I believe he absolutely had to make that un-breakable vow with 'Cissy. He really is just pure evil. I think he wants to be the next Lord Voldemort, he wants power and he wants revenge.


  #12  
Old July 18th, 2005, 1:47 am
mistymoon  Female.gif mistymoon is offline
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I think there is more too all this than we know right now.There was also more to Dumbledore's trusting Snape than was shown.


  #13  
Old July 18th, 2005, 1:58 am
tatochips  Female.gif tatochips is offline
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I WILL NEVER FORGIVE SNAPE!!!! :upset.


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  #14  
Old July 18th, 2005, 3:00 am
vitacus  Male.gif vitacus is offline
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Opinion: I'm on the fence.
I want it to be that with all the times Albus was telling Harry that Harry's blood, Harry's safety, Harry's life were far more important than Dumbledore's own, that Dumbledore knew that he had to be killed eventually by someone *Snape*. Legilmency communication between them at the very end. I don't believe Dumbledore would have pleaded for Severus to help him if he thought Severus were there either to save him or how it more sounded like he realized Severus was there to betray him. Either way Albus saw it, he wouldn't have weakened like that verbally. I think that if it was genuine, Albus would have reacted more like going pale with shock and then giving some kind of accepting line like Ceaser's 'Et tu, Brute?" Previous planning on that final sacrifice decision combined with Snapes possibly interpretted unusual behaviour towards Harry during the final chase would show that Snape will have a place in the final book where he is shown to be truely good and redeemed.

That's what I hope. I have a soft spot in my own heart for stories where the bad guys redeem themselves. But alas, here comes the darker side of the fence I am sitting on.

In the more dark-based direction the books have been taking, it would be as we have been shown. Severus was indeed telling the complete truth in the beginning to Narcissa and Bellatrix about his loyalties. So with that ultimate betrayal after such a long time of being shown care, charity and finally trust *DADA position as well as the more important Albus' trust with his life to Snape*, Snape has become the ultimate snake in the grass. There is no final moment of redemption for someone like that.


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Old July 18th, 2005, 4:01 am
Asrana  Female.gif Asrana is offline
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I believe Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him if a 'situation' came about. But I also believe he didn't tell the Order. Since all of them were suprised with Snape at the end
Quote:
I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great.
An eye for and eye much?


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  #16  
Old July 18th, 2005, 4:10 am
eatcacti  Female.gif eatcacti is offline
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Snape is good.

There have been a lot of good explanations floating around about why this is so, but the thing that convinced me is simply that JKR has written 5 whole books in which Snape is a misunderstood good guy, the guy Dumbledore trusts despite everything he has done in the past, the guy who shows more than anyone else what we heard in OotP: that there are more than two classes of people in the world, there are numerous shades of grey. Anyway, after 5 books of JKR teaching us that bad people can be redeemed, she is simply not going to pull the rug out from underneath us and have Snape suddenly turn bad. Remember this is, after all else, a children's book.

Snape is by far the most complex character in the Harry Potter series, and it would be a waste of such beautiful character development for him to turn out evil all along, for all of Harry and Ron's suspicions to be true. If that were the case, I would be highly disappointed in the entire series. Up to this point, I have no reason to believe that JKR is a bad writer - the type who would throw something at you (like Snape being evil) just for shock value. And there really is no other explanation for it.


  #17  
Old July 18th, 2005, 5:28 am
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This was the first thing I wanted to discuss with someone after I finished the book. Had Bellatrix not been there, would Snape have found a way to avoid making the unbreakable vow with Narcissa? Had Snape and Draco been the only DE's on the tower, would Snape have still killed? My thought was that this is the reason Snape was so furious when Harry called him a coward - that it hit a sore spot because it was true. No matter if Snape tells himself "I'll die if I don't keep the vow, and someone else will kill him, so he'll be dead anyway, and I'm no good to anyone dead" etc. etc. etc. If his actions were first and formost an instinct to save himself, he'll feel like a coward.

I haven't decided if I think he's really a loyal DE, or if he's just a coward. Until I read this thread it hadn't occured to me that maybe he did what Dumbledore ordered him to do. I'll have to think on that before I can decide my opinion on it.


  #18  
Old July 18th, 2005, 5:35 am
unknown8103  Undisclosed.gif unknown8103 is offline
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I think that Snape is still good but had no choice but to kill Dumbledore. He had the unbreakable vow and in order for him to pass on info to the order; info that one day could lead Harry to confont Voldemort he had to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore I think made a sacrifice like many do in all wars.


  #19  
Old July 18th, 2005, 6:01 am
dantares  Male.gif dantares is offline
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True, Snape killed Dumbledore, but I have reasons to believe that Dumbledore is not dead... These are my speculations...

1) Snape saved Harry in PS. True, he said he tried to stop Quirrel only because he did not want Quirrel to have the stone, but why did he bother to save Harry during the match? He will not have gained any more trust from Dumbledore and he hates James and Sirius to the core (we can see from HBP), so why would he bother to save Harry, just let him die, Dumbledore can't fault him, can he?

2) In OotP, Snape was the first person in the Order to know that Harry had ran off to the MoM. He did not have to inform the Order because Harry would have been dead (together with the other 5), Voldermort made it a point to visit MoM because he wants to hear the propency asap and then killed Harry. If Snape had not inform the Order, I am pretty sure, the story can be ended. Yet, he did inform, when nobody knows that Harry had told Snape about Sirius being trapped in MoM. Thus, he only win a bit more trust from Dumbledore by reporting (and he did not need the additional trust).

3) In HBP, Snape was asked to make the unbreakable vow which is unbreakable. If he refused, he would have raise suspicion from the two sisters and thus, making himself useless. Thus, Dumbledore no doubt knew he will have to die and Snape had to kill him.

4) Dumbledore, IMHO, for reasons I don't know how, is faking death. A phoniex is seen flying off from his tomb and we all know Dumbledore's patronus is a phoniex, could he be sending secret msgs to Snape telling him that their plan had worked.

With Dumbledore presumed dead, Voldermort will no doubt let off his guard because the only person he ever feared is dead. Anyone will let their guard down, even Voldermort. Thus, Dumbledore can operate in secrets and hunt down Voldermort. Not only that, Snape will no doubt win absolute trust from Voldermort, he can get the most secrets mission and passed it to Dumbledore.
And did you all not noticed that Dumbledore actually pleaded with Snape? I don not like to think one of my favourite character will actually plead to save his own life. Dumbledore do not fear death! He may regret that he is mistaken about Snape (if Snape truly betrayed Dumbledore) but I do not honestly think he will plead. It is only an act.

Thus, with the Phoniex and Dumbledore's pleading, I predict that Dumbledore is not quite as dead. Hopefully, that will be true. Not that I liked Snape anyway, I have another set of theory that had long predicted that Snape will betrayed Dumbledore though I hope it would not have happened but still did. Anyway, what you guys think of my theory?


  #20  
Old July 18th, 2005, 6:11 am
Phoenix05  Male.gif Phoenix05 is offline
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Snape works for himself. It seems he wants total independence from everyone. Maybe they worked out that nifty little plan according to dantares but I don't think Snape is one to be trusted.


 
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