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How will Snape prove his loyalty?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 18th, 2005, 4:18 pm
kingbobs  Male.gif kingbobs is offline
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How will Snape prove his loyalty?

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There are two dominating theories about Severus Snape. One is that he never left Voldemort's side and achieved Voldemort's biggest victory yet in murdering Albus Dumbledore. The other is that he is a loyal member of the Order, spying on Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Dumbledore's death was an unfortunate but necessary step for Snape to keep his cover. There are other threads where you can argue which theory you believe. There is even one discussing the consequences if Snape is evil. This one will focus on the "Good Snape" theory. Specifically, will he and if so how will he, prove his loyalty to Harry and the Order?

My guess is that Dumbledore knew he would be killed by Snape and left information (similar to what a muggle would call a "will") where he explains his unwavering trust in Snape and his order to Snape to kill him if necessary to preserve Snape's cover as a spy for the Order. This information will be found either at the headquarters of the Order or in Dumbledore's old office at Hogwarts.



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  #2  
Old November 18th, 2005, 7:09 pm
CrazyIdeazRok  Female.gif CrazyIdeazRok is offline
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Hmm...if they made an Unbreakable Vow, who was the third person?


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  #3  
Old November 18th, 2005, 8:37 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyIdeazRok
Hmm...if they made an Unbreakable Vow, who was the third person?

Hagrid. After all, he did "overhear" that conversation...


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  #4  
Old November 18th, 2005, 8:40 pm
Vibro  Male.gif Vibro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaker1
Hagrid. After all, he did "overhear" that conversation...
How would they know Hagrid wasgoing to be passing by that exact spot?


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Old November 18th, 2005, 8:49 pm
hermiones mum hermiones mum is offline
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I think Harry and Snape share knowledge of the potions book of the Half blood prince - we also know spells were written in there which they now share knowledge of.
Perhaps there is an old spell created with the help of Lily there, which ultimately saved Harrys life from Voldemort. If Harry found that he would know that Snape could have changed that fateful night.


  #6  
Old November 18th, 2005, 9:03 pm
owlchick9  Female.gif owlchick9 is offline
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Snape is EVIL!!!!! We clarified this a while ago. He is not coming back can't say I'm upset


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  #7  
Old November 18th, 2005, 9:08 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibro
How would they know Hagrid wasgoing to be passing by that exact spot?
I think Hagrid was in on it from the start, he just can't tell anyone. I think it's a possibility.


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  #8  
Old November 18th, 2005, 10:08 pm
Vasheba  Female.gif Vasheba is offline
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I doubt hagrid will have anything to do with it. He's notoriouly bad at keeping secrets.


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  #9  
Old November 18th, 2005, 10:39 pm
ekia_aj  Male.gif ekia_aj is offline
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<quote>(an unbreakable vow between Dumbledore and Snape is the only thing I can think of) </quote>

Never, Dumbledore would not force someone or have someone do an unbreakable Vow.

<quote>Snape is EVIL!!!!! We clarified this a while ago. He is not coming back can't say I'm upset</quote>

Where? Can I get a link? I"ve been in search of some valid proof that Snape is evil (I want him to be)


  #10  
Old November 18th, 2005, 10:47 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owlchick9
Snape is EVIL!!!!! We clarified this a while ago. He is not coming back can't say I'm upset
Who clarified this? There are still lots of us that think otherwise. we all have opinions and opinions vary.


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  #11  
Old November 18th, 2005, 10:55 pm
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Hermiones Mum, Lily didn't use a spell to save Harry. By dying for him when she didn't have to, she invoked an ancient magic even she wasn't aware of, and Dumbledore built on it to protect Harry until he's 17 as long as his home is technically with the Dursleys.

I think Lupin may continue to trust Snape. Fawkes may also come to Snape, as he came to Harry in the Chamber, and that would prove his loyalty to Dumbledore.

I also think that Snape will give his life to save Harry, which will be the only definitive proof of his actual loyalties and motivations.


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  #12  
Old November 18th, 2005, 11:10 pm
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Snape, if there is any loyalty to prove, will be able to provide proof, if and only if, he lays down his life for Harry.

I have had many others say to my comments that that is over done, Lily and James already did it and therefore the impact coming from Snape would be pointless. I disagree. The difference between a parent dying for their child and well...someone like Snape dying for Harry is as different as night and day. I don't even think it matters which camp Snape is party to, the act would be undeniably impactful.

I have always believed that it would come down to Harry and Snape, perhaps this is off topic a bit, but even JKR said the animocity between Snape and Harry will, in some ways, out weigh that of Voldemort and Harry. I think that is because Snape has been in direct daily contact with Harry. He grew up with Harry's parents, he was his professor, he was suppossidly, on the side of the "Order". Snape was the one who leaked the prophecy information to Voldemort. Watching Snape kill Dumbledore, was extreemly personal to Harry.

Based on that, it would take an act of great magnitude to have Harry believe any differently of Snape than what he does now, and basically always has. Don't get me wrong, I think that if Snape does lay down his life for Harry, Harry in many ways, will hate Snape even more than he already does. I don't know if Harry is capable of understanding the greater impact of such an ending...

I would hope that Harry will gain a great deal of knowledge and understanding prior to JKR's final words of book 7. He will need this to have any chance of being at peace, provided of couse, that she allows Harry to live.

I have had many theories run through my mind and thoughts prior to each book coming out since I started reading them. I have been right at least half of the time, and I like to think that I am following some of what JKR is putting out there. But she will always surprise me, and I just hope that I can close book 7, out of character of the first 6, and be content with Harry's future. Time will tell.


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  #13  
Old November 19th, 2005, 12:01 am
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I believe, like klynnrose, Snape's loyalty will be proven by the ultimate redemption to Harry: giving his life for him. But I think there should be more, not just Snape rushing in at random to protect Harry. I think his life can be given only after he or someone/something has explained to Harry the truth of the loyalty matters. There are many loose ends to tie up, or in the case of Harry and Snape, it seems they are still in the middle and beginning of understanding each other. I see Snape's redemption happening at a vital moment, at least if he is to die for Harry. Most likely some encounter with Voldemort, which would of course make the matter that much more dramatic and gripping to us readers and those in the story as well. Perhaps information of the truth will trickle out to Harry as the story progresses (IE rumors of where Snape's loyalties lie, speculation, so on), then a bucketload of emotional revelations toward the time when Snape would give his life (IE the cold hard facts of Snape's loyalty, whatever they might be), and then the death itself.

My ideas are a bit vague and shakey but it's hard to predict too much. I'll just say here that I'm a firm believer that Snape is good and will somehow, some way redeem himself.


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  #14  
Old November 19th, 2005, 12:26 am
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Quote:
by Pinkerton

My ideas are a bit vague and shakey but it's hard to predict too much. I'll just say here that I'm a firm believer that Snape is good and will somehow, some way redeem himself.

If you could predict too much, I would think your were JKR in disguise. (hehehe)
You do make valid points, and the part about tying up loose ends, is exactly what I was talking about. Well, done.


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Old November 19th, 2005, 11:10 am
MadMuggle  Female.gif MadMuggle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owlchick9
Snape is EVIL!!!!! We clarified this a while ago. He is not coming back can't say I'm upset
You clarified it did you? So I s'pose Jo told you and no-one else? Your comment is so unreasonable and short sighted I just don't know where to begin without sounding like I'm attacking.

There are many many many reasons to belive Snape is good - more reasons, infact, than there are to believe he is actually bad. You'll find most of them in the Chamber of Secrets Forums I'm sure. Until book 7 both theories are open.


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Old November 19th, 2005, 9:07 pm
cbaker1  Male.gif cbaker1 is offline
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It also seems possible that either Dumbledore's portrait and/or Dumbledore's thoughts in his pensieve will have a role to play in proving Snape's loyalty.


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  #17  
Old November 19th, 2005, 9:17 pm
Trigunmax  Male.gif Trigunmax is offline
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If Snape is good(like i think) i highly doubt he could ever prove his loyalty to the good side.

if he is evil then he has already proven himself


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  #18  
Old November 19th, 2005, 9:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klynnrose
Snape, if there is any loyalty to prove, will be able to provide proof, if and only if, he lays down his life for Harry.

I have had many others say to my comments that that is over done, Lily and James already did it and therefore the impact coming from Snape would be pointless. I disagree. The difference between a parent dying for their child and well...someone like Snape dying for Harry is as different as night and day. I don't even think it matters which camp Snape is party to, the act would be undeniably impactful.

I have always believed that it would come down to Harry and Snape, perhaps this is off topic a bit, but even JKR said the animocity between Snape and Harry will, in some ways, out weigh that of Voldemort and Harry. I think that is because Snape has been in direct daily contact with Harry. He grew up with Harry's parents, he was his professor, he was suppossidly, on the side of the "Order". Snape was the one who leaked the prophecy information to Voldemort. Watching Snape kill Dumbledore, was extreemly personal to Harry.

Based on that, it would take an act of great magnitude to have Harry believe any differently of Snape than what he does now, and basically always has. Don't get me wrong, I think that if Snape does lay down his life for Harry, Harry in many ways, will hate Snape even more than he already does. I don't know if Harry is capable of understanding the greater impact of such an ending...

I would hope that Harry will gain a great deal of knowledge and understanding prior to JKR's final words of book 7. He will need this to have any chance of being at peace, provided of couse, that she allows Harry to live.

I have had many theories run through my mind and thoughts prior to each book coming out since I started reading them. I have been right at least half of the time, and I like to think that I am following some of what JKR is putting out there. But she will always surprise me, and I just hope that I can close book 7, out of character of the first 6, and be content with Harry's future. Time will tell.
I guess my problem with the "Snape dying to save Harry" ending, is that if Snape has in fact been working for the Order, and has, in killing Dumbledore, trashed whatever good there was in his own life, he's redeemed the heck out of himself by now for becoming a Death Eater. Of course, Harry wouldn't know that, but if Snape dies, that lets Harry off the hook from fulfilling his responsibility in their relationship, facing Snape and saying "thank you" in a meaningful way.

If Snape is on the good side, why should he have to live a miserable life and die to show Harry that he's okay, so Harry can shed a quick tear, then scamper off, marry Ginny and live happily ever after. I want to see both of them come to terms with the misunderstandings they're laboring under, work together to defeat Voldemort, and do what is the hardest thing for any of us, live out their daily lives in a respectful, appreciative and responsible way.

I am aware that I've read Jane Austen's novels too many times, but I want the "Pride and Prejudice" thing that Harry has going with Snape resolved!

I personally want to see an ending that's more than "Bang! Bang!...Crucio!....AAAARRGGH!...Avada Kedavra!...Come on, Ginnie, let's go see a movie!... Kiss kiss!"


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  #19  
Old November 20th, 2005, 2:32 am
Melvasaiel  Female.gif Melvasaiel is offline
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All of this discussion of whether Snape is really evil begs to question whether or not Dumbledore is REALLY dead.
I may just sound like one of those desperate Long Live Dumbledore types, but I really think there is valid evidence to suggest that he is still alive. AND maybe he was working with Snape (with or without Snape's knowledge) to have his death faked. I mean, a lot of focus in the 6th book went into teaching the students how to perform spells without saying them. Also, the way Dumbledore is "blasted into the aire" doesn't hold with all the other descriptions of the Killing Curse where the victim just falls down dead. And also, in book 5, it is stated that Avada Kedavra doesn't work unless you really mean it.
SO, put those three elements together and it could be suggested that Snape didn't really mean it when he said Avada Kedavra, and that he was really saying some other spell which caused Dumbledore to fly up and then appear dead. Who knows?

A great site for all of this Dumbledore/Snape speculation is www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com If you've never been there, you should go read the whole thing. It's amazing. I'm convinced.


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  #20  
Old November 20th, 2005, 2:59 am
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Meh, I'm with the Snape-sacrifice group. The most pressing issue concerning Snape in book 7 (assuming he's good, which I do) will be proving himself noble and good and all that jazz to Harry (since the books are through Harry's point of view), and of course, that will be no easy feat. I think at some point Harry will find out Snape is on the good side--either through a direct or indirect source- but in order for him to finally accept Snape and forgive him (which I believe is necessary in order to cement and culminate his journey of maturity), Harry will have to see some visible and demostrative action of selfessness on Snape's part. And really, the only way I see that happening is through self-sacrifice.


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