Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

How will Snape prove his loyalty?



 
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old February 19th, 2006, 12:47 am
Oblina  Female.gif Oblina is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4943 days
Location: In my own head.
Posts: 23
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
I also think that Snape will give his life to save Harry, which will be the only definitive proof of his actual loyalties and motivations.
I do not believe Snape is good or evil. I believe that Snape is just Snape and is loyal to his own kind of honor. - He killed Dumbledor because he was bound by his oath to Malfoy's Mother.

I just re-read the first book and remembered (again) that James Potter saved Snape's life when they were young. He hated James in general and HATES him more for saving him.

Although, Snape has almost saved Harry's life here and there, Snape has not been THE reason Harry lives, yet. I think that in the last book Snape will be there at that "do or die" instant and somehow Snape will truly save Harry's life. Snape will live to tell the tail and walk away Hating Harry as much as ever.

Snape is a walking talking oxymoron. And an extremely complex character. Whether he is good or evil or merely Severis Snape, I love the character because he is the only one we can argue over day and night.


__________________

to Oblina's world, a very happy place.
Sponsored Links
  #62  
Old February 19th, 2006, 12:58 am
HP4evr1807's Avatar
HP4evr1807  Female.gif HP4evr1807 is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 4823 days
Location: In Harry's Army
Age: 29
Posts: 2,947
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
I agree she will put off resolving the Snape question until close to the end, but not hte very end. The climax, I would predict, will be the final confrontation of Harry and Voldemort. And Snape will be straightened out in whatever way before that scene ends (if not before it even starts).
I think this as well. I think JKR will have the reader be in question about Snape's loyalties in the beginning of book 7, and even towards the middle. Snape's loyalties and where they lie is a pressing questing going into book 7, and I think Snape will prove his loyalty---either way, near the end of the book, but probably before or around the time of Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort.


__________________

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference
.

-Robert Frost, The Road Not Taken
  #63  
Old February 20th, 2006, 8:59 pm
NoNEWTS  Male.gif NoNEWTS is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4840 days
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 369
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Snape will prove his loyalty by killing Nagini after someone sends a patronus message telling him about this horcrux.


  #64  
Old February 21st, 2006, 5:43 am
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

All of the ideas here are excellent, but to through the cat among the pigeons what about the idea that Snape doesn't need to prove his loyalty, Harry only needs to learn of it? I'm not saying he won't do any of the things you mention, he may even do most of them, but I'm rather wondering if JKR's exclamation about Snape's redemptive pattern is that he doesn't really need redeeming on a Voldemort vs the Wizarding World level. Now on an emotional level, I think it isn't possible to redeem him. He is a horrible man.


  #65  
Old February 21st, 2006, 3:19 pm
ColourChangeInk  Female.gif ColourChangeInk is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4695 days
Location: The Hall of Prophecy
Posts: 48
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I like that last point about redemption, HPSpec, which leads me to ask, how will this play out dramatically?

Before HBP we were used to seeing things from Harry's POV; even the first chapter of GOF turned out to be Harry's 'dream'. The only difference was that we sometimes remembered things that Harry had forgotten or made connections that he missed...

But the beginning of HBP changed all that. For the first time since PS/SS we were in possession of important information that Harry lacked – namely, that Voldemort had given Malfoy a task, which Snape had pledged to help fulfil. The reader was in a terrible position, knowing that Harry needed this information but being unable to help. (The tables were turned slightly, at the very end of the book, when we discovered that Harry was in possession of information that we did not know – namely, that his parents are buried in Godric’s Hollow. No one has even mentioned Godric’s Hollow to Harry in our hearing.)

This makes me think, as someone who believes that Snape is still loyal, that we will be shown this very early – separating us from the main protagonists once again. The real suspense/mystery will be how Snape proves his loyalty to Harry and/or Lupin. Plus I’m also interested in the Voldemort/Snape relationship since we’ve never seen them together. Is the Dark Lord really so trusting? What is Wormtail doing at Spinner’s End?

As to how Snape will prove his loyalty to us – I could imagine the first chapter of Book 7 being set just after the murder of Dumbledore (bearing out JKR’s statement that 6 and 7 are part of the same whole). If we were to see Snape Apparating in Spinner’s End following his meeting with Voldemort – still in shock after the terrible events of that night and allowing his mind to relax for the first time after performing Occlumency – then I think we’d have a pretty good idea what had happened. Especially if Fawkes appeared in a flash of fire to comfort him … that would explain where he went after singing the Phoenix Lament.


__________________
'You said to us once before,' said Hermione quietly, 'that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We've had time, haven't we?'

Last edited by ColourChangeInk; February 22nd, 2006 at 12:00 am.
  #66  
Old February 21st, 2006, 4:00 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4830 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
All of the ideas here are excellent, but to through the cat among the pigeons what about the idea that Snape doesn't need to prove his loyalty, Harry only needs to learn of it? I'm not saying he won't do any of the things you mention, he may even do most of them, but I'm rather wondering if JKR's exclamation about Snape's redemptive pattern is that he doesn't really need redeeming on a Voldemort vs the Wizarding World level. Now on an emotional level, I think it isn't possible to redeem him. He is a horrible man.
Actually, this is what I think too. But he still needs to 'prove' (as in demonstrate convincingly) his loyalty to Harry. Not because he wasn't acting loyally in HBP, but because appearances were rather against him.

I do think there is a redemption story going on with Snape, but it is backstory. He needs redemption in the sense that, what, 17-8 years ago now, he was a Death Eater, and told Voldemort the part of he Prophecy he heard, giving Voldemort as reason to kill Harry and his parents. He won't completely have closure on his evil past until Voldemort and his followers are no longer in a position to harm Harry and others.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #67  
Old February 21st, 2006, 8:02 pm
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

ColourChangeInk, I love how you are able to see the changes in literary convention like your point about HBP that for the first time we knew the who the villian was but Harry continued to guess. That type of thing is completely beyond my capabilities so sadly I can only state my awe rather than contribute further. I love the Fawkes visiting Snape idea as another beginning of the book moment where we learn something Harry needs to figure out!

Zgirnius, I completely agree with you that Snape will prove his loyalty in some way, and would bet a significant sum it will be in the tense moments of the final battle. But there is a small possibility that Snape was never a true Death Eater but was always a double agent, we won't know for certain until JKR lets us in on the secret. I do think it would be interesting if Harry's misjudgment of Snape's fundemental core (support of the good) is sustained. But Harry's judgment of Snape's exceptionally flawed veneer is spot on - I don't think there is any chance that deep down he is a nice man. But terrible men can and are part of a good outcome.


  #68  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 10:44 am
Ashwinder  Female.gif Ashwinder is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4639 days
Location: the Netherlands
Age: 38
Posts: 82
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

So many theories, so many options. I honestly believe that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore.

But I think the events that happened around Snape and Dumbledore will somehow prove Severus Snape's devotion. I suspect Fawkes will have a great part in that, either by physical appearance or Snape's Patronus changing into a phoenix. The last one is an obvious guess, remembering the Patronus Tonks conjured and how Harry noticed it had changed after the events with Sirius, and more important Remus.

I also suspect that we get to see more of Aberforth Dumbledore. My ideas go pretty wild about that one, but it mostly comes down to a secret involvement with the Order and Aberforth being aware of his wicked brother's plans. When things become very complicated with high risk of failure, Dumbeldore tends to turn away from the key-person involved. The distance shown between the two brothers makes me think that Aberforth has a great(er) part to play in Book 7.

Besides this all, Harry has always been a good observor, but mostly a poor judger. His emotions usually tend to get in the way, and they will probably do even more from now on. Snape actually trying to prove his loyalty to Harry will be pretty useless. Harry needs to be shown what the exact truth is by logical events that point in no other way.

And as for the Order, I reserve a part for Remus Lupin for that. They somehow share a connection only they seem to understand, and perhaps Dumbeldore too. Even though they are not on friendly terms, they have been tolerating each other as much as they both could.

And to get completely crazy, I do believe in a second Unbreakable Vow. If Dumbledore was capable of committing Snapeto finish him off, he would certainly be capable of pulling Snape in to take the Vow. Remember that he'd put Snape in life-danger many times before with his requests, especially as a spy for the Order. And why shouldn't he? With the upcoming events, everybody is in life danger.
As for the Binder, I don't think it would have been Hagrid. Hagrid is too impulsive for that (nice guy though, Hagrid).
Again, I place my bets on Lupin. That would also point out why he would trust Snape.


There are of course many things that could tick of my theories... but we will only know that for sure untill the book comes out.


__________________
CoS Graphics Contest

'Today we shall discuss-'
'-werewolves,' said Snape.

Turn to page 394


  #69  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 10:51 am
Dee  Undisclosed.gif Dee is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4625 days
Location: In The Moonlight Sonata
Posts: 5
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I don't know Snape is good or evil. But I think Snape is a half evil and a half good


__________________

Life is so bored without a secret...

Don't you think?
  #70  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 11:32 am
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Ashwinder, very interesting post.

Quote:
I suspect Fawkes will have a great part in that, either by physical appearance or Snape's Patronus changing into a phoenix.
I love the idea of the phoenix patronus returning by someone's patronus changing. My top vote would be for Harry rather than Snape though since Dumbledore was essentially Harry's surrogate father. Harry loved the idea of James, but he loves the reality of Dumbledore. The thought that Snape's patronus is somehow related to Lily is kicking around the forums because of JKR's statement that Snape's patronus gives too much away. Of course a patronus related to Dumbledore (or if Snape cannot produce one at all) fits the bill too.

Quote:
Besides this all, Harry has always been a good observor, but mostly a poor judger. His emotions usually tend to get in the way, and they will probably do even more from now on. Snape actually trying to prove his loyalty to Harry will be pretty useless. Harry needs to be shown what the exact truth is by logical events that point in no other way.
Excellent observation about Harry's lack of judgment. Snape will never lower himself to proving he is loyal and anything Snape does in the future doesn't say conclusively what his loyalties were in the past. That's why I'm so fond of the idea that Snape and Lily were good friends (like Harry and Hermione) even after her marriage. When Harry finds out (and I think he will find out early in book 7 from Petunia when she learns Dumbledore is dead) he will begin a journey to find out what his mother saw in Snape.

There is a fun thread about a Snape Lily unbreakable vow, I hope you'll consider visiting it. If there is indeed another unbreakable vow my vote is on these two rather than Dumbledore. Dumbledore believes in the power of trust and respect so I do have trouble with the idea he would require an unbreakable vow. My bet would be, if a second one exists, that Snape forced Lily into one that involved Snape renouncing any alliance with practitioners of the Dark Arts. I think there is a huge difference between someone demanding an unbreakable vow of someone else and a request to accept an unbreakable vow of one's own. Lily might have accepted the vow as a motivational tool to keep Snape on the safe side of magic. Rather like Alcoholics Anonymous but you die of one gives in to one's craving!

I'm not quite clear on your suggestion for a tie between Lupin and Snape but I'd love to hear about it. I don't think he could be a binder because wasn't Lupin present at the post-tower gathering in HBP when Harry states flatly Snape murdered Dumbledore? They all seemed to be going on about the fact that Dumbledore had never told them why he trusted Snape. Of course if Lupin did have extra information we already have canon that supports he will keep it to himself. He certainly didn't offer up the information on his close relationship with Harry's parents and trying to justify Snape's loyalties right after Harry's bombshell may not be the best time. I still think Dumbledore's secrecy has to be because Snape has always been a spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore. Dumbledore would never give that information to anyone else. They have no need to know, and it would endanger Snape. His situation is already extremely precarious without leaks.


  #71  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 12:47 pm
taupimu  Female.gif taupimu is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 4840 days
Posts: 630
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

In this particular case, I think that if you trust Dumbledore than you would still have to believe that Snape will be loyal.

As far as the plot goes, I think we will be in the dark for most of the seventh book as to what Snape is up to. But at least in HBP, JKR allowed us to learn from Snape things that Harry didn't know. It might be nice if that continued in to the next book. That would give is the story from two perspectives.
I do not necessarily believe we will know Snape's loyalties because of that.

It sure didn't help to deside about Snape because we were at Spinner's End.


  #72  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 12:59 pm
guad's Avatar
guad  Undisclosed.gif guad is offline
Mrs Grawp
 
Joined: 4827 days
Location: Rocking with BAS DÖSE
Posts: 3,618
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
Dumbledore believes in the power of trust and respect so I do have trouble with the idea he would require an unbreakable vow.
I agree. Dumbledore might have had his reasons to trust Snape, but I doubt they are in an unbreakable vow. Dumbledore also believed that the most powerful thing is Love, so my guess is that you'll have to look there.

It will be nearly impossible for Snape to prove his loyatly to Harry, because there are too many bitter feelings involved, on both parts. He will not even try to do so.

Actually, I am keen of the idea of a Pensieve. It has happened before, that Harry has found out that Snape was indeed right about something, making Harry to feel sorry for Snape, through a Pensieve, so this could happen again. Dumbledores pensieve, Snapes, I don't know. And we have learned that memories are not easily modified, at least now Harry will know what a modified memorie looks like (fog...)
Whatever it is, it will come as a great shock for Harry.

And for the rest of the world, he will not be able to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore, because may it as it be, he KILLED Dumbledore with an unforgivable, and this is a fact that the wizarding society will not forget nor forgive, even if it was planned by Dumbledore. Therefore my conclusion is that Snapes death is nearly as sure as Voldemorts death.


__________________

guads random creative moments: Fanart and Fanfiction

Support the True Heroes! Joins Squiddies Army!


BAS DÖSE! More META L than EVER!
  #73  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 1:27 pm
Ashwinder  Female.gif Ashwinder is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 4639 days
Location: the Netherlands
Age: 38
Posts: 82
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Hi HPSpec,


Yes, I considered the change of Harry's Patronus too for while, but Harry seems very attached to his unknown family. If I was in Harry's shoes, it would make me feel a bit sorry to see that the Patronus that had been of such good use in the past had changed from a stag to a phoenix. Almost like saying goodbye to a little part of yourself, and saying goodbye to the little part of his father that lives on in him. Therefor I still believe that Harry will keep his stag-Patronus, only it will be a mych more stronger one. (why does the changing/evolving of a Patronus make me think of Pokemon right now..? )

Snape having the phoenix on his side how ever, completely fits my view (maybe not others, but that's fair of course ).

The second Unbreakable Vow...you got me thinking there!
I'm definately not convinced that Dumbledore would ever take one, perhaps only if they could both get on terms that are in the benefit for the both. But then again, would a Vow be a necessary action to take? I actualy don't think so, but I like the idea. I believe that there is a 'dark' side about Dumbledore that we might still get to know more about. His noblety and powers are huge, but he can't be flawless. (Referring to his famous quote about 'mistakes being correspondingly huger'.) Indeed you are right, Dumbledore seems to be more a man of trust and respect.

While thinking about this, another thought popped up (as in a reason why Dumbledore would have trusted Snape). The old man has been more than once referred to as somebody who seems to know about upcoming events, and one who doesn't need a cloak to become invisible. Could this perhaps possibly lead to the reason why he trusts Severus Snape?

Why I think Remus Lupin and Severus Snape are somehow tied? It's more of a gut feeling then that I actually have (canon) proof for it. Well, there is some of course. They share their Hogwarts times together of course, Snape brews the Wolfsbane potion for Lupin, they both seem to be some sort of outcast and both have been spying for the Order. Lupin just might be the very one who understands the difficult situation Snape had been in for many years, and might be the first to understand why and how the killing of Dumbledore could have taken place.

Interesting thought about the secrecy of Snape's position. But isn't it so that most of the Order members, as well as the Death Eaters are aware of his spying position? And they both seem to settle with the trust both their 'masters' have in the apparent devotion of the spy himself.
Secrecy would not add much in this position...

However, it might just be so that nobody specifically asked for the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I can't remember that anyone ever asked this question, but I have to do some re-reading to be sure.

Pfff...done cracking my brains, I'll check on the Vow/Lily/Snape thread!


__________________
CoS Graphics Contest

'Today we shall discuss-'
'-werewolves,' said Snape.

Turn to page 394


  #74  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 1:49 pm
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Posted by taupimu:
But at least in HBP, JKR allowed us to learn from Snape things that Harry didn't know. It might be nice if that continued in to the next book. That would give is the story from two perspectives.
Interesting idea. Can we assume that JKR used Spinner's End to give what is essentially the first half of a two part book (I believe JKR said that) a quest for the reader that it wouldn't have had otherwise? (Quest = figuring out what Draco is upto as we know he is up to something due to Spinner's End.) If so, do we think that this plot device will be necessary again?
Quote:
Posted by guad:
I agree. Dumbledore might have had his reasons to trust Snape, but I doubt they are in an unbreakable vow. Dumbledore also believed that the most powerful thing is Love, so my guess is that you'll have to look there.

It will be nearly impossible for Snape to prove his loyatly to Harry, because there are too many bitter feelings involved, on both parts. He will not even try to do so.
You have my complete agreement on all of these points, but I am hoping that the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape is becuase Snape has been training as a spy and spying for the Order since the start of his sixth year at Hogwarts. It could explain so many things. And rest assured, I do not think Snape will ever upstage Harry becuase of Harry's capacity for love/forgiveness (traits that Snape doesn't seem to have in abundance). Snape may prove to have been a hero on the correct side the entire time but he is still an 'nasty git' of a professor.
Quote:
And for the rest of the world, he will not be able to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore, because may it as it be, he KILLED Dumbledore with an unforgivable, and this is a fact that the wizarding society will not forget nor forgive, even if it was planned by Dumbledore. Therefore my conclusion is that Snapes death is nearly as sure as Voldemorts death.
I'd stake a significant sum that your last statement is true. But I am fascinated by the whole scene on the tower. Just like the timing of the prophecy, something is just not quite right with that Aveda Kadavra. I don't think Dumbledore ever asked Snape to murder him (however an acceptable request would be to fail to sacrifice himself or his cover to save Dumbledore). My favorite theory (read on the forums somewhere) is Snape doing a non-verbal to levitate and drop Dumbledore while doing a verbal Aveda Kadavra, but talk about impossible timing...but if this far-fetched idea has a chance I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore needed to stop himself from plastering the pavement but was too weak. This would fit with JKR saying that Dumbledore had not intented to die without Snape actually doing the killing (although I don't think he could duck a manslaughter charge).

Ashwinder, thanks for responding! I labor so long over my posts you posted before I saw it so I'll have to append and hope that you notice.
Quote:
Posted by Ashwinder:
While thinking about this, another thought popped up (as in a reason why Dumbledore would have trusted Snape). The old man has been more than once referred to as somebody who seems to know about upcoming events, and one who doesn't need a cloak to become invisible. Could this perhaps possibly lead to the reason why he trusts Severus Snape?
A fun idea! To play along, Dumbledore scoffs at poor Trelawney's abilities but interviewed her anyway because he knew he'd get something useful!
Quote:
Posted by Ashwinder:
Why I think Remus Lupin and Severus Snape are somehow tied? [...]they both seem to be some sort of outcast and both have been spying for the Order. Lupin just might be the very one who understands the difficult situation Snape had been in for many years, and might be the first to understand why and how the killing of Dumbledore could have taken place.
This is fabulous, I never thought (nor have I seen anyone else think) about the fact that Lupin can have empathy for Snape because they have both been outcasts and spies. With that information I can really buy into the idea that Lupin will help Harry understand Snape. Unfortunately, I think Snape is too nasty to go the other direction. Wasn't he the reason Lupin lost the DADA job? (I'm not into the curse, I think that is just rumor. And of course a convenient excuse to change out professors).

Quote:
Posted by Ashwinder:
Interesting thought about the secrecy of Snape's position. But isn't it so that most of the Order members, as well as the Death Eaters are aware of his spying position? And they both seem to settle with the trust both their 'masters' have in the apparent devotion of the spy himself.
Secrecy would not add much in this position...
Oh good! There is nothing I love better than testing if my theories can hold water under fierce (well, in this case friendly) questioning. The public story known by everyone (including Voldemort and the Death Eaters) is that Snape was a DE devotee but switch sides just before Voldemort was banished (Lily is given as the reason but I don't know if that is common knowledge), then Snape returned to Voldemort in GoF - after GoF each side thinking he works for them. So in public opinion Snape was a DE, then a spy for Dumbledore just prior to the Potters deaths, then in GoF for the first time he became a double agent. My theory is that Snape, from the very beginning, entered into Voldemort's service as a Dumbledore spy. He has never been a true Voldemort servant. This is what is secret, Dumbledore couldn't even use this defense in the Magic Court because Dumbledore didn't believe Voldemort was gone and wanted to preserve Snape as a future Voldemort spy. If Voldemort heard that Snape joined the DEs as a spy for Dumbledore it wouldn't matter what Snape's loyalties were now (even with the apparent murder of Dumbledore by Snape), Snape would be under a DE death sentence in an instant. I'm rather certain Voldemort would kill Snape himself because Snape entering the DEs as a mole would mean that Voldemort had been duped. Not something our Dark Lord would tolerate.


  #75  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 3:28 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4830 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
Oh good! There is nothing I love better than testing if my theories can hold water under fierce (well, in this case friendly) questioning. The public story known by everyone (including Voldemort and the Death Eaters) is that Snape was a DE devotee but switch sides just before Voldemort was banished (Lily is given as the reason but I don't know if that is common knowledge), then Snape returned to Voldemort in GoF - after GoF each side thinking he works for them. So in public opinion Snape was a DE, then a spy for Dumbledore just prior to the Potters deaths, then in GoF for the first time he became a double agent. My theory is that Snape, from the very beginning, entered into Voldemort's service as a Dumbledore spy. He has never been a true Voldemort servant. This is what is secret, Dumbledore couldn't even use this defense in the Magic Court because Dumbledore didn't believe Voldemort was gone and wanted to preserve Snape as a future Voldemort spy. If Voldemort heard that Snape joined the DEs as a spy for Dumbledore it wouldn't matter what Snape's loyalties were now (even with the apparent murder of Dumbledore by Snape), Snape would be under a DE death sentence in an instant. I'm rather certain Voldemort would kill Snape himself because Snape entering the DEs as a mole would mean that Voldemort had been duped. Not something our Dark Lord would tolerate.
Perhaps a trifle OT for this thread...but it is directly related to your theory, so here goes...
The biggest objection I can see to the theory you propose is the whole deal with the Prophecy. It seems pretty clear that Voldemort knew there WAS a prophecy, and in particular heard at least the part about 'born to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies'. And I think we have to conclude from all the evidence we have that this information was provided by Snape. If he was a Dumbledore spy at the time, did he tell the prophecy to Voldemort on his own initiative? If so, why? If not, that means Dumbledore told him to do it. And thus, he's still misleading Harry, to the very end of his life. I'm curious as to what you think about this issue.

Of course, there are questions your theory answers. Like, why did Snape keep his mouth shut all those years about Lupin? (Because Dumbledore asked him to, and they already had a close enough relationship that he would agree to such a request, would be the answer by your theory. And also, that Snape already had more important things to worry about than his rivalry with the Marauders, however annoying they might have been to him.)


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #76  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 9:42 pm
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Ooooh, I love questions!
Quote:
Posted by zgirnius:
It seems pretty clear that Voldemort knew there WAS a prophecy, and in particular heard at least the part about 'born to those who thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies'. And I think we have to conclude from all the evidence we have that this information was provided by Snape.
No arguments there, Snape gave Voldemort half of the prophecy. I consider that canon.

Quote:
Posted by zgirnius:
If he was a Dumbledore spy at the time, did he tell the prophecy to Voldemort on his own initiative? If so, why? If not, that means Dumbledore told him to do it. And thus, he's still misleading Harry, to the very end of his life. I'm curious as to what you think about this issue.
Yes this is the most difficult hurdle (I believe Dumbledore gave Snape half the prophecy to give to Voldemort). And all I can say to defend the idea is that Dumbledore has to tread carefully for two reasons. Voldemort isn't looking into Harry's mind anymore but Harry never did learn Occlumency. If Harry learned to believe in Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore that would be very dangerous for Snape if my supposition of Snape always being Dumbledore's spy is even generally accurate. Although Dumbledore doesn't actively encourage Harry to hate Snape, Dumbledore does trust Snape but is unwilling to give Harry the reason. This has to be significant. The second reason is Harry at present hates Snape, he is not ready for the information that this aweful man is indeed horrible but is on the correct side of the battle and is important to its success. Dumbledore thinks Harry is critical to the downfall of Voldemort but Harry does have a choice to participate in the action. It is unlikely, not not inconceivable, that Harry would run the other direction (to pacifism, not Voldemort) if he learned he had to work with Snape. JKR has stated that the battle with Snape is now more personal than the battle with Voldemort. He has more emotion invested in it. Morgan_Emerald posted the quote on a thread recently so if you want to see it you can look at her recent posts.

Quote:
Posted by zgirnius:
Of course, there are questions your theory answers. Like, why did Snape keep his mouth shut all those years about Lupin? (Because Dumbledore asked him to, and they already had a close enough relationship that he would agree to such a request, would be the answer by your theory. And also, that Snape already had more important things to worry about than his rivalry with the Marauders, however annoying they might have been to him.)
Wow, I hadn't even thought of that! Thanks for more support of the theory!


  #77  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 9:54 pm
Kidney Pie's Avatar
Kidney Pie  Female.gif Kidney Pie is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 5216 days
Posts: 1,118
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think he will drink the same kind of potion Dumbledore drank and therefore relieve his regrets. I don't know what was in the potion Dumbledore drank, but it either made him relive his fears or regrets, or it made him see what happened that day in the cave or something. It is still kind of a mystery as to what the potion did to Dumbledore. But I think if Snape drank it then the results would be interesting. So I think he might not willingly tell Harry what he is feeling inside. But if forced to drink a simular potion, or tricked (but how can you trick a potion master?) he will reveal information. Anyway, it would be interesting to see him pour out his most private thoughts to Harry. Maybe Harry can achieve this through Occulemancy, which would surprize Snape. Maybe Harry will get better at it. It was Dumbledore's wish that Harry master closing his mind. But Lummanacy is also important I think. So maybe he can learn both. To look but not to have anyone else to look in his mind back. Anyway, Harry might try to do this since Dumbledore had wanted him to, and now Dumbledore is dead, so Harry might honor his dying wish basically. I mean, he might do it because he knows it was what Dumbledore wanted and it would have made Dumbledore proud. Sometimes people achieve things after someone dies as a way of honoring that person. Maybe they had the power to do it the whole time, but it is only after the death of that person that they have the will.


__________________

Join the ASA today and help prevent spoilers!
Or face the wrath of the four-legged duckling of dooooom!

Severus Snape= Pauses Nerves
Deathly Hallows= The old hallways
  #78  
Old February 22nd, 2006, 10:23 pm
Tane  Female.gif Tane is offline
Secret Keeper
 
Joined: 5379 days
Location: DA
Age: 45
Posts: 5,734
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
Actually, this is what I think too. But he still needs to 'prove' (as in demonstrate convincingly) his loyalty to Harry. Not because he wasn't acting loyally in HBP, but because appearances were rather against him.

I do think there is a redemption story going on with Snape, but it is backstory. He needs redemption in the sense that, what, 17-8 years ago now, he was a Death Eater, and told Voldemort the part of he Prophecy he heard, giving Voldemort as reason to kill Harry and his parents. He won't completely have closure on his evil past until Voldemort and his followers are no longer in a position to harm Harry and others.
I would agree with that comment and also add that Hermione did say that Snape and Harry where not that dissimilar just after the first defense against the dark arts class. That in itself suggests that by the end of HBP, if Snape did not really desire to kill Dumbledore then Snape will probably be wanting revenge on Voldemort as much as Harry does want revenge over Snape killing Dumbledore.

I can not see words bailing Snape out but more actions but what those actions are I just can not say. Snape must have a way of proving his loyalty and the only way I think this could be proven is if Dumbledore left the memory of that argument Hagrid over heard in the pensieve.


  #79  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 1:20 am
HPSpec's Avatar
HPSpec  Female.gif HPSpec is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 4628 days
Location: Down the rabbit hole
Posts: 1,885
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Tane interesting canon about Hermione noting the similarities between Snape and Harry. I'd love to see the quote! Do you have it? Are you open to the idea that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he knew Snape entered the Death Eaters to be a mole for the Order?

Kidney Pie interesting that you mention legilimens because it helped my come up with an alternate theory for zgirnius's concern!

Quote:
Posted by zgirnius:
If he was a Dumbledore spy at the time, did he tell the prophecy to Voldemort on his own initiative? If so, why? If not, that means Dumbledore told him to do it. And thus, he's still misleading Harry, to the very end of his life. I'm curious as to what you think about this issue.
Zgirnius I have it. Voldemort's legilimens ability is the key to assuring the loyalty of his people, we know Snape controls this via occlumens but that takes effort and can be broken. A fifteen year old Harry managed it so I'd be shaking in my shoes if that was all I was counting on to protect me. I'm now thinking that Snape made sure he had no memories he needed to hide from Voldemort! His 'handler' for the Order (in spy speak) was Lily and Lily learned legilimens so Snape would let her in and show her what he had gotten from Voldemort. If Voldemort went into Snape's memory, he would only see Lily verbally telling him news of the Order she wanted passed to Voldemort (not saying that of course) then in a moment of 'friendship eye gazing' (Voldemort thinks the reason Lily gives Snape info is only friendship not 'to mislead the enemy') Snape gives Lily information for the Order. Thus the prophecy can explained as an accident. Dumbledore hears the prophecy, contacts Lily via patronus (because he knows she's pregnant? Because he wants her to send Snape?) and Lily (for some reason unknown) contacts Snape. Snape shows up, hears part of the prophecy and since he was called there by Lily assumes that the information is to be passed on to Voldemort. Voila, it was all a 'mistake' just as Dumbledore said. Of course the huge gap is why Lily had Snape come...


  #80  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 2:30 am
SilverArrow  Male.gif SilverArrow is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 4650 days
Location: Ridin' Up and Down Broadway
Age: 27
Posts: 311
Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I believe that Snape has already proven his loyalty do Voldemort's side by murdering Dumbledore, and thats all there is to it. Period.


 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Harry Potter Archives > Divination Studies

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:51 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.