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How will Snape prove his loyalty?



 
 
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  #81  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 2:45 am
DJR  Male.gif DJR is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think Snape will prove his loyalty by finding a Horcrux and getting rid of a couple of Death Eaters.

I honestly believe Snape is good and was and is folling Dumbledore's order's.

Please post your thoughts.


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  #82  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 2:53 am
LordScorpto  Undisclosed.gif LordScorpto is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

i believe snape killed dumbledore on his orders or pretended to at least...even when harry was trying to duel him outside the grounds before he got away..snape could have killed more people on his exit out of there..and when he and harry were dueling he said something along the lines of "you cannot curse me until you learn to close your mind"...something like that...and reading that gives me the idea that he is kinda hinting to him to learn to do that..i think he will be proven to be on the good side in book 7


  #83  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 3:01 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think that the mind closing thing was a taunt, because he knows that harry is incapable of doing it. He really screwed up any chance harry had of learning occlumency durring their lessons in OOTP. He never really showed harry how to do it correctly.


  #84  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 3:28 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Posted by DJR:
Please post your thoughts.
DJR, I'm a first year too! Read back a page or two in this thread and you'll find some theories that follow your line of thought. Try to comment on them, expand the ideas with your own musings and start a fun discussion!


  #85  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 3:45 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
I'm now thinking that Snape made sure he had no memories he needed to hide from Voldemort! His 'handler' for the Order (in spy speak) was Lily and Lily learned legilimens so Snape would let her in and show her what he had gotten from Voldemort. If Voldemort went into Snape's memory, he would only see Lily verbally telling him news of the Order she wanted passed to Voldemort (not saying that of course) then in a moment of 'friendship eye gazing' (Voldemort thinks the reason Lily gives Snape info is only friendship not 'to mislead the enemy') Snape gives Lily information for the Order.
I like the general idea of Legilimency as a way Snape can betray Voldemort's plans and secrets without developing incriminating memories. Neat.

Quote:
Thus the prophecy can explained as an accident. Dumbledore hears the prophecy, contacts Lily via patronus (because he knows she's pregnant? Because he wants her to send Snape?) and Lily (for some reason unknown) contacts Snape. Snape shows up, hears part of the prophecy and since he was called there by Lily assumes that the information is to be passed on to Voldemort. Voila, it was all a 'mistake' just as Dumbledore said. Of course the huge gap is why Lily had Snape come...
We have Trelawney's story that Snape overheard the prophecy at the Hog's Head. Are you discounting it? I mean, he could have not actually heard anything, but he was there. To then have accidentally heard part of the prophecy because he happened to be around when Dumbledore told Lily about it seems a big coincidence.

Also, the timing all seems off. Why would Dumbledore tell Lily while she was pregnant? 'Due dates' for babies are given with a margin of +/- two weeks (at least by Muggle OB/GYNs ). So it was by no means clear Harry would be born as the seventh month dies.

OK, so the Lily/Dumbledore conversation could have taken place after Harry was born...I think I'll still go with Snape having been a 'real' death eater at some point.


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  #86  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 4:16 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Posted by zgirnius
We have Trelawney's story that Snape overheard the prophecy at the Hog's Head. Are you discounting it? I mean, he could have not actually heard anything, but he was there. To then have accidentally heard part of the prophecy because he happened to be around when Dumbledore told Lily about it seems a big coincidence.
zgirnius, I was thinking Lily never heard the prophecy herself. The Order communicates by patronus and from OoP I got the idea this was nearly instanteous (speed of light and all that) and we know apparation is very fast. So my thought was Dumbledore is at Hogshead with Trelawney, Trelawney starts in on the prophecy, Dumbledore realizes immediately it relates to Voldemort and wants Snape there so he sends a patronus to Lily with 'send Snape to Hogshead room blah', she forwards it and Snape apparates. Dumbledore sends a patronus to Aberforth 'catch Snape at the door spying and toss him out'.

But I believe there are serious flaws with the Snape/Trelawney/Dumbledore timing, but those exist no matter how Snape happened to be at Hogshead at the right time. But being friends with Lily could give Snape an excuse for being there 'Oh master, the gullible red haired Potter woman let slip that Dumbledore is interviewing, I went to eavesdrop in case any useful information came out of it' kind of thing. I guess I should point out that I don't think Voldemort would buy that a 22 year old Snape would get information from Dumbledore so if Snape tried to claim that was his source Voldemort would immediately be suspicious. But I believe Voldemort would by that a 'weak little woman' (Lily) might unintentionally expose some useful secrets.
Quote:
Posted by zgirnius
I think I'll still go with Snape having been a 'real' death eater at some point.
I'll just have to work harder

Last minute thought. What if Lily's patronus came when Snape was in Voldemort's presence? Snape would have to come right back and couldn't risk lying to Voldemort so gives him the prophecy. Perhaps Dumbledore had originally only wanted the option open. Nah. A bit convoluted (can you believe I said that?)



Last edited by HPSpec; February 23rd, 2006 at 6:05 am.
  #87  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 8:05 am
Holly_ncl Holly_ncl is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Nah i think that at that point snape was a full death eater all the way. He just happend to be in the right place at the right time, to hear the prophecy. He wanted extra credit with the dark lord so immediately told him of the prophecy. It was only later that he relised that it might relate to lilly. So when he finds this out and finds out the dark lord is going to kill the child he makes a request of him not to kill lilly. This is why she has a option to live or die, where as james doesn't. The dark lord ends up killing lilly, when snape finds out, he OD's on guilt; (at this point i think the snape loves lilly theory to be true). Snape now has reason to dislike the dark lord. Hes gone agenst snapes one request, lilly is dead so snape feels the only way to make up for his mistake in trusting the dark lord is to become a spy at great personal risk to himself. Snape being a very closed off person would not want the rest of the order knowing any of this as it clearly shows he has a great deal of emotion for other people, so he'd only tell A.D.

Anyway this is just my theroy on this matter and i no doubt it could be completly wrong.


  #88  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 8:18 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Posted by Holly_ncl:
Anyway this is just my theroy on this matter and i no doubt it could be completly wrong.
Without a doubt we will all be completely wrong, but we love speculating!

And as always, thanks for the chance to try to convince you! My continued defense in response to the 'nah, Snape was a true Death Eater' stomp of my theory is that 1) this is what we have been lead to believe, and when does JKR ever resist kicking us out of our complacency? and 2) my theory explains a lot more.
Examples of what it explains:
- The Huge Revelation about Lily
- Why Voldemort gave Lily a choice (really the same as above)
- Why JKR is 'stunned' by the question about Snape's redemption pattern
- What is significant about Petunia and the 'conversation overheard'
- How Petunia was forced to take Harry in PS/SS and why she keeps him in OoP after the Howler
- Why Dumbledore's trust in Snape is unshakable
- and finally, why Dumbledore does not give a reason for this trust
And to all that the bonus that it gives Harry an early 'Snape is not all his seems' kick at the beginning of book seven when Petunia finds out Dumbledore is dead. This will allow Harry to let go of his hate even if he never likes the man. That will take most of the book.
Not a bad list for one theory.

Believing that Snape was a true Death Eater just asks more questions
- When, if ever?, did he switch sides?
- Why does Dumbledore trust him?
- Would Lily really have been friends with someone so flawed they became a Death Eater?
- And the real kicker, why would he be concerned by Voldemort's targeting of the Potters?
The common answer to the last one is, 'disappointment in Lily is what led him to join the Death Eaters'. But if so, what would cause the change of heart? Finding out she is pregnant should just be another blow to his bruised sensibilities.

I argue that all of you that want to believe Snape is evil wish to take the 'easy way'. It is easier to believe someone is as horrible as they seem rather than dig for the few redeeming traits that each and every one of us has. Snape is unpleasant to the extreme, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right goals.

Fun, fun, fun! Fire away!



Last edited by HPSpec; February 23rd, 2006 at 9:58 am.
  #89  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 8:52 am
Ashwinder  Female.gif Ashwinder is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec

Ashwinder, thanks for responding! I labor so long over my posts you posted before I saw it so I'll have to append and hope that you notice.
I noticed

Quote:
This is fabulous, I never thought (nor have I seen anyone else think) about the fact that Lupin can have empathy for Snape because they have both been outcasts and spies. With that information I can really buy into the idea that Lupin will help Harry understand Snape. Unfortunately, I think Snape is too nasty to go the other direction. Wasn't he the reason Lupin lost the DADA job? (I'm not into the curse, I think that is just rumor. And of course a convenient excuse to change out professors).
Lupin is a nice guy. The silent type, but still the own who tends to see both sides of a story. And if I recall correctly, he was the one who said that the regrets tha fact for not stopping Sirius and James for playing their pranks.
Snape is nasty sometimes (forgive me, I have a lot of sympathy for the guy...) and can act very childish every now and then. Snape accidently mentioning Lupins hairy little problem at the breakfast table is so like him. However, he needs to be triggered. If Snape is acting at his best, there is usually a very close event that made him act the way he did. With the Marauders Map for example, he was insulted and we get to see a lovely childish reaction. With the mentioning of the hairy problem, he just heard that he had lost the Order of Merlin (second class if I recall correctly).
So is he nasty? Yes, but usually with a (good, if I may add) reason.

Quote:
The public story known by everyone (including Voldemort and the Death Eaters) is that Snape was a DE devotee but switch sides just before Voldemort was banished (Lily is given as the reason but I don't know if that is common knowledge), then Snape returned to Voldemort in GoF - after GoF each side thinking he works for them. So in public opinion Snape was a DE, then a spy for Dumbledore just prior to the Potters deaths, then in GoF for the first time he became a double agent. My theory is that Snape, from the very beginning, entered into Voldemort's service as a Dumbledore spy. He has never been a true Voldemort servant. This is what is secret, Dumbledore couldn't even use this defense in the Magic Court because Dumbledore didn't believe Voldemort was gone and wanted to preserve Snape as a future Voldemort spy. If Voldemort heard that Snape joined the DEs as a spy for Dumbledore it wouldn't matter what Snape's loyalties were now (even with the apparent murder of Dumbledore by Snape), Snape would be under a DE death sentence in an instant. I'm rather certain Voldemort would kill Snape himself because Snape entering the DEs as a mole would mean that Voldemort had been duped. Not something our Dark Lord would tolerate.
Sorry, still not completely convinced about the Death Eater secrecy-theory
I just can't see why it would add something. Snape had been working for Dumbledore 16 years, and according to his words at Spinner's End he applied for the job by Voldemort's request.
Dumbledore, knowing that he is/was a Death Eater, hired him under certain conditions. To my opinion it was that very moment, the job interview, where Snape proved his loyalties to Dumbledore. Perhaps he asked Snape to take the interview under the influence of Veritaserum (that would make more sense than an UV). He could even have asked Snape to continue his position at Voldemort's side and settle for the position of a double-spy. If this is the case, the memory would be a dangerous one for both Snape and Dumbledore. That is where the Pensieve and a bottle of silvery fluid would come in handy, stored somewhere secret, only for certain people to find when in time of need (and I think that time is now).

Ok, I get the secrecy point now If Dumbledore had revealed the true reason for his trust in Severus Snape, it would have ruined everything.

However, I still think Snape had not always been a spy for Dumbledore. I do believe he has been a faithful Death Eater on Voldemort's side. And I do believe Lily was the cause of his emotional shut-down.
Lily could have loved Snape for a while, and Snape could have loved her back. The interfering of James Potter however, parted them and he felt the interference as a betrayal. Consequence: a lonely and embittered Snape, locking up his emotions in a safe dark place and hence became a master in the arts of Occlumency, and on top of it he became a faithful Death Eater.

Can you still follow me? It's a bot of a mess in my head right now...


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  #90  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 8:59 am
Tane  Female.gif Tane is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
Tane interesting canon about Hermione noting the similarities between Snape and Harry. I'd love to see the quote! Do you have it? Are you open to the idea that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he knew Snape entered the Death Eaters to be a mole for the Order?
YeS here is the quote:
HBP, Chapter 9, The Half Blood Prince, page 172Did you hear him talking about the Dark Arts? He loves them! All that unfixed, indestructible stuff -'
'Well,' said Hermione, 'I thought he sounded a bit like you.'
'Like me?'
'Yes, when you were telling us what it's like to face Voldemort. You said it wasn't just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you and your brains and your guts - well, wasn't that what Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and quick - thinking?'
Harry was so disarmed that she had thought his words as well worth memorizing as The Standard Book of Spells that he did not argue.
I think this quote in the book is one of the most important quotes that might explain what went on up in that tower. The title of the chapter is the title of the book and it is all about Snape and with in its pages lays the connection between Snape and Harry and how they are not that dissimilar. I believe one of the factors that made Dumbledore trust Snape was that exact same similarity between Snape and Harry that Hermione talks about. That Snape’s actions are governed by a gut feeling just like Harry’s actions and gut feelings really come from the heart.

I do not want to turn this into another Dumbledore is dead or alive thread but I think the gut feelings and the quick reactions Hermione is talking about might have played a part up in that tower (we know Snape reacted quickly and at the same time Harry left the tower with a gut feeling a gut feeling he could not quite explain).



Last edited by Tane; February 23rd, 2006 at 11:01 am.
  #91  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 9:28 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Tane, in regards to your Snape/Harry similiarity quote - I have just changed my 'interesting canon' to 'that's absolutely fabulous! I love it!'
This series is about the growth of Harry, I don't think he has finished growing up because he cannot see beyond Snape's hatred to the man within. Harry is still reacting to Snape rather than being a complete master of himself like Dumbledore. Dumbledore didn't care what others thought of him, he looked beyond their personal feelings to their usefulness in achieving his goals. It is very possible that Snape doesn't like Dumbledore and Dumbledore doesn't particularly like Snape, but they trust and respect one other and are working for the same goal, the downfall of Voldemort. The book canon you identified is strong support for the idea that Harry needs to see Snape for what he is, not what Harry has decided he is because Snape doesn't like Harry and isn't afraid to show it.

Ashwinder, glad you noticed!

Quote:
Posted by Ashwinder:
If Snape is acting at his best, there is usually a very close event that made him act the way he did.
Good catch, so Snape's a hypocrite too. He talks about Harry's failure to master his emotions but Snape is not even working on it himself at particular moments! Yes, good old Snape is tightly bottled but bursts occasionally.

Quote:
Posted by Ashwinder:
I do believe he has been a faithful Death Eater on Voldemort's side. And I do believe Lily was the cause of his emotional shut-down.
Now I hope I slipped in ahead of you since I give my response to that statement above. Agreement with my ideas would be nice, but attempts to poke holes in it are even better. It forces me to improve it!

The only other thing I will add is, do you really want Snape to be so weak (and impetuous) that he makes decisions based on the failure of a girl to respond to him? I view Snape as one of the most powerful figures in the book. He does not yet have Dumbledore's control and he will never have his goodness - but I think Snape is a powerful wizard that carefully calculates every move (except for those few minutes of unmastered emotion - but it takes a lot longer than a few minutes to become a Death Eater!) To be honest I don't see Snape as prone to romantic love, I think in that sense he is like Voldemort. He views that love makes one weak. If he did love Lily (romantically or platonically) he never admitted it to himself.



Last edited by HPSpec; February 23rd, 2006 at 9:30 am.
  #92  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 9:45 am
Awiana  Female.gif Awiana is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashwinder
However, I still think Snape had not always been a spy for Dumbledore. I do believe he has been a faithful Death Eater on Voldemort's side.
That’s what I think as well: Snape was at first a real Death Eater, but he then regretted his choice to join them and defected to Dumbledore.

I think that at this point most characters in the HP books are either inherently good or evil, and that actually somewhat annoys me about the books. Snape would be a welcome exception to that: a character who has at first made horribly wrong choices, but then regretted them and made the right choices. I think it would send a powerful message that redemption is possible: people can make wrong choices, but they can truly change and try to make up for their mistakes.

Snape having at one point been a loyal Death Eater also makes Dumbledore’s trust in him a much more powerful and beautiful thing, in my opinion. I guess most people would trust someone who has never been evil in the first place, but not everyone is going to accept and trust someone who has been a real Death Eater. The fact that Dumbledore did trust Snape and considered his remorse genuine shows what an exceptional person Dumbledore is.


  #93  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:00 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Well, these are just wild guesses. If he is proving his loyalty to the order, all he has to do is have Harry ask him what Dumbledore's favorite flavour of jam was, and take in some veritaserum himself and force himself to tell the truth.

Voldemort, he's already proven to him that he is loyal to him by killing Dumbledore. At least, we think he does.


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  #94  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:25 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Whoohoo! More debate! Clearly I'm not making any headway and I don't think any of you are even looking at my theory but I love looking at yours!

Quote:
Posted by Awiana:
Snape having at one point been a loyal Death Eater also makes Dumbledore’s trust in him a much more powerful and beautiful thing, in my opinion.
But don't you think this is played out in the fact that Dumbledore can trust a man that is clearly so flawed that he is abusive to children? I think *that* is evil, but Dumbledore is capable of looking beyond it. Dumbledore sees beyond the failings of Filch, as well. These people aren't nice by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think they will be evil. Just more flawed than most. You talk about making a wrong choice and changing it. In my opinion Snape makes the 'wrong choices' on a daily basis in regards to children, but he may be making the right decisions for the Voldemort cause.
Quote:
Posted by Awiana:
..but not everyone is going to accept and trust someone who has been a real Death Eater. The fact that Dumbledore did trust Snape and considered his remorse genuine shows what an exceptional person Dumbledore is.
I agree, but doesn't Dumbledore's willingness to 'trust' that Draco will do the right thing on top of the tower count as an example of this? Draco has been trying to murder Dumbledore all year and several students might have been killed but Dumbledore can forgive him and will take him over to the side of the Order. Even if Draco isn't a 'real' Death Eater he is awfully close. Draco clearly made the bad choices you talked about but deep down he really isn't Death Eater material and came to terms with it. Isn't that the case for anyone that is truly redeemed? They finally admitted to themselves that what they are doing is wrong but deep down they've always known that? Its the strength to say, 'I don't want this, I'm going to do what is right' that is lacking - they were never truly evil. In my opinion true evil never changes - Voldemort is not redeemable. Why? Because he has no conscience, that section of the brain simply doesn't function so they cannot change.

Ah, what fun! I hope you will argue back!


  #95  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:26 am
Holly_ncl Holly_ncl is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I agree with Awiana. JK wrote Dumbledore to be an amazing charater. I think that to make this point very clear in the books Snape had to be a Full death eater at one point. It also makes for a better stroy in my opinion because it fits better with the plot so far.


  #96  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:30 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Posted by Holly_ncl:
I agree with Awiana. JK wrote Dumbledore to be an amazing charater. I think that to make this point very clear in the books Snape had to be a Full death eater at one point. It also makes for a better stroy in my opinion because it fits better with the plot so far.
But how? You may be right but I don't see it (I think my idea answers many more plot questions per several posts above). This is a forum, not an opinion poll Teach me!


  #97  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:34 am
Ashwinder  Female.gif Ashwinder is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
Now I hope I slipped in ahead of you since I give my response to that statement above. Agreement with my ideas would be nice, but attempts to poke holes in it are even better. It forces me to improve it!

The only other thing I will add is, do you really want Snape to be so weak (and impetuous) that he makes decisions based on the failure of a girl to respond to him? I view Snape as one of the most powerful figures in the book. He does not yet have Dumbledore's control and he will never have his goodness - but I think Snape is a powerful wizard that carefully calculates every move (except for those few minutes of unmastered emotion - but it takes a lot longer than a few minutes to become a Death Eater!) To be honest I don't see Snape as prone to romantic love, I think in that sense he is like Voldemort. He views that love makes one weak. If he did love Lily (romantically or platonically) he never admitted it to himself.

Oh, you are challenging me, love it!
First, what I like so much about the books is that your personal point of view colours a lot of the context. We are tend to see what we 'want' to see because of our own opinions. Lovely, isn't it?

Yes, I read your reply on Holly_ncl.

However...I do consider Snape to be a very powerful wizard. Why? Because he has known the feeling of being loved before and because he knows how to love. We don't know by who, but logic brings me to Lily in this case. You make it sound so simple, that the failure of Lily's response to him would make him decide "oh well, let's walk over to the Dark Side then." That's not what I intended to say. Imagine yourself being loved, after many long years of an almost loveless life. And you fancy the one who shows affection for you. The tension grows stronger, and it's close to revelation. Then all of a sudden one of your biggest rivals runs in front of you with his charming face and bewitching smile, and your whole future changes in a matter of seconds.

Pushing away your feelings like that requires a great strenght, and apparently Snape possessed it. Knowing how to love can bring great fullfilment, but it also brings up your worst fears. In order to push away feelings, you must at least have experienced them. Voldemort on the other hand, rejecting any love in his life from the first attempt, that to me is a real show of weakness.
So no, I don't consider Severus Snape to be a weak person for joining the Death Eaters, for any reason.

To continue with that, I don't think that becoming a Death Eater is something you can accomomplish very easy. I believe that you have to be on the edge of your own reason to confide with a person such as Voldemort and his Death Eaters. If one could just walk in with double morals, become a Death Eater and spy on them following the orders of Dumbledore, that of course would explain a lot. But I don't think this is the case. I strongly believe that becoming a Death Eaters obliges you to fulfil tremendous and horrible tasks, and that your own brain will be put to the most agonizing tests (legillimens, for example).

Voldemort is the kind of person who demands a type of sacrifice. We have seen that before. Pettigrew betrayed his friends to prove loyalty (and he was a Griffyndor for goodness sake!). Destroying a Horcrux demands a sacrifice, regarding Ginny's state in the Chamber of Secrets. Entering the cave demanded a blood-sacrifice. And I also believe that Dumbledore's hand got so damaged because he destroyed the ring-Horcrux by sacrificing a part of himself.

So what would Snape have sacrificed I wonder? His love perhaps?

I know you didn't point the questions below at me, but my fingers are itching to type the answers (forgive me...)

- When, if ever?, did he switch sides?
I believe he switched to the Dark Side just after his seventh year at Hogwarts, and proved loyalty and regret to Dumbledore somewhere late 1981, beginning 1982.

- Why does Dumbledore trust him?
I can go crazy about several ideas, from Unbreakable Vows to Veritaserum(which for example has been used on the instructions of Dumbledore in GoF), but I think Dumbledore has rock-solid proof that Snape is loyal to him.

- Would Lily really have been friends with someone so flawed they became a Death Eater?
Lily of all persons would definately understand that one can make mistakes. She married James, and that says something about her forgiving qualities

- And the real kicker, why would he be concerned by Voldemort's targeting of the Potters?
For old times sake, I would say. For realising he had passed on incomplete information that led to the massacre. For realising deep down inside he was the one responsible for the death of the girl he once loved.

Please, do prove me wrong. I love to see your ideas on this

I can see we both have a lot of sympathy for Severus Snape, but our paths towards it slightly differ (which is nice to share by the way).


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  #98  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:42 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Yes, I read your reply on Holly_ncl.
Actually I was referring to my post #88 that you are all ignoring, but I can take it

More in a moment.


  #99  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:53 am
Ashwinder  Female.gif Ashwinder is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

But...that is post #88...right?
Definately not ignoring it, but how do you feel I am ignoring it? You made statements in it and I can't 'argue' with them because they seem hints to me what your theory could reveal, they do not actually state what you think the answer to them would be.

Sorry, getting a bit confused here....

(And as for me, I don't have a fixed theory, only a lot of suspision and an unfixable sympathy for Severus Snape. I just love to speculate and adjust my opinion every now and then).


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  #100  
Old February 23rd, 2006, 11:21 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Oh, you are challenging me, love it!
First, what I like so much about the books is that your personal point of view colours a lot of the context. We are tend to see what we 'want' to see because of our own opinions. Lovely, isn't it?
Oooh, thats good. And know I'm shaking in my shoes regarding how much information I've given on myself from the way that I've interpreted it!
Quote:
Pettigrew betrayed his friends to prove loyalty (and he was a Griffyndor for goodness sake!).
I suspect you are right (there has got to be Gryffindors that make bad decisions too) but apparently it isn't canon (yet) if HP-lexicon is to be trusted. From HP-lexicon: "It seems likely that he[Pettigrew], like the rest of that group of friends was in Gryffindor, but we just don't know."

Quote:
But I don't think this is the case. I strongly believe that becoming a Death Eaters obliges you to fulfil tremendous and horrible tasks, and that your own brain will be put to the most agonizing tests (legillimens, for example).
But isn't that what would make it more notable? They are at war, sacrifices are made. I've said in other posts that if James and Lily were asked whether the banishment of Voldemort for nearly a decade (plus I guess) was worth their deaths, they'd say yes. War is messy and I think Dumbledore has shown the ability to be ruthless - he is willing to sacrifice Harry (at least his childhood). And I can see Snape being able to see any Death Eater tests as sacrifices that need to be made.

That said, if I'm right Snape could go to Voldemort and say - 'I want to join and feed you information, but I won't kill'. Snape isn't an infantry man, he is selling access. If that access is good enough, Voldemort might bite without the tests because he has faith in his legilimens ability. He claims he knows when someone is lying. I'm hoping he is wrong!

Quote:
I know you didn't point the questions below at me, but my fingers are itching to type the answers (forgive me...)

- When, if ever?, did he switch sides?
I believe he switched to the Dark Side just after his seventh year at Hogwarts, and proved loyalty and regret to Dumbledore somewhere late 1981, beginning 1982.
You did read it! My responses aren't directed, they are general. Perhaps that is why I'm not getting responses! I'll have to figure out how to make that clear. I'm not grasping your idea of why he changed sides. I can buy your idea of why he went to Voldemort and it has just as much chance of being correct as mine (meaning most likely neither of them are what JKR will use) but I cannot square it with the regret. Read on for why.
Quote:
- Would Lily really have been friends with someone so flawed they became a Death Eater?
Lily of all persons would definately understand that one can make mistakes. She married James, and that says something about her forgiving qualities
Good point, but why did Snape's disappointment lead to the deatheaters? Did he want to kill them? Make them pay? That's what I took you to mean. This is what I cannot square with Lily. Someone deeply hurt can have those feelings, but actually doing them is another story. Like Draco on the tower. He wants to kill Dumbledore, but can't. I'm hoping Lily sees deep enough she would see someone who is superficially cruel but deep down he cannot be. So I can go with the 'Snape is a real DE' but not with her caring for him. Convince me!

Quote:
- And the real kicker, why would he be concerned by Voldemort's targeting of the Potters?
For old times sake, I would say. For realising he had passed on incomplete information that led to the massacre. For realising deep down inside he was the one responsible for the death of the girl he once loved.
Even though he joined the DEs out of revenge? (If that was your idea.) I understand the Potters had been escaping Voldemort up til the time of their deaths. I would buy the remorse idea if Snape converted AFTER the Potters died but he converted two months before. If his rage carried him through the initiations (the hurting of innocent people, or at least people Snape had no quarrel with) then how did the rage fail before anything happened to the Potters? And that's another thing, going through the initiation, hurting other people to get revenge? Again I can square this with a truly evil Snape but not a man that Lily cared for because she saw good in him.

I love this! There is either middle ground or we will agree to disagree. But I'm still learning so I hope you'll keep it up!

(And for any lurking moderators, this is (somewhat) on topic as we are determining if Snape NEEDS to prove his loyalty or will Harry learn of Snape's loyalty through his mother's backstory).


 
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