How will Snape prove his loyalty?

[Ashwinder]

Originally Posted by HPSpec

Oooh, thats good. And know I'm shaking in my shoes regarding how much information I've given on myself from the way that I've interpreted it!

Hihi, don't we all? I find that fascinating

And you're right, there is no canon proof if Pettigrew was a Gryffindor or not.

But isn't that what would make it more notable? They are at war, sacrifices are made. I've said in other posts that if James and Lily were asked whether the banishment of Voldemort for nearly a decade (plus I guess) was worth their deaths, they'd say yes. War is messy and I think Dumbledore has shown the ability to be ruthless - he is willing to sacrifice Harry (at least his childhood). And I can see Snape being able to see any Death Eater tests as sacrifices that need to be made.

Well, agree with you on this one. It would make it more notable.

You did read it! My responses aren't directed, they are general. Perhaps that is why I'm not getting responses! I'll have to figure out how to make that clear. I'm not grasping your idea of why he changed sides. I can buy your idea of why he went to Voldemort and it has just as much chance of being correct as mine (meaning most likely neither of them are what JKR will use) but I cannot square it with the regret. Read on for why.

Good point, but why did Snape's disappointment lead to the deatheaters? Did he want to kill them? Make them pay? That's what I took you to mean. This is what I cannot square with Lily. Someone deeply hurt can have those feelings, but actually doing them is another story. Like Draco on the tower. He wants to kill Dumbledore, but can't. I'm hoping Lily sees deep enough she would see someone who is superficially cruel but deep down he cannot be. So I can go with the 'Snape is a real DE' but not with her caring for him. Convince me!

Of course I read it! And I also think that if you work it out a little you will get more responses to it.
Ok, here's a shot. I think I figured out why I see it one way, and you the other. I strongly believe Snape didn't join the DE out of a form of revenge. I believe he joined them because they became an instant refuge for him. He is hurt, defeated by Mr Popular while he certainly realizes he is nothing James Potter is. The one girl he loved is swooped away in front of his hooked nose by his rival. Can you imagine how empty he must feel, how defeated? The guy's got nothing left to lose, and at least his 'friend' show some sympathy and probably even respect for him and his qualities. The wrong sorts of friends, perhaps, but I myself can picture his motivations for haning out with them very clearly.

Even though he joined the DEs out of revenge? (If that was your idea.) I understand the Potters had been escaping Voldemort up til the time of their deaths. I would buy the remorse idea if Snape converted AFTER the Potters died but he converted two months before. If his rage carried him through the initiations (the hurting of innocent people, or at least people Snape had no quarrel with) then how did the rage fail before anything happened to the Potters? And that's another thing, going through the initiation, hurting other people to get revenge? Again I can square this with a truly evil Snape but not a man that Lily cared for because she saw good in him.

Taking away the point that he joined out of revenge it puts his motivation in another daylight! (Well, at least for me )
He got through it all because joining them provided him a false sort of respectability. It takes time for some people to realise their mistakes, and he took quite a lot of it.
Still saying he joined them for the shelter they brought his hurt soul, it makes it perhaps easier to understand why he could regret his choices one day. I think, deep in his heart he still cherished a little sympathy for Lily.

I love this! There is either middle ground or we will agree to disagree. But I'm still learning so I hope you'll keep it up!

Agree

And that's why I think that there is some proof lurking around that will show Severus' loyalty. Although I also suspect that it will come out in several directions...there are a lot of people left over to convice. The readers, the Order and the Trio/Harry. That's why I'm putting my votes on hard evidence coming from Dumbledore himself to convince the reader, another way (e.g. the Phoenix Patronus) to convince Harry and another way to convince the Order (perhaps with the help of Lupin).

(I gave it a little twist to get it a little bit on topic again

[HPSpec]

Posted by Ashwinder:
Still saying he joined them for the shelter they brought his hurt soul, it makes it perhaps easier to understand why he could regret his choices one day. I think, deep in his heart he still cherished a little sympathy for Lily.

I now understand. Being accepted into a group is what most humans desire so I certainly understand that idea and I hadn't thought of it before (as I said, this is great - I'm learning!) The only thing I still cannot buy into is if the initiation process evolved true destruction of something. I can buy that Snape is capable of it, but not if Lily believed in him. The two are mutually exclusive in my mind (but thats just me, no canon support! Perhaps Lily was gullible. Of course there isn't any canon that Lily cared for him so that may make it a non-issue too!) But my disbelief rests on the assumption that the initiation involves testing Snape's willingness to hurt others (non-verbally, of course. He is excellent at verbal abuse...no problem there). This assumption may not be accurate so you'd be off the hook! Perhaps the initiation was merely legilimens and Snape's service was brewing potions so he didn't have to harm anyone directly (at least not on a regular basis).

I sent you my 'Snape doesn't need to prove his loyalty' thread in an owl. If you understand it and don't find any major holes I'll post it. I really hope it works. It answers soooo many questions.

It's been fun!

[Jessika]

as i have said before, i believe that snape is on the 'good' side. i think he will help harry destroy voldermort without harry's knowledge. he will prove to the readers that he is good, but harry no one in the book will know. (dramatic irony)

[Awiana]

Originally Posted by HPSpec

You talk about making a wrong choice and changing it. In my opinion Snape makes the 'wrong choices' on a daily basis in regards to children, but he may be making the right decisions for the Voldemort cause.

Yes, I meant right and wrong choices in terms of being loyal to Voldemort or Dumbledore, sorry that I didn’t clarify that in my original post. I didn’t mean to imply that after Snape defected to Dumbledore he has never made any wrong choices – like you said, he does make wrong choices in regards to the students, and I refuse to believe that he’s the only one on the good side who ever makes wrong choices, in fact I would argue that even the hero of the series makes a lot of pretty stupid and bad choices.

I’m not trying to say that your theory is totally implausible or anything – I do admit that it would explain many things. I’m just trying to explain why I don’t agree with that theory at this point, no matter how many questions it answers and how much sense it makes.

What I love about Snape’s character is the contrasts: he’s a loyal Order member who’s an ex-Death Eater. He knows “the Dark Side” (sorry for the Star Wars language!) because he has been there, he knows how seductive it can be. In that way he’s very different from most of the Order members, who have never been seduced by the dark. He knows how easy it is to give in to the Dark side (again, sorry for the Star Wars terms!), he chose to be dark once, and he can’t really change everything horrible that he has done, but he has chosen to fight that darkness, and I find that admirable. I’m not trying to say that it’s more admirable than having been on the right side all along, but it requires a different kind of strength, I think, and I would love it if JKR would include that in her books.

I guess I’m going to be somewhat disappointed if it turns out that Snape has been either on Dumbledore’s or Voldemort’s side all along. I’d love to read about a character who has truly changed sides. I find the idea of Snape expressing true remorse over his Death Eater activities and being completely taken aback by the fact that Dumbledore trusts him even though he’s a Death Eater more interesting than being loyal to Dumbledore all along, but naturally that’s just my opinion.

I don’t think there’s very much canon evidence against this theory, so it’s a perfectly valid interpretation at this point, I think. But to me it’s just very significant that Snape has made an easy and horribly wrong choice when he chose to join Voldemort, but he has realised that it wasn’t what he wanted after all, that whatever Voldemort could offer him just wasn’t worth it, and has made the right but not easy choice of turning traitor to Voldemort. To me Snape being on Dumbledore’s side all along kind of undermines the message of redemption that I find fascinating and it makes Snape’s story less meaningful (again, just my opinion, of course).

I feel I’m doing such a bad job of making my point, I can only hope that you are all gifted in mind reading and understand what I’m trying to say anyway!

Originally Posted by HPSpec

Actually I was referring to my post #88 that you are all ignoring, but I can take it

I did read that post, but I didn't know how to reply to it, because I’m not sure what your answers to some of the questions are (for example, what do you think is the huge revelation about Lily?). I’m sure you have explained this in an earlier post, or that it’s something completely obvious and I’m going to feel totally stupid if I ask you to clarify.

[Bazzaice]

Got this from another Forum...sounds abit wack to me

I think Snape was there the night the potters died along with Voldy and that the 7th part of Voldys soul went into Snape's body making him the 7th Horcrux.
Maybe this is why both Voldy and Dumbledore seem to say they trust Snape so much. Each want to keep watch over the horcrux.


Snape came to Dumbledore once this happened and explained everything so that is why Dumbledore lets Snape take a position as a teacher in Hogwarts to keep him from Voldy and the other Deatheaters


Voldy has to keep an eye on the part of his soul. Thats why he keeps Snape as a "Loyal" Deatheater. Voldy might know that snape passes on info to the order 'but would not risk losing a part of his soul' so tells Snape info that does not realy help the order alot.
I dont recall much usefull info Snape gave the order come up at all in the books to help catch Voldy or say what he is up to.

Well Maybe Snape will give his life for Harry at the end. Maybe save him from the AV curse when Harry & Voldy Dual, distroying the final Horcrux (Himself) and giving Harry the chance to use the AV curse on Voldy..

I prob Know iam 110% Wrong but we are allguessing at the end of the day. Why not go for an extravagent over the top 1 like this..lol

LOL...I havent come up with anything yet myself but working on it...

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by HPSpec

And as always, thanks for the chance to try to convince you! My continued defense in response to the 'nah, Snape was a true Death Eater' stomp of my theory is that 1) this is what we have been lead to believe, and when does JKR ever resist kicking us out of our complacency? and 2) my theory explains a lot more.

The one thing your theory explains that I have a lot of trouble explaining to myself with MY theory is not actually on your list...
WHY did Snape never reveal Lupin's secret until the end of PoA?
He clearly has the feeling that Sirius tried to kill him, and that (as usual) the Marauders' charm got them off easily. He was not pleased with the handling of the incident by the authorities, I would say. (Which would definitely include Dumbledore-he made James Head Boy...)
So how did Dumbledore shut him up? While Snape was still in school, I could see him simply ordering Snape to, and would have had no real choice but to obey. But then I would have expected him to publish the info in a full-page ad in the Daily Prophet to celebrate his graduation, if you see what I mean. But if he was already working for Dumbledore, well, much as he may resent it, the whole fiasco contributes to his cover.

Examples of what it explains:
- The Huge Revelation about Lily
- Why Voldemort gave Lily a choice (really the same as above)
- Why JKR is 'stunned' by the question about Snape's redemption pattern
- What is significant about Petunia and the 'conversation overheard'
- How Petunia was forced to take Harry in PS/SS and why she keeps him in OoP after the Howler
- Why Dumbledore's trust in Snape is unshakable
- and finally, why Dumbledore does not give a reason for this trust

A lot of this stuff is explained pretty well by other theories too. Although the reason it gives Petunia to take in Harry is nice. Did Petunia just not think ahead to when Harry is an adult? Although-why not just Obliviate the woman?

If Snape loved Lily, this would be the huge revelation. Also, the way you speculate Snape tried to save Lily would work regardless of whether Snape was a true Death Eater or not. If he loved her, he would have a motive even if he had truly joined the Death Eaters. The overheard conversation would be significant because it would be one of the early clues to Harry in Book 7 about Snape and Lily.

DUmbledore's trust being unshakable is in character for him, I think, even if Snape really was a Death Eater. Snape could have initally been given a chance because Dumbledore knew him as a student and saw some redeeming traits, and Snape could then have earned that trust through their long ensuing collaboration. (The months of spying before the first fall of Voldemort, his willingness to go back in GoF, whatever spying he has done simce, and his saving of Dumbledore's life inthe summer before HBP starts.) The reason Dumbledore does not reveal the reason-if the frist part of the reason is that Snape told him the Potters were target number 1, and passed information to Dumbledore which allowed them to evade Voldemort's attacks, this is information that cannot get back to Voldemort. It would prove Snape gave infromation to the order which Voldemort did not authorize him to give.


JKR's being stunned would be because Snape does have a redemptive pattern-this was an interview after PoA, if I recall. So someone saw it coming before we even learned Snape had a dark Mark...
And to all that the bonus that it gives Harry an early 'Snape is not all his seems' kick at the beginning of book seven when Petunia finds out Dumbledore is dead. This will allow Harry to let go of his hate even if he never likes the man. That will take most of the book.
Not a bad list for one theory.

Believing that Snape was a true Death Eater just asks more questions
- When, if ever?, did he switch sides?
- Why does Dumbledore trust him?
- Would Lily really have been friends with someone so flawed they became a Death Eater?
- And the real kicker, why would he be concerned by Voldemort's targeting of the Potters?
The common answer to the last one is, 'disappointment in Lily is what led him to join the Death Eaters'. But if so, what would cause the change of heart? Finding out she is pregnant should just be another blow to his bruised sensibilities.

We know when and why Snape switched sides, if indeed he did. It was when he learned how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy. It was the reason for his return according to Dumbledore, who should know. (It could be a fake reason, and Snape never really returned-but your theory also has this weakness. I don't think anyone is in a position to PROVE Snape's loyalties at this stage of the game.) The reason Dumbledore trusts him is that he believes the reality of Snape's remorse. Also, we know from Fudge (PoA) that one of Dumbledore's spies warned him about the danger to the Potters. Try to imagine a conversation in which Snape tries to defect back to Dumbledore's side because of his remorse, WITHOUT mentioning the danger to the Potters. Hard to do, no? SO, Snape seemed remorseful, AND brought useful information Voldemort did not want spread about, which turned out to be true.

I argue that all of you that want to believe Snape is evil wish to take the 'easy way'. It is easier to believe someone is as horrible as they seem rather than dig for the few redeeming traits that each and every one of us has. Snape is unpleasant to the extreme, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right goals.

Not aimed at me. Snape, evil?

[ColourChangeInk]

Thanks for the kind words, HPSpec.

J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript, The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999:
Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
A. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin… I promise you whoever asked that question, can I just say I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. That's all I'm going to say.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I do think there is a redemption story going on with Snape, but it is back-story. He needs redemption in the sense that, what, 17-8 years ago now, he was a Death Eater, and told Voldemort the part of he Prophecy he heard, giving Voldemort as reason to kill Harry and his parents. He won't completely have closure on his evil past until Voldemort and his followers are no longer in a position to harm Harry and others.

Totally agree, zgirnius! There are perhaps two different senses in which we can speak of a ‘redemptive pattern’ to Snape. Firstly, Snape has to be ‘redeemed’ in our eyes, within the context of the plot, when it is revealed that he is still on Harry’s side. This has already happened in PS/SS and to a lesser extent in GOF and will (I think) happen again in Book 7. Secondly, he has to 'redeem himself' as a character that committed a terrible betrayal (even if he didn’t realise whom he was betraying), which has scarred his whole life. Without wanting to excuse Snape’s behaviour, I believe that his personality has been warped by a deep sense of guilt. Snape believes that he is a deeply horrible person and so consequently acts like one to his students, even while he is risking his neck for the Order. I hate the way he has treated Harry, Neville and Hermione, but I hope he finds peace and this will not happen until he has atoned for his past.

For all this to play out as it should, I think it’s very important that Snape was once a Death Eater (sorry!) To me, ‘the greatest regret of his life’ has to be more than a misunderstanding. And I don’t want to find flaws in the Snape/Trelawney/Dumbledore timing because this seems to point towards: ‘Dark Dumbledore manipulating events to bring about Voldemort’s downfall’, as the most plausible explanation, which would be an ingenious idea in another series, but seems profoundly non-HP. (I could be wrong, but I am really hoping JKR will demystify this one!) I still cling to Dumbledore’s mantra in PS/S: ‘The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer your questions, unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie.’ Whatever the circumstances, I just can’t see Dumbledore deceiving Harry about something this important to him. For what it’s worth, I think that Snape had an unrequited passion for Lily, which became confused with his hatred for James and Sirius, thus leaving him vulnerable to the manipulation of Lucius Malfoy, who recruited him as a Death Eater. Lily’s feelings probably changed from pity to horror, if she sensed that Snape had a jealous fixation with her. But once Snape learned that Lily’s family was a target, he discovered that he did love her selflessly, leading to his defection. (Btw, I agree that Voldemort might well have come to suspect Snape at some point, but I disagree that Snape would necessarily have been killed outright. Isn’t it possible that Voldemort feels confident enough to toy with Snape in order to manipulate him, employ his talents and neutralise him as a potential rival, always on the understanding that 'he will be killed' eventually?)

I attempted a chronology, in another thread:

- Voldemort gives Snape the task of becoming an agent for the Death Eaters. He is sent to Dumbledore to apply for the position of DADA teacher. This attempt fails when he is thrown from the Hog’s Head, but he does hear the first half of Trelawney’s Prophecy.
- Snape reports the Prophecy to Voldemort. (‘Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply.’)
- Wormtail reports the birth of Harry Potter at the prophetic time. ('YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!’)
- Voldemort then determines to kill the Potters, perhaps offering Snape, Lily, as a way of securing his loyalty. (It would be like Voldemort to mistake the nature of love.) Snape realises for the first time what kind of psychopath he is dealing with. (‘You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned.’)
- Snape offers to make another attempt at becoming a secret agent. Voldemort agrees and sends him back to Dumbledore at Hogwarts. ('You know, I presume, that it was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post?') This time, however, Snape truly defects and tells Dumbledore that the Potters are in danger. (‘Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once.’) He returns to Voldemort as a double agent. ('Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk.')
- (?) Something happens during this year to convince Voldemort that Snape might not as loyal as he appears. Is this something to do with Lily … or Regulus Black? Is he suspicious of Snape’s eagerness to return to Dumbledore? Might Voldemort just suspects that Snape is automatically a threat since he knows there is a Prophecy that Voldemort is able to be defeated? Snape is not told that Pettigrew is the spy, although according to Sirius this was common knowledge in Azkaban. (Maybe Snape is even fed false information that Sirius is the spy.)
- Snape attempts to warn the Potters about Sirius. ('You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black –') Dumbledore offers to be the Potter’s Secret Keeper himself. James & Lily choose Sirius as Secret Keeper, but then switch at the last moment to Pettigrew.
- Pettigrew betrays the Potters' whereabouts to the Dark Lord. Voldemort turns up at Godric’s Hollow and kills James Potter. He offers Lily the chance to live, but she refuses to stop shielding her son. He then kills her, (double-crossing Snape) and attempts to kill Harry.

Following his defection, Dumbledore alone has shown faith in Snape, which is one reason why I really dislike the idea of their bond consisting of an Unbreakable Vow. We know that trust is a major issue for Dumbledore and that the ability to trust people is one of the main differences between him and Voldemort: the Dark Lord keeps people alive whom he hopes to utilise, faithful or not, but Dumbledore wants their hearts and minds, freely given. (For the same reason, I reject the idea that if Snape murdered Dumbledore in order to save his own neck (the Gospel of Slytherin according to Phineas Nigellus) then this is marginally better than being an ardent supporter of You-Know-Who … the self-serving Snape would be acceptable to Voldemort, but not to Dumbledore. The latter emphasised repeatedly that his trust in Snape was an absolute commitment, not a calculated gamble to be redeemed at some future date. If Snape has violated this trust, even in thought, then it is a fundamental betrayal and a catastrophic blow to Dumbledore’s credibility and his values.)

I much prefer the idea that Fawkes will be an indicator of Snape’s true allegiance. Dumbledore’s Phoenix is the embodiment of loyalty, a powerful creature that will not be hoodwinked, but uses precisely the same love magic that Dumbledore so values. And Phoenix tears have healing powers – symbolic of redemption. I think Snape is going to need Fawkes to survive as well. At the end of HBP, he is alone and in a terrible state:

‘Kill me, then’ panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. ‘Kill me like you killed him, you coward –‘
‘DON’T –‘ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ‘- CALL ME COWARD!’

The simile is extraordinary in that it invites our sympathy for Snape – a man whom Dumbledore’s murder has just cast in darkest hue. In forcing himself to do what he has done, Snape has shown extraordinary courage, so that being taunted by Harry, on whose behalf he has been acting the whole time, must be almost unbearable. If we do see him collapsing in an alleyway at the beginning of Book 7, wounded in body and soul (having been attacked by Buckbeak), then Fawkes’s appearance will be a welcome reassurance, not merely that Snape is still loyal, but that Dumbledore has not abandoned him.

Originally Posted by taupimu

As far as the plot goes, I think we will be in the dark for most of the seventh book as to what Snape is up to. But at least in HBP, JKR allowed us to learn from Snape things that Harry didn't know. It might be nice if that continued in to the next book. That would give us the story from two perspectives. I do not necessarily believe we will know Snape's loyalties because of that.

It sure didn't help to decide about Snape because we were at Spinner's End.

Very true! But Snape was an eponymous (anti)-hero of HBP, so we were meant to spend the entire book worrying about his loyalties. In Book 7, much as I hate to say it, Snape’s redemption will be only one of a number of highly important subplots in need of resolution. Granted, he’s vital to Voldemort's defeat, but as I feel there are a lot of clues evident on a (second) reading of HBP, I wouldn’t be too fussed if the basic question of Snape’s loyalties should be answered (for us) at the beginning of Book 7. Personally, I’m more interested in the outcome of Snape’s relationships with Harry, Malfoy and Voldemort. And I agree with you about Lupin, Ashwinder! (Apart from the fact that he seems to have made the best attempt to understand Snape of anyone in the Order - except Dumbledore - there are strong parallels between the pair. Both were the victims of Sirius's unfortunate Prank - the consequences for Lupin, if anything happened, would have been terrible - perhaps one reason why Snape was persuaded to keep quiet. Both seem to have sought Dumbledore's approbation. And both have been mentioned in relation to Lily. JKR told us that Lupin was 'very fond' of her. Also, I imagine that Snape and Lupin share similar regrets: missing Wormtail as the spy and failing to persuade Sirius to stay home in OOtP, for example. Lupin definitely regrets the way the Marauders treated Snape and I suspect that Snape also regrets costing Lupin his job at the end of POA, especially when Snape must bear some of the responsibility for Wormtail’s second escape.)

So, to return to the original question, how will Snape demonstrate his loyalty to Harry? Well, I doubt we’ll see them together until near the end... I used to favour a big denouncement scene between Snape and Harry, at wand-tip(!), with some startling new information being revealed, but I am now coming round to the view that Dumbledore will have found some way of communicating the essential fact of Snape’s innocence to Harry. So instead I envisage a scene in which Voldemort unmasks Snape and leaves him for dead, with Harry (and Lupin?) arriving too late to save him, but in time to learn some crucial information from Snape. (In these circumstances, Harry would genuinely regret Snape's death and attempt to offer him absolution. Snape would be content to die, if he could tell Harry the location of the last Horcrux before expiring.) Like NoNEWTS, I could see Snape killing Nagini and destroying the Horcrux, only to be fatally wounded himself. Apart from the morbid fact that this would provide an appropriately lingering demise, it would also solve the (dramatic) problem of Harry having to kill another snake of Voldemort’s and we were told that Arthur Weasley had a very lucky escape…

Apologies for the long post!

[MrsMollywobbles]

I hadn't thought of this when I posted earlier a few pages back. It just came to me in discussion related to Hagrid, but what if Hagrid was in on the plan (whether it was to really kill Dumbledore because he was already dying of something else or to fake his death to get Snape in deeper with Voldemort) as Dumbledore and Snape were working it out, then because Dumbledore knows Hagrid is sometimes loose lipped in spite of his best intentions, he placed a memory charm on Hagrid so that all Hagrid actually "remembers" is an argument between Dumbledore and Snape (possibly a "staged" argument so it WILL be repeated to the trio for an additional "clue" that Snape might be evil...to make the killing curse more believable) and the instructions Dumbledore gave him for how to handle his body after the fall from the tower. Having the "real" memory concealed in Hagrid might serve as the proof Harry needs to accept that Snape is on the Order's side when the proper time comes for him to know that...he could witness the real plan at some point in the pensieve.

[DJR]

Originally Posted by HPSpec

Without a doubt we will all be completely wrong, but we love speculating!

And as always, thanks for the chance to try to convince you! My continued defense in response to the 'nah, Snape was a true Death Eater' stomp of my theory is that 1) this is what we have been lead to believe, and when does JKR ever resist kicking us out of our complacency? and 2) my theory explains a lot more.
Examples of what it explains:
- The Huge Revelation about Lily
- Why Voldemort gave Lily a choice (really the same as above)
- Why JKR is 'stunned' by the question about Snape's redemption pattern
- What is significant about Petunia and the 'conversation overheard'
- How Petunia was forced to take Harry in PS/SS and why she keeps him in OoP after the Howler
- Why Dumbledore's trust in Snape is unshakable
- and finally, why Dumbledore does not give a reason for this trust
And to all that the bonus that it gives Harry an early 'Snape is not all his seems' kick at the beginning of book seven when Petunia finds out Dumbledore is dead. This will allow Harry to let go of his hate even if he never likes the man. That will take most of the book.
Not a bad list for one theory.

Believing that Snape was a true Death Eater just asks more questions
- When, if ever?, did he switch sides?
- Why does Dumbledore trust him?
- Would Lily really have been friends with someone so flawed they became a Death Eater?
- And the real kicker, why would he be concerned by Voldemort's targeting of the Potters?
The common answer to the last one is, 'disappointment in Lily is what led him to join the Death Eaters'. But if so, what would cause the change of heart? Finding out she is pregnant should just be another blow to his bruised sensibilities.

I argue that all of you that want to believe Snape is evil wish to take the 'easy way'. It is easier to believe someone is as horrible as they seem rather than dig for the few redeeming traits that each and every one of us has. Snape is unpleasant to the extreme, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right goals.

Fun, fun, fun! Fire away!

I agree...but what if Dumbledore in his letters to Petunia told her what might happen and she (Petunia) will have to explain the reason behind Snape to Harry?

Please post your thoughts.

[JHHollander]

Snape will prove his loyalty in the same way that he proved it to Dumbledore in the first place: he will help recreat the charmed potion that saved Baby Harry. Baby Harry was saved by a combination, not only of the powerful magic of Lily sacrificing her life, but also of a unique potion.

Here's some of the evidence.

Lily’s greatest talent was in potions. When Voldemort tried to Avada Kedavra Baby Harry, it now appears likely that Harry’s veins were filled with something a little stronger than mother’s milk. According to Ollivander’s testimony, Lily’s swishy, willow wand was “nice…for charm work.” It is most probable, then, that Baby Harry was protected by a charmed potion.

Snape had to do something, after inadvertently betraying the Potters to Voldemort by reporting Sybil Trelawney's prophecy. He was the spy who told Dumbledore the Potters were in danger, but that would not be enough to gain the headmaster's implicit trust for sixteen years. Since Snape was even greater than Lily in potions, his help in creating a protection brew is probably what gained him Dumbledore's trust.

When Dumbledore insists on shedding his own blood for the spell at the Cave, he says: “Your blood is more valuable than mine.” This means not only that Harry is the younger generation who is prophesied to be the Chosen One, but specifically that his blood still contains the secret of Lily’s charm. It is the same principle as when Harry asks of a magically concealed passage: “How did you know it was there?” (HBP, p.563), and Dumbledore responds: “Magic always leaves traces.” In OOP, Dumbledore teaches Harry of the power of the ancient magic of a mother’s love who dies to save her son: “She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day.” This is clearly not metaphorical.

The fact that Lily’s charm remains in Harry’s body to this day is spelled out as early as Sorcerer’s Stone. At the end of the book, Dumbledore explains to Harry why Quirrell couldn’t grab Harry without excruciating pain: “Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn’t realize that love as powerful as your mother’s for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign…to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell…could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good.”

Voldemort recognizes that there is magical power in Harry’ blood. At the beginning of Goblet of Fire, Wormtail thinks that any white wizard would do to reincarnate Voldemort. Voldemort sneers, because even if there’s some truth to this, the blood of Harry Potter has power that nobody else’s blood has: “I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter’s blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago…for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too….” At first, this would seem to cancel the above suggestions that the potion lingering in Harry’s blood will help him in the final battle with Voldemort. All that the Dark Lord had to do was include Harry’s blood in his resurrected body and he could cancel the effect. He even seems to prove this by clobbering Harry in GOF with no pain to himself. But Voldemort does not completely understand this magic.

Later in GOF, Harry reports to Dumbledore: “He said my blood would make him stronger than if he used someone else’s…He said the protection my – my mother left in me – he’d have it too. And he was right – he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.”
‘For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes.’

Harry isn’t imagining things . Harry’s blood still contains a power that Voldemort knows not, something deeper, less superficial than the burning through the skin that had defeated Quirrell. The paradox is that mixing Harry’s blood with Voldemort makes him invulnerable to touching Harry, but more vulnerable in some as yet unspecified way. Harry won’t be able to defeat Voldemort, until he figures it out. The most obvious possibility is that by solving the superficial problem of skin-on-skin, Voldemort becomes blood-of-Harry’s-blood, so that with the addition of a little booster potion to Harry’s blood, the Dark Lord can’t destroy Harry without destroying himself.

More details on this and the other principal backstory and spoiler issues can be found in my essay "Harry Potter and the Ultimate Spoiler," which can be downloaded at www.harrypotterspoiler.com.

[GinnyRules]

Snape will prove his loyalty by killing yet another one of the most important people in Harry's life.

Come on. How can anyone still be clinging to the idea that he's on the good side after all those years of being cruel to Harry, associating with Death Eaters, Selling out Harry's parents, and finally killing Dumbledore? He's obviously done enough already, what more proof does anyone need. He's evil an that's that.

[Zina_x0]

Originally Posted by JHHollander

Snape will prove his loyalty in the same way that he proved it to Dumbledore in the first place: he will help recreat the charmed potion that saved Baby Harry. Baby Harry was saved by a combination, not only of the powerful magic of Lily sacrificing her life, but also of a unique potion.

Here's some of the evidence.

Lily’s greatest talent was in potions. When Voldemort tried to Avada Kedavra Baby Harry, it now appears likely that Harry’s veins were filled with something a little stronger than mother’s milk. According to Ollivander’s testimony, Lily’s swishy, willow wand was “nice…for charm work.” It is most probable, then, that Baby Harry was protected by a charmed potion.

Snape had to do something, after inadvertently betraying the Potters to Voldemort by reporting Sybil Trelawney's prophecy. He was the spy who told Dumbledore the Potters were in danger, but that would not be enough to gain the headmaster's implicit trust for sixteen years. Since Snape was even greater than Lily in potions, his help in creating a protection brew is probably what gained him Dumbledore's trust.

I don't see how a potion can be charmed. A potion is made and it has it's own powers when drunk. You can't charm it to have it do something else. And I really really really doubt James would allow Snape to help Lily make a potion. It was her love, and only her love, that saved Harry. Dumbledore would have hinted at it if it was something else, besides just Lily's blood. Plus, if it is true about Snape, then he helped save baby Harry's life, which doesn't make sense because in Harry's First Year, Snape saved him because James saved Snape when they were in school together.

[Ashwinder]

Posted by GinnyRules
Come on. How can anyone still be clinging to the idea that he's on the good side after all those years of being cruel to Harry, associating with Death Eaters, Selling out Harry's parents, and finally killing Dumbledore? He's obviously done enough already, what more proof does anyone need. He's evil an that's that.

Wel, your sig tops it all, doesn't it?
Very nice reaction, it contributes a lot to the thread.

*sarcasm mode off*

[GinnyRules]

Originally Posted by Ashwinder

Wel, your sig tops it all, doesn't it?
Very nice reaction, it contributes a lot to the thread.

*sarcasm mode off*

I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else, it wasn't my intention *sarcasm mode off, seriously*. It's just that I find it so hard to believe he could be good. i'm just presenting arguments for the opposition.

Anywayws, considering he is good (cough, cough). He could probably redeem himself by saving someone like Harry or making a long explanation of every evil thing he's ever done to Harry.

P.S: My sig is a joke (sort of, lol).

[scarhead92]

Yea I agree with you kingbobs and anyone else who wrote that Dumbledore left something to show Snape is innocent.

[m_wizard]

I think if Snape is playing this rool with agreement with Dumbledore than he will have no problem but if he is realy evil and he killed him then he has no reason zo prove that.

[kingbobs]

Wow thanks for the feedback everybody. I've gotten some great insight into possibilities that I had never thought of before. I still believe that Snape is good, but my reasons are better now after reading this and a few other threads.

[CUt_up_angel]

I think that Snape is bad

[emmylala2003]

The only way people will understand that Snape was truly always on the right side is if he proves it with his actions in Book 7. Either way though, people in the Order, including Harry will find it hard to forgive him for all the grief he has caused and not to mention for killing Dumbledore (this is of course if you subscribe to the theory that Snape killed Dumbledore on DD's orders).

Some have been using a quote from Jo to prove or disprove Snape's loyalty. The quote is from The Connection (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999 interview. I got it from quick-quote-quill.org

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

I think this proves that Snape will end up on the right side since at the time of the interview the only Book that had been published was SS and the only information we knew about Snape was that he was a very mean teacher who didn't care for Harry very much. We knew nothing of his Death Eater days at this point nor that Dumbledore trusted him and that he was now working with the Order as a spy. I think that's why Jo was stunned that someone mentioned something about Snape redeeming himself because she knew what Snape would end up doing in Book 6 and how he would prove himself in Book 7.

[mwbashful18]

Amidst all the evidence that is in the books that says Snape is evil, here's the real rub everyone should know and only care about, I think: when Rowling was asked if Snape is evil, she said she couldn't answer that because it would ruin the 7th book and the events that unfold between he and Harry.

Oh gee, Snape sounds like he's all-out evil. Sure. Rowling can't even make a definite statement to that effect! When Sirius died, she made statements that he was dead and she was so sad and couldn't help but cry. When Pettigrew arrived, she was quick to say that he was a real rat. When Umbridge arrived, she was quick to say that she was more sadistic than Snape. But has she said one word about Snape? Yes! She has! She's said that he is a horrible person. Wow. And so is James and Sirius, in their own way. According to Rowling, Snape is good, in an indirect way.

Now, the matter of proving his innocence to Harry and company, that's a whole other story! My money is on Patroni, boggarts, or the Pensieve containing Dumbledore's memory of Snape confession.