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The Veil: What do you think its like?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 28th, 2005, 4:57 pm
Chabichou  Female.gif Chabichou is offline
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I believe the veil is a direct gateway to the world of the dead. The voices heard behind the veil are not only those of people who've been through the veil but everyone else who's dead too.

I believe the veil can be used to communicate to the dead. I think in the seventh book harry will be guided by his dead parents sirius and dumbledore through the veil.


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  #22  
Old December 6th, 2005, 3:47 am
eye_screeeam  Male.gif eye_screeeam is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Two things bug me about this whole thing. One, is the room itself. Why does it have stadium seating? Someone suggested that unspeakables were hoping to communicate with the dead. perhaps its the magical equivalent of the electric chair, killing people without tearing your soul apart, authorized violence.
second thing, why do people know about this veil? is it because people know it exists but hvae no idea what it is?
i know i said 2questions, but ill ask a third, how did it get there? seems like an ancient ruin or something, did they move it to a more secure premise? in my imagination, it reminded me of stargate the tvshow/movie (then again I used to pronounce hermione "hermy-own" before she corrected krum in GOF)


  #23  
Old December 6th, 2005, 4:13 am
AlasEarWax  Female.gif AlasEarWax is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman

I think we may see Sirius in Book 7 if Harry takes a (properly protected) trip there. He may be Harry's guide--which may be why Jo said he "had to die." The Patronus idea is interesting too.
I really want to elaborate somehow on this Patronus thing. It seemed like such a good idea at the time, sending something really pure and good as the only thing that can penetrate through something so dark and uncertain as the veil. But I can't figure out how it would work exactly. I think I need to know more about how the Order communicates with Patronuses. It would be really weird if Sirius or Harry's parents actually sent a readable message back with a Patronus, but stranger things have happened. Can anyone offer an idea?

Another idea: Phoenixes are practically immortal and highly magical, right? Do you think Fawkes would be able to fly in and out of the veil unscathed?


  #24  
Old December 6th, 2005, 4:41 am
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Re: Questions about the Veil

The Druids, a culture of Celts that populated Ireland, England and Northern Europe in the first millennium, marked the last day of their calendar year by celebrating Samhain. It was considered a "nonexistent" day in the sense that the Druids believed that the veil between the afterlife and Earth was lifted by the gods, who allowed spirits access to the material world on Samhain night. The spirits of all who had died in the preceding year were said to wander the streets on that night, creating a kind of chaos as the two worlds collided. This celebration is now called Halloween. We know JKR has a lot of things happen on Halloween. I hope in book 7 that Harry and therefore we are in the room with the veil on Halloween in book 7. I have a feeling it could be very interesting.

If you want to read more http://www.funny-ecards.com/info/halloween.html is a good link.


  #25  
Old December 6th, 2005, 4:45 am
jenny07  Female.gif jenny07 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Phoenixes are not immortal. According to Fantastic Beast and Where to Find Them, the phoenix "lives to an immense age" which isn't the same as being immortal. It is an interesting thought about sending a patronus through the veil however.
To Shewoman-I always assumed the reason Sirius had to die was for the same reason Dumbledore need to-because Harry must fight Voldemort alone, with no one protecting him.
But perhaps he will be of some assistance to Harry from beyond the veil.


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  #26  
Old December 6th, 2005, 4:49 am
Weasel_king7  Female.gif Weasel_king7 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

The veil is one of those mysteries that i just dont understand and im sure many people dont also!!!! i dunno what you all think, but it seem to me that OotP has been kinda forgotten in the HBP.... what i mean is that there was sooo many mysteries in OotP especially to do with the department of mysteries, but not only were questions not answerd, but they wernt even contemplated or thought about or even got a mention.... there is something seriously UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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  #27  
Old December 6th, 2005, 4:49 am
lexlove1  Female.gif lexlove1 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Well, we know that it was in the middle of the death chamber, so we can only come to the conclusion that that is where convicted wizards were sentenced to death. But my question is, what if it wasn't a true death sentence, but rather a type of place that you were neither here or there?


  #28  
Old December 7th, 2005, 3:30 am
tamuchi  Undisclosed.gif tamuchi is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paintball
The Druids, a culture of Celts that populated Ireland, England and Northern Europe in the first millennium, marked the last day of their calendar year by celebrating Samhain. It was considered a "nonexistent" day in the sense that the Druids believed that the veil between the afterlife and Earth was lifted by the gods, who allowed spirits access to the material world on Samhain night. The spirits of all who had died in the preceding year were said to wander the streets on that night, creating a kind of chaos as the two worlds collided. This celebration is now called Halloween. We know JKR has a lot of things happen on Halloween. I hope in book 7 that Harry and therefore we are in the room with the veil on Halloween in book 7. I have a feeling it could be very interesting.
This information is very interesting; especially, if this is what JKR has based her veil on. If so, wouldn't you think that maybe the veil is lifted once a year?

I have wondered why JKR hasn't explained the veil, and in not doing so, I assume it will play some part in the final book (and mark the return of Sirius). As I've written in another thread, I need closure with Sirius's death and going "beyond the veil" just leaves me with lots of questions and no closure!

It is interesting that some people can hear voices through the veil. And, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't hearing the voices draw people to the veil? i.e., does hearing the voices tempt the listener to go beyond the veil themself? If so, are the voices true? Or just a way to get people to go beyond?

Sorry for only positing more questions and not answering anything. It's kinda hard for me to assume anything about the veil since so little has been written about it.


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  #29  
Old December 7th, 2005, 4:54 am
Paintball  Male.gif Paintball is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamuchi
This information is very interesting; especially, if this is what JKR has based her veil on. If so, wouldn't you think that maybe the veil is lifted once a year?

I have wondered why JKR hasn't explained the veil, and in not doing so, I assume it will play some part in the final book (and mark the return of Sirius). As I've written in another thread, I need closure with Sirius's death and going "beyond the veil" just leaves me with lots of questions and no closure!

It is interesting that some people can hear voices through the veil. And, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't hearing the voices draw people to the veil? i.e., does hearing the voices tempt the listener to go beyond the veil themself? If so, are the voices true? Or just a way to get people to go beyond?

Sorry for only positing more questions and not answering anything. It's kinda hard for me to assume anything about the veil since so little has been written about it.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that the veil is clearly the gateway to the after life. I don't know if it will ever be lifted to let the spirits out or Harry in and then back out again, but I would be willing to bet that we will see the veil again.


  #30  
Old December 7th, 2005, 5:26 am
Stickz90210  Male.gif Stickz90210 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanfictionfreak
I find it quit mysterious, and no matter what anyone says i really dont think that when sirius went through it he died. I think he just went somewhere. I just have no idea where whatsoever.
uhhh.... i dunno he might not have died right away but he could have lost his wand or something and then starved or died of dehydration or no air or something sirius was my favorite charactar but i think hes gone

otherwise im not too sure about the veil it could lead to another demension as someone said the dead zone???

i think that it is like the thestrals as the others didnt hear the voices but harry did and i think luna but i dont remember. it could be a way to contact the dead but the ministry still hasnt worked out all the problems like maybe you can go in and speak to the dead but not come out or something... otherwise a lot of people who have lost loved ones might ask people who witnessed the death to be the middle man in a living to dead conversation


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  #31  
Old December 7th, 2005, 3:32 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I think the veil is a one-way trip to the land of the dead, and if Sirius hadn't been hit in the chest with whatever he'd been hit with, he would have been one of those living people who goes through and can't come back... but I also think that those who have already died can see through the veil, or hear, possibly. Of course, I wonder what spell Bellatrix had thrown at him, now, and whether it was lethal...

That Harry and Luna should both have such similar experiences, and that they both are also able to see the thestrals (I don't think JKR established them in this book by accident) might underscore the connection. Additionally, the barrier between life and death was often seen historically as a veil... discussed ad nauseum in other threads; it's a familiar symbol, and a fitting literal representation to be studied in the Department of Mysterties.

A very old tombstone at an Ohio cemetery had the following inscription: "Pass a few swiftly fleeting years/ and you who now in body live/ must quit, like me, this veil of tears/ your righteous sentence to receive." When I read the descrition of the veil in book 5, I couldn't help but wonder at the similarity.


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  #32  
Old December 7th, 2005, 6:25 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexlove1
Well, we know that it was in the middle of the death chamber, so we can only come to the conclusion that that is where convicted wizards were sentenced to death. But my question is, what if it wasn't a true death sentence, but rather a type of place that you were neither here or there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eye_screeeam
. Why does it have stadium seating? Someone suggested that unspeakables were hoping to communicate with the dead. perhaps its the magical equivalent of the electric chair, killing people without tearing your soul apart, authorized violence.
That does not appear to be the case according to JKR (see the second question, I only included the first because it was there and relates to the veil)
Quote:
MA: Our third winner question is from Monique Padelis, who’s 15, of Surrey. How and when was the veil created?

JKR: The veil's been there as long as the Ministry of Magic has been there, and the Ministry of Magic has been there, not as long as Hogwarts, but a long time. We’re talking hundreds of years. It's not particularly important to know exactly when, but centuries, definitely.

MA: Was it used as an execution chamber or just studying?

JKR: No, it's just studying. The Department of Mysteries is all about studying. They study the mind, the universe, death…
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimsPensieve
I think the veil is a one-way trip to the land of the dead, and if Sirius hadn't been hit in the chest with whatever he'd been hit with, he would have been one of those living people who goes through and can't come back... but I also think that those who have already died can see through the veil, or hear, possibly. Of course, I wonder what spell Bellatrix had thrown at him, now, and whether it was lethal...
I think that it is likely that he was hit with the stunning spell (stupify), although I suppose one cannot be absolutely sure of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OotP American hardback pp. 805 and 806
Only one couple were still battling, apparenlty unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.
The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.
The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.
<snip>
It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hangin from the arch...
And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place.
The doubt is of course that she did not describe the color of the jet of light that hits Sirius. I personally think that given the fact that she ahd missed, she was likely to use the same spell again (and therfore perhaps JKR felt no need to further describe the jet color) and the fact tht Sirius has any expression on his face seems to me makes it likely that he was alive before he fell into the veil (although I think once he did, he died). Although I suppose either way, to me the end result is the same that he died, whether it was from Bellatrix's spell or because he fell through the veil.


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  #33  
Old December 7th, 2005, 8:19 pm
manniem  Female.gif manniem is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I would describe it best as a portal. A portal to the afterlife, and you never come back. It's hard to explain it.


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  #34  
Old December 8th, 2005, 12:05 am
Paintball  Male.gif Paintball is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by manniem
I would describe it best as a portal. A portal to the afterlife, and you never come back. It's hard to explain it.
I think it is possible that on Halloween, JKR might have the barrier lifted for 1 day because of the Druids' beliefs set out in my post above. It would be a treat and fun to read if she does.


  #35  
Old December 8th, 2005, 12:47 am
weluvtham00n  Female.gif weluvtham00n is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by eye_screeeam
Why does it have stadium seating?
Very good point. Why DOES it have stadium seating! I think that is disgusting really, but all countries and cultures have done something just as horrifying.

About the veil itself, I don't think it is a place - I dont think you can call it the "afterlife" or anything, because it simply is nothing. There is nothing after death. But my view here relates strongly to my general views on death, but also because the veil is...nothing. You can see through it, you can walk around it, you can be enchanted by it.

The enchantment is important - you are drawn to it, you are made to believe there is someone there. Why would they enchant you if there really was someone there? There is no one there, because "there" does not exist. People who have gone into the veil are not people like Nearly Headless Nick who would have chosen to come back, they are not ghosts... so I don't know what you would call them, but I prefer to stick with nothing.

Just my opinion though, but I wouldn't like to call it a portal and I hope that Harry doesnt have to do anything stupid like enter it in book7 (I don't think he could do that anyway but JK Rowling has a wild imagination evidently!)


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  #36  
Old December 8th, 2005, 12:49 am
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Yeah it might be a "gate way to the after life" or it could just be a veil that makes noise, either way, I don't think it'll play a big role it the 7th book. If JKR was planning to use it, she would have mentioned it in HBP, but she didn't.


  #37  
Old December 11th, 2005, 7:31 am
Brand0nATL Brand0nATL is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I think it's difficult to predict whether or not the veil will come back into play in Book 7, but it would definitely seem a shame if we didn't get at least a bit more closure on what happened to Sirius. Another thing, in that interview that Mugglenet/Leaky did w/ JKR, I was very excited when i got to the point where they mentioned the veil...and yet, JKR didn't really answer the question fully. She never answered how it was created. And she never elaborated on it at al other than to say it was for studying. I also ca'nt believe that the interviewers (who did ask a ton of EXCELLENT questions) didin't prob her on this one a little bit...at least to the point where she would either answer or give her famous "no comment."

But the fact that she didn't declare it insifignant (which she did for some things, to stop people from wasting their time) and the fact that she didn't elaborate on it makes me at least suspicious that she might bring it back into play in Book 7.

I know that when I finished OOTP, this was easily the MOSt annoying thing I had lingering in my mind. And it did shock me how everyone in the Order seemed to take it as gospel that Sirius was dead, and wouldn't say anything else. That drove me nuts! Especially with the whole Luna connection...the fact that they see and hearthe same things....hell, it even seemed like Lunda had some sort of insight into it...but she also didn't elaborate.

And lastly, if it's there for "stufy", that still doesn't tell us if the Ministry created a "death portal" or if they found it and have been trying to figure it out....if so, musta sucked for the guy who tested it first:

"OK Fred, step through and tell us what you see...........

.........Fred?


.............Fred???


...................................Fred?????


DAMN!

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  #38  
Old December 11th, 2005, 10:08 pm
AlasEarWax  Female.gif AlasEarWax is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand0nATL

And lastly, if it's there for "stufy", that still doesn't tell us if the Ministry created a "death portal" or if they found it and have been trying to figure it out....if so, musta sucked for the guy who tested it first:

"OK Fred, step through and tell us what you see...........

.........Fred?


.............Fred???


...................................Fred?????


DAMN!

Right! Who wants to go next?"

Hahaha that was funny. I really don't think the ministry created it . I think they may have obtained it and not known where it came from. It would take away from the mystery somehow if there was some kind of formula for creating a veil like this. Although there's a thread around here somewhere suggesting that the veil itself was a Lethifold. (A creature that looks like a black cloak that goes around eating people). Maybe if you catch a Lethifold you can turn it into a death veil?

But I really don't like that reasoning because it makes the veil out to be something that thinks for itself, and I really don't think it has a mind anything like that. If we learn any more about the veil, I hope it is: Can we communicate with people in there? or What does it look like in there? I don't need to know the history of how it was made, I'm pretty satisfied with that part remaining mysterious.


  #39  
Old December 12th, 2005, 1:21 am
Brand0nATL Brand0nATL is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlasEarWax
Hahaha that was funny.
Thanks...I figure amidst all the debating and arguing, a little humor can't hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlasEarWax
But I really don't like that reasoning because it makes the veil out to be something that thinks for itself, and I really don't think it has a mind anything like that. If we learn any more about the veil, I hope it is: Can we communicate with people in there? or What does it look like in there? I don't need to know the history of how it was made, I'm pretty satisfied with that part remaining mysterious.
I agree...I'm not too concerned with where it came myself, come to think of it. It's more thn JKR avoided elaborating on that when the question was asked of her. I'm much more interested in, as you mentioned, how it works and what it's like "in" there...and if there is any communication.

With the stadium seating and all, it makes me think that maybe they might be able to have some sort of magical cerimony in there akin to a sayance(sp?) where a number of skilled wizards attempt to communicate with the dead or something?

I think it's funny that we all (myself very much included) accept EVERYTHING else in the DOM as a mystery that we don't really need to know anything else about. But because the veil killed a character that many of us loved (again, myself included), we want to understand it and unravel it.


  #40  
Old December 12th, 2005, 4:49 am
bravesfan150  Male.gif bravesfan150 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Te_Amorangi_15
Or .... It could lead to Lord Voldemort's lair ...
uhhh then why would it be at the ministry?


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