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The Veil: What do you think its like?



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 12th, 2005, 4:05 am
schoonsHP  Male.gif schoonsHP is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I read it was a Lethifold. Could it be something like a amphitheatre for executions like muggles have gas chambers?
Other than that I have no idea...or care really.


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  #42  
Old December 12th, 2005, 5:03 am
_falloutgurl_  Female.gif _falloutgurl_ is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand0nATL
I think it's difficult to predict whether or not the veil will come back into play in Book 7, but it would definitely seem a shame if we didn't get at least a bit more closure on what happened to Sirius. Another thing, in that interview that Mugglenet/Leaky did w/ JKR, I was very excited when i got to the point where they mentioned the veil...and yet, JKR didn't really answer the question fully. She never answered how it was created. And she never elaborated on it at al other than to say it was for studying. I also ca'nt believe that the interviewers (who did ask a ton of EXCELLENT questions) didin't prob her on this one a little bit...at least to the point where she would either answer or give her famous "no comment."

But the fact that she didn't declare it insifignant (which she did for some things, to stop people from wasting their time) and the fact that she didn't elaborate on it makes me at least suspicious that she might bring it back into play in Book 7.

I know that when I finished OOTP, this was easily the MOSt annoying thing I had lingering in my mind. And it did shock me how everyone in the Order seemed to take it as gospel that Sirius was dead, and wouldn't say anything else. That drove me nuts! Especially with the whole Luna connection...the fact that they see and hearthe same things....hell, it even seemed like Lunda had some sort of insight into it...but she also didn't elaborate.

And lastly, if it's there for "stufy", that still doesn't tell us if the Ministry created a "death portal" or if they found it and have been trying to figure it out....if so, musta sucked for the guy who tested it first:

"OK Fred, step through and tell us what you see...........

.........Fred?


.............Fred???


...................................Fred?????


DAMN!

Right! Who wants to go next?"

Man that was funny!

Yay I'm so proud that I started this my boards always get shut down

I think its kinda like your in limbo your not dead but your not alive its like there just waiting for something but I like the idea of a patronus going through there


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  #43  
Old December 12th, 2005, 9:38 am
black_cat  Female.gif black_cat is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chabichou
I believe the veil is a direct gateway to the world of the dead. The voices heard behind the veil are not only those of people who've been through the veil but everyone else who's dead too.

I agree to this..... And I think, like the thestrals, only those people who have witnessed death can hear the voices from the veil. Luna was also able to hear the voices ( and see the thestrals) because, i think, she has experienced the pain of losing someone to death. This is the reason why harry was able to hear the v0ices from the other side of the veil.


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  #44  
Old December 20th, 2005, 11:02 am
Meeeeeehman1010  Male.gif Meeeeeehman1010 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

But how come Ginny was 'transfixed' with the veil but Ron was not?


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  #45  
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:15 pm
Languish  Female.gif Languish is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeeeeehman1010
But how come Ginny was 'transfixed' with the veil but Ron was not?
hmmm...interesting. the only thing i can think of is that she's had the near-death-and-very-dark-magic-experience of being possessed by one of Voldemort's Horcurxes.


  #46  
Old December 20th, 2005, 6:02 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Languish, I'm sure that's it. She very nearly died at Voldemort's hands--as has Harry (who is also entranced with it). Luna's mother died, apparently in Luna's presence. We aren't aware that Harry or Hermione have had that kind of experience or have been close to anyone who died at that point.

And Harry thinks he hears Ron's voice from behind the Veil.


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  #47  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 6:32 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonsHP
I read it was a Lethifold. Could it be something like a amphitheatre for executions like muggles have gas chambers?
Other than that I have no idea...or care really.
Thats a good idea, but why would they kiil ppl in the DoM? Thats one thing to think about.
I hope Sirius comes back in some way, shape, or form.


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  #48  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 6:52 pm
mia305  Female.gif mia305 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

hi, i posted this on the Little HP Questions thread...wonder if anyone here can help... Was Sirius killed by the Avada Kedavra or the Veil? Or was it both? :-s And if he hadn't been Avada Kedavra-d, and had fallen through the Veil alive would the Veil have killed him?


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  #49  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 7:51 pm
bravesfan150  Male.gif bravesfan150 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonsHP
I read it was a Lethifold. Could it be something like a amphitheatre for executions like muggles have gas chambers?
Other than that I have no idea...or care really.
yeah, i kind of thought that it was a torture chamber when its effects were being described

Quote:
Originally Posted by mia305
hi, i posted this on the Little HP Questions thread...wonder if anyone here can help... Was Sirius killed by the Avada Kedavra or the Veil? Or was it both? :-s And if he hadn't been Avada Kedavra-d, and had fallen through the Veil alive would the Veil have killed him?
i was under the impression that she didnt use avada kedavra on him, but i could be wrong.


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  #50  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 10:36 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravesfan150
i was under the impression that she didnt use avada kedavra on him, but i could be wrong.
I was under the same impression, although the book doesn't actually state what color the final jet of light to hit Sirius was, I suppose I have assumed that it was the same as the previous one, which is why there would be no need to fully describe it, but that is somewhat speculative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by OotP American hardback pp. 805 and 806
Only one couple were still battling, apparenlty unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.
The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.
The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.
<snip>
It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hangin from the arch...
And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place.
I believe that it was the veil that killed him.

I thought that the room sounded a bit like an execution chamber when I first read it as well, but JKR as dispelled that idea
Quote:
MA: Was it used as an execution chamber or just studying?

JKR: No, it's just studying. The Department of Mysteries is all about studying. They study the mind, the universe, death…


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  #51  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 10:45 pm
pensievepeter  Male.gif pensievepeter is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by eye_screeeam
Two things bug me about this whole thing. One, is the room itself. Why does it have stadium seating? Someone suggested that unspeakables were hoping to communicate with the dead. perhaps its the magical equivalent of the electric chair, killing people without tearing your soul apart, authorized violence.
second thing, why do people know about this veil? is it because people know it exists but hvae no idea what it is?
i know i said 2questions, but ill ask a third, how did it get there? seems like an ancient ruin or something, did they move it to a more secure premise? in my imagination, it reminded me of stargate the tvshow/movie (then again I used to pronounce hermione "hermy-own" before she corrected krum in GOF)
I think your quite right on the thought that that is what the veil is. Note the fact that Dumbledore calls the room the archway is in "The Death Chamber" and that the term death chamber is reserved for the room in prisons where executions are performed, and performed so people related to the crime and trial are able to view.

As to the theory on how it came to exist, I think it was built by someone, and I'm placing my money on the same people built Stonehenge, since it sounds so very similiar to the arches there.


  #52  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 10:57 pm
padfootandme  Female.gif padfootandme is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I just don't get the whole veil thing. I think that Sirius is, I guess, in the veil or something. That doesn't even make sense to me, but I just don't see how falling past it, or through it, or on it, could kill someone. But then N.H. Nick said that he died and wouldn't become a ghost, and Lupin and Dumbledore said he died too. But then what was with the voices Harry and Luna heard? Does that relate to the whole thestral thing where you have to have seen death to see the thestrals, but in this case hear the voices of... the dead? Hopefully JKR talks about it in more detail in book 7!


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  #53  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 11:04 pm
preppyhater  Male.gif preppyhater is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLIMPY
I was under the same impression, although the book doesn't actually state what color the final jet of light to hit Sirius was, I suppose I have assumed that it was the same as the previous one, which is why there would be no need to fully describe it, but that is somewhat speculative.



I believe that it was the veil that killed him.

I thought that the room sounded a bit like an execution chamber when I first read it as well, but JKR as dispelled that idea
Umm I believe the spell casted was red. It couldn't have been Avada Kedavra for one thing because he would have just crumpled and died because the only person we know to have flown backwards was dumbledore but alas for another thread. i found the quote "Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light he was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest" I assumed that since they said second jet that it would have held the same colour as the first.


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  #54  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 11:18 pm
pensievepeter  Male.gif pensievepeter is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

The beam of red light is most likely a Stupefy curse. There is a possiblity that it was a Dark hex or curse, but that is fairly remote.

Maybe the arch acts as a net almost, seperating the soul from the Body and the destroying the body.


  #55  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 11:27 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by black_cat
And I think, like the thestrals, only those people who have witnessed death can hear the voices from the veil. Luna was also able to hear the voices ( and see the thestrals) because, i think, she has experienced the pain of losing someone to death. This is the reason why harry was able to hear the v0ices from the other side of the veil.
I once had a theory about why certain people could hear the voices from the veil, which I believe to be a kind of portal that connects this world with the world of the dead:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reading rereading the scene in OotP, I believe that each person’s reaction to the veil seems to be a reflection of their feelings toward death. First of all, here’s a summary of each character’s reactions to the veil.

Hermione:
  • She is the first one to sense that the veil was dangerous. As they enter the room, she says, “Careful!” right away.
  • Hermione is not entranced by the veil and definitely can’t hear the voices because she says, “Nobody’s talking, Harry!”
  • Hermione tries to pull Harry away from the veil. Again, she is really alerted to the danger the veil holds because she says, “This isn’t right, Harry, come on, let’s go. …”, and also “whatever it was, it was dangerous”. Overall, Hermione is described as sounding much more afraid of the veil then she did of the floating brains.
Harry:
  • It’s interesting how Harry thinks it’s Sirius who’s moving the veil from behind, considering Sirius’ fate. At first, he doesn’t hear the voices.
  • In contrast to Hermione’s frightened reaction, Harry sees beauty in the veil, and actually has a strong urge to walk through it.
  • Harry begins to hear the voices that sound like “faint whispering, murmuring noises coming from the other side of the veil.”
  • The thought of Sirius, “captured, bound, and tortured” is the only thing that finally brings Harry out of his trance.
Ron:
  • He wasn’t entranced by the veil at all. He takes Neville’s arm to lead him away while Hermione takes Ginny’s.
    Ginny and Neville:
  • The only thing we know is that both were entranced by the veil and could not hear the voices because they didn’t respond when Harry asked if anyone else could hear what he was hearing.
Luna:
  • She was entranced by the veil and could hear the voices: she says, “I can hear them too. … There are people in there!” She also wasn’t afraid of the veil.
After looking at this information, we can characterize each of their reactions to the veil in a general way (also, whether or not they can see thestrals):

Hermione: afraid and cautious; can’t see thestrals
Harry: entranced, heard voices, saw beauty in the veil; can see thestrals
Ron: not affected; can’t see thestrals
Ginny: entranced; can’t see thestrals
Neville: entranced; can see thestrals
Luna: entranced, heard voices; can see thestrals

Something else I found interesting to note was that the deaths witnessed by Luna and Harry- the only two people who could hear the voices- were known to be untimely deaths. Harry witnessed Cedric’s murder by Voldemort, while Luna saw her mother die in an experiment gone wrong. Therefore, I wonder whether or not witnessing someone die suddenly or unexpectedly at a time when they were not ready allows a person to hear the voices behind the veil. We really don’t know about Neville’s granddad: he may have died of old age, but this isn’t known for sure, so it’s possible the reason Neville couldn’t hear the voices is because his grandfather died of natural causes.

So taking all of this into account, I think that each individual’s reaction to the veil mirrored their feelings and understanding of death. For Hermione, I don’t believe she was necessarily afraid of death, but I do think she was afraid of the unknown. That she was not entranced by the veil but instead got strong negative vibes from it is indicative of her lack of understanding about death, coupled with her strong dislike (and perhaps fear) of things she doesn’t understand by reading about them (which is an extension of her bookish nature).

Luna’s and Harry’s reactions to the veil both indicate a certain understanding of death and a kind of acceptance of it. With Harry however, the fact that he finds the veil beautiful in a way seems to mirror his desire to die later on when Voldemort possesses him. Also, I think it’s clear that Harry doesn’t fear death, and it’s likely Luna doesn’t either.

Ron’s reaction to the veil is pretty much characterized as a lack of reaction- he doesn’t seem to be affected by it at all, negatively or otherwise. I think this is perhaps due to a lack of understanding of death, as well as the fact that he doesn’t seem to particularly fear what he doesn’t understand and can’t learn about from reading, like Hermione.

For Ginny, she has had a near-death experience that was rather traumatizing, thus, she has a certain understanding of death. But she has not actually seen anyone die (I tend to believe that she actually couldn’t see the thestrals and was not pretending not to see them). Therefore, she was entranced by the veil but could not hear the voices. Neville’s reaction is basically the same as Ginny’s. The only difference between them is that Neville saw his grandfather die, probably of natural causes, thus he couldn’t hear the voices because his granddad’s death wasn’t unexpected or untimely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested to know what you think of these ideas. In any case I really hope JKR explains what makes people hear the voices and/or become entranced by the veil.


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  #56  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 11:33 pm
Hardyhardnut  Male.gif Hardyhardnut is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by preppyhater
Umm I believe the spell casted was red. It couldn't have been Avada Kedavra for one thing because he would have just crumpled and died because the only person we know to have flown backwards was dumbledore but alas for another thread. i found the quote "Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light he was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest" I assumed that since they said second jet that it would have held the same colour as the first.
Yeah, this is a really good point. The veil is so intriguing, and it is so annoying to think that this will probably be one of the things that JK leaves to our imaginations. I also conclude that the spell would have probably been Stupefyl possibly some tiny qualms form Bella on the thought of killing her cousin. The interpretation I got from the book was that whenever somebody died, their soul (if they chose to go on) would proceed through the veil. Luna says later on, "You heard them, just behind the veil didn't you?" This description carries the same connotations as with the thestrals: the only people that could hear the whispering were the people who had seen death. Therefore, is it possible JK is trying to lead us to believe that the people whispering from the "other side" are heard only by those who have seen death?


  #57  
Old January 10th, 2006, 4:38 am
Stickz90210  Male.gif Stickz90210 is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

I was reading an editorial in the underground lake and the writer i forgot his name mentioned something about harry pushing voldemort into the veil to kill him or not as a passing comment and i started thinking what would happen to voldemort if he fell into the veil? we know it kills you but he has horcruxes and as far as we know there is no way out and then i thought about the voices that harry hears when he is near enough to it, then i suddenly thought what if the voices are sort of voldemorts predecessors in the dark arts? All the other dark lords who had horcruxes and such what if that is how the ministry handled them?

lets say that maybe a thousand years ago or so the ministry had trouble with a wizard/witch who had a horcrux and the wizard/witch refused to reveal the location for obvious reasons. what would the ministry do with them? if they kept them in jail the would eventually escape considering that they have forever to wait and then they will be sic'd on the world once more and might be unstoppable.
then i thought of Grindelwald and maybe he had horruxes and then i remembered dumbledores chocolate frog card and how it specifically says that dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. what if this is a way for harry to defeat voldemort it would fall into the terms of the prophesy because if voldemort fell in he wouldnt technically die so harrys soul would be untarnished but he would be forever defeated. and if he pushed him it would be at harrys hands

the only thing i dont understand is why harry and luna could hear it.


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Last edited by Stickz90210; January 10th, 2006 at 4:42 am.
  #58  
Old January 10th, 2006, 5:36 am
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan
I once had a theory about why certain people could hear the voices from the veil, which I believe to be a kind of portal that connects this world with the world of the dead:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reading rereading the scene in OotP, I believe that each person’s reaction to the veil seems to be a reflection of their feelings toward death. First of all, here’s a summary of each character’s reactions to the veil.

Hermione:
  • She is the first one to sense that the veil was dangerous. As they enter the room, she says, “Careful!” right away.
  • Hermione is not entranced by the veil and definitely can’t hear the voices because she says, “Nobody’s talking, Harry!”
  • Hermione tries to pull Harry away from the veil. Again, she is really alerted to the danger the veil holds because she says, “This isn’t right, Harry, come on, let’s go. …”, and also “whatever it was, it was dangerous”. Overall, Hermione is described as sounding much more afraid of the veil then she did of the floating brains.
Harry:
  • It’s interesting how Harry thinks it’s Sirius who’s moving the veil from behind, considering Sirius’ fate. At first, he doesn’t hear the voices.
  • In contrast to Hermione’s frightened reaction, Harry sees beauty in the veil, and actually has a strong urge to walk through it.
  • Harry begins to hear the voices that sound like “faint whispering, murmuring noises coming from the other side of the veil.”
  • The thought of Sirius, “captured, bound, and tortured” is the only thing that finally brings Harry out of his trance.
Ron:
  • He wasn’t entranced by the veil at all. He takes Neville’s arm to lead him away while Hermione takes Ginny’s.
    Ginny and Neville:
  • The only thing we know is that both were entranced by the veil and could not hear the voices because they didn’t respond when Harry asked if anyone else could hear what he was hearing.
Luna:
  • She was entranced by the veil and could hear the voices: she says, “I can hear them too. … There are people in there!” She also wasn’t afraid of the veil.
After looking at this information, we can characterize each of their reactions to the veil in a general way (also, whether or not they can see thestrals):

Hermione: afraid and cautious; can’t see thestrals
Harry: entranced, heard voices, saw beauty in the veil; can see thestrals
Ron: not affected; can’t see thestrals
Ginny: entranced; can’t see thestrals
Neville: entranced; can see thestrals
Luna: entranced, heard voices; can see thestrals

Something else I found interesting to note was that the deaths witnessed by Luna and Harry- the only two people who could hear the voices- were known to be untimely deaths. Harry witnessed Cedric’s murder by Voldemort, while Luna saw her mother die in an experiment gone wrong. Therefore, I wonder whether or not witnessing someone die suddenly or unexpectedly at a time when they were not ready allows a person to hear the voices behind the veil. We really don’t know about Neville’s granddad: he may have died of old age, but this isn’t known for sure, so it’s possible the reason Neville couldn’t hear the voices is because his grandfather died of natural causes.

So taking all of this into account, I think that each individual’s reaction to the veil mirrored their feelings and understanding of death. For Hermione, I don’t believe she was necessarily afraid of death, but I do think she was afraid of the unknown. That she was not entranced by the veil but instead got strong negative vibes from it is indicative of her lack of understanding about death, coupled with her strong dislike (and perhaps fear) of things she doesn’t understand by reading about them (which is an extension of her bookish nature).

Luna’s and Harry’s reactions to the veil both indicate a certain understanding of death and a kind of acceptance of it. With Harry however, the fact that he finds the veil beautiful in a way seems to mirror his desire to die later on when Voldemort possesses him. Also, I think it’s clear that Harry doesn’t fear death, and it’s likely Luna doesn’t either.

Ron’s reaction to the veil is pretty much characterized as a lack of reaction- he doesn’t seem to be affected by it at all, negatively or otherwise. I think this is perhaps due to a lack of understanding of death, as well as the fact that he doesn’t seem to particularly fear what he doesn’t understand and can’t learn about from reading, like Hermione.

For Ginny, she has had a near-death experience that was rather traumatizing, thus, she has a certain understanding of death. But she has not actually seen anyone die (I tend to believe that she actually couldn’t see the thestrals and was not pretending not to see them). Therefore, she was entranced by the veil but could not hear the voices. Neville’s reaction is basically the same as Ginny’s. The only difference between them is that Neville saw his grandfather die, probably of natural causes, thus he couldn’t hear the voices because his granddad’s death wasn’t unexpected or untimely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested to know what you think of these ideas. In any case I really hope JKR explains what makes people hear the voices and/or become entranced by the veil.

I think that's an excellent analysis! Bravo!



  #59  
Old January 10th, 2006, 11:51 am
desiangel desiangel is offline
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Yeah my sentiments exactly! That does make a lot of sense. Initially i thought that Luna, Harry, Ginny and Neville probably all share something commom which they might not even be aware off. But this theory makes more sense as it is based on thoughts and emotions rather than something someone saw or did.
And back to the point of Sirius's death. Think it was the veil and not bellatrix which killed him. Everyone present (except for the kids) seemed to have given up on saving sirius as soon as they saw him fall through the veil. So am assuming that the veil serves some sort of dark purpose and it definitely has a lot of importance and will most probably come back in the final book. I read somewhere that JK said sirius's death has a deeper meaning to it and there's a definite reason as to why he had to die. I have this gut feeling that the final encounter between voldemort and harry will culminate at the MOM.


  #60  
Old January 10th, 2006, 12:47 pm
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Re: Questions about the Veil

Is it possible that Hermione did hear the voices but was afraid to admit it? or maybe she heard them and didn't want Harry know so that she doesn't encourage him to progress. It's strange how she sensed all that danger... seemed as though she knew all about the veil! (Even Luna doesn't tell him she's hearing the voices at first... he only gets to know just before they're leaving)

[I pitied Luna bdw in that scene where she's running around looking for her stuff. She talks as if she's on the verge of crying... touching]


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Last edited by Manti; January 10th, 2006 at 1:07 pm.
 
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